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 syypher wrote:
Can mawlocs tarpit better than a squad of gargoyles? how so? (I'm new to 40k 7e and Nids in general so I'm not bashing. I'm really curious)

Point for point, Gargoyles are a much better tarpit. Perhaps 3 times as good. I think Shuppet was being a bit hyperbolic, and discounting gargoyles because they die easier to shooting.

 syypher wrote:
Also what are good data slate to use? I keep hearing about Sky Blight but people keep saying its also not as good anymore. What are the top data slates now?

There are three Tyranid dataslates. They each include 5 Tyranid formations. The formations break down something like this:
Source Power Rating Formation Name Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 1 Very Weak Lictor Forest Brood Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 1 Very Weak Manufactorum Genestealers Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 1 Weak Deathleaper's Assasin Brood Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 1 Very Weak Broodlord's Hunting Pack Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 1 Very Weak Gargoyle Bio-Bombs Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 2 Weak Incubator Node Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 2 Very Weak Synaptic Swarm Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 2 Strong Skyblight Swarm Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 2 Strong Living Artillery Node Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 2 Moderate Endless Swarm Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 3 Moderate Bioblast Node Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 3 Weak Wrecker Node Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 3 Weak Tyrant Node Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 3 Weak Subterranean Swarm Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 3 Weak Living Tide

 syypher wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think missing the scatter and placing a 6/6/6 3+ In your opponents side of the field is never going to be wasted points. I think if you are taking it just for a reburrowing TftD you are obviously better with a Mawloc. Take the TftD for what it is, 50/50 chance of a Repeating S6 covering ignoring blast, or double that with 2, and 8x S6 Ap2 attacks on the charge for 280 pts, and 12 freaking T6 wounds that will either have to be dealt with (every shot pointed at a Mawloc is extremely efficient for you) or ignored giving them free reign to tarpit better and more efficiently than a Garg squad as well as doing a lot more damage, to a much broader range of targets.

A mawloc can tarpit better than a Gargoyle squad? I'm scouting models for expanding my small 800pt army to 1850 and I'd much prefer MCs over having to build and paint 20 gargoyles. But I don't mind going the garg route. My other 2 heavy slots are already filled with dakkafexes.

Can mawlocs tarpit better than a squad of gargoyles? how so? (I'm new to 40k 7e and Nids in general so I'm not bashing. I'm really curious)


Also what are good data slate to use? I keep hearing about Sky Blight but people keep saying its also not as good anymore. What are the top data slates now?

The second one is most likely to be useful. Mawlocs can tarpit well because they have high Toughness, and good armor, in addition they can do some serious damage...but I don't nessisarily think they are Better. It's more of an additional feature.

I am one of the lone rebel bugs that has little fondness for Skyblight. It's plenty strong, but it does not suit my style. There are numerous batreps that show it in action, right here on Dakka.

Oh okay cool I'll try to find some featuring it! I'm interested for sure!

Lots of stuff I'm reading is it's not as good as it use to be.. is it still competitive to use? Or are there better options?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:

 syypher wrote:
Can mawlocs tarpit better than a squad of gargoyles? how so? (I'm new to 40k 7e and Nids in general so I'm not bashing. I'm really curious)

Point for point, Gargoyles are a much better tarpit. Perhaps 3 times as good. I think Shuppet was being a bit hyperbolic, and discounting gargoyles because they die easier to shooting.

 syypher wrote:
Also what are good data slate to use? I keep hearing about Sky Blight but people keep saying its also not as good anymore. What are the top data slates now?

There are three Tyranid dataslates. They each include 5 Tyranid formations. The formations break down something like this:
Source Power Rating Formation Name Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 1 Very Weak Lictor Forest Brood Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 1 Very Weak Manufactorum Genestealers Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 1 Weak Deathleaper's Assasin Brood Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 1 Very Weak Broodlord's Hunting Pack Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 1 Very Weak Gargoyle Bio-Bombs Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 2 Weak Incubator Node Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 2 Very Weak Synaptic Swarm Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 2 Strong Skyblight Swarm Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 2 Strong Living Artillery Node Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 2 Moderate Endless Swarm Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 3 Moderate Bioblast Node Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 3 Weak Wrecker Node Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 3 Weak Tyrant Node Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 3 Weak Subterranean Swarm Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 3 Weak Living Tide

Wow! Thanks man! That's some awesome data!!!!

tag8833 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

Addaran wrote:
Anyone have the full range of Tyranid models? It would be fun if we could see a group pic, with all on them from smallest to largest/tallest in a line. That would be really helpfull for those of us that don't have access to all models cause we're still building our army.

That depends...has anyone here had the misfortune of buying a pyrovore?

I'm selling a collection for a retiring player right now that included 2 metal Pyrovores. The first one sold for $35. The current one has a $10 bid on it. He was using it as a "Counts as" Biovore, and they look really similar.

With the new base size they on the biovores they would do real well.

Iechine: Those dataslates look neat. I like where you're going with them, house rules are usually the best rules.

Regarding Pyrovores: I have 3 (Metal, bought new, but at half price ) and I use them as Biovores because it's an awesome sculpt and deserves to be used!

 ductvader wrote:
.has anyone here had the misfortune of buying a pyrovore?

I see them everywhere. They are called 'Biovores' I have 4 in finecast.

Has anyone actually played the lictor forest brood?

IF...your opponent cannot ignore cover, they're ridiculous. I made my opponent fire half their army into it and then still had enough lictors alive to roll a unit or two in combat.

And Deathleaper's Assassin's Brood is moderate.

Synaptic Swarm is not "very weak"



Where did all of these "ratings" come from?

 ductvader wrote:
Has anyone actually played the lictor forest brood?

IF...your opponent cannot ignore cover, they're ridiculous. I made my opponent fire half their army into it and then still had enough lictors alive to roll a unit or two in combat.

And Deathleaper's Assassin's Brood is moderate.

Synaptic Swarm is not "very weak"



Where did all of these "ratings" come from?

The ratings came from the Top of my head, and I haven't used Lictor Forest brood yet. I have 2 Lictors, but will be ordering deathleaper and 3 more next month, so I will give it a shot eventually.

Deathleaper's assassin brood took a serious nerf from 7th. I figured that dropped its usefulness enough to drop it from moderate to weak.

As far as Synaptic Swarm. Perhaps it should have been "weak" instead of very weak. It requires you to take a lot of models that you would not otherwise take, and gives you limited benifit for doing so. It was unclear to me what list it would work well in. Perhaps large point lists that need extra synapse, or multiple formation lists for Endless Swarm. Perhaps you could share a list with Synaptic Swarm that you think would work well.

ETA. Part of the problem with Lictor Forest Brood is nobody in my meta ever willingly uses a forest. I have to choose the terrain if I want it to include a forest, and it feels wrong picking terrain to make my army stronger.

I use my forest brood to kill centurions, close deployment, rending, and centurion fire is highly ineffective against them.

I can agree with "generic weak" for synaptic swarm. I just didn't think the cost to benefit classified them as very weak like manufactorum genestealers.

(Though don't get me wrong, I have had success with factory stealers and especially the hunting pack<-would not rate either as strong)

 ductvader wrote:
ETA. Part of the problem with Lictor Forest Brood is nobody in my meta ever willingly uses a forest. I have to choose the terrain if I want it to include a forest, and it feels wrong picking terrain to make my army stronger.

People don't feel bad taking advantage of rules involving terrain when they can (such as placing units on the 2nd story of a ruin so our Mawlocs can't hurt them) so I wouldn't worry so much about throwing a forest or two on the table. If you're REALLY worried about negative perception...start playing with forests a few games BEFORE fielding the lector forest brood. It won't feel so obvious...

My only issue is I don't have enough Lictor models...I like, in theory, both the Forest Brood and the Deathleaper Assassin Squad.

 Voidwraith wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
ETA. Part of the problem with Lictor Forest Brood is nobody in my meta ever willingly uses a forest. I have to choose the terrain if I want it to include a forest, and it feels wrong picking terrain to make my army stronger.

People don't feel bad taking advantage of rules involving terrain when they can (such as placing units on the 2nd story of a ruin so our Mawlocs can't hurt them) so I wouldn't worry so much about throwing a forest or two on the table. If you're REALLY worried about negative perception...start playing with forests a few games BEFORE fielding the lector forest brood. It won't feel so obvious...

My only issue is I don't have enough Lictor models...I like, in theory, both the Forest Brood and the Deathleaper Assassin Squad.

If someone added a multi-level terrain because he was bringing Devastators, and feared I might have a Mawloc, I would be pissed. Picking Terrain for advantage seems wrong.

Thanks everyone for helping me with whats in and out of Tyranids now. (For those of you just tuning in I loved playing Nids but the last time I really played 40k Nids was 5e)

I got a few more questions...

1) The Hive Crone... is it usually taken for the Haywire? That's it's main purpose right? And it's also a FMC for awesomeness? Does anyone take Harpies?

2) How are Genestealer Broods now a days? I LOVED running them in a congo line back to something that gave them cover back in 5th. They tore ANYTHING I threw them at up! I didn't have too much a hard time getting them into CC but with all the changes and insane weight of fire power across the board now... it seems more impossible.

3) How many Gargoyle Broods for Tarpitting? And how many in each Brood? @1500? @1850? I'm wanting to build TAC lists and Gargoyles seem like the best way to keep something bogged down a couple turns. How many should I have? Will 2x 15 be enough to take shots going in and still hold my target for a turn or 2? This is for general purposes so I don't really have any examples of what I'd be holding with them.

4) How many Flyrants is enough @1850 to keep my opponent honest and pressured? I was thinking 3. But I'd have to ally another Tyranid detachment which I don't mind.

5) How do you guys win on objectives for those of you that use Ripper Swarms as your Troop choices? I know they have Objective secured but with just 2x min units to maximize the rest of our lists... if any of our enemies Objective Secured Super Scoring units survive we'd have a hard time contesting... Seems like Ripper Swarms could easily just be removed and then they proceed to win by 1 Obj.

pinecone77 wrote:

 syypher wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think missing the scatter and placing a 6/6/6 3+ In your opponents side of the field is never going to be wasted points. I think if you are taking it just for a reburrowing TftD you are obviously better with a Mawloc. Take the TftD for what it is, 50/50 chance of a Repeating S6 covering ignoring blast, or double that with 2, and 8x S6 Ap2 attacks on the charge for 280 pts, and 12 freaking T6 wounds that will either have to be dealt with (every shot pointed at a Mawloc is extremely efficient for you) or ignored giving them free reign to tarpit better and more efficiently than a Garg squad as well as doing a lot more damage, to a much broader range of targets.

A mawloc can tarpit better than a Gargoyle squad? I'm scouting models for expanding my small 800pt army to 1850 and I'd much prefer MCs over having to build and paint 20 gargoyles. But I don't mind going the garg route. My other 2 heavy slots are already filled with dakkafexes.

Can mawlocs tarpit better than a squad of gargoyles? how so? (I'm new to 40k 7e and Nids in general so I'm not bashing. I'm really curious)


Also what are good data slate to use? I keep hearing about Sky Blight but people keep saying its also not as good anymore. What are the top data slates now?

The second one is most likely to be useful. Mawlocs can tarpit well because they have high Toughness, and good armor, in addition they can do some serious damage...but I don't nessisarily think they are Better. It's more of an additional feature.

I am one of the lone rebel bugs that has little fondness for Skyblight. It's plenty strong, but it does not suit my style. There are numerous batreps that show it in action, right here on Dakka.

Pretty much what pinecone said. The Garg might actually be the better all round tarpit in a vacuum where we just look at what tarp it's the best, in practice though the Mawloc fulfills so much more utlity and threat power that I feel it's the better tarpit. Then taking into account competitive nids really has nothing but the minimum amount of infantry, taking a 20+ Garg blob is going to die much easier than everything and just gives a really cost effective target for flames or other dedicated anti-infantry, that would otherwise be wasted on MCs. Mawloc being the most cost effective MC in your army to shoot at, it's no hyperbole when I say Mawloc is the better tarpit unit, the logic behind it is just rather a bit indirectly related to the differences between the models, but hopefully this helps clear up my standpoint on it as this May not all apply to you, and if it doesn't than it's quite possible Gargoyles are the unit you are looking for in your build! Use your better judgement (Mawlocs are great though )

 SHUPPET wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

 syypher wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think missing the scatter and placing a 6/6/6 3+ In your opponents side of the field is never going to be wasted points. I think if you are taking it just for a reburrowing TftD you are obviously better with a Mawloc. Take the TftD for what it is, 50/50 chance of a Repeating S6 covering ignoring blast, or double that with 2, and 8x S6 Ap2 attacks on the charge for 280 pts, and 12 freaking T6 wounds that will either have to be dealt with (every shot pointed at a Mawloc is extremely efficient for you) or ignored giving them free reign to tarpit better and more efficiently than a Garg squad as well as doing a lot more damage, to a much broader range of targets.

A mawloc can tarpit better than a Gargoyle squad? I'm scouting models for expanding my small 800pt army to 1850 and I'd much prefer MCs over having to build and paint 20 gargoyles. But I don't mind going the garg route. My other 2 heavy slots are already filled with dakkafexes.

Can mawlocs tarpit better than a squad of gargoyles? how so? (I'm new to 40k 7e and Nids in general so I'm not bashing. I'm really curious)


Also what are good data slate to use? I keep hearing about Sky Blight but people keep saying its also not as good anymore. What are the top data slates now?

The second one is most likely to be useful. Mawlocs can tarpit well because they have high Toughness, and good armor, in addition they can do some serious damage...but I don't nessisarily think they are Better. It's more of an additional feature.

I am one of the lone rebel bugs that has little fondness for Skyblight. It's plenty strong, but it does not suit my style. There are numerous batreps that show it in action, right here on Dakka.

Pretty much what pinecone said. The Garg might actually be the better all round tarpit in a vacuum where we just look at what tarp it's the best, in practice though the Mawloc fulfills so much more utlity and threat power that I feel it's the better tarpit. Then taking into account competitive nids really has nothing but the minimum amount of infantry, taking a 20+ Garg blob is going to die much easier than everything and just gives a really cost effective target for flames or other dedicated anti-infantry, that would otherwise be wasted on MCs. Mawloc being the most cost effective MC in your army to shoot at, it's no hyperbole when I say Mawloc is the better tarpit unit, the logic behind it is just rather a bit indirectly related to the differences between the models, but hopefully this helps clear up my standpoint on it as this May not all apply to you, and if it doesn't than it's quite possible Gargoyles are the unit you are looking for in your build! Use your better judgement (Mawlocs are great though )

List some units that you are likely to tarpit and I will run the stats, and we can use math to settle it.

Here are some units I regularly tarpit.
Riptide
Broadsides (3 man squad)
Devastators (5 man Squad)
Wraith Knight
Crisis Suites (3 Man squad)
Long Fangs (5 man squad)
Marine Command Squads (5 man squad)
Marine Command Squad with Vulkan
Marine Command Squad with Chapter Master
Broadsides with Buffmander
Sternguard (10 Man Squad)
Thunderfire Cannon
Dreadnought
Ironclad Deradnought
Librarian Dreadnoughts
Obliterators
Defilers (or other CSM Walkers)
War Walkers






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 syypher wrote:
Thanks everyone for helping me with whats in and out of Tyranids now. (For those of you just tuning in I loved playing Nids but the last time I really played 40k Nids was 5e)

I got a few more questions...

1) The Hive Crone... is it usually taken for the Haywire? That's it's main purpose right? And it's also a FMC for awesomeness? Does anyone take Harpies?

Haywire is not the main reason to take the Crone. It is S8 AP2 vector strike, and S6 AP4 Flame template. I ran a game with 2 Crones last night. I only fired 3 of the 8 Haywire missiles all game, and one was in overwatch against a charging Marine character.

 syypher wrote:
2) How are Genestealer Broods now a days? I LOVED running them in a congo line back to something that gave them cover back in 5th. They tore ANYTHING I threw them at up! I didn't have too much a hard time getting them into CC but with all the changes and insane weight of fire power across the board now... it seems more impossible.

Genestealers are not a good unit. They cost way, way too much. They die to a stiff wind, and are too slow to be all that useful as an assault unit. If you want to use them, take a large squad (15-20). Infiltrate it into a ruins midfield and conga-line it back to your deployment zone so that they get Shrouded from a venomthrope, and watch out for flamers.

 syypher wrote:
3) How many Gargoyle Broods for Tarpitting? And how many in each Brood? @1500? @1850? I'm wanting to build TAC lists and Gargoyles seem like the best way to keep something bogged down a couple turns. How many should I have? Will 2x 15 be enough to take shots going in and still hold my target for a turn or 2? This is for general purposes so I don't really have any examples of what I'd be holding with them.

I almost always run 1 squad of 20. That usually gets you a screen that can cover your entire army for deployment, and one good tarpit. As the number in the squad goes down, the tarpit effectiveness falls as well. 2 squads of 15 might work, but remember gargoyles are not going to be doing much damage. You might consider going with 1 squad, and a Squad of Hormagaunts who are nearly as fast, better in CC, and have objective secured.

 syypher wrote:
4) How many Flyrants is enough @1850 to keep my opponent honest and pressured? I was thinking 3. But I'd have to ally another Tyranid detachment which I don't mind.

It depends entirely on your meta. In my meta, two Flyrants overwhelm almost any opponent I run into that isn't Tau. No-one is running anti-air in my area at all for some reason. I would say that for a Top tier Tyranid list you need 2. 3 is also good. If you take 4, you are running a slightly less balanced list that will have great success against many, many armies, but also has more hard counters, because you don't have enough left for support units like tarpitting gargoyles.

 syypher wrote:
5) How do you guys win on objectives for those of you that use Ripper Swarms as your Troop choices? I know they have Objective secured but with just 2x min units to maximize the rest of our lists... if any of our enemies Objective Secured Super Scoring units survive we'd have a hard time contesting... Seems like Ripper Swarms could easily just be removed and then they proceed to win by 1 Obj.

I disagree with the ripper love. Every single game I've ever taken rippers, I've regretted it. Gants are so much better. That being said, Tyranid troops suck. They are terrible. Really, Really bad. Thankfully, everything is scoring. In an objective game, you might manage to steal one objective away from someone with objective secured, but mainly you will be scoring by eliminating enemy units and then claiming objectives with non-troops.

I honestly think that a good portion of the Ripper love is about playing faster. They are fewer models, and deep strike, so you don't have to deploy them, or move them on early turns. Since gants aren't very good to begin with taken an even worse unit in exchange for a faster game is probably a trade off that many people are willing to take. There is also a band wagoning effect going on, I expect game experiences to start turning people back to Gants eventually.

Here is a battle report by WikkedTiki against a Tau opponent that he has had trouble against. Here is the advice that I gave him before his matchup:

jy2 wrote:

WikkedTiki wrote:Hey man, just read quite a few of your articles for bugs and was asking for some quick opinions. I am new to Warhammer 40k (2-3 months) but have already amassed a good amount of bugs.

I typically play against the same person more often than not and he has a strong Tau army. I have his army list and was wondering if you would mind giving some advice on a list/strategy.

Some typical strategies:

1. You need speed against Tau. A walking list will just get shot off the table, so you need to be able to minimize the as much firepower from him as possible. Thus, I usually go for 1) fast units or 2) units with some range. Fast units include flying Monstrous Creatures and the mawloc. Units with range include biovores. Another unit you can consider is the tyrannofex because of his resiliency.

2. Shooting is the way to go against Tau. It's just too hard to get into assault with them and still be able to survive his firepower (and then Overwatch). I recommend dakka flyrants (with 2x TL-Brainleech Devourers), dakkafexes, biovores and mawlocs. All of these units have the ability to hurt Tau from a distance and still assault them when the opportunity arises (except for the biovores).

If you want more detailed strategies, go ahead and send me his list.

And so here is his battle report. Just wanted to share it with all the bug players who have been having trouble against Tau, one of our harder matchups. Cheers.

BTW, his 2K list:


HQ: Dakka Flyrant, Thorax Hive, Old Adversary
HQ: Dakka Flyrant, Thorax Hive, Hive Commander

Elite: Zoey
Elite: Zoey
Elite: Veno

Heavy: Mawloc
Heavy: Mawloc
Heavy: Dakkafex (twin Brain Leeches)

Troops: 15 Fleshborer 15 Devilgaunts
Troops: Tervigon, Thorax Hive, Crushing Claws
Troops: Ripper Swarm x3 Deep Strike

Fast Attack: 15x Gargoyles

Living Artillery Formation:
Warrior Brood, x3, Barbed Strangler
Biovore Brood, x3
Exocrine


Finally beat my mentor!

Heh, that list of his looks similar to what I run at 1500, minus a few units obviously. My main opponent is Tau as well

Nice! It did well, however i felt like rippers were a waste. I am definitely considering running a Malanthrope since all our places in CO dont care if you run FW or not.

Well, some games rippers will be a waste, in others they could potentially when you the game deep striking and hiding in terrain to hold an objective.

Similar to the Mawloc. Can be an absolute waste of points, but other times is MVB... the thing is these units keep your opponent thinking because they can be game changers. Sometimes against us though

WikkedTiki wrote:
Nice! It did well, however i felt like rippers were a waste. I am definitely considering running a Malanthrope since all our places in CO dont care if you run FW or not.

Malanthropes are boss. Most bug players who were running zoan + venom (like me and a lot of others) are now converting to 1 malanthrope instead. Some are even running 2 malans for redundancy. They are just sooooo good.

As for rippers, personally for me, it is more of a play-style preference more than anything else. Tervigon + 30 termagants are still a good choice and I do run that combo on occassions. But the main reasons why I am running rippers nowadays is because:


1. It gives me more flexibility. I like to play the denial game and having your ObSec troops in reserves able to come anywhere gives my army a lot of flexibility.

2. I run them as cheap scoring options so that I can focus the majority of my points on my offensive units. 2 units of deepstriking rippers are 90-pts. Tervigon + 30-gants are 315-pts minimum. That is 225+ pts I could use to go towards more offense in my list.

3. Usually in our area, we run with the Bay Area Open (BAO) scenarios, which has Eternal War as a Primary scenario and Maelstrom Missions as a Secondary scenario. The mobility of deepstriking rippers really help with the Secondary scenario because you really need mobility of ObSec units in Maelstrom missions. So the use of rippers are designed to work better in the scenarios that we usually play here.

 jy2 wrote:
1. It gives me more flexibility. I like to play the denial game and having your ObSec troops in reserves able to come anywhere gives my army a lot of flexibility.

I would argue that it gives you less flexibility. Perhaps 1 or 2 squads of Rippers, but what about if you need a troop available on turn 1? What if you need something to Eat overwatch for an MC, or screen a Carnifex. Rippers do exactly 1 thing. They Deep strike. Sometimes they hit, sometimes they don't, but they are never going to do more than that for you, so taking only rippers in your army locks you into one strategy that isn't always going to work. You lose flexibility, not gain it.

 jy2 wrote:
2. I run them as cheap scoring options so that I can focus the majority of my points on my offensive units. 2 units of deepstriking rippers are 90-pts. Tervigon + 30-gants are 315-pts minimum. That is 225+ pts I could use to go towards more offense in my list.

I consider Rippers bad, but Tervigons are worse. If those are your only two options, I don't blame you for running Rippers. But there is no reason that has to be. Consider for instance: 10 TGants + 10 HGants. The same price as Rippers, plus they can screen you on turn 1, they can get support from the Malanthrope, and they are more of an offensive threat / tarpit. If someone decides to shoot at them, they are choosing not to shoot at more valuable units. Or 10 HGaunts + 3 Rippers. 5 points more, and you've still got your deep striking troop, but you've also got more deployment flexibility, and early game scoring options. I agree with you that Rippers are cheap. But Gants are also cheap. And, unlike Rippers, gants can contribute throughout the game instead of only at the end, and unlike Rippers they can do so reliably.



[Rant]The Tervigon:
We've got to get away from 5th edition thinking where Tervigons were boss. They are over costed, and extremely so if you are taking them with the Gaunt tax. Outflanking Devil gants is an attempt to turn lemons into lemonade, but still does not justify the Tervigon. Putting Crushing Claws on a Tervigon gives it a role, but there are other, cheaper options that can fill that role. For the same price as a Tervigon you could take a Dakkafex + 11 Termagants. Which seems like a better usage of your points? The Tervigon is a remnant of an age that is passed. Perhaps we can recall fondly the exploits of the Tervigon, but in 7th edition we cannot recreate them. It is time we let go, and forever banish the idea that a Tervigon is a competitive troop selection for a Tyranid list.[/Rant]

tag8833 wrote:
I would argue that it gives you less flexibility. Perhaps 1 or 2 squads of Rippers, but what about if you need a troop available on turn 1? What if you need something to Eat overwatch for an MC, or screen a Carnifex. Rippers do exactly 1 thing. They Deep strike. Sometimes they hit, sometimes they don't, but they are never going to do more than that for you, so taking only rippers in your army locks you into one strategy that isn't always going to work. You lose flexibility, not gain it.

They don't have to Deep Strike - they have the option to.

and unlike Rippers they can do so reliably.

I think Rippers are pretty reliable actually. Even if they scatter it's rarely so far that the unit can't contribute.

[Rant]The Tervigon:
We've got to get away from 5th edition thinking where Tervigons were boss. They are over costed, and extremely so if you are taking them with the Gaunt tax. Outflanking Devil gants is an attempt to turn lemons into lemonade, but still does not justify the Tervigon. Putting Crushing Claws on a Tervigon gives it a role, but there are other, cheaper options that can fill that role. For the same price as a Tervigon you could take a Dakkafex + 11 Termagants. Which seems like a better usage of your points? The Tervigon is a remnant of an age that is passed. Perhaps we can recall fondly the exploits of the Tervigon, but in 7th edition we cannot recreate them. It is time we let go, and forever banish the idea that a Tervigon is a competitive troop selection for a Tyranid list.[/Rant]

No arguments from me.

tag8833 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
1. It gives me more flexibility. I like to play the denial game and having your ObSec troops in reserves able to come anywhere gives my army a lot of flexibility.

I would argue that it gives you less flexibility. Perhaps 1 or 2 squads of Rippers, but what about if you need a troop available on turn 1? What if you need something to Eat overwatch for an MC, or screen a Carnifex. Rippers do exactly 1 thing. They Deep strike. Sometimes they hit, sometimes they don't, but they are never going to do more than that for you, so taking only rippers in your army locks you into one strategy that isn't always going to work. You lose flexibility, not gain it.

I usually run the bastion and put an objective behind it so I never really need my troops on the table. The bastion will always be claiming that objective (or my malanthrope inside). But let's say for the sake of argument, I don't deploy my objective hidden behind my bastion. If I really needed to, I can always deploy 1 unit of rippers on the table behind BLOS terrain (assuming I will put my objective there if I don't put it behind the bastion). As for eating Overwatch, I usually play a shooty Tyranid build (unless I am trying out the dimachaerons) so I don't really think about assault until the opportunity presents itself where I can assault relatively safely without losing my 150+ pt MC after assaulting a screening rhino or something like that. Besides, I will be softening up my target with shooting rather than doing a suicide charge.

Whatever unit is going to charge my "carnifex" (or any other MC) will be doing so after I fire my entire army at it. And then they will probably be charging into my MC out of position relative to my objectives, which means I actually wouldn't care if they charged it. It would just take his assault units more out of position. But more importantly, if I build an assault-based Tyranid list, you can be sure I will be including gargoyles to be used both as a pinning unit (to pin the enemy down) and as a screening unit.

Lastly, rippers deepstrike in and they don't just do "nothing". Ignore them if you want and let them wrack up Maelstrom points as they land on objectives and probably in cover. More likely, you will have to dedicate resources to try to take them out. That means less resources (i.e. "guns") to try to take out my herd of MC's and FMC's coming your way. But more realisically, in non-Maelstrom missions, I will use my Comms Relay to try to keep them in reserves for as long as possible. Leaving about 90-pts of troops in reserves is no biggie to me.

 jy2 wrote:
2. I run them as cheap scoring options so that I can focus the majority of my points on my offensive units. 2 units of deepstriking rippers are 90-pts. Tervigon + 30-gants are 315-pts minimum. That is 225+ pts I could use to go towards more offense in my list.

I consider Rippers bad, but Tervigons are worse. If those are your only two options, I don't blame you for running Rippers. But there is no reason that has to be. Consider for instance: 10 TGants + 10 HGants. The same price as Rippers, plus they can screen you on turn 1, they can get support from the Malanthrope, and they are more of an offensive threat / tarpit. If someone decides to shoot at them, they are choosing not to shoot at more valuable units. Or 10 HGaunts + 3 Rippers. 5 points more, and you've still got your deep striking troop, but you've also got more deployment flexibility, and early game scoring options. I agree with you that Rippers are cheap. But Gants are also cheap. And, unlike Rippers, gants can contribute throughout the game instead of only at the end, and unlike Rippers they can do so reliably.

I consider all Tyranid troops as adding value to the army. But each has its specific uses. Tervigon + termagants are no worse than deepstriking rippers who are no worse than 10 termies + 10 hormies. It all depends on what type of play-style you like. For instance, if you play a walking, shooting tyranid army where most of the bugs are advancing together, than taking screening units to also provide cover makes sense. If you are playing in a meta where you need a lot of ObSec units to combat other ObSec armies, then the tervigon makes a lot of sense. Or if you are playing a denial army like Skyblight where the majority of your army is in the air and there really are no ground targets for your opponent to pick off, then deepstriking rippers really make sense. It's not so much which troops are the best, it's really which troops are the best fit for the playstyle you want to play.

 jy2 wrote:

Tervigon + termagants are no worse than deepstriking rippers who are no worse than 10 termies + 10 hormies. It all depends on what type of play-style you like. How instance, if you play a walking, shooting tyranid army where most of the bugs are advancing together, than taking screening units to also provide cover makes sense. If you are playing in a meta where you need a lot of ObSec units to combat other ObSec armies, then the tervigon makes a lot of sense. Or if you are playing a denial army like Skyblight where the majority of your army is in the air and there really are no ground targets for your opponent to pick off, then deepstriking rippers really make sense. It's not so much which troops are the best, it's really which troops are the best fit for the playstyle you want to play.

Actually, Tervigon+Termagants are much worse than deepstriking Rippers, who are much worse than two 10man squads of termies / horms. It's not all about playstyle, this is 40k, not all models are made equal and the balancing was very subject to human error. The only playstyle that encompasses taking a Tervigon at 2000 points, is "friendly". Rippers aren't as bad as Terriblegons sorry Tervigons, because they don't waste many more points than Terms, but Terms at least fill a role for 40 points a squad and give two points bonus cover to any of your MC's except any FMC's are too tall. The synapse-less scoring is so overrated, how many other armies do you see wasting points on useless troop choices just for this. They only really make sense in Skyblight imo, for a combination of reasons, least of which being target priority as it really isn't an investment that matters hugely either way (80 points of Termagants or 90 of Rippers, do you really need to build around keeping them alive?), its mainly because the Termagants won't be providing cover to anything relevant (a Venomthrope generally), and they will probably always be out of Synapse, making Rippers the next best option in this regard. Then again, Skyblight in general is just kneecapping the potential of the codex, so the fact that they work in Skyblight does not necessarily make them any more competitive in my eyes.

I will say Tervigon is good at 750-1000 points, where the Spawned Gants are much more relevant. Any higher and the effectiveness drops off, any lower and the investment cost is too much. He has his use. It's not in 2000 point games however :/ talk about liability.

Do y'all think that Living Artillery has surpassed Skyblight as the best formation with the changes to FMCs? I've been extremely underwhelmed with crones and harpies in the new edition.

Double flyrants, LAN formation, 4 dakkafexen, 1 or 2 malanthropes, and screening guants seems like a solid build to me.

Thoughts?

I think that's where most lists are going Sam.

Although, I think that if tournament gave players 3 options for "sources" this is the ultimate list Tyranids could use:

Dual Flyrants (one with e grubs)
Malanthrope
2 units of deep striking rippers
2 single dakkafexen
A mawloc
The Living Artillery Formation
And........
The Knight Errant

Boom.

Cool, I'll probably work towards something similar to that. It's hard to stomach the $ cost of three biovores though!

What does the living artillery formation do? Where do you get the data slate for this?

 syypher wrote:
What does the living artillery formation do? Where do you get the data slate for this?

Living Artillery
1 Excocrine, 3 Biovores, 1 Tyranid Warrior Brood and comes with Organic Bombardment which gives all ranged weapons pinning and the ability to re-roll scatter dice on blast and barrage weapons.

It comes as part of this: http://www.blacklibrary.com/games-workshop-digital-editions/Dataslate-Tyranid-Invasion.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chaplain Sam wrote:
Do y'all think that Living Artillery has surpassed Skyblight as the best formation with the changes to FMCs? I've been extremely underwhelmed with crones and harpies in the new edition.

Double flyrants, LAN formation, 4 dakkafexen, 1 or 2 malanthropes, and screening guants seems like a solid build to me.

Thoughts?

Crones are still a useful unit. Basically a more mobile Tyrannofex. Harpies are the real tax of skyblight. On the other hand skyblight has Objective secured, recycling gargoyles. Since gargoyles are one of our better units, that is a very cool thing.

Living Artillery is the way I'm going, but I think Tourneys will still see Skyblight often. It blows people out, and there are few hard counters (Serpent spam, Tau). Tau is seeing a downward trend, and so the main fear is serpent spam. The reason Skyblight is likely to still perform better in tourneys is that it can rack up a much larger margin of victory than Living Artillery. In tourneys where battle points matter, skyblight will continue to perform well.

tag8833 wrote:
Source Power Rating Formation Name Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 1 Very Weak Lictor Forest Brood Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 1 Very Weak Manufactorum Genestealers Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 1 Weak Deathleaper's Assasin Brood Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 1 Very Weak Broodlord's Hunting Pack Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 1 Very Weak Gargoyle Bio-Bombs Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 2 Weak Incubator Node Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 2 Very Weak Synaptic Swarm Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 2 Strong Skyblight Swarm Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 2 Strong Living Artillery Node Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 2 Moderate Endless Swarm Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 3 Moderate Bioblast Node Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 3 Weak Wrecker Node Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 3 Weak Tyrant Node Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 3 Weak Subterranean Swarm Dataslate: Tyranid Onslaught, Rising Leviathan 3 Weak Living Tide

I'd question some of those. My thoughts and reasoning:

Lictor Forest Brood is awesome for 3+ cover saves and the ability to sneak in amongst enemy lines I'd say moderate to strong.

Manufactorum Genestealers - moderate. You're probably giving up First Blood by using them, because even with ruins, scattering 5-strong stealer broods in amongst the enemy line means at least one will get the flambe treatment. The thing that makes them worthwhile? Firstly as a distraction unit, secondly - whilst you can't add more stealers, you can add broodlords, and 5 broodlords in the enemy backfield from turn 1 is more of a threat than you're giving them credit for.

Deathleaper's assassin brood... yeah, Weak is fine. Paranoia and Ill-Discipline stacks well with It's After Me, but you need to have a means in hand for exploiting that leadership penalty or it's kind of pointless. Getting a Psychic Scream unit (winged tyrant, probably?) into the midst of the enemy makes it a lot nicer, but you can't rely on getting that power.

Broodlord's Hunting Pack - Incredibly strong. This formation alone makes genestealers a scary-ass unit. Note that unlike the manufactorum broods, they aren't using scout, or infiltrate, or deep strike, or entering from reserves. In short, they can deploy 7" from the enemy and ther is nothing preventing them from making a first turn charge (with the Horror from the broodlord removing initiative penalty for charging into terrain and preventing you firing overwatch). Plus they have preferred enemy on their first victims to boot. Put a ruin just outside the enemy deployment zone and watch what these boys do...

Gargoyle Biobombs - yeah...cool idea but seems a touch pointless. If I want spore mines in the right place, deep striking, biovores, or harpies strike me as a better idea.

Incubator Node - pointless. You've lost objective secured on the tervigon, it's more likely to run out, and you still need as many bugs to field one.

Synaptic Swarm - weak 6" synapse boost is good but you need so many to field the formation it becomes redundant. If you have that many warriors you have massively reduntant synapse cover anyway.

Skyblight Swarm - Strong - Essentially, you're taking a winged swarm and swapping 2 x 3 deep striking ripper swarms for 3 broods of respawning gargoyles (good) but you only get one tyrant (bad). I think a flyer-heavy combined arms detachment is still probably going to be better.

Living Artillery Node - Strong -blast weapon artillery is the best stuff bugs have, and rerolling scatter just makes it better.
Bioblast Node - Strong - makes dakkafexes killier. This is a scary thing.

Endless Swarm - weak - moderate with trygon support. This is a simple question: your termagants/hormagaunts get wiped out on turn 2. They respawn and enter from your board edge turn 3. How long do you expect it to be before they get close enough to the enemy to achieve anything? With a trygon tunnel or two in the enemy lines, this becomes a damn sight better, though, as you can express-line reinforcements into the centre of the battle.

Wrecker Node - weak - melee carnifex weak hence formation built around melee carnifex also weak.

Tyrant Node Moderate - if you take a tyrant on foot, do you not take tyrant guard and a venomthrope? Hence you have the components of this formation already and might as well get the effect of an expensive relic (the norn crown) for free...

Subterranean Swarm - Moderate. Trygons are okay, Mawlocs are awesome. Three simultaneous broods of raveners arriving simultaneously with no scatter will hurt like hell - provided you've spent points on ranged weapons.

Living Tide - too big for any normal game. Irrelevant.

locarno24 wrote:

Broodlord's Hunting Pack - Incredibly strong. This formation alone makes genestealers a scary-ass unit. Note that unlike the manufactorum broods, they aren't using scout, or infiltrate, or deep strike, or entering from reserves. In short, they can deploy 7" from the enemy and ther is nothing preventing them from making a first turn charge (with the Horror from the broodlord removing initiative penalty for charging into terrain and preventing you firing overwatch). Plus they have preferred enemy on their first victims to boot. Put a ruin just outside the enemy deployment zone and watch what these boys do...

I don't own the dataslates, but I thought that the Broodlord's Hunting pack read something along the lines of "Any unit in this Formation arriving from Reserve can set-up in any unoccupied Building or in Ruins as long as they are set-up more than 6" away from any enemy unit. " I'd love to be wrong...