Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

[quote=DarkStarSabre 572843 7032194 0bfb0d6d3b702a5928625596a186f4b7.png

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Thought I'd share this here:

http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/47157/first-knights-maelstrom-mission

Also, lovely to see Knights.
I feel that Maelstrom missions lean more to our favour than they do for Knights - simply because we have objective secured while they do not - doubly so with Skyblight gargoyles - and 50% of the random objectives we roll are Secure X. But also helped to see that they were tough...

Knights - too hard for us to kill reliably at range and far too risky to go into melee with (Because that D weapon hurts.) Was it through mass HP stripping? Also, did the Electroshock have significant impact?

 jifel wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Are lash whips/boneswords ever worth it on Shrikes? Is it best to keep them cheap like warriors and just stick to devourers and a strangler?
How do Rending Claws match up to Swords?

I personally ran 3 shrikes with 2 rending claws and one Barbed Strangler. I found that I didn't miss having a LW/BS, but if you're going against a wraith knight heavy meta you may want it.

Word, the only upgrade I'd be temped by is Flesh Hooks, and then I'd drop the Devourers for Scything Talons...

 SHUPPET wrote:

1) I really like being able to use gaunts to speed bump or corral an enemy unit

Thing is, 3 Warriors can do this as well. With 9 T4 4+ wounds S4 attacks they stand a better chance to do it more resiliently than Terms against anything without a Fist, while likely doing a lot more damage them and striking first. As well as having much better combat upgrades. Well, much better upgrades in general.

I would never put upgrades on the warriors, it jacks up their cost way too fast.

But I wasn't talking about tarpits, but rather slowing them down.

Ex. Friend sent up his 20 khorne dogs, I advanced my gaunts to be 1" away and spread out 20-30" as needed. If I would have attacked, he would have just killed them; in this case I just get in his way so he can't move forward, and can't really move around. I can assault them, but they will just die and I get to shoot him again.

Have used the same basic tactic against IK or terminators etc.

If I used warriors, they would have just moved around them. Similarly, gaunts work better than warriors for bubble wrapping.... I still tend to take more warriors than gaunts, but I do miss the things gaunts can do.

Could have been worse. You could have been given Pyrovores....wait, mind you, they do make rather good Biovores, don't they?

Actually, wait, Harus are surprisingly good in that anti-armour big critter role...only problem is our ever crowded elites slot. As usual.

Have you had much joy with him? (I feel it's a him. I want to call him Harry.)

He's been doing ok. People who are used to just throwing their landraiders forward without a care in the world have been keeping him fed
Other times, he soaks up tons of fire and keeps the rest of the army safe. Sometimes he gets ignored but smart people and doesn't get to do anything until turn 3, but he's still the best looking model on the table

So yes, I've been having a blast with him so far! He doesn't really see competitive play on our big tournaments once a month, but he gets used the other 29-30 days!

 jy2 wrote:

Tyranid powers are actually quite good, and now both the flyrant and the zoan gets 3 of them! How is that not a buff? I can tell you that I'm not missing Biomancy that much, but to each their own.

Now your zoan basically gives 18" synapse as opposed to 12" back then. He is perfect as a beacon of synapse in your backfield and although the model is tall, he isn't really all that hard to hide. Plus now, he is scoring as well. As for Warp Lance, I mainly used it as an "attack of opportunity" rather than as a go-to offense. If a tank gets close enough, I will shoot at it but I've never played the zoan as an aggressive tank-hunter so the drop from AP1 to AP2 isn't really a big deal, at least not to me.

This. All this.

The Tyranid psychic powers aren't to be sniffed at. The fact ALL our Psykers got one for free because of the fact we only use one Discipline and that one power is the one we had to make a choice to take before is a huge boon. Dominion for free?

Not to mention that Witchfire powers do not stop you shooting/running in your shooting phase - which makes Zoeys more mobile and makes the dakka Flyrants even more terrifying should they get Warp Lance - you can Warp Lance a small squad with a blast template or a vehicle with the Lance itself and then open fire at another choice target in your shooting phase.

Zoeys...aren't aggressive. They're threats. They're an 18 inch bubble of 'Are you sure you want to park that vehicle there?" that a lot of people will respect and avoid, simply because...though the chances are low, they don't want to risk them. Against anything bar a Ork or SM transport a Zoey can make its points back easily with that one lucky hit. And people know it.

Hello, everyone after alot of studying and playtesting I have decided to obey the will of the Hive Mind and make Tyranids my 7th edition army. Hive Fleet Newt is the name of my fleet and similar to Gorgon it will adapt quickly to achieve the Hive Mind goals. I currently do not own any models but that will soon change as I have a list that I believe is very unique and competitive. I am glad I did not play the old codex or play Nids in the previous edition, as alot of discussion in this thread is about what x unit used to do I can only imagine the massive cerebral trauma switching to 7th edition must have caused. Hive Fleet Newt is lucky because it has no memory of our monstrous creatures being able to smash through stuff with ease or flying monstrous creatures being agile enough to charge from the sky. With that being said how many Fleets have died because of their inability to adapt?

The first thing I would like to discuss is the thought or belief that one unit sucks. One of the reasons I am starting a Tyranid army is that Tyranids relys on synergy to win and rewards sound tactical decisions more than any other codex in my opinion, and because of that a unit can have a role and not suck. Nearly every tyranid can become good by giving it a certain role in your list, sure there are some units that standout such as a Flyrant but dont let the greatness of one unit turn another useless.

The second thing is what is up with all the shooty list? Living artillery is a decent formation but we cannot out shoot other armies. Remember Warboss Skarfang quote we do "proper fighting" , we need to get into cc thats where we kill. At the moment Living artillery formation combine with dakka carnifexes or skyblight aka 6 FMC are the two list that seems to be having the most success but I am sure there are other ways to win with nids.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Tyranid powers are actually quite good, and now both the flyrant and the zoan gets 3 of them! How is that not a buff? I can tell you that I'm not missing Biomancy that much, but to each their own.

Now your zoan basically gives 18" synapse as opposed to 12" back then. He is perfect as a beacon of synapse in your backfield and although the model is tall, he isn't really all that hard to hide. Plus now, he is scoring as well. As for Warp Lance, I mainly used it as an "attack of opportunity" rather than as a go-to offense. If a tank gets close enough, I will shoot at it but I've never played the zoan as an aggressive tank-hunter so the drop from AP1 to AP2 isn't really a big deal, at least not to me.

This. All this.

The Tyranid psychic powers aren't to be sniffed at. The fact ALL our Psykers got one for free because of the fact we only use one Discipline and that one power is the one we had to make a choice to take before is a huge boon. Dominion for free?

Not to mention that Witchfire powers do not stop you shooting/running in your shooting phase - which makes Zoeys more mobile and makes the dakka Flyrants even more terrifying should they get Warp Lance - you can Warp Lance a small squad with a blast template or a vehicle with the Lance itself and then open fire at another choice target in your shooting phase.

Zoeys...aren't aggressive. They're threats. They're an 18 inch bubble of 'Are you sure you want to park that vehicle there?" that a lot of people will respect and avoid, simply because...though the chances are low, they don't want to risk them. Against anything bar a Ork or SM transport a Zoey can make its points back easily with that one lucky hit. And people know it.

Low level players will be the only people letting a Zoanthrope restrict their movement.

A threat is not what they are, especially since the comparison is to a unit with 9x S4 WS5 attacks, Devourer (or Deathspitter) shooting, and and a S4 AP5 pinning blast, they actually do threaten a lot more points worth of models than 1 lucky Hull Point here and there.

The fact that Witchfires don't count as shooting do nothing for Zoeys.

I never said that the Psychic table is trash for Flyrants. You are saying that. I said that it's a trash tier table for Zopes. Flyrants have excellent mobility and can make much BETTER use of every single roll than Zoeys can, even if some of them are still less than ideal.

I backed up the statements with statistics math and hard logic as to why Zoanthropes powers suck. You saying that they are nothing to be sniffed it, doesn't change the fact that if you only have 1/5 good rolls and 4 trash or highly situational powers, that they will be worth their points one out of 5 games with the exception of highly situational events taking place.

As you said, they aren't at all aggressive, but this suggest that they might be tankier than the alternative, which they aren't at all, and all they add for this trade off is the POSSIBILITY of 36" bubble instead of 24", which seems quite ample. Throwing points away towards a possibility at further Synapse seems ridiculous to me. A possibility that eats Dice from your Flyrant, to even have a positive chance, and can be denied if it's critical. Sure, it's an "oh gak" option if something goes wrong. Considering Shrikes and Warriors have a larger natural bubble due to multiple model count, almost to the distance gained by Dominion, Shrikes can match and OUTRANGE the Synapse projection in a single direction, with the guarantee of not having to cast it. And most games the Dominion range won't even be necessary considering that everything they are providing to, with that 24" circle, is generally moving at the same speed, and we aren't exactly a "fan out and cover more ground army" like White Scars, considering our reliance on supporting assaults, close range weaponry, and AoE bubbles like Venomthrope, Living Artillery & Synapse itself. 12" projection in every direction seems quite ample.

Considering the power level sacrificed from your army by taking Zoeys, I think that taking the risk of Synapse not being large enough is better than taking that same risk with a POSSIBILITY to avert it, IF the unit in question is within a 6" margin of course, at the cost of taking a a list -50 pts per Zoanthrope.

All this aside, it's really doing absolutely nothing to mitigate the negative effect of the IB rule on your army, a point which has been entirely ignored with the whole dominion argument. You are still just making your army weaker for the purpose of Synapse with Zoeys, the point of Warriors and even Shrikes is providing Synapse WITHOUT weakening your army.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Spoiler:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Tyranid powers are actually quite good, and now both the flyrant and the zoan gets 3 of them! How is that not a buff? I can tell you that I'm not missing Biomancy that much, but to each their own.

Now your zoan basically gives 18" synapse as opposed to 12" back then. He is perfect as a beacon of synapse in your backfield and although the model is tall, he isn't really all that hard to hide. Plus now, he is scoring as well. As for Warp Lance, I mainly used it as an "attack of opportunity" rather than as a go-to offense. If a tank gets close enough, I will shoot at it but I've never played the zoan as an aggressive tank-hunter so the drop from AP1 to AP2 isn't really a big deal, at least not to me.

This. All this.

The Tyranid psychic powers aren't to be sniffed at. The fact ALL our Psykers got one for free because of the fact we only use one Discipline and that one power is the one we had to make a choice to take before is a huge boon. Dominion for free?

Not to mention that Witchfire powers do not stop you shooting/running in your shooting phase - which makes Zoeys more mobile and makes the dakka Flyrants even more terrifying should they get Warp Lance - you can Warp Lance a small squad with a blast template or a vehicle with the Lance itself and then open fire at another choice target in your shooting phase.

Zoeys...aren't aggressive. They're threats. They're an 18 inch bubble of 'Are you sure you want to park that vehicle there?" that a lot of people will respect and avoid, simply because...though the chances are low, they don't want to risk them. Against anything bar a Ork or SM transport a Zoey can make its points back easily with that one lucky hit. And people know it.

Low level players will be the only people letting a Zoanthrope restrict their movement.

A threat is not what they are, especially since the comparison is to a unit with 9x S4 WS5 attacks, Devourer (or Deathspitter) shooting, and and a S4 AP5 pinning blast, they actually do threaten a lot more points worth of models than 1 lucky Hull Point here and there.

The fact that Witchfires don't count as shooting do nothing for Zoeys.

I never said that the Psychic table is trash for Flyrants. You are saying that. I said that it's a trash tier table for Zopes. Flyrants have excellent mobility and can make much BETTER use of every single roll than Zoeys can, even if some of them are still less than ideal.

I backed up the statements with statistics math and hard logic as to why Zoanthropes powers suck. You saying that they are nothing to be sniffed it, doesn't change the fact that if you only have 1/5 good rolls and 4 trash or highly situational powers, that they will be worth their points one out of 5 games with the exception of highly situational events taking place.

As you said, they aren't at all aggressive, but this suggest that they might be tankier than the alternative, which they aren't at all, and all they add for this trade off is the POSSIBILITY of 36" bubble instead of 24", which seems quite ample. Throwing points away towards a possibility at further Synapse seems ridiculous to me. A possibility that eats Dice from your Flyrant, to even have a positive chance, and can be denied if it's critical. Sure, it's an "oh gak" option if something goes wrong. Considering Shrikes and Warriors have a larger natural bubble due to multiple model count, almost to the distance gained by Dominion, Shrikes can match and OUTRANGE the Synapse projection in a single direction, with the guarantee of not having to cast it. And most games the Dominion range won't even be necessary considering that everything they are providing to, with that 24" circle, is generally moving at the same speed, and we aren't exactly a "fan out and cover more ground army" like White Scars, considering our reliance on supporting assaults, close range weaponry, and AoE bubbles like Venomthrope, Living Artillery & Synapse itself. 12" projection in every direction seems quite ample.

Considering the power level sacrificed from your army by taking Zoeys, I think that taking the risk of Synapse not being large enough is better than taking that same risk with a POSSIBILITY to avert it, IF the unit in question is within a 6" margin of course, at the cost of taking a a list -50 pts per Zoanthrope.

All this aside, it's really doing absolutely nothing to mitigate the negative effect of the IB rule on your army, a point which has been entirely ignored with the whole dominion argument. You are still just making your army weaker for the purpose of Synapse with Zoeys, the point of Warriors and even Shrikes is providing Synapse WITHOUT weakening your army.

I think to put it simply, and to reflect what Shuppet is saying, is that if you're taking Zoanthropes for a Synapse node, you're wasting 50 points. Their damage output is very low INCLUDING their *potential* damage output. Compare this point to point with Warriors: You are gaining the same positive effects as with the Zoanthrope and yet gaining assured damage. 100 points of warriors vs. 100 points of Zoanthopes is really a no brainer when it comes to Synapse.

HOWEVER, as many people are taking Zoanthropes for Warp charge bolstering units, this is *the only* place that Zoanthropes outclass Warriors. Only if you take them in single model broods. This is because of how the psychic phase is working now. Since it takes 3 Warp charges to successfully cast catalyst (or any other WC 1 power) a Flyrant can't (as reliably) cast a WC 1 power with it's own warp charges brought to the table. Yes, I realize there are the d6 additional that each player gets, but as we all know, reliance on the randomness of 40k is not how players came up with the Seer council. The best builds in the game mitigate randomness as completely as they can.

So, to pay 50 points for a 2 extra warp charges AND synapse doesn't seem like that large of an investment. But don't let that fool you into thinking that Zoanthropes are threatening...again, here's the comparison:

100 points of Zoanthropes:
The good
-4 extra warp charges
-2 extra rolls on the psychic table (if your Flyrants get screwed)
-2 separate synapse nodes
-3++ save
The bad
-Not troops
-T4 can/will be ID'd
-Reliance on the synapse nodes
-Little to no direct damage output/ threat (including range and actual damage caused)
-Casting will drain warp charges from your more potent psykers
-Reduces the number of elite slots available to you and thereby reduces Primary CAD FOC slots available to you
100 points of Warriors
The good
-Typically taken as part of a Formation, so therefore don't hamstring one of your Primary CAD FOC slots
-While not always, Objective secured means the MUST be dealt with eventually
-9 wounds will take some effort to chew through
-Can/will pack a 36" pinning, large blast weapon
-Still provide synapse
-Will be able to "hold their own" against other basic units
-Because their troops, they have great flexibility
The bad
-T4 can/will be ID'd, so they MUST be in cover
-4+ save isn't very good/reliance on cover
-Will fold to any unit that is remotely designed for assault, not to mention powerfists
-Upgrades beyond 100 points are pricey and typically discouraged
-Not psykers, so can't help Flyrants with Warp charges

I think it's pretty even. It really depends on what role you want them to play in your army. Most experienced Tyranid players (who also already use Warriors) will tell you since their used in lots of formations they are a no brainer. They aren't, however, an auto include over a Zoanthrope in all situations.

I, personally, for what it's worth, would rather take the Warriors with a Barbed Strangler over a Zoanthrope. Pretty much any day. Especially since I'll be using Living Artillery more than Skyblight. I think that if you're a Tyranid player looking to play Skyblight, you're are better off taking Zoanthropes.

I like both, for different reasons, I'm personally more inclined towards Zoeys with psuedo scoring and the fear factor. Unless we're explicitly talking Living Artillery.

Nice write up roxor, I think you just about covered everything, I think from there people can form an accurate opinion on which one is better. E.g. Reading that list to me says that Warriors are the hands down better choice, while your interpretation. Is that they are about even. What you have there Is a fair list of FACTS there and the rest is open for interpretation, everyone will take their own from it, and it does differ from situation to situation. Zoeys are the right choice in certain lists.


One or two things I will mention though - Warriors are WS5 with the attacks and wounds of 3 TAC marines each, and only 1 point worse in the save, for 2/3 of the price, and don't get weaker per wound lost only every 3. They do not fold in combat, it's where they want to be - however obviously not against anything with a Fist ! Fists and equivalents definitely won't make for a cost effective engagement most times. However in other situations, they thrive in combat.

Also worth mentioning that as a plus to Warriors is that they take a troop slot, which we generally have to just spend minimum points filling with min sized mandatory troops as is. So replacing one of these really helps mitigate their cost, even if it's not specifically netting you any free points.

Upgrades are definitely not worth mentioning as a negative to taking Warriors over Zopes, they are OPTIONAL, Zopes have none, and some of the upgrades are actually really good. Deathspitters being the main one.

Being able to benefit from Flyrant Outflanking should also be listed as a benefit,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also don't think it's fair to list S8 shooting as a disadvantage to picking the Warriors, if you aren't going to list say bolster fire as a disadvantage to Zoeys. 2 Zopes die to 4-5 S8 shots. 3 Warriors die to 3. If you give them a screen or cover of some sort combined with a Venomthrope, it becomes 9 - this is an option Zopes don't have, their resilience is already all built off the same save, at which point they just become 50 pt Warriors with no guns. Yep. Their "mandatory cover" is not actually that mandatory, trading a little bit of resilience against S8 out in the open, for a LOT more firepower. With cover on both squads however the Warriors become more than twice as durable as Zopes. This means Zopes have about 150% the durability of a Warrior against S8 natural saves, under cover saves it swings back Waariors way, giving them 200% the durability of the Zopes. It's not even a bad cost effective ratio for you even without cover, we really need to dispel this myth, as natural Warriors are more durable to S8 shooting than Tervigons, Dakkafexes, Exocrines, Hive Tyrants (assuming they hit). P much all the popular MCs except for Mawloc . You don't even want to know how much better they are at eating Lascannons than crap like Trygons or the Swarmlord. Tyranno's are an interesting one, but if they get their save they are obviously tankier, however if their AT weaponry is also AP2, well, you are once again going to live longer with the same amount of points in Warriors On the subject in the opening statement of bolter or light arms, 2 Zopes will take 24 hits, 3 Warriors will take 36. That's a 150% increase to durability the Warriors way.

Tl;dr compared to Zoanthropes, Warriors are no less durable to S8 shooting than Zoanthropes are less resilient to light arms. The Warrior can however be played to increase his durability in both these fields at little to no cost (we all run Venoms). Their durability is comparable at best, or otherwise slanted towards the Warriors. Being more resistant to light arms also helps keep up your saturation - they may not be High toughness per se, but if they weather just as many light arms shots as our MCs, and even more S8 ones (which they do) than they may as we'll be. I'm going to share a bunch of math soon and put the statement about Lascannons/Melta counter Warriors to bed.


It also needs be mentioned that S8 blasts heavily counter Warriors.
Although S8+ blasts are not hugely common you will run into them even if it's not likely to be every game (or even every second, or third), but this is THE way that points investments into Warriors can be denied by your opponent, one blast can wipe an entire squad. Cover saves ARE mandatory against Vindicators. Luckily between gribble screens, MC screens / LoS blocking, and Venomthropes, we got cover saves by the bucket full.

Spoletta wrote:
I know, i'm not saying that the warriors are our best unit in codex, just that some pages ago taking a warrior squad was considered hive heresy and now we admit they have a role they can fulfill ( i always took them but i play swarmy with no MC, they are a mainstay for me).

Even living artillery wasn't considered so much (playable but not great) and now it's turning into the new skyblight.

Mind sharing your list? Seems very unusual and i'm curious.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Nice write up roxor, I think you just about covered everything, I think from there people can form an accurate opinion on which one is better. E.g. Reading that list to me says that Warriors are the hands down better choice, while your interpretation. Is that they are about even. What you have there Is a fair list of FACTS there and the rest is open for interpretation, everyone will take their own from it, and it does differ from situation to situation. Zoeys are the right choice in certain lists.


One or two things I will mention though - Warriors are WS5 with the attacks and wounds of 3 TAC marines each, and only 1 point worse in the save, for 2/3 of the price, and don't get weaker per wound lost only every 3. They do not fold in combat, it's where they want to be - however obviously not against anything with a Fist ! Fists and equivalents definitely won't make for a cost effective engagement most times. However in other situations, they thrive in combat.

Also worth mentioning that as a plus to Warriors is that they take a troop slot, which we generally have to just spend minimum points filling with min sized mandatory troops as is. So replacing one of these really helps mitigate their cost, even if it's not specifically netting you any free points.

Upgrades are definitely not worth mentioning as a negative to taking Warriors over Zopes, they are OPTIONAL, Zopes have none, and some of the upgrades are actually really good. Deathspitters being the main one.

Being able to benefit from Flyrant Outflanking should also be listed as a benefit,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also don't think it's fair to list S8 shooting as a disadvantage to picking the Warriors, if you aren't going to list say bolster fire as a disadvantage to Zoeys. 2 Zopes die to 4-5 S8 shots. 3 Warriors die to 3. If you give them a screen or cover of some sort combined with a Venomthrope, it becomes 9 - this is an option Zopes don't have, their resilience is already all built off the same save, at which point they just become 50 pt Warriors with no guns. Yep. Their "mandatory cover" is not actually that mandatory, trading a little bit of resilience against S8 out in the open, for a LOT more firepower. With cover on both squads however the Warriors become more than twice as durable as Zopes. This means Zopes have about 150% the durability of a Warrior against S8 natural saves, under cover saves it swings back Waariors way, giving them 200% the durability of the Zopes. It's not even a bad cost effective ratio for you even without cover, we really need to dispel this myth, as natural Warriors are more durable to S8 shooting than Tervigons, Dakkafexes, Exocrines, Hive Tyrants (assuming they hit). P much all the popular MCs except for Mawloc . You don't even want to know how much better they are at eating Lascannons than crap like Trygons or the Swarmlord. Tyranno's are an interesting one, but if they get their save they are obviously tankier, however if their AT weaponry is also AP2, well, you are once again going to live longer with the same amount of points in Warriors On the subject in the opening statement of bolter or light arms, 2 Zopes will take 24 hits, 3 Warriors will take 36. That's a 150% increase to durability the Warriors way.

Tl;dr compared to Zoanthropes, Warriors are no less durable to S8 shooting than Zoanthropes are less resilient to light arms. The Warrior can however be played to increase his durability in both these fields at little to no cost (we all run Venoms). Their durability is comparable at best, or otherwise slanted towards the Warriors. Being more resistant to light arms also helps keep up your saturation - they may not be High toughness per se, but if they weather just as many light arms shots as our MCs, and even more S8 ones (which they do) than they may as we'll be. I'm going to share a bunch of math soon and put the statement about Lascannons/Melta counter Warriors to bed.


It also needs be mentioned that S8 blasts heavily counter Warriors.
Although S8+ blasts are not hugely common you will run into them even if it's not likely to be every game (or even every second, or third), but this is THE way that points investments into Warriors can be denied by your opponent, one blast can wipe an entire squad. Cover saves ARE mandatory against Vindicators. Luckily between gribble screens, MC screens / LoS blocking, and Venomthropes, we got cover saves by the bucket full.

I thought I put that S8 fire is bad for both, didn't I? I'll have to look!

I like this debate but Hive Fleet Newt has never been in a situation where it is choosing between Warriors and Zoanthropes. The only similarity that they share is that they both have synaspe. If your decision is purely base off of I need more synaspe I think that Zoanthropes is better because its cheaper, warp charges, easy to hid, and a extra underrated psychic power.

I think one of the main reason why Warriors see use is because they are required with formations. Imagine if we had a choice to choose warriors or zoanthropes to go with living artillery, I believe hands down most fleets will go with zoanthropes. Shuppet I believe your fleet is a little bias as you must be recking havoc in your part of the galaxy with the living artillery formation. The Hive Mind has warn me about the weakness of our formation which oddly enough is the Warriors. If our Warriors are destroyed our twin-linked is gone aswell as a source of synaspe. If facing an inteligent prey as this galaxy has shown to have our warrior squad will be a top priority, which I thought was easy to destroy.

 SHUPPET wrote:

we really need to dispel this myth, as natural Warriors are more durable to S8 shooting than Tervigons, Dakkafexes, Exocrines, Hive Tyrants (assuming they hit).[/b] P much all the popular MCs except for Mawloc . You don't even want to know how much better they are at eating Lascannons than crap like Trygons or the Swarmlord.

However your fleet has discovered something that needs to be absorbed by the Hive Mind and shared. I am under the impression that 3 str 8 shots that get through will kill a warrior squad, while 3 str 8 shots on a Tervigon will still live, please explain.

@CKO: he is talking about an equivalent amount of points in Tervigons and Warriors. Does Hive Fleet Newt only pay 90 points for Tervigons? No?

Lol, Hive Fleet Newt doesnt take into account how much something cost on paper. Target Priority during a game is purely based off of importance, and if killing a 100 point unit that buffs 4 other units is more important than destroying their most expensive unit than that is what should be done.

One Lascannon/Krak wound suffered by a XXX unit is a YY point (minimum) loss.
Dakkafex 37.5
Tervigon 32.5
Warrior 30
Haruspex 32
Exocrine 34
Dakka Flyrant 57.5

rigeld2 wrote:
One Lascannon/Krak wound suffered by a XXX unit is a YY point (minimum) loss.
Dakkafex 37.5
Tervigon 32.5
Warrior 30
Haruspex 32
Exocrine 34
Dakka Flyrant 57.5

However, you also have to account for how much it will affect the performance of that unit.

In all the above cases apart from the Warriors a Lascannon/Krak wound does nothing to hamper the effectiveness of the unit it is placed on. The loss of a single wound does not reduce the fire output of a dakka flyrant or fex, the spawning of a tervigon or the firepower of a exocrine.

But such a wound on a Warrior brood reduces the brood's overall effectiveness - it reduces their synapse footprint, reduces their fire output (potentially by a lot if you were unlucky enough to have the Barbed Strangler be the closes to the enemy) and can possibly take them off an objective for a turn (if you were only just within range).

Sure - that's absolutely true.

Another thing I've found is that players think "Ooooh... I can ID those dudes or cause a single wound on that thing. DIE WARRIORS!" and throw more missiles/lascannons their way instead of the Dakkafexes coming up to ruin their day. It's happened enough times against even good players that I don't understand it but I'll abuse it.

rigeld2 wrote:
Sure - that's absolutely true.

Another thing I've found is that players think "Ooooh... I can ID those dudes or cause a single wound on that thing. DIE WARRIORS!" and throw more missiles/lascannons their way instead of the Dakkafexes coming up to ruin their day. It's happened enough times against even good players that I don't understand it but I'll abuse it.

Yes, we often have so many things to shoot at that our opponent often shoot at the wrong things, making flooding the field with targets a serious advantage with us. However in the case of Swarmlords, living artillery warriors, or any buff unit killing them early is always a good choice. It is not the end of the world if they die as something will always die the trick is to take advantage of knowing that they want to kill certain units first. I dont know how many times I have won games because my opponent over extended to try to kill a certain unit.

@CKO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you just say that you don't own any Tyranid models, and had never played the army?

Thank you all for convincing me to buy this model...amazing detail and I can't wait to field it tomorrow!

 foto69man wrote:
Thank you all for convincing me to buy this model...amazing detail and I can't wait to field it tomorrow!

Would you be an awesome human being and take some dimensions for me?

Asmodas wrote:
@CKO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you just say that you don't own any Tyranid models, and had never played the army?

Yes, that is correct I do not own any models and have never played the army I only mention Hive Fleet Newt and Hive Mind to my post to add flavor. Does that some how make my comments or contribution to the thread less viable than others? You only have a handful of post does that somehow make your opinion on things irrelevate? I think not.

My personality type is analytical, I have spent several hours studying the codex and inspecting the internet for valuable information and I believe I know alot about the codex. I have read this thread, warseer thread, jy2 article and battle reports, frontline gaming articles, incontrol's battle reports, and hivemind I know for a fact that I have put more time, effort, and energy into learning the anatomy of Tyranids than the average player. Now all I need to do is start using my friends models and proxying to get battlefield experience, which is vital. In my current list I have one variable but I believe that the unit in question will do what its intended purpose is, besides that everything else already has a stamp of approvable by several battle reports. If I have said something that hasnt made sense please tell me!

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
One Lascannon/Krak wound suffered by a XXX unit is a YY point (minimum) loss.
Dakkafex 37.5
Tervigon 32.5
Warrior 30
Haruspex 32
Exocrine 34
Dakka Flyrant 57.5

However, you also have to account for how much it will affect the performance of that unit.

In all the above cases apart from the Warriors a Lascannon/Krak wound does nothing to hamper the effectiveness of the unit it is placed on. The loss of a single wound does not reduce the fire output of a dakka flyrant or fex, the spawning of a tervigon or the firepower of a exocrine.

But such a wound on a Warrior brood reduces the brood's overall effectiveness - it reduces their synapse footprint, reduces their fire output (potentially by a lot if you were unlucky enough to have the Barbed Strangler be the closes to the enemy) and can possibly take them off an objective for a turn (if you were only just within range).

This is true, they lose firepower per shot. this is why Warriors aren't as POWERFUL as our MCs. This is an inherit advantage that MCs have over infantry units,You would in all honestly likely be better off with a Dakkafex, if Synapse wasn't important. However it is, and the point of the comparison to MCs was to invalidate the statement you keep making, that Las/Melta counters Warriors, when really the overall points efficiency is no worse than shooting S8 at any MC and they still provide Synapse to the last man, making them a Synapse platform more durable than any of those MCs, even if they do lose firepower per wound. They still have better overall durability, and that Synapse stays up to the last guy (In the case of say a Dakkafex, if they eat 4 Lascannons shots the entire unit is dead, the Warrior is still standing, so the added efficiency mitigates this a little and sort of let's it work both ways). Even down to the 1 Warrior with a strangler and it still has countless more times they strength of even both remaining Zoanthrope (although one of the 2 stands a 2/3 chance of being dead after the same amount of S8 shooting, and are both gonna be extra dead by the time you are down to one Warrior if you kept em cover'ed).

Luck doesn't put the Warrior with the Cannon closest to the enemy - stupidity does. It's really not hard to put the middle Warrior behind the other two. The exception is deep striking melta, but they are highly likely to be killing the entire squad regardless. If they do somehow snipe the Cannon, rest assured that armies who love to DS into Tyranids are one our best match ups, and units that do it will never be cost effective, just off the nature of OUR army. We all have crazy amounts of firepower that we often can't use for a turn or two, and when we can it's often not against the ideal targets E.g. their AT weapons. Every unit brought to us mitigates our natural range disadvantage, I'm sure any of you who have played against drop pod Marines probably wondered why it was so easy for us even tho they got the alpha, the answer is they were essentially paying points to give us all the mobility we've ever needed.

 foto69man wrote:
Thank you all for convincing me to buy this model...amazing detail and I can't wait to field it tomorrow!

Good for you. I ordered mine a few days ago. Still is in the mail on its way! I just hope it gets here in time for an 1850 tournament this weekend.

 CKO wrote:

Asmodas wrote:
@CKO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you just say that you don't own any Tyranid models, and had never played the army?

Yes, that is correct I do not own any models and have never played the army I only mention Hive Fleet Newt and Hive Mind to my post to add flavor. Does that some how make my comments or contribution to the thread less viable than others? You only have a handful of post does that somehow make your opinion on things irrelevate? I think not.

My personality type is analytical, I have spent several hours studying the codex and inspecting the internet for valuable information and I believe I know alot about the codex. I have read this thread, warseer thread, jy2 article and battle reports, frontline gaming articles, incontrol's battle reports, and hivemind I know for a fact that I have put more time, effort, and energy into learning the anatomy of Tyranids than the average player. Now all I need to do is start using my friends models and proxying to get battlefield experience, which is vital. In my current list I have one variable but I believe that the unit in question will do what its intended purpose is, besides that everything else already has a stamp of approvable by several battle reports. If I have said something that hasnt made sense please tell me!

I think he was probably referring to your last post, it made it sound as though you were saying you won all the time with Tyranids, when I think you were just talkin about how the game works in general.

I will also recommend that you get out and play some games. Theory is great on paper, but unless you have amazingly gifted foresight (and you do not), you will start discovering a bunch of things didn't work as you planned and you will either immediately see why, or have to ask yourself why, and every time you work one of these things out, you will improve as a player.

I would recommend sharing experiences in here or asking advice on theory for those that do have the experience, as coming in here with no actual experience or models and telling people that Living Artillery is overrated because "Nids can't outshoot other armies" or that there is no unplayable units in the dex and we just aren't seeing the Synergy, well go out and prove it. At the very least to yourself. Take an army of Hormagants, Trygons, Pyrovores, Haruspexes, led by the Swarmlord, and mixed in with whatever you feel Synergizes well with them, see how you perform against anything with a half competitive list. I'm all for finding the true strength overlooked on some units where it is less than blatant - but sorry, but some units are just trash, and as you play more games with them you will begin to understand why, if your analytical diagnosis hasn't already told you why. It's not about he fact that something may have been better last dex, it's about the fact that it sucks NOW.
Don't get me wrong, the initial expectations content in your original post I found interesting and amusing, and it will be interesting to see where it leads you with time and experience on which units completely outclass others for their roles (because some do) a but you have to LET this happen, getting out there and playing, and actually doing proper analysis on whether a unit is worth it's points, not just whether or not it is capable of fulfilling a role. Because at the moment you are playing catch up and trying to talk strategy off theory, with and against people who have done all the same theory but also have a lot of experience. I'm not trying to be elitist: but there's nothing more annoying than that guy who comes in regurgitating everything he's read on the internet, telling us which strategys do and don't work, just because the majority of opinions found online said so.

Also, I personally think FrontLine Game is crazily overrated source of strategy knowledge. They put together nice Battlereps, this does not make them the best people to listen to for strategic advice. Same with bloggers, being a consistently entertaining write or provider of content, are doesn't make your Tervigon perform any less terrible when you chuck it in your Skyblight list. You mentioned inControl, while definitely one of the bigger faces of Tyranids, but he in particular has glaring mistakes in his builds and gameplay.

Use your brain and form your own opinions - as I will GUARANTEE that the bulk of what you will read has not had a lot of thought put behind it, and is mostly just the majority's surface level opinion, or the regurgitation of it by the masses. Sometimes this is accurate - Trygons cost nearly double what they should, there isn't much you can do with this. However a lot of things do change when you start putting decent thought into them and running the numbers. I think the whole Warriors against S8 shooting argument a few posts up is good proof of this.

Keep in mind 40k doesn't have professional level gamers. The closest we have is bloggers both interesting and competent enough to develop a following. However there is no real medium for professional players going deeper than surface level and debunking a lot of surface-level analysis, as you see happen in other forms of competitive gaming. 40k is a constantly evolving game with a lot of untread competitive ground for a lot of the middle tier armies. It's up to you to delve past the barrier of the group-think.


This isn't fully directed to you CKO, just more generalised, hopefully a lot of people will take something out of this for their own game, and not let the barrier of the sheep mentality that comes with doing everything they've read and been told to do, and not doing anything they haven't, hold back their gameplay any longer. Because that's what it does. If you put the work in yourself to finding other whether there is more to a matter than surface level opinions, well even if there turned out not to be, you've lost nothing and gained confirmation. Even I am still slowly discovering more as the need or situation arises that results in me looking at a unit from a different angle. This is how we improve.

Has anyone put any real thought into devourer gaunt's? I'm only asking as I've not seen them mentioned yet and by god can they put out some amount of firepower. I'm running either 3x20 or 4x15 and i swear there a holy terror round these part's.

I find the 4x15 are the best when backed up by 2 warrior teams with strangler's. That's 180 S4 shot's and 2 large blast's with pinning per turn. Not bad for under 700 points surely?.

I run a 30 model brood of Gaunts. 10 Fleshborer and 20 Devourer. Really like it.

Don't think I posted up the link yet, but here is my battle against Farsight Tau:


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I'm taking a little break from all my Necron battle reports to showcase some of the other armies and how they play in a competitive atmosphere. This will be my very first game with my new Tyranids in 7th Edition.

This is a practice game for the BAO with potential lists that we both may bring. My opponent is Jamie, aka Commander_Farsight here on dakka. The last time we played, it was my Necrons against a different version of his Farsight-bomb.

This time, he brought a much, much different Farsight build and I must say, it looks actually rather scary (at least for my bugs)! Jamie is still a relatively new player though, with much to learn about the competitive scene. However, he will be attending the BAO this year so requested some practice against me. I, of course, was happy to destroy all newcomers....I mean, to be his sparring partner for this game. Now Jamie does have experience playing against Skyblight back in 6th (when they were arguably much, much better than they are now). I believe that he actually won that game, though it was a closely fought one (correct me if I am wrong, Jamie). As for me, my bugs have always had trouble against Tau back in 6th. Let's just say they were one of 2 armies that I had a losing record against. So here we have the young gun with the ultimate bug-killing army but little competitive experience against the seasoned veteran with lots of tricks up his sleeves. Can Commander_Farsight finally claim the revenge that he has long sought after?

Stay tuned....


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1850 Sky Fleet Pandora

Flyrant - 2x TL-Brainleech Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
Flyrant - 2x TL-Brainleech Devourers, Electroshock Grubs

1x Venomthrope
1x Zoanthrope

3x Ripper Swarms - Deepstrike
3x Ripper Swarms - Deepstrike

2x Biovores
Mawloc

Bastion - Comms Relay

Formation: Skyblight

Flyrant - 2x TL-Brainleech Devourers, Electroshock Grubs

Harpy - TL-Stranglethorns
Harpy - TL-HVC
Hive Crone

11x Gargoyles
11x Gargoyles
11x Gargoyles



1850 Farsight-bomb Tau

Farsight
Shadowsun (Warlord)

7x Bodyguards - 3x Dual Plasmas, 3x Dual Fusions, 6x Target Locks, 1x "Buff" Suit, 14x Gun Drones

6x Fire Warriors
6x Fire Warriors
6x Fire Warriors

Formation: Tau Firebase Cadre

Riptide - HBC, TL-Fusions, Skyfire, Interceptor

3x Broadsides - HYMP, TL-SMS, Skyfire
3x Broadsides - HYMP, TL-SMS, Skyfire


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


For the report in its entirety, you can read it here:


1850 BAO Practice - Sky Fleet Pandora Tyranids vs Farsight-bomb Tau

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think he was probably referring to your last post, it made it sound as though you were saying you won all the time with Tyranids, when I think you were just talkin about how the game works in general.

I win the majority of my games and I can see how my post come off as a person that is speaking with confidence.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I will also recommend that you get out and play some games. Theory is great on paper, but unless you have amazingly gifted foresight (and you do not), you will start discovering a bunch of things didn't work as you planned and you will either immediately see why, or have to ask yourself why, and every time you work one of these things out, you will improve as a player.

I agree with you as I have similar beliefs about theory on paper but I have played alot of games, just not with the Nid codex. I would like to know what have I said that you have classified as theory? Three strength eight attacks that gets through kills the Warrior unit while it doesnt kill a 6 wound montrous creature is not a theory but a fact.

 SHUPPET wrote:

I would recommend sharing experiences in here or asking advice on theory for those that do have the experience, as coming in here with no actual experience or models and telling people that Living Artillery is overrated because "Nids can't outshoot other armies" or that there is no unplayable units in the dex and we just aren't seeing the Synergy, well go out and prove it.

I have about a decade worth of experience to share, everything I know about 40k is not going to change because I decide to play Tyranids. I like Living Artillery but I think it is overrated, a single exocrine, 3 biovores, and a warrior squad with pinning and twin-linked weapons is a decent buff but not game changing. I dont believe shooting is our best option but I do understand how you can combine that formation with other twin-linked weapons to make a really good shooty list remember I am the one that thinks everything is playable. I think that type of list will have a hard time beating certain shooty list such as Tau. The formation greatest weakness is killing the warriors to get rid of the twin-linked buff. I say nids cant outshoot other armies because we do not have access to ignore cover str 8 ap 2 blast templates (Tau) or lots of twin-linked str 6 and str 7 shooting (eldar). Their weapons also are long range while all of our shooting is short range giving them another advantage but, that doesnt mean we cant beat them. I just think their range weapons are better than ours and that is the main reason why I said we cant outshoot other armies, I would love to learn from your experience how have you managed to beat other shooty list with living artillery.

 SHUPPET wrote:
At the very least to yourself. Take an army of Hormagants, Trygons, Pyrovores, Haruspexes, led by the Swarmlord, and mixed in with whatever you feel Synergizes well with them, see how you perform against anything with a half competitive list. I'm all for finding the true strength overlooked on some units where it is less than blatant - but sorry, but some units are just trash, and as you play more games with them you will begin to understand why, if your analytical diagnosis hasn't already told you why. It's not about he fact that something may have been better last dex, it's about the fact that it sucks NOW.

Lol, my analytical diagnosis that is a good one! I never said that I can somehow unlock the true potential of all units because of my supreme knowledge of Nids synergy. I apologize if I came off that way, all I was saying is that sometimes one unit does a job better than another so we automatically call the other unit trash. I know this for a fact that alot of units are judged unfairly because of how they are playtested. People simply replace a carnifex for a Haruspexe in their list and at the end of the game say the carnifex would have been better. The best way to judge a unit is to make a new list where it has a role instead of seeing if it can substitute another unit in your current list. Shuppet in your case if you are using Living Artillery why in the hadez would you add a Haruspex its a CC unit in a shooty list its going to get shot to shreds and not contribute to your shooting.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Don't get me wrong, the initial expectations content in your original post I found interesting and amusing, and it will be interesting to see where it leads you with time and experience on which units completely outclass others for their roles (because some do) a but you have to LET this happen, getting out there and playing, and actually doing proper analysis on whether a unit is worth it's points, not just whether or not it is capable of fulfilling a role. Because at the moment you are playing catch up and trying to talk strategy off theory, with and against people who have done all the same theory but also have a lot of experience. I'm not trying to be elitist: but there's nothing more annoying than that guy who comes in regurgitating everything he's read on the internet, telling us which strategys do and don't work, just because the majority of opinions found online said so.

I am never playing catch up when it comes to 40k. This entire post is about how you assume I do not know what I am talking about because I admit to not having a model but you have yet to respond to my comments which you have put in a theory category. If what I have said is theory and can easily be refuted by your actual battlefield experience please feel free to explain as I am here to learn. I do not agree with the majority if I did I would be like you and think that the majority of the units are outclass by others and you should only use a handful of units or Living Artillery and Skyblight. You are attacking my creditability instead of my tactics which I find quite annoying, just like you find people who study annoying.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Also, I personally think FrontLine Game is crazily overrated source of strategy knowledge. They put together nice Battlereps, this does not make them the best people to listen to for strategic advice. Same with bloggers, being a consistently entertaining write or provider of content, are doesn't make your Tervigon perform any less terrible when you chuck it in your Skyblight list. You mentioned inControl, while definitely one of the bigger faces of Tyranids, but he in particular has glaring mistakes in his builds and gameplay.

I agree with some of this but I use them as a source it cant hurt, I have a brain of my own but I needed more data.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Use your brain and form your own opinions - as I will GUARANTEE that the bulk of what you will read has not had a lot of thought put behind it, and is mostly just the majority's surface level opinion, or the regurgitation of it by the masses. Sometimes this is accurate - Trygons cost nearly double what they should, there isn't much you can do with this. However a lot of things do change when you start putting decent thought into them and running the numbers. I think the whole Warriors against S8 shooting argument a few posts up is good proof of this.

I agree I did research to get ideas I have never copy and paste someones list or agree with others 100% of the time as you can tell. I also would like to point out that I found the whole Warrior against s8 shooting argument interesting but at the end of the day useless borderline pointless. I have never killed a unit and ask myself how much did that unit cost especially if its a buff unit. I have never lost a buff unit and was happy about it because it was cheap point wise, I really need someone to explain this to me.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Keep in mind 40k doesn't have professional level gamers. The closest we have is bloggers both interesting and competent enough to develop a following. However there is no real medium for professional players going deeper than surface level and debunking a lot of surface-level analysis, as you see happen in other forms of competitive gaming. 40k is a constantly evolving game with a lot of untread competitive ground for a lot of the middle tier armies. It's up to you to delve past the barrier of the group-think.

This isn't fully directed to you CKO, just more generalised, hopefully a lot of people will take something out of this for their own game, and not let the barrier of the sheep mentality that comes with doing everything they've read and been told to do, and not doing anything they haven't, hold back their gameplay any longer. Because that's what it does. If you put the work in yourself to finding other whether there is more to a matter than surface level opinions, well even if there turned out not to be, you've lost nothing and gained confirmation. Even I am still slowly discovering more as the need or situation arises that results in me looking at a unit from a different angle. This is how we improve.

I know it is not directed towards me as you have classified me as a player that has come to this thread in need of help, when I have come to this thread to share and find small gems or something that might help me win. I agree with shuppet here to many players want to be good but dont put the time and energy into improving to do so. Shuppet I am knowledgeable because of my years of experience, hours of research, and games against Tyranids please do not question my creditability but my tactics.