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Oh, I think it is costed out very nicely. And indeed it tempting to use. You could then drop Crones and Flyrants from your list. As I said - in the right list I love it.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 felixcat wrote:

My problem with the redoubt in my list is cost. I really just want a comms relay and a place to put some backfield troops safely. So a bastion fits my needs better. And Flyrants indeed have issues. The fact is the whole Nids codex has issues, lol. We want to believe the codex is competitive but until I see it do well at any major event I'll reserve judgement. The codex has a lot of holes. A Redoubt is not filling them all.

The cost put me off at first too, but when you compare the firepower you get to imperial equivalents along with the bunker itself, it's not a bad deal. Being able to upgrade the BS and add an additional quad gun, as well as swap the lascannons out for battle cannons make me really want to try this out. Obviously it's all paper hammer for me at this point but i think i'll give it a whirl as soon as I get the model. Remember, for just under 300 points you are getting:

A Twin linked, 2 shot lascannon at BS3 with skyfire/interceptor
A Twin linked 4 shot Autocannon at BS3 with skyfire/interceptor
1 BS3 battle cannon
AV14 bunker that allows 6 models to fire
LOS blocking terrain piece

If i were taking a space marine army or IG army that included units firing those weapons listed, as well as an AV 14 model (land raider or leman russ) I would be investing well over 300 points. Add in the twin-linked and skyfire, i just see it having good potential. Yes, drop-melta and Bright/Dark Lance spam will certainly be issues - but that can be mitigated by placing the bunker behind another piece of terrain to grant it cover. We will see - currently i'm hopefully optimistic.

I thought automated weapons were BS2?

There's an upgrade to make it BS3.

 ductvader wrote:

I thought automated weapons were BS2?

Magos Machine Spirit upgrade (30 points) makes them BS3. Super worth it in my opinion.

Got a list for you guys.

HQ
-Swarmlord
---3 Tyrant Guard

TROOP
-Tervigon
-Tervigon (Miasma Cannon, Cluster Spines)
-30 Termagants
-30 Termagants

ELITE
-Venomthrope
-Venomthrope

HEAVY
-Exocrine
-Tyrannofex (Regneration, Dessicator Larvae)
-2 Carnifexes (TL Deathspitters, Stranglethorn Cannon)

1850/1850

Basically, it's a new twist on some of my old lists.

Personally, I've always had this "Fliers...what do bugs care about fliers?" approach to the game that has never really backlashed on me.

EDIT: I know Synapse is a bit tight...

 ductvader wrote:
Got a list for you guys.

HQ
-Swarmlord
---3 Tyrant Guard

TROOP
-Tervigon
-Tervigon (Miasma Cannon, Cluster Spines)
-30 Termagants
-30 Termagants

ELITE
-Venomthrope
-Venomthrope

HEAVY
-Exocrine
-Tyrannofex (Regneration, Dessicator Larvae)
-2 Carnifexes (TL Deathspitters, Stranglethorn Cannon)

1850/1850

Basically, it's a new twist on some of my old lists.

Personally, I've always had this "Fliers...what do bugs care about fliers?" approach to the game that has never really backlashed on me.

EDIT: I know Synapse is a bit tight...

I would consider dropping a single tyrant guard on the swarmlord and add a zoanthrope for some redundancy for synapse as well as an additional chance to roll onslaught or catalyst. The miasma cannon is good, but you can get s9 ap4 with a venom cannon on the carnifexen. If you drop it from the tervigon that would give you the points necessary to upgrade the 2 fexen to have HVCs. Other than that I think the list looks fine - not many flyers will effect you too much, although a few storm talons or dakka jets could ruin swarmlord's day after a few turns of shooting. Give it a whirl and see how it goes.

It kind of looks like it will get shot to pieces walking across the table against the natural Tyranid threat lists.

 Iechine wrote:
It kind of looks like it will get shot to pieces walking across the table against the natural Tyranid threat lists.

Tyranids really need to have 2 types of lists in mind when composing their armies:

List A.) Will i be likely to face Tau/Eldar? If yes i need deep strikers, outflankers, and flyers - all super fast elements or i stand no chance. Dark eldar fits this description too.

List B.) Will i be likely to face ANYTHING ELSE? If yes, just take a list you like - odds are the T6 and 3+ save along with catalyst can keep you alive long enough to matter.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
It kind of looks like it will get shot to pieces walking across the table against the natural Tyranid threat lists.

Tyranids really need to have 2 types of lists in mind when composing their armies:

List A.) Will i be likely to face Tau/Eldar? If yes i need deep strikers, outflankers, and flyers - all super fast elements or i stand no chance. Dark eldar fits this description too.

List B.) Will i be likely to face ANYTHING ELSE? If yes, just take a list you like - odds are the T6 and 3+ save along with catalyst can keep you alive long enough to matter.

My meta...usually:

1 Tau
0 Eldar
1 CSM
2 Ultramarines
2 DA Bikes
1 Necron (non flier)
1 Chaos Daemons (non flier)
2 GK
1 IG
1 DE (all raiders)
1 Ork
1 Tyranid

People around here don't really like to play an army that someone else is playing...makes it less "special" and fun



Also, I feel very "off" about shooting a 20pt small blast with a BS3 monster.

Swarmlord is too slow and too nerfed to make him viable for competitive use.
If you could give him fleet I would have a different stance.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Swarmlord is too slow and too nerfed to make him viable for competitive use.
If you could give him fleet I would have a different stance.

While he doesn't fit an aggressive role, i contend that he makes a great area-denial unit as well as support caster/unit buffer for the tyranid army. Nobody will come near your home/midfield objectives while he's nearby guarding them.

 ductvader wrote:


Personally, I've always had this "Fliers...what do bugs care about fliers?" approach to the game that has never really backlashed on me.

It always seems to bite me. Played a wraithwing where all 4 NS came in top of t2 and pretty much melted my army off the table... combine that with 3 ABs... 7 tesla destructors... lots of 6's = I just had to laugh. I think mostly it is the dice gods paying me back for playing my wraithwing against others. I've had simlar issues with 3 stormtalons coming in at once.. multiple storm ravens coming in at once. I have since added the redoubt to my lists for this very reason. Though, I have been thinking about exchanging that for a bastion with lictor up top manning a quad gun..

 Roci wrote:

 ductvader wrote:


Personally, I've always had this "Fliers...what do bugs care about fliers?" approach to the game that has never really backlashed on me.

It always seems to bite me. Played a wraithwing where all 4 NS came in top of t2 and pretty much melted my army off the table... combine that with 3 ABs... 7 tesla destructors... lots of 6's = I just had to laugh. I think mostly it is the dice gods paying me back for playing my wraithwing against others. I've had simlar issues with 3 stormtalons coming in at once.. multiple storm ravens coming in at once. I have since added the redoubt to my lists for this very reason. Though, I have been thinking about exchanging that for a bastion with lictor up top manning a quad gun..

Stronghold Assault updated the rules so you can fire it from inside the attached building...let the venom or zoey or warriors shoot it.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Swarmlord is too slow and too nerfed to make him viable for competitive use.
If you could give him fleet I would have a different stance.

You can always give the Tyrant Guard Adrenal Glangs, which will make the unit Fleeting.

 ductvader wrote:

 Roci wrote:

 ductvader wrote:


Personally, I've always had this "Fliers...what do bugs care about fliers?" approach to the game that has never really backlashed on me.

It always seems to bite me. Played a wraithwing where all 4 NS came in top of t2 and pretty much melted my army off the table... combine that with 3 ABs... 7 tesla destructors... lots of 6's = I just had to laugh. I think mostly it is the dice gods paying me back for playing my wraithwing against others. I've had simlar issues with 3 stormtalons coming in at once.. multiple storm ravens coming in at once. I have since added the redoubt to my lists for this very reason. Though, I have been thinking about exchanging that for a bastion with lictor up top manning a quad gun..

Stronghold Assault updated the rules so you can fire it from inside the attached building...let the venom or zoey or warriors shoot it.

Or pay 30 points for the Magos spirit and let it auto-fire at the same BS3 they would give it. (zoeys should be shooting warp lance from the fire points)

Eldercaveman wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Swarmlord is too slow and too nerfed to make him viable for competitive use.
If you could give him fleet I would have a different stance.

You can always give the Tyrant Guard Adrenal Glangs, which will make the unit Fleeting.

Re-read Fleet.

Eldercaveman wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Swarmlord is too slow and too nerfed to make him viable for competitive use.
If you could give him fleet I would have a different stance.

You can always give the Tyrant Guard Adrenal Glangs, which will make the unit Fleeting.

As Swarmy doesn't have fleet, I don't believe that works...fleet doesn't confer to a unit.

I am...almost...certain.

I fall under the Type A: Fast mobility type.

I also like the firestorm redoubt so I don't have to worry about AA and it makes a nice place to stick a brood of 3 biovores so I don't need to spend the points on a backfield babysitter.

rigeld2 wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Swarmlord is too slow and too nerfed to make him viable for competitive use.
If you could give him fleet I would have a different stance.

You can always give the Tyrant Guard Adrenal Glangs, which will make the unit Fleeting.

Re-read Fleet.

It's been a long day.

Eldercaveman wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Swarmlord is too slow and too nerfed to make him viable for competitive use.
If you could give him fleet I would have a different stance.

You can always give the Tyrant Guard Adrenal Glangs, which will make the unit Fleeting.

Re-read Fleet.

It's been a long day.

No problem - just making sure people don't plan tactics on incorrect rules understandings.
for trying to help.

 Lansirill wrote:
I'm liking the idea of 5-man Genestealer squads to grab objectives; at least a pair to stick in reserves and grab the one or two that are in my backfield. 70 points for a scoring unit isn't awful, they can go to ground to grab a good cover save, and they're able to (potentially) wound most of the things in the game which gives some utility.

I'm also liking Trygon Primes. Big, ugly, and synapse where you want it. Maybe not *when* you want it, but being able to pop some synapse up where you're heading can help alleviate the need to stay bubbled up around a synapse node. They're non-scoring, but I think I like them better than a Tervigon for similar points.

Still in the air between the Harpy and Crone, but I think the Drool Cannon might be making me lean towards the Crone.

I'm thinking of starting out with a dakka flyrant, 60 Termagants, 30 Gargoyles, and a Trygon Prime as a core list and then playing around with other options from the codex to see what I really like. I figure dropping 90 bodies on the board for my opponent to deal with isn't a bad way to start. Heck, if I give the Termagants poison they're even a threat instead of merely a nuisance (of course that makes the cost jump from 420 to 540, but it may be worth it.)

For what its worth, I have been building 10-12 Devourer Gants into every unit I take of them, for essentially the same purpose as your tacking Toxin Sacs. For the points, you might be taking the smarter option, honestly.

After some in-house testing, I am very excited to try this list out. Need to buy the Harpy and some warriors next week.

Flyrant w/ HVC, HC, Reaper of Obliterax
Flyrant w/ HVC, Toxin Sacs, Lashwhip/bonesword
Venomthrope
2x10 Termagant w/spike rifles
6 Warriors outflanking w/4 deathspitters, two lashwhip/bone
Harpy
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Carnifex x2 w/HVC and Devourer
Mawloc
Trygon

I had some fun with this proxied. Tyrants act as headhunters, buffing and providing synapse until they are able to get in for a kill. The shred rule makes the Reaper Tyrant particularly effective and Wraithknight killing, which in my household is soon to be a large concern of mine. The other tyrant has toxin sacs to provide a somewhat same effect on T6 and below models.

The warrior group I'm not 100% sold on, probably just 1 will have LWBS, but if they are able to assault they are nasty. A decidedly non swarmy list, this would be a heavy hitting, hyper aggressive force. Fun to play.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Swarmlord is too slow and too nerfed to make him viable for competitive use.
If you could give him fleet I would have a different stance.

While he doesn't fit an aggressive role, i contend that he makes a great area-denial unit as well as support caster/unit buffer for the tyranid army. Nobody will come near your home/midfield objectives while he's nearby guarding them.

Yeah but then thats 285 points you arent charging into your enemies face. which is a massive dent to your army. I'm not suggesting he has no value, just too expensive for what he brings.

And doesn't have fleet but Tyrant Guard can... grrrr gw.

 L0rdF1end wrote:

And doesn't have fleet but Tyrant Guard can... grrrr gw.

Yeah, more amazing GW design. "He's the ultimate evolved killer... he evolved to be slower than the rest of his army so that by the time he gets to the enemy there is nothing left to kill... er..."

So speaking as an outward observer, I've been giving the book some thought and would like to throw in my opinions regarding Troops selection:

Scoring is only relevant in turns 5 or later. Therefore, Scoring units are worthless if you cannot guarantee they will be alive and controllable late into the game. This is a very simply truth to the army: If your Scoring units are dead, you cannot claim the objectives.
Tyranids have an unfortunate complication in that your Troops are typically the ones that need Synapse the most. However in keeping with the first point, Scoring units are worthless if *either* themselves, or the supporting Synapse units, are killed before Turn 5.
This presents a rather larger problem: Termagants and Tervigons are durable, excellent Scoring units by other armies qualities. However in practice, the opponent has 5 Turns to kill only the Tervigon and the whole thing falls apart. Any sense of durability is lost when your plan is 6 wounds away from being completely out of your control. Similarly your Flyrants might be Synapse, but they are also a massive headache that demands attention and I do not think they can be counted on to not only be alive by Turn 5, but also to be in the right place to provide Synapse. Essentially their job is already so demanding that pulling them back to play babysitter is a limitation on the unit that should be minimised.

Therefore, if a Scoring unit requires Synapse to be useful, it can probably be discounted as a bad option.
Exactly how functional a unit is without Synapse is therefore a result of it's Instinctive Behaviour:
- Anything with Lurk can be struck off. A 50% chance of Falling Back is completely unacceptable and will lose you matches. If a Lurking unit cannot be counted on to hold the objective to the last, you are entrusting your plan to a coin flip.
- Hunt would be absolutely fine for Scoring units, except there are none. A shame because it's absolutely perfect.
- Feed appears to be bad, but in truth it is only a concern if the unit is actually threatened by the hits it produces. Unfortunately if the unit is threatened, then you can expect your Scoring unit to pull itself apart.

Based on the above, our Scoring units:
Termagants- Big numbers, low costs and reasonable speeds, but utterly dependant on Synapse. I think that with Tervigons plummeting in utility and the needs of Flyrants to get killing, this is an unacceptable limitation to the unit.
Tervigon- Big model, big costs and far more likely to kill his mates. If you assume he spawns an average number of Termagants in his lifetime, include the Gaunts he needs to become a Troop, and also consider that any Gaunts he is holding together are liable to explode, and I think he is simply too expensive for the result. He is reliable, but he also has a massive target painted on his face and a lot of turns to kill him in before the Scoring is relevant.
Hormagaunts- Feed is simply devastating to the unit. There is no other real way to do it, you cannot hold an objective when it is defended by T3 models that halve in number every turn.
Rippers- I know they are not a Scoring unit, I just wanted to prove a point. If Swarms were Scoring, I think Rippers would be one of the best units in the army. Feed doesn't matter when you have the Wounds to soak them up and the unit can be counted on to remain in place for a cheap cost.
Genestealers- No Instinctive Behaviour, no Synapse dependance and an entry cost similar to a lot of other armies. While it might seem a tragedy to relegate the legendary Genestealers to minimal Scoring bodies, they are good for the job. It should also be noted that Infiltrate is arguably worthless in this role since you have 5 Turns to get where you need.
Warriors- No Instinctive Behaviour, actually provide Synapse, and have more Wounds. Unfortunately more expensive as a base unit and make for larger targets.

The root point of this argument is that when it comes to Scoring, you don't want Gaunts because they are utterly dependant on another model surviving to the very end and hoping it has nothing better to do with its life.
Similarly, Tervigon might be durable but I do not think they are end-game durable, and they come in at such a massive price that they cannot be relegated to sacrificial Scoring.

Therefore, I propose that the Scoring requirements be taken up by 5-man units of Genestealers, no upgrades or Broodlords, and invest the actual points into units that can pose a threat and take names. You cannot afford to hold objectives with units slaved to the survival of another, especially when that unit is a big, juicy bag of points that is just begging to be killed. In the event that you are:
a) Under-points after writing the list
b) In need of some extra Synapse
Then a handful of 70pt Genestealers can become 90pt Warriors.

By saving points on your Scoring section and simply accepting that your army is divided into units that will fight, and units that will pitch a tent and sing campfire songs while huddled into a crater, you can actually get some decent units onto the field and work towards winning rather than fighting to keep your own weaknesses from spilling out.
This concept can then be expanded on: If you don't need Synapse to protect your Scoring bodies, do you need it at all?
By sticking to Hunting units, faster elements to keep up with Flyrants, or Feeders who straight up don't care about the self-harm, you can basically say 'Screw this' to the Synapse game and spend everything on actually getting stuff done.

Exocrine, Tyrannofex and Harpies straight up do not care. Trygons, Mawlocs and Crones are similarly unaffected, as are solo Screamer-Killer Carnifexes.
You can build an army that will function on no- or minimal-Synapse, and in the process save fistfuls of points.

For a cross-Codex comparison it is probably closest to Chaos Marines, where the humble Cultists is king because you can buy enough Heldrakes, Obliterators and Daemon Princes that you do not care that your Scoring presence consists of naked T3. By giving him enough threats that demand a response, and that are independently threatening, you protect your minimal investment by demanding the guns are focussed elsewhere.

Just some outsider thoughts…


TL;DR
- Gaunts and Tervigons are not reliable and too expensive, respectively
- Invest minimal points into Scoring units that can be relied upon to sit still
- Spend the saved points on Nidzilla
- Rely on your massed monsters being angry enough that minimal effort can be spent removing your Scoring dudes.

Very well presented thoughts. Exalted!

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Very well presented thoughts. Exalted!

And a great reason to take manufactorum stealers...while there's an argument on whether they score...no one I play would attempt to say they don't

See I'd go completely the other way regarding Manufactorum 'Stealers because by Infiltrating that close, all you are saying is 'Here is 25% of my entire Scoring capability, please kill it before my actual threats get here'.
The whole point is that 5 Genestealers are cheap and low-profile so that the enemy cannot dedicate the effort to remove them, and instead must work with the extra monster you just bought by saving the points.

As a demonstration of the actual result, say for a 1500pt game: My usual thoughts are that you should take a Scoring unit for every 500pts, plus one for luck. Therefore we want 4 units for a game this size.
4 units of 5 Genestealers comes to 280pts. You'd therefore have 1220pts to spend on nothing other than violently stabby monsters without concerns for Synapse or Scoring utility at all.
Take your preferred balance of 3 between Exocrines, Tyrannofex, Mawlocs or *lone* Brainleech-Fexes. Take 2 Flyrants, then a Crone or a Harpy, and then some Tyrant Guard/Gargoyles/Spore Mines to polish. Or take a solitary Flyrant and then 3 other FA fliers. Find yourself with a spare 20pts? Some of those Genestealers are now Warriors, enjoy the extra wound counters.
You'd have 6-7 Monstrous Creatures at 1500pts. Good monstrous Creatures, not just spammed Carnifex.

The actual game would then be keeping your Genestealers safely in Reserve, maybe in Outflank, and just take the enemy with your competent elements.

Very well thought out indeed. There is no question that IB restricts what we do.

- Tervigon - I do like to use one. You can wait to spawn and see how it goes, He can be protected - I use Venomthropes in my lists and hide him behind a T-fex. Taking just one is not bad.
- Termagants can be good - the thirty I need for my Tervigon are with a Prime and you can have tdevourers on them as well if you want more of a threat. There is no better way to protect your Prime - thirty ablative wounds are awesome.
- Warriors are not bad at all. I can easily stick a squad of three on top a Firestorm Redoubt and have backfield scoring when needed.
- Gloomfang and others have found that toxic Rippers pose a real threat. It is not my style odf list but I see how it can work.

here is a list using units you discount at only 1500 points:

1500 Leaper Nids

HQ
Tyranid Prime - 175
Lash Whip/Bonesword
Adrenal Glands
Toxin Sacs
Scytals
Flesh Hooks

Deathleaper - 130

Troops
30x Temagants - 120

Tervigon - 235
Electroshock Grubs
Regen

3 Tyranid Warriors - 100
Barbed Strangler

Elite
Venomthrope - 45

Venomthrope - 45

Zoanthrope - 50

Fast
6 Spore Mine Clusters 30

Heavy
Tyranofex - 200
Acid Spray
Adrenal Glands
Shattershard Beetles

Mawloc - 140

Fortification
Firestorm Redoubt - 230
Magos Machine Spirit

Now I agree that you have to be careful with the Tervigon. But with good management he can spawn you a troop when you need it. I would not dismiss him so lightly.

Mozzamanx wrote:

TL;DR
- Gaunts and Tervigons are not reliable and too expensive, respectively
- Invest minimal points into Scoring units that can be relied upon to sit still
- Spend the saved points on Nidzilla
- Rely on your massed monsters being angry enough that minimal effort can be spent removing your Scoring dudes.

The only loop hole I see with this (well written) argument is that by taking more MC's you now have generated more synapse so that you can afford to spend 100pts on a swarm of 20 gants to rush up there in the face of the enemy. While a scoring unit yes, if their main point is to rush and distract then you're probably not counting on them to be a scoring unit, but they can be a denial unit and 20 gants can and will take out a small squad.

The other question I have is that does the theory then carry over to "Dont take Zoanthropes and Venomthropes" because they are more for synapse and support of the longevity of troops?