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I show:

An Endless Swarm consists of the following units:
• 3 Hormagaunt Broods
• 2 Termagant Broods
• 1 Tyranid Warrior Brood


Did it get updated?

 foto69man wrote:
I show:

An Endless Swarm consists of the following units:
• 3 Hormagaunt Broods
• 2 Termagant Broods
• 1 Tyranid Warrior Brood


Did it get updated?

Yep, it fooled me too...

I've been following this thread for a while and am yet to see any list that includes Hive Guard. What's the deal here? Are they not very good?

I quite like the idea of impaler cannons hitting the side armor of vehicles from 24" away. People will expose flanks of vehicles forgetting they ignore line of sight.

Also, T6 makes them seem quite durable.

Anyone used them with any success?

Raveners also never get a look-in. Seem like they'd be decent at clearing objectives in 7th when people seem to leave small weak units guarding them.

tag8833 wrote:

 foto69man wrote:
Next Sat I get to play in one of the biggest games(for me) of all time. 2800pts per player, 3v3. It will be Tyranids(me), Chaos Undivided, Blood Angles/IG VS Deathwing/IG, IG/Imperial Fists, and Tau/Farsight. Should be a blast with 3 Baneblades, 1 Warhound, 1 Tigershark, and my Harridan on the table.

My list is below, points scrubbed out to be safe, and minimized to not show full entries. Basically I am the meat/bait of our Army lol. Standard Dakka-Flyrants without E grubs, Crone, and Harridan will keep the airway clear...after killing that pesky Tigershark. The two allied detachments are Endless Swarm and Wrecker Node. Nothing says HI! like bringing back that huge swarm you just nuked...and my cranifexes all wailing on your tank. If you have any questions let me know and be glad to explain what and why I'm taking something.

P.S. I took the rippers cause everyone is talking about them




I will post up the battle report with pics after it goes down!

Living artillery is 3 units of HGaunts + 3 units of TGaunts + 1 unit of warriors. You only have 2 Units of TGaunts.

In before "this one says 2 broods" controversy!

*Edit, Deathleaper'd.

ictoabu wrote:
I've been following this thread for a while and am yet to see any list that includes Hive Guard. What's the deal here? Are they not very good?

I quite like the idea of impaler cannons hitting the side armor of vehicles from 24" away. People will expose flanks of vehicles forgetting they ignore line of sight.

Also, T6 makes them seem quite durable.

Anyone used them with any success?

Raveners also never get a look-in. Seem like they'd be decent at clearing objectives in 7th when people seem to leave small weak units guarding them.

The drop in BS to 3 from 4, combined with the increase in price by 5 ppm is a bit harsh, and those elites slots can easily go to lone Zoanthropes/Venomthropes.

That said, there are ways of making them work. T6 is nothing to sneeze at when you have lots of other T6 around, and ignoring line of sight (and cover) is awesome.I enjoy pairing them with my Living Artillery Node, ideally using them to crack open a transport and then wiping out whatever spills out with the Barbed Strangler/Spore Mines/Bioplasmic Cannon blasts.

They are also one of the easier units to run alongside the Swarmlord if you feel like taking him, as they nerf to their BS can be mitigated a little by giving them PE.

Finally, if you can get them Skyfire somehow, they become a fairly dangerous anti-flier turret.

I think Hive Guard are very overlooked, especially in 7th where transports are everywhere as is the improved jink.

How exactly do you give 1 skyfire? I never would as we have Crones and Flyrants being far better at that role, but how do you give them Skyfire I cant work it out

I prefer to use Hive Guard in Kill Teams- with a smaller board and plenty of terrain to hide behind they become very hard to deal with. Having one the highest toughness of Kill Team units doesn't hurt either. They do double duty wrecking vehicles and plinking away at models out of line of sight. AP4 is great- quite a few marine players take scouts so you always have a target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think Hive Guard are very overlooked, especially in 7th where transports are everywhere as is the improved jink.

How exactly do you give 1 skyfire? I never would as we have Crones and Flyrants being far better at that role, but how do you give them Skyfire I cant work it out

Doesn't their shock cannon have skyfire? I hardly look at it so I don't remember clearly.

 SHUPPET wrote:
How exactly do you give 1 skyfire? I never would as we have Crones and Flyrants being far better at that role, but how do you give them Skyfire I cant work it out

Mysterious objectives #4 I believe is the skyfire nexus. It is actually an extremely devastating thing to roll up now that everything counts as a scoring unit... I saw a game with one of our local 'nids where-in a Venom sitting on top of one just mowed down all his flying monsters.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Doesn't their shock cannon have skyfire? I hardly look at it so I don't remember clearly.

No, the Shock Cannon is basically Electroshock Grubs with a small blast replacing the flamer template.

 foto69man wrote:
I show:

An Endless Swarm consists of the following units:
• 3 Hormagaunt Broods
• 2 Termagant Broods
• 1 Tyranid Warrior Brood


Did it get updated?

If I recall they updated it the day it was release by a post to Facebook explaining that it was a misprint. I'll find a link to back this up in a bit.

ETA: Yep. Itunes had it right, Ebook had it wrong, they announced on facebook that the itunes version was right. You can find discussion of it here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/582449.page

ictoabu wrote:
I've been following this thread for a while and am yet to see any list that includes Hive Guard. What's the deal here? Are they not very good?

I quite like the idea of impaler cannons hitting the side armor of vehicles from 24" away. People will expose flanks of vehicles forgetting they ignore line of sight.

Also, T6 makes them seem quite durable.

Anyone used them with any success?

Raveners also never get a look-in. Seem like they'd be decent at clearing objectives in 7th when people seem to leave small weak units guarding them.

Hive Guard are exelent...but it's a slot usage thing. You only have 3 slots (usually) and Zoeys are "must have", and so are Venothropes...no room. Add in that Hive Guard cost more as well... If you run 2x CAD. Then they look like a viable choice. Raveners are a "love'em, or don't" unit some folks like them...I don't Its because of Synapse, they need it. And for the same general cost I can toss in Shrikes, who can also take a Cannon, and Flesh Hooks. I'd suggest running Proxies before you spend cash...

Looking up the endless swarm formation, it occurred to me that the change in Split Fire might make Bioblast Node a bit more attractive. It is a great way to run gobs of dakka-fexes.

Zoeys are far from a "must have" depending on your list, you can easily slot Hive Guard in the elites if you build your list around it.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Zoeys are far from a "must have" depending on your list, you can easily slot Hive Guard in the elites if you build your list around it.

On Average 3 Hive guard are going to do .5 HP to AV 14, 1 HP to AV 13, 1.5 HP to AV 12 . 2 HP to AV 11, 2.5 HP to AV 10. They are best employed against skimmers (Wave Serpents, Necron vehicles, Skyrays, Dark Eldar).

I don't think Zoeys are a fair comparison. I think Hive guard stack up against a Dakkafex w/ Adrenals (same points). On Average Dakkafex shooting does 0 to AV 14, 0 to AV 13, 1.5 to AV 12, 3 to AV 11, 4.5 to AV 10.

Hive guard do a little better against Heavy Armor, but Dakkafex does better against light armor. Hive guard a preferable if the Opponent is a skimmer and can jink.

However, where the Dakkafex emerges as the clear victor is in assault. It does 2 HP on average to AV 14, 2.78 to AV13, 3.56 to AV 12, 4.33 to AV 11, 4.67 to AV 10.

Hive Guard have a slightly longer range, and slightly more survivability, but the Dakkafex is a better vehicle popper. Unless you are expecting skimmers that is the way to go.

Thanks for the math.

I never said Zopes were a good comparison just that they could be dropped to make room in a list wanting HG, it was a response to the statement that they are a must have, when in reality they are a unit you need to think very hard about before including.

So those maths basically just say that HG either tie or seriously outshoot Carnifex against almost any vehicle in the game, other than some AV10 Side Armor as I think everything else has jink. They do it with 6 T6 W instead of 4, ignoring any natural cover as well, from an extra 6" range and can do it completely out of Line of sight. Worth mentioning that they still put 2 HP on a skimmer or Rhino in assault as well. They also don't take up a HS slot.

I think Carnifex is by far the better model. HG have their merits though especially if you don't have anymore Heavy slots open.

I never use hive guard or zoans anymore, waste of pts.

If i could get some elite slots i'd actually try pyrovores first. I've got a pyrovore conversion in mind that i would really like to try and if you play against orks they are actually useful. If only acid blood worked on ID and they costed a bit less...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Thanks for the math.

I never said Zopes were a good comparison just that they could be dropped to make room in a list wanting HG, it was a response to the statement that they are a must have, when in reality they are a unit you need to think very hard about before including.

So those maths basically just say that HG either tie or seriously outshoot Carnifex against almost any vehicle in the game, other than some AV10 Side Armor as I think everything else has jink. They do it with 6 T6 W instead of 4, ignoring any natural cover as well, from an extra 6" range and can do it completely out of Line of sight. Worth mentioning that they still put 2 HP on a skimmer or Rhino in assault as well. They also don't take up a HS slot.

I think Carnifex is by far the better model. HG have their merits though especially if you don't have anymore Heavy slots open.

This reminds me that i still owe you some in detail zoan math, so here it is:

3 zoans firing at bs4 would score the following hits:

3 hits 29.6% of the times
2 hits 44.4% of the times
1 hit 22.2% of the times
0 hits 3% of the times

Those hits would translate in:

3 penetrating hits 8.7% of the time
2 penetrating hits 32.8% of the time
1 penetrating hit 41% of the time

Sum them up and you'll see that you have an almost guaranted penetration against AV 14. Now for what those penetrating hits mean at AP2.

Chance to explode your target at least once 20.5%
Chance to immobilize your target at least once 20.5%
Chance to destroy the weapon of your target at least once 20.5%
Chance to stun your target at least once 20.5%
Chance to shake your target at least once 40.1%

Now, since this is now in percent form and no longer in average results you can take those numbers and multiply them by your successful manifesting chances and you'll get the exact results without approximations.

Hope you find them useful.

tag8833 wrote:

 foto69man wrote:
I show:

An Endless Swarm consists of the following units:
• 3 Hormagaunt Broods
• 2 Termagant Broods
• 1 Tyranid Warrior Brood


Did it get updated?

If I recall they updated it the day it was release by a post to Facebook explaining that it was a misprint. I'll find a link to back this up in a bit.

ETA: Yep. Itunes had it right, Ebook had it wrong, they announced on facebook that the itunes version was right. You can find discussion of it here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/582449.page

Thanks for that...I'm not an apple user...so only have the ebook, and must have missed the Dakka discussion. Oh well, I'm sure I can find an extra 80pts lying around. Thanks!!!

Ok, finally started on my battle report:


1850 BAO Practice - Sky Fleet Pandora Tyranids vs Farsight-bomb Tau



Will probably be completed tomorrow.

Ouch... That's a pretty sparse looking table there. I imagine the ability to jink will probably help keep the big bugs alive, but those poor Gargoyles are just going to be cannon fodder...

 Strat_N8 wrote:
Ouch... That's a pretty sparse looking table there. I imagine the ability to jink will probably help keep the big bugs alive, but those poor Gargoyles are just going to be cannon fodder...

My opponent does have some experience playing against Skyblight. My guess is that he will NOT try to finish off the gargoyles too early. As for jinking, his deathstar ignores cover due to the "buffsuit" bodyguard (they are also twin-linked and have Monster Hunter). The bomb is scary against our bugs.

When I originally got my new Tyranids codex, I fell in love with the Hive Guards. I like the models and I like guns that shoot around corners. As I was building a list almost from scratch, it looked like a no-brainer...

I don't have any, and it makes me sad. But it comes down to simple point conservation, synapse, and FOC issues. My over-1250 list includes a minimal Skyblight, so that leaves me tight on points and a bit light in synapse. Two Zoeys in solo packs, hiding behind terrain (I am modifying a Bastion to be suitably Tyranid converted that a Zoey can easily hide behind) and a Venom in the Bastion shooting a heavy bolter (gonna use a deathspitter for modeling to show it is being converted) and giving the Shroud to peeps. The other Zoey goes with other troops. That is tactically strong for the points. And, unfortunately, leaves me no slots available for my HG.

If I come across some extra cash, I might try a HG-included list. I can get some extra synapse from a squad of Warriors, after all. I hate being pigeonholed into a list because it is "the best," and, due to our current placement out of the 'top-tier' codexes, it actually gives us the freedom to try crazy ideas. If the odds are against you, try something insane! Heck, a Hive Commander'd outflanking set of HG, luck be with you, can do some serious damage to a vehicle-based hard-point... if you are running the shockers, it can do real damage to even a Land raider! Enough to make your opponent change targeting priorities, and any time you can force a revision on their plans, it is to your advantage (until the dice betray you...)

It's me again! I think I have another idea. Triple Flyrant is an idea...but what do people think of dropping a Flyrant...

And adding a Toxic regenning Trygon as an option?

Primary Detachment

Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
3 Ripper Swarms - Deep Strike

Biovore
Trygon - Toxin Sacs, Regeneration

Barbed Hierodule

Secondary Detachment

Flyrant

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
10 Termagants

This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.

Shingen wrote:
I never use hive guard or zoans anymore, waste of pts.

I agree with the zoans -- much prefer to mitigate synapse issues with list building and not try and make our psychic powers work in the face of the new paradigm. Also never had good luck with zoans as shooting platform since 4ed and they are even more sketchy now.

Have to disagree on hive guard though. I see way too many eldar skimmer armies and return of mech to discount the value of hive guard. And being able to shoot out of LOS is like having the ultimate cover save. The full on ignore cover is also nice, it doesn't make up for BS3 and price increase but it helps ease the pain a bit.

As far as hive guard vs dakka fexes. Take both. They work amazingly well together. Much rather have an opportunity for devourers to go after the contents of a transport then have to spend turns glancing them to death.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
It's me again! I think I have another idea. Triple Flyrant is an idea...but what do people think of dropping a Flyrant...
And adding a Toxic regenning Trygon as an option?

This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.

In what way do you feel a trygon would benefit you more than a Dakkafex or a Tyrrannofex? Is it an attempt to find a middle ground between the two?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 winterman wrote:
As far as hive guard vs dakka fexes. Take both. They work amazingly well together. Much rather have an opportunity for devourers to go after the contents of a transport then have to spend turns glancing them to death.

The problem with that is you can always take more Carnifexes. It isn't like you've filled up your heavy support slot, because you can take broods of 3. So if a Carnifex is better than Hive Guard, there is no reason to take Hive Guard.

tag8833 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
It's me again! I think I have another idea. Triple Flyrant is an idea...but what do people think of dropping a Flyrant...
And adding a Toxic regenning Trygon as an option?

This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.

In what way do you feel a trygon would benefit you more than a Dakkafex or a Tyrrannofex? Is it an attempt to find a middle ground between the two?

Faster. Higher WS so combined with Paroxysm a Trygon can become a royal pain in the arse for any elite or small infantry unit. Less firepower but more attacks and higher initiative as well - I always feel that Dakkafexes are too squishy on their lonesome and I find Tyrannofexes...well..interesting. Very short ranged, forced to advance and horrendously vulnerable to being tarpitted in assault (as a Tyranid player I am fully aware of this trick - it's how I deal with annoying things - just leave a gaunt blob with them, that's at least 3-4 combat phases where whatever it is is stuck in a gaunt blob unless they commit further units to it...). I really don't feel a Tyrannofex offers much that the list doesn't already have. Hey look, a big thing with incredibly short ranged firepower.

Plus the fact that there's an option to skip the upgrades and go for a Trygon Prime though 6 extra shots really does not seem worth the points hike (literally, the only difference is Synapse - which I am not shy of and higher base Ld - I suppose if someone really wanted to Mind War it?) Those extra six shots do not compare to toxin sacs and regen - plus the fact that the Assassin Tyrant is gone...I do feel I need something I can reliably throw at troublesome monstrous creatures like Wraithknights and Riptides - a multiple attacking, high initiative and WS Trygon with poisoned attacks seems far more reliable there than throwing a Tyrant with a LW/Bonesword or Reaper and hoping for a 6 to ID the thing....

Also, the fact I conveniently already have a Trygon painted probably helps there as well. I don't fancy my chances of getting a T-fex done in my spare time and really don't want to continue painting the dakkafexes til I'm in the right mood for them.

its not just an extra six shots if ur toxin saccin...

its 12 on deepstrike, live a turn, 12 again, then charge.

its mawloc or prime for me... mid-swimmer just ain't no good.

i say toss the regen and hope for anything but a turn 2 reserve roll, heck, even start it on the field.

tag8833 wrote:

 winterman wrote:
As far as hive guard vs dakka fexes. Take both. They work amazingly well together. Much rather have an opportunity for devourers to go after the contents of a transport then have to spend turns glancing them to death.

The problem with that is you can always take more Carnifexes. It isn't like you've filled up your heavy support slot, because you can take broods of 3. So if a Carnifex is better than Hive Guard, there is no reason to take Hive Guard.

Units of fexes are not all the great, especially running low synapse (lose more shots and take wounds on a failed IB -- single fexes loose out much less). Much prefer single fexes too for targeting purposes (rather shoot 12 and see where else to go rather than overload 24+ shots into a single unit -- especially with MSU on the rise).

That said you are right if carnifexes are better you can always unit em up to get more, but I still disagree with the premise that carnifexes are strickly better. In a world with eldar skimmer spam and the like I'd rather have a mix of both. Maybe more of a personal preference rather then a rule though.

Carnifex units are better for Overwatch. Nothing like killing 3 wraiths in my shooting phase and then another 2 when they attempted to charge me (and by doing so, failed the charge so I killed what was left in my turn).

I prefer Dakkafex over the Trygon (either variant). I usually run them in groups of 2s (bring 2 squads) and a mawloc or a squad of biovores. Synapse really isn't that big of an issue as you should be saturating your board with it.

Hard hitting hive tyrants/ harpy's along with a Mawloc to distract usually keeps my Fex's alive long enough to decimate an important squad or kill off armor. Either way I love them.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
It's me again! I think I have another idea. Triple Flyrant is an idea...but what do people think of dropping a Flyrant...

And adding a Toxic regenning Trygon as an option?

Primary Detachment

Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
3 Ripper Swarms - Deep Strike

Biovore
Trygon - Toxin Sacs, Regeneration

Barbed Hierodule

Secondary Detachment

Flyrant

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope

10 Termagants
10 Termagants

This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.

Interesting. But MoA lets you do big bugs...so why not Tyranofex, with a bubble wrap, and a Zoey Nanny?

 winterman wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 winterman wrote:
As far as hive guard vs dakka fexes. Take both. They work amazingly well together. Much rather have an opportunity for devourers to go after the contents of a transport then have to spend turns glancing them to death.

The problem with that is you can always take more Carnifexes. It isn't like you've filled up your heavy support slot, because you can take broods of 3. So if a Carnifex is better than Hive Guard, there is no reason to take Hive Guard.

Units of fexes are not all the great, especially running low synapse (lose more shots and take wounds on a failed IB -- single fexes loose out much less). Much prefer single fexes too for targeting purposes (rather shoot 12 and see where else to go rather than overload 24+ shots into a single unit -- especially with MSU on the rise).

That said you are right if carnifexes are better you can always unit em up to get more, but I still disagree with the premise that carnifexes are strickly better. In a world with eldar skimmer spam and the like I'd rather have a mix of both. Maybe more of a personal preference rather then a rule though.

Units of 2 are generally ideal, Carnifexes are best used abusing Master of Ambush or Onslaught wherever possible , the more you can push forward at once the better. 3 in a unit is definitely going to be overkill on some ideal targets are incapable of assaulting different directions.


However, the logic posted by tag is really... Bad. Sure you can take up to 9 Fexes, no more than 6 sensibly but max of 9. However It isn't called the Carnifex Support slot on the FOC. What if I want to take 2 Mawlocs? Or a Tyrannofex? Carnifexes do not completely outclass HG at all, while the Fex is a more versatile better unit generally, HG brings a bit to the table the Fexes do not, and they so it from a far less packed slot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:



This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.

Building to do this would be... A tremendous waste of the best weapon in our arsenal. The Trygon already deep strikes (better entry method as well) the Termagants can already outflank with Hive Commander, and the Zoanthrope gains very little from outflanking and does very little either way (even less than usual)

On top of that, you should only be outflanking with MoA only if you go second, so our biggest threats can make it to range without getting merked, otherwise you should be Infiltrating to put our massive 18" threats into range turn 1.