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2014/10/13 20:14:47
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
gigasnail wrote: Running 4 flyrants is kind of the opposite of putting all of your eggs in one basket.
960 points of Flyrants isn't all your eggs in one basket? That's usually over half of your list in 24 3+ save flying wounds.
More like 16 (only 4W IIRC) but yes, it is very dangerous. Three at most IMO.
With four, it's unlikely you'll get decent ground support to take and hold objectives unless you land the Flyrants...why would you want to do that mid game?
That is one of the reasons why I prefer deepstriking rippers as my troops and units such as mawlocs. They give you much more flexibility, especially in Maelstrom-type games/scenarios. Mobility is key to any army, including bugs. That's the main reason why Skyblight is still competitive and that's the reason why people like Hulksmash run a Tyranid Airforce in competitive play, with deepstriking ripper troops. BTW, the cornerstone of all of these highly mobile Tyranid armies is the flyrant. They just don't work without it.
In short, the best reason why 4 flyrants isn't putting all your eggs in one basket is because they can do just about everything. The only thing they're not great against is high toughness models like a wraithknight, and even then I've put down 2 in a single game just with volume of fire (with only 3 flyrants mind you). They have anti-armor, volume of fire, decently high strength, good durability and excellent mobility. What more could you ask for? Well maybe the freedom to assault whenever haha, but that would be pretty broken. Finally, especially in a tournament/TAC setting, as jy2 has mentioned on numerous occasions, a list like that is a pretty hard counter to many TAC lists, but it itself is TAC. So you can do well against most tournament armies because they simply don't bring that much AA, but you're just loving life shooting at ground or air targets as you please.
QFT (quoted for truth).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/13 20:27:24
I just had been wipe out by single grey knight model!!!
Currently, our my elitist "Nidzilla" builds don't really matchup up well against the grey knights. That is because force weapons do bad things to our bugs. However, the knights will potentially have problems with our flyrants as well as with our horde builds. In any case, here are a few suggestions:
1. Target priority. Generally, try to pick off the units that you can more efficiently kill. For those you can't, use other methods such as screening and tarpitting.
True....
2. Gang up on the unit. Do not direct your offense all over the place. If you can, try to focus down on 1 unit. Instead of putting 2W on 2 different dreadknights, just kill that 1 dreadknight instead.
Yeah! That "single model" was a Dreadknight with flamer launcher I never heard before... Doh..
3. Screen out. For some of the more dangerous units, if you can, screen them out. That's what your gribblies are for.
Deep strike rippers swarms?
4. Tarpit. If you've brought a horde (or semi-horde list), your horde is always a threat to tarpit his units. If you can, then do so.
Yeah I have lots of gaunt and hornagant include rippers.
5. Play the Mission! While it may be fun to go for the kill, the Hive Mind is more evolved than that. Always keep in mind what your missions objectives are and don't get carried away with just killing stuff (unless that is the mission objective).
Yeah!!! I keep going after that last Brood to capture a VP! Me 10 VP vs grey knight 14VP!!!! Accord to VP I was winner until turn 5!!! Nnnnoooo! Heh.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/13 21:32:11
2014/10/14 01:02:00
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
That is one of the reasons why I prefer deepstriking rippers as my troops and units such as mawlocs. They give you much more flexibility, especially in Maelstrom-type games/scenarios. Mobility is key to any army, including bugs. That's the main reason why Skyblight is still competitive and that's the reason why people like Hulksmash run a Tyranid Airforce in competitive play, with deepstriking ripper troops. BTW, the cornerstone of all of these highly mobile Tyranid armies is the flyrant. They just don't work without it.
In short, the best reason why 4 flyrants isn't putting all your eggs in one basket is because they can do just about everything. The only thing they're not great against is high toughness models like a wraithknight, and even then I've put down 2 in a single game just with volume of fire (with only 3 flyrants mind you). They have anti-armor, volume of fire, decently high strength, good durability and excellent mobility. What more could you ask for? Well maybe the freedom to assault whenever haha, but that would be pretty broken. Finally, especially in a tournament/TAC setting, as jy2 has mentioned on numerous occasions, a list like that is a pretty hard counter to many TAC lists, but it itself is TAC. So you can do well against most tournament armies because they simply don't bring that much AA, but you're just loving life shooting at ground or air targets as you please.
QFT (quoted for truth).
Are you allowed to quote someone quoting you? I'm actually very interested to see how Hulksmash's list with the Daemon and Tyranid FMC plays out. If they had psychic synergy between the factions, I think everyone would do it. As is, I'm not sure that I see the benefit of Daemons over more Tyranid air force (except for single CAD limitations, but even then I would wonder if Skyblight doesn't do the job better)
2014/10/14 01:49:11
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
I will not use FW models (Ripoff) or Unbound (Cheesy)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Right. How do I beat Tau who gunline and camp Submunition Railheads in the corners of the board? The guy is running...
"It's not putting all your eggs in one basket, because it wins a lot of games!"
No, it's still putting all your eggs in one basket lol.
Nobody is saying that putting all your eggs in one basket means you won't win games, it just means that there is a massive weakness to be exploited in your list.
The comment that I don't agree that Flyrants are good is far from the truth, every list I run has 2, they are quite simply the best Synapse unit and HQ we have, that much is undeniable. However, there is a massive price tag attached to that and taking 4 extremely lowers the offensive output of your list. And remember that taking the second 2 comes at another 100 pt tax requiring 2 more troop squads that although not useless, you would not otherwise want them. Yeah it's putting all your eggs in one basket, and not even as TAC as other lists, you are going to autolose to mech Flyer spam like the new DE dex that can pack 9 flyers into one FOC (probably more like 6-7 considering points, but still a lot), you are going to severely be at a disadvantage against any other TAC list that inherently has good AA (Tau is a good example) and most TAC lists should have some decent form of AA against whom, if you can focus it down first turn, then you might just break-even with how a true TAC ground Nid list would do against them, although just as often wasting your target priority on something often extremely cheap and durable (quad-gun), assuming you are able to bring it down before it does too much damage. The games where it will outperform other Nid builds are against armies that ccant bring AA, chose not to, or just have a concept far too focused on their own devices to pack any decent amount of counters (Screamerstar from last edition is an easy example of this from the top of my head).
So while Flyerspam will roflstomp some matchups, it will have a really hard time/autolose vs some others. The other competitive Tyranids build doesn't autolose to a single matchup in the game that Flyerspam doesn't also, the notable one it will have trouble with that Flyrants do not is Knights, but even that is still winnable. So while Ground based Nids may not autowin some match ups, I would prefer to have a list that can win every match up dependant on playskill, to a list that has a big advantage vs some lists, big disadvantage vs others, and dependant on playskill for the remainder. Because of this, Flyrant is NOT a TAC build at all, in fact out of our two main competitive builds it is by far the less balanced build.
People need to stop throwing buzzwords around that aren't applicable. Just because it wins a lot of tournament games, does not make it the TAC build for Nids when it is by definition NOT building a TAC list. However what it is, is It's putting all your eggs in one basket, and once again, winning tournament games doesn't make this any less true. Nobody said it won't win a lot of games, in fact it will be favoured in a good few match ups that Ground lists won't. However, it also has all the unfavourable match ups of a ground list as well as many more. The number of good matches for bad ones you trade is probably about even, however this is in no way shape or form, makin your list more TAC.
Just had to get that out of the way and explained once and for all, because all this buzzwording of terms that may or may not even be applicable to defend against sensible counter points is detrimental to good strategy discussion.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/14 03:57:19
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/10/14 02:12:00
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Are you allowed to quote someone quoting you? I'm actually very interested to see how Hulksmash's list with the Daemon and Tyranid FMC plays out. If they had psychic synergy between the factions, I think everyone would do it. As is, I'm not sure that I see the benefit of Daemons over more Tyranid air force (except for single CAD limitations, but even then I would wonder if Skyblight doesn't do the job better)
Went 4-1. Lost my first game on it going to 7 and due to me making a few huge mistakes. Main one being I forgot that I dispelled on a 4+ not a 6+ and it cost me my KoS and 8 Horrors to psychic shriek. Then proceeded to massacre the next 3 and have a major victory in the last cause it ended on 5.
Outside of that I loved it. Summoning was huge in conjunction with the Crones & Hive Tyrants. It allows you a very, very solid ground presence to use with the cheap Tyranid flyers. The whip Prince did some work but I think I'm going to be shifting back to an LoC and Tzeentch DP. The Whip Prince didn't add enough to outweigh the vulnerability of the KoS.
New list is going to look something like this:
Hive Tyrant Wings, 2xDual Devourers
Hive Tyrant Wings, 2xDual Devourers
Venomthrope Zoanthrope Zoanthrope
3 Rippers Deepstrike
3 Rippers Deepstrike
Crone Crone
Lord of Change Lvl 3
11 Horrors
8 Screamers
Daemon Prince Wings, Tzeentch Mark, Lvl 3
The only thing I'm considering dropping is the Screamers but I'm not 100% and I'm not totally sure what I'd swap them out for
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/14 02:13:30
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
2014/10/14 04:01:09
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
SHUPPET wrote: "It's not putting all your eggs in one basket, because you can still win games with it!"
No, it's still putting all your eggs in one basket lol.
Nobody is saying that putting all your eggs in one basket means you won't win games, it just means that there is a massive weakness to be exploited in your list.
The comment that I don't agree that Flyrants are good is far from the truth, every list I run has 2, they are quite simply the best Synapse unit and HQ we have, that much is undeniable. However, there is a massive price tag attached to that and taking 4 extremely lowers the offensive output of your list. And remember that taking the second 2 comes at another 100 pt tax requiring 2 more troop squads that although not useless, you would not otherwise want them. Yeah it's putting all your eggs in one basket, and not even as TAC as other lists, you are going to autolose to mech Flyer spam like the new DE dex that can pack 9 flyers into one FOC (probably more like 6-7 considering points, but still a lot), you are going to severely be at a disadvantage against any other TAC list that inherently has good AA (Tau is a good example) and most TAC lists should have some decent form of AA against whom, if you can focus it down first turn, then you might just break-even with how a true TAC ground Nid list would do against them, although just as often wasting your target priority on something often extremely cheap and durable (quad-gun), assuming you are able to bring it down before it does too much damage. The games where it will outperform other Nid builds are against armies that ccant bring AA, chose not to, or just have a concept far too focused on their own devices to pack any decent amount of counters (Screamerstar from last edition is an easy example of this from the top of my head).
So while Flyerspam will roflstomp some matchups, it will have a really hard time/autolose vs some others. The other competitive Tyranids build doesn't autolose to a single matchup in the game that Flyerspam doesn't also, the notable one it will have trouble with that Flyrants do not is Knights, but even that is still winnable. So while Ground based Nids may not autowin some match ups, I would prefer to have a list that can win every match up dependant on playskill, to a list that has a big advantage vs some lists, big disadvantage vs others, and dependant on playskill for the remainder. Because of this, Flyrant is NOT a TAC build at all, in fact out of our two main competitive builds it is by far the less balanced build.
People need to stop throwing buzzwords around that aren't applicable. Just because it wins a lot of tournament games, does not make it the TAC build for Nids when it is by definition NOT building a TAC list. However what it is, is It's putting all your eggs in one basket, and once again, winning tournament games doesn't make this any less true. Nobody said it won't win a lot of games, in fact it will be favoured in a good few match ups that Ground lists won't. However, it also has all the unfavourable match ups of a ground list as well as many more. The number of good matches for bad ones you trade is probably about even, however this is in no way shape or form, makin your list more TAC.
Just had to get that out of the way and explained once and for all, because all this buzzwording of terms that may or may not even be applicable to defend against sensible counter points is detrimental to good strategy discussion.
Shuppet, I think you're misunderstanding me. I must not be making my point clearly. When I say that a quad-flyrant list is a good TAC list I mean that it is good against other TAC lists. Yes, tau will give it trouble. Tau are problematic for Nids in general. However, it's worth pointing out that with the changes to Skyfire and Interceptor, it became more expensive and niche for even Tau to deal with flyer spam. Their Skyrays are excellent though. Your example of DE Flyer spam is not, however, a TAC list. The DE flyers are worse than they were in the old dex. Flyer spam is not their most competitive build because it has serious vulnerabilities, not the least of which is the necessity to get the drop on other air units. Otherwise, the planes are going to fold like a wet paper bag.
I'd certainly be interested to know what match-ups you think are good for a ground list that are bad for a flyrant list? And when you say that you sacrifice offense with two more flyrants, what are you proposing that add more offense? Carnifexes? I like them for sure, but they are slow and lack range. Whereas a carnifex has an effective threat range of 24", the flyrant has a 42" threat range. Although Carnifexes are about half the cost of a flyrant, it will take, on average, six times as many shots to bring a flyrant down. That's not even taking into account synapse, mobility, better CC ability, and psychic powers that can buff you or hurt the enemy. Oh and that haywire flamer (ignores cover remember). It's like the malanthrope - the list of good things about a Flyrant just goes on and on.
As for the troop tax that 4 flyrants impose, I find little issue taking 4 troops at 1750/1850. Feels like the right amount to me. Especially since they are so durable per wound. I understand that you have a personal preference towards a more ground-based list - that's completely fine. However, in my experience, most of the time Skyblight and Quad-Flyrants will obliterate any opposing anti-air, leaving the Tyranid flyers (which are the majority of the army) free to move around relatively unmolested. The fact that they can rinse and repeat this procedure against a great many TAC armies is why they are considered TAC (and why they win many games). Just like how the Eldar Wave Serpent is a great TAC unit that finds its way into lists because it can do so many things well, so too is our Flyrant a great TAC unit, and spamming it as much as possible, with the proper support, can still make a very good TAC army. I hope this effectively adds to good strategy discussion
2014/10/14 05:36:01
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
it's not really a liability when it's already arguably the best and most versatile unit in the codex. there's no troop tax to taking 4 flyrants for me; i'm already running 3-4 ripper units so it's all the same.
the only reason i don't run 4 flyrants is because we don't do dual CAD here often; though self-ally seems to be in.
2014/10/14 13:00:40
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Just ordered a Dimachaeron. Its to paint and sell, but I will certainly try it out in a game or two for giggles.
Less than two weeks until Mechanicon and Im running out of ways to practice. My shift work got extended so I cant make it to the weekend high traffic games, I can just play against Serpent Spam at home. They wont have the new Dark Eldar to go against so I have no WWP woes to worry about, but since its my first GT I dont think I should go in with too many expectations.
3. Screen out. For some of the more dangerous units, if you can, screen them out. That's what your gribblies are for.
Deep strike rippers swarms?
Although rippers can also be used as screeners - and I have done that before - normally, you have to play it differently with rippers. With rippers, it's more about positioning. I call it Misdirection. Here is how I play my rippers.
First of all, when you play objectives, spread them out (preferable behind LOS blocking terrain or in ruins). Do not place them bunched up or centralized. Rather, spread them to the 4 corners.
Then, I usually place my "core" either in the center and away from the objectives or just by 1 of the objectives. BTW, the core of my army usually includes my bastion, malanthrope and perhaps some gargoyles or biovores. Now you have to play your "core" as actual sacrificial units. They will be "bait" for your opponent's offense. You may lose your "core" but that is ok. In this case, your core is actually a distraction unit(s). He should be moving his offense towards it unless he is running a shooty army.
Then when your rippers come in, deepstrike them onto the far objectives and then run them out of LOS of shooty units if possible. Unless your opponent's army is highly mobile (a la Necrons, FMC-spam or serpent-spam Eldar), he will now be out of position with regards to the objectives and you will have the advantage. BTW, this is basically my philosophy of Positional Dominance - if you can control the Movement Phase, then you will inherently have an advantage in Objectives-based scenarios.
BTW, the core of my army usually includes my bastion, malanthrope and perhaps some gargoyles or biovores.
Ah, the Bastion. is it worth it? I would think so however I ask for your opinion.
I have a tournament in November and d I'm struggling with what to take.
the restrictions for the tournament are basically;
1750 pts
No Come the Apocalypse Allies
LOW are allowed but may not cost more than 400 pts - No Hierodule for me :[
1 CAD only - No Self Alllies
1 Formation allowed.
Forge World allowed.
Fortifications allowed.
Missions will be Eternal War only with 3 unique secret objectives:-
Survive - nominate one of your units and keep them alive for the duration of the game
Destroy - nominate one of your enemy units and destroy it before the game is done.
Take and Hold- nominate a piece of terrain and have a unit inside it at the end of the game.
you can only use one objective per game.
So, with that in mind, can I viably run the below list? Would you run it?
That is one of the reasons why I prefer deepstriking rippers as my troops and units such as mawlocs. They give you much more flexibility, especially in Maelstrom-type games/scenarios. Mobility is key to any army, including bugs. That's the main reason why Skyblight is still competitive and that's the reason why people like Hulksmash run a Tyranid Airforce in competitive play, with deepstriking ripper troops. BTW, the cornerstone of all of these highly mobile Tyranid armies is the flyrant. They just don't work without it.
In short, the best reason why 4 flyrants isn't putting all your eggs in one basket is because they can do just about everything. The only thing they're not great against is high toughness models like a wraithknight, and even then I've put down 2 in a single game just with volume of fire (with only 3 flyrants mind you). They have anti-armor, volume of fire, decently high strength, good durability and excellent mobility. What more could you ask for? Well maybe the freedom to assault whenever haha, but that would be pretty broken. Finally, especially in a tournament/TAC setting, as jy2 has mentioned on numerous occasions, a list like that is a pretty hard counter to many TAC lists, but it itself is TAC. So you can do well against most tournament armies because they simply don't bring that much AA, but you're just loving life shooting at ground or air targets as you please.
QFT (quoted for truth).
Are you allowed to quote someone quoting you? I'm actually very interested to see how Hulksmash's list with the Daemon and Tyranid FMC plays out. If they had psychic synergy between the factions, I think everyone would do it. As is, I'm not sure that I see the benefit of Daemons over more Tyranid air force (except for single CAD limitations, but even then I would wonder if Skyblight doesn't do the job better)
You can quote me quoting you quoting me any day, buddy.
I think Hulk's list has a place and is potentially very good. Anytime you can add free units to your army, you are boosting it significantly because you are forcing your opponent to allocate his resources into killing those free units. That just makes your army more survivable and gives them more time to do more damage.
On that note, the tervigon - unlike what many are claiming as garbage - is still a good unit. He is no longer the all-star that he used to be in our previous edition, but he is still a solid choice in most Tyranid armies.
Went 4-1. Lost my first game on it going to 7 and due to me making a few huge mistakes. Main one being I forgot that I dispelled on a 4+ not a 6+ and it cost me my KoS and 8 Horrors to psychic shriek. Then proceeded to massacre the next 3 and have a major victory in the last cause it ended on 5.
Outside of that I loved it. Summoning was huge in conjunction with the Crones & Hive Tyrants. It allows you a very, very solid ground presence to use with the cheap Tyranid flyers. The whip Prince did some work but I think I'm going to be shifting back to an LoC and Tzeentch DP. The Whip Prince didn't add enough to outweigh the vulnerability of the KoS.
New list is going to look something like this:
Spoiler:
Hive Tyrant
Wings, 2xDual Devourers
Hive Tyrant
Wings, 2xDual Devourers
Venomthrope
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
3 Rippers
Deepstrike
3 Rippers
Deepstrike
Crone
Crone
Lord of Change
Lvl 3
11 Horrors
8 Screamers
Daemon Prince
Wings, Tzeentch Mark, Lvl 3
The only thing I'm considering dropping is the Screamers but I'm not 100% and I'm not totally sure what I'd swap them out for
That would be what I would run as well if I were to do a Tyranid/Daemon combo - go with Tzeentch. The LoC is probably the best greater non-named daemon currently.
BTW, the core of my army usually includes my bastion, malanthrope and perhaps some gargoyles or biovores.
Ah, the Bastion. is it worth it? I would think so however I ask for your opinion.
I have a tournament in November and d I'm struggling with what to take.
the restrictions for the tournament are basically;
1750 pts
No Come the Apocalypse Allies
LOW are allowed but may not cost more than 400 pts - No Hierodule for me :[
1 CAD only - No Self Alllies
1 Formation allowed.
Forge World allowed.
Fortifications allowed.
Missions will be Eternal War only with 3 unique secret objectives:-
Survive - nominate one of your units and keep them alive for the duration of the game
Destroy - nominate one of your enemy units and destroy it before the game is done.
Take and Hold- nominate a piece of terrain and have a unit inside it at the end of the game.
you can only use one objective per game.
So, with that in mind, can I viably run the below list? Would you run it?
I take the bastion because it is a great force-multiplier that makes your army such much more durable. Without it, you may not survive the alpha-strike of some armies.
I also take it because you will need it against some of the top armies - Drop pod marines, Tau and Eldar serpent-spam. You will definitely see these types of armies in competitive play and without the bastion, your malanthrope/venomthrope will die on Turn 1 and the rest of the army will be much easier to kill.
Now if you don't care about LOS-blocker, then you can go for the cheaper Imperial Bunkers in the Stronghold Assault book. Also, if you've got the Stronghold Assault, you can add a Void Shield to your bastion/bunker, thus making your army even more survivable.
With regards to your list, if you want to play competitively, drop the dimachaeron for the bastion and some gargoyles. Dimey is fun and pretty-to-look-at, but unfortunately, he is NOT a competitive unit. Now that doesn't mean he can't work in a competitive list. It just means that he is more one-dimensional and more matchup-dependent then many of hte other units in the codex. Against the wrong army (and this will happen more often than not), he won't contribute much at all.
I will not use FW models (Ripoff) or Unbound (Cheesy)
Tau is a tough matchup for bugs generally. Against them, you have to have 2 things - mobility and firepower. Yes, that's right, firepower. Assault bugs just don't fare well against the new Tau. What you need to do is to overload them with fast units that can also shoot the bejesus out of them. Units such as dakka flyrants and mawlocs with their long reach are ideal against Tau. Biovores are also good due to their long reach and ability to kill Tau troops out in the open without any saves. Gargoyles are good as they are a threat to tarpit those riptides/suits. In short, if you have to walk towards them, then most likely you are going to lose. If you can fly towards them and get to them really quickly, then you have a fighting chance.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/14 18:33:14
While I agree with the LoC being the best non-named GD for the Tyranid support the Slaanesh DP is the better unit. But having adjusted to take more WC that will allow me to shoot a bit more I'm much more inclined to shift back to the LoC for the survivability aspect.
Overall having only played the version I brought to Michigan once before I'm extremely happy with it.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
2014/10/14 19:06:15
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
I take the bastion because it is a great force-multiplier that makes your army such much more durable. Without it, you may not survive the alpha-strike of some armies.
I also take it because you will need it against some of the top armies - Drop pod marines, Tau and Eldar serpent-spam. You will definitely see these types of armies in competitive play and without the bastion, your malanthrope/venomthrope will die on Turn 1 and the rest of the army will be much easier to kill.
Now if you don't care about LOS-blocker, then you can go for the cheaper Imperial Bunkers in the Stronghold Assault book. Also, if you've got the Stronghold Assault, you can add a Void Shield to your bastion/bunker, thus making your army even more survivable.
With regards to your list, if you want to play competitively, drop the dimachaeron for the bastion and some gargoyles. Dimey is fun and pretty-to-look-at, but unfortunately, he is NOT a competitive unit. Now that doesn't mean he can't work in a competitive list. It just means that he is more one-dimensional and more matchup-dependent then many of hte other units in the codex. Against the wrong army (and this will happen more often than not), he won't contribute much at all.
Let's just assume I cannot part with the Dima due to emotional needs, then what would you suggest to cut out? I know and should have said that I am aware of the Dima's capabilities being limited (so my bad for not mentioning that!) but I want to run it to see what it does against a larger array of players. ( so far its been very hit and miss vs Eldar and Marines. )
2014/10/14 19:13:44
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
SHUPPET wrote: "It's not putting all your eggs in one basket, because it wins a lot of games!"
No, it's still putting all your eggs in one basket lol.
Nobody is saying that putting all your eggs in one basket means you won't win games, it just means that there is a massive weakness to be exploited in your list.
Spoiler:
The comment that I don't agree that Flyrants are good is far from the truth, every list I run has 2, they are quite simply the best Synapse unit and HQ we have, that much is undeniable. However, there is a massive price tag attached to that and taking 4 extremely lowers the offensive output of your list. And remember that taking the second 2 comes at another 100 pt tax requiring 2 more troop squads that although not useless, you would not otherwise want them. Yeah it's putting all your eggs in one basket, and not even as TAC as other lists, you are going to autolose to mech Flyer spam like the new DE dex that can pack 9 flyers into one FOC (probably more like 6-7 considering points, but still a lot), you are going to severely be at a disadvantage against any other TAC list that inherently has good AA (Tau is a good example) and most TAC lists should have some decent form of AA against whom, if you can focus it down first turn, then you might just break-even with how a true TAC ground Nid list would do against them, although just as often wasting your target priority on something often extremely cheap and durable (quad-gun), assuming you are able to bring it down before it does too much damage. The games where it will outperform other Nid builds are against armies that ccant bring AA, chose not to, or just have a concept far too focused on their own devices to pack any decent amount of counters (Screamerstar from last edition is an easy example of this from the top of my head).
So while Flyerspam will roflstomp some matchups, it will have a really hard time/autolose vs some others. The other competitive Tyranids build doesn't autolose to a single matchup in the game that Flyerspam doesn't also, the notable one it will have trouble with that Flyrants do not is Knights, but even that is still winnable. So while Ground based Nids may not autowin some match ups, I would prefer to have a list that can win every match up dependant on playskill, to a list that has a big advantage vs some lists, big disadvantage vs others, and dependant on playskill for the remainder. Because of this, Flyrant is NOT a TAC build at all, in fact out of our two main competitive builds it is by far the less balanced build.
People need to stop throwing buzzwords around that aren't applicable. Just because it wins a lot of tournament games, does not make it the TAC build for Nids when it is by definition NOT building a TAC list. However what it is, is It's putting all your eggs in one basket, and once again, winning tournament games doesn't make this any less true. Nobody said it won't win a lot of games, in fact it will be favoured in a good few match ups that Ground lists won't. However, it also has all the unfavourable match ups of a ground list as well as many more. The number of good matches for bad ones you trade is probably about even, however this is in no way shape or form, makin your list more TAC.
Just had to get that out of the way and explained once and for all, because all this buzzwording of terms that may or may not even be applicable to defend against sensible counter points is detrimental to good strategy discussion.
Just want to make 1 important distinction here. There is a difference between being balanced and being a Take-All-Comer's build. However, the 2 are not mutually exclusive. That is, if the list is not balanced, it doesn't mean that it isn't a TAC list and vice versa (just because it is a TAC list doesn't mean that it has to be a completely balanced list). TAC is relative to the type of army you want to run, whether balanced or not. For example, you can have a TAC deathstar list, which is a perfect example of an unbalanced Take-All-Comer's list. Basically, to be a TAC army, you need to be able to handle multiple threats:
How do you handle horde?
How do you handle Elite units such as MC's or other deathstars?
How do you handle mech-spam?
How do you handle heavy armor, including knights and land raiders?
How do you handle flyers?
How can you grab objectives?
How can you survive superior enemy firepower?
How can you deal with enemy assault units, including enemy deathstars?
How can you deal with enemy psychic powers?
What can you do when you lose a key component of your army (i.e. army redundancy)?
If you can answer most of these questions with the right tools in your army, then you've got a TAC army list.
In essence, a triple-flyrant/quad-flyrant list is a semi-deathstar list. Here you've got 720-pts in just 3 units (or 960-pts in just 4 units). But if you can build your army and still answer the above questions, then you've got yourself a TAC list. Now this is how a flyrant-spam list would handle those questions:
How do you handle horde?
Dakka firepower. Perhaps biovores, hive crone templates and pure VoF (volume-of-fire).
How do you handle Elite units such as MC's or other deathstars?
Dakka firepower, VoF, coordinated assault, mawloc burrowing or just get the hell away from them.
How do you handle mech-spam?
Dakka firepower, egrubs, vector-strikes or assault by MC's.
How do you handle heavy armor, including knights and land raiders?
Egrubs, vector-strikes or assault by MC's.
How do you handle flyers?
Dakka firepower, vector-strikes, hive crone haywires.
How can you grab objectives?
Gliding MC's, deepstriking rippers, mawlocs.
How can you survive superior enemy firepower?
Swooping MC's, malan/venom-in-box, malan/venom-out-of-box.
How can you deal with enemy assault units, including enemy deathstars?
Swooping MC's, screening units, tarpits, get the hell out of dodge.
How can you deal with enemy psychic powers?
More psyshic dice due to flyrants, Shadows.
What can you do when you lose a key component of your army (i.e. army redundancy)?
Multiple flyrants.
While I agree with the LoC being the best non-named GD for the Tyranid support the Slaanesh DP is the better unit. But having adjusted to take more WC that will allow me to shoot a bit more I'm much more inclined to shift back to the LoC for the survivability aspect.
Overall having only played the version I brought to Michigan once before I'm extremely happy with it.
Yeah, it's a trade-off between survivability and firepower. Slaanesh has potentially greater firepower, but Tzeentch is definitely more survivable.
But what seals the deal for me is Tzeentch's mobility. There's just no comparison here. The KoS is much slower and more predictable where he will summon daemon units. The LoC can just zip onto an objective, summon troops there, and then zip onto another objective. I call it pin-point Summoning.
I take the bastion because it is a great force-multiplier that makes your army such much more durable. Without it, you may not survive the alpha-strike of some armies.
I also take it because you will need it against some of the top armies - Drop pod marines, Tau and Eldar serpent-spam. You will definitely see these types of armies in competitive play and without the bastion, your malanthrope/venomthrope will die on Turn 1 and the rest of the army will be much easier to kill.
Now if you don't care about LOS-blocker, then you can go for the cheaper Imperial Bunkers in the Stronghold Assault book. Also, if you've got the Stronghold Assault, you can add a Void Shield to your bastion/bunker, thus making your army even more survivable.
With regards to your list, if you want to play competitively, drop the dimachaeron for the bastion and some gargoyles. Dimey is fun and pretty-to-look-at, but unfortunately, he is NOT a competitive unit. Now that doesn't mean he can't work in a competitive list. It just means that he is more one-dimensional and more matchup-dependent then many of hte other units in the codex. Against the wrong army (and this will happen more often than not), he won't contribute much at all.
Let's just assume I cannot part with the Dima due to emotional needs, then what would you suggest to cut out? I know and should have said that I am aware of the Dima's capabilities being limited (so my bad for not mentioning that!) but I want to run it to see what it does against a larger array of players. ( so far its been very hit and miss vs Eldar and Marines. )
If you're not willing to give up the Dimey, then you may have to break up Living Artillery. If you don't want to do that, then you're just not going to be able to fit in both the bastion and some gargoyles. So it's either the offensive benefits that LA brings to the army, or the defensive benefits that the bastion and gargoyles can bring to the army. Make your choice.
BTW, I feel that the bastion synergizes very well with LA. Put the malantrope in the bastion and then the biovores on the battlements for 2+ cover or hide them behind the bastion.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/10/14 22:27:32
Are you allowed to quote someone quoting you? I'm actually very interested to see how Hulksmash's list with the Daemon and Tyranid FMC plays out. If they had psychic synergy between the factions, I think everyone would do it. As is, I'm not sure that I see the benefit of Daemons over more Tyranid air force (except for single CAD limitations, but even then I would wonder if Skyblight doesn't do the job better)
Went 4-1. Lost my first game on it going to 7 and due to me making a few huge mistakes. Main one being I forgot that I dispelled on a 4+ not a 6+ and it cost me my KoS and 8 Horrors to psychic shriek. Then proceeded to massacre the next 3 and have a major victory in the last cause it ended on 5.
Outside of that I loved it. Summoning was huge in conjunction with the Crones & Hive Tyrants. It allows you a very, very solid ground presence to use with the cheap Tyranid flyers. The whip Prince did some work but I think I'm going to be shifting back to an LoC and Tzeentch DP. The Whip Prince didn't add enough to outweigh the vulnerability of the KoS.
New list is going to look something like this:
Hive Tyrant
Wings, 2xDual Devourers
Hive Tyrant
Wings, 2xDual Devourers
Venomthrope
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
3 Rippers
Deepstrike
3 Rippers
Deepstrike
Crone
Crone
Lord of Change
Lvl 3
11 Horrors
8 Screamers
Daemon Prince
Wings, Tzeentch Mark, Lvl 3
The only thing I'm considering dropping is the Screamers but I'm not 100% and I'm not totally sure what I'd swap them out for
Glad to hear how it went Hulk. Do you think the crones and the six flyers are what make the list work or do you think something like this would be successful?
GUO - ML3
horrors x11
DP of Nurgle ML 3 Greater gift
That is just under 1750. For 1850 I think another 2 zoans. I would worry about kill point missions but I should have a solid base in the middle and a lot of strength 6 shots.
Couple questions. Have the screamers done will for AT? I would worry that 8 and no grimoire would not survive very long as most of the other stuff you have in the list is flying but I guess screamers usually hit one target then are wiped out after the initial charge.
Have you thought about Fatey? I know he cannot get summoning unless I missed an erreta but his ML4 for only another 35 points and his ability to reroll one dice can be huge each turn. Now 35 points might be tough to find. Did you think about a Mawloc instead of the screamers?
Words of wisdom by Prophet40k
That game put my faith in Khorne to the test. My table-neighbor looked at the match up and said "Here you're going to need these more than I will" and handed me a bag of Jello shots. They must have pleased Khorne because I walked out 11-2.
Now looking at another list with MORE tyrants and MORE mawlocks, I said to myself. "Oh well looks like it's time for another beer. It'll take the sting out of this. LOL"
2014/10/14 20:02:33
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
I think the Crones are a big part of the ability to deal with Knights. Between their haywire and St8 AP2 vectors they are hugely helpful in forcing shield directions and putting out damage.
This weekend it was only 5 FMC's and it worked pretty well. The main reason for adding the 6th is because of how vulnerable the KoS turned out to be. I like the GUO more for survivability but his prince doesn't add enough for me to want to take him over the Tzeentch DP or Slaanesh DP.
As for the screamers the reason I'm considering dropping them is they are extremely hit or miss for me. One game they just get curb stomped/wiped to almost not use and the next game they destroy 3 Serpents or hold up a soulgrinder for 8 rounds of CC while killing a Maulerfiend or murder 5-man after 5-man of marines. They're a threat but I just don't know if I can justify them for the return.
I'm not a fan of Fatey. I use the Daemons as summoning platforms and that's pretty much it. Fatey and Belakor are support when you're running other Daemon FMC's.
I've considered a Mawloc. He's on the list of things I'm thinking about. Also considering biovores, another harpy/crone, more horrors, 20 slaanesh furies, some fortifications, etc. Really the list is pretty long on what I could do with 200 more points. Even under a single CAD and Ally allowance.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
2014/10/14 21:47:53
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
3. Screen out. For some of the more dangerous units, if you can, screen them out. That's what your gribblies are for.
Deep strike rippers swarms?
Although rippers can also be used as screeners - and I have done that before - normally, you have to play it differently with rippers. With rippers, it's more about positioning. I call it Misdirection. Here is how I play my rippers.
First of all, when you play objectives, spread them out (preferable behind LOS blocking terrain or in ruins). Do not place them bunched up or centralized. Rather, spread them to the 4 corners.
Then, I usually place my "core" either in the center and away from the objectives or just by 1 of the objectives. BTW, the core of my army usually includes my bastion, malanthrope and perhaps some gargoyles or biovores. Now you have to play your "core" as actual sacrificial units. They will be "bait" for your opponent's offense. You may lose your "core" but that is ok. In this case, your core is actually a distraction unit(s). He should be moving his offense towards it unless he is running a shooty army.
Then when your rippers come in, deepstrike them onto the far objectives and then run them out of LOS of shooty units if possible. Unless your opponent's army is highly mobile (a la Necrons, FMC-spam or serpent-spam Eldar), he will now be out of position with regards to the objectives and you will have the advantage. BTW, this is basically my philosophy of Positional Dominance - if you can control the Movement Phase, then you will inherently have an advantage in Objectives-based scenarios.
1) What if your opponent has made a move to control the objective area ahead of turn 5 when you plan to win?
2) What if your opponent knows what they are doing and doesn't take the bait?
3) What if your run into another bait and hide army?
It seems like your version of "Positional Dominance" is quite a bit like my version of "surrendering board control to your opponent". It really feels like a gimmick of a strategy that depends too much on predicting what your opponent is planning on doing. I prefer a much more versatile strategy that allows me to have a board presence. My general goal is to keep my opponent bottled up in their deployment zone. If things go poorly for central board control, I can still starfish out, and since I don't have any "Bait" units, and any critical units I can overcome setbacks without losing the game if my opponent doesn't cooperate with my pregame strategy. An added benefit about maintaining board control is that you don't need the game to end of 5 to win it. You can win on 6 & 7 as well.
I'm not saying that you can't win games by surrendering board control to your opponent. You will beat the snot out of less skill players, the kind who forget it is an objective game until turn 5. It is sometimes our only chance against top tier gunlines like Tau and Eldar. But if you go in, locked into that strategy, you deny yourself victories that you could have otherwise had. I feel like it is a clear "Plan B" strategy for when you know things are about to fall apart. Thanks to the Malanthrope, we don't have to pull out Plan B nearly as often.
2014/10/14 21:56:49
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
I think the Crones are a big part of the ability to deal with Knights. Between their haywire and St8 AP2 vectors they are hugely helpful in forcing shield directions and putting out damage.
This weekend it was only 5 FMC's and it worked pretty well. The main reason for adding the 6th is because of how vulnerable the KoS turned out to be. I like the GUO more for survivability but his prince doesn't add enough for me to want to take him over the Tzeentch DP or Slaanesh DP.
As for the screamers the reason I'm considering dropping them is they are extremely hit or miss for me. One game they just get curb stomped/wiped to almost not use and the next game they destroy 3 Serpents or hold up a soulgrinder for 8 rounds of CC while killing a Maulerfiend or murder 5-man after 5-man of marines. They're a threat but I just don't know if I can justify them for the return.
I'm not a fan of Fatey. I use the Daemons as summoning platforms and that's pretty much it. Fatey and Belakor are support when you're running other Daemon FMC's.
I've considered a Mawloc. He's on the list of things I'm thinking about. Also considering biovores, another harpy/crone, more horrors, 20 slaanesh furies, some fortifications, etc. Really the list is pretty long on what I could do with 200 more points. Even under a single CAD and Ally allowance.
What do you find yourself summoning as is most of the time? I'm sure that this varies from one situation to another greatly, but what have you found most useful? As for your idea about dropping the Screamers, it's not a bad idea unless they're supported. If you don't have a way to get them the Grimoire or shrouding, they can be pretty vulnerable. The mobility is incredibly enticing though.
2014/10/14 22:20:00
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
3. Screen out. For some of the more dangerous units, if you can, screen them out. That's what your gribblies are for.
Deep strike rippers swarms?
Although rippers can also be used as screeners - and I have done that before - normally, you have to play it differently with rippers. With rippers, it's more about positioning. I call it Misdirection. Here is how I play my rippers.
First of all, when you play objectives, spread them out (preferable behind LOS blocking terrain or in ruins). Do not place them bunched up or centralized. Rather, spread them to the 4 corners.
Then, I usually place my "core" either in the center and away from the objectives or just by 1 of the objectives. BTW, the core of my army usually includes my bastion, malanthrope and perhaps some gargoyles or biovores. Now you have to play your "core" as actual sacrificial units. They will be "bait" for your opponent's offense. You may lose your "core" but that is ok. In this case, your core is actually a distraction unit(s). He should be moving his offense towards it unless he is running a shooty army.
Then when your rippers come in, deepstrike them onto the far objectives and then run them out of LOS of shooty units if possible. Unless your opponent's army is highly mobile (a la Necrons, FMC-spam or serpent-spam Eldar), he will now be out of position with regards to the objectives and you will have the advantage. BTW, this is basically my philosophy of Positional Dominance - if you can control the Movement Phase, then you will inherently have an advantage in Objectives-based scenarios.
1) What if your opponent has made a move to control the objective area ahead of turn 5 when you plan to win?
2) What if your opponent knows what they are doing and doesn't take the bait?
3) What if your run into another bait and hide army?
It seems like your version of "Positional Dominance" is quite a bit like my version of "surrendering board control to your opponent". It really feels like a gimmick of a strategy that depends too much on predicting what your opponent is planning on doing. I prefer a much more versatile strategy that allows me to have a board presence. My general goal is to keep my opponent bottled up in their deployment zone. If things go poorly for central board control, I can still starfish out, and since I don't have any "Bait" units, and any critical units I can overcome setbacks without losing the game if my opponent doesn't cooperate with my pregame strategy. An added benefit about maintaining board control is that you don't need the game to end of 5 to win it. You can win on 6 & 7 as well.
I'm not saying that you can't win games by surrendering board control to your opponent. You will beat the snot out of less skill players, the kind who forget it is an objective game until turn 5. It is sometimes our only chance against top tier gunlines like Tau and Eldar. But if you go in, locked into that strategy, you deny yourself victories that you could have otherwise had. I feel like it is a clear "Plan B" strategy for when you know things are about to fall apart. Thanks to the Malanthrope, we don't have to pull out Plan B nearly as often.
My philosophy of Positional Dominance basically is board control. However, Tyranids are no longer as great in doing that as they used to be, back when they had the Swarmlord commanding the army and tervigons spouting forth almost unlimited and super-charged gribblies. Nowadays, you just can't take on Imperial Knights and deathstar armies head-on. You can't survive a ground trek towards Mechdar, Tau or the Astra Militarum. You can't control the board when certain armies like White Scar bikers and Dark Eldar can just skirt around you while pelting you to death with their firepower. You need to play a smarter game and you need to adjust to your opponent's army.
Positional Dominance isn't just about clogging up the middle. While board control is an aspect of Positional Dominance, P.D. is more than just that. It is controlling your opponent's movement, whether that be controlling the middle or using misdirection to take him out of position or by forcing him to castle up and play defensively or by forcing him to split up his army when he would prefer to keep them together. If you can control the Movement of your opponents, then you will have an inherent advantage because you will be in position to claim the objectives and he will be out of position.
Now Tyranids are not the only army that can control the Movement phase. Many other armies can as well. Beaststars, the seer council, Necron wraith-spam, bargelords, wave serpents, windrider jetbikes - Eldar and Necrons are the true Masters of the Movement phases. Thus, Tyranids can be beaten in their own game, especially if they are running a predominantly ground-&-pound type of list. But if they are running flyer-heavy builds with reserve troops, then they are better able to deal with these types of high-level, top-tier armies. They have a type of flexibility that ground bugs just do not have.
Anyways, to get back to your questions:
1) What if your opponent has made a move to control the objective area ahead of turn 5 when you plan to win?
You go after their objective-holders with your flyrants, mawlocs and other shooting. Take away their ability to score, especially with the ObSec ones. When I go up against an army like the seer council, my flyrants go to pick out the jetbike troops while I feed my council a sacrificial unit a turn. And I don't wait until Turn 5 to do so. I go after them as soon as they come into the game.
2) What if your opponent knows what they are doing and doesn't take the bait?
That's fine. Then they can shoot at flying flyrants, which experienced players will be doing anyways. Against more experienced players, put your "core" by 1 objective to force them to go after it. Otherwise, you score that objective. In any case, whether they go for your "core" units or not, your flyrants will still be doing most of the heavy lifting and harassment of the enemy units.
3) What if your run into another bait and hide army?
So what? As long as your target prioritization is correct, you still go for units that matter. Keep in mind that your strategy is not reliant on your opponent going after your "bait" units. If they go after it, then good. If not, then you don't really lose much, as it is only about 150-pts of support units. More importantly, your flyrants have the mobility to quickly switch targets, to re-adjust your strategies and to re-position themselves in a more advantageous position, something that many other armies just don't have the flexibility to do.
That is true of Fatey and Belakor...if only BB. I am curious to see how my walking dakka fexes will do. I know I am slow and only have three flyers but I am hoping I can use summoning from the GUO to keep screeners in front of them. I have all the GD and and DP that can be any of the three minus Khorne. Does Khorne still have an army? I am curious to see if the Nurgle DP can be effective in assault as he has zero shooting and can still get 2+ with jinking while gliding.
Have you toyed with khorne puppies or steeds of slaanesh? I just worry steeds will melt to volume of fire with no grimoire. But oh the charge...
@luke1705
My guess is Daemonettes or Khorne puppies as they are very versatile.
@j2y and tag8833
Thank you for the discussion it is great to get additional perspectives.
Words of wisdom by Prophet40k
That game put my faith in Khorne to the test. My table-neighbor looked at the match up and said "Here you're going to need these more than I will" and handed me a bag of Jello shots. They must have pleased Khorne because I walked out 11-2.
Now looking at another list with MORE tyrants and MORE mawlocks, I said to myself. "Oh well looks like it's time for another beer. It'll take the sting out of this. LOL"
2014/10/14 23:38:18
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
I think the Crones are a big part of the ability to deal with Knights. Between their haywire and St8 AP2 vectors they are hugely helpful in forcing shield directions and putting out damage.
This weekend it was only 5 FMC's and it worked pretty well. The main reason for adding the 6th is because of how vulnerable the KoS turned out to be. I like the GUO more for survivability but his prince doesn't add enough for me to want to take him over the Tzeentch DP or Slaanesh DP.
As for the screamers the reason I'm considering dropping them is they are extremely hit or miss for me. One game they just get curb stomped/wiped to almost not use and the next game they destroy 3 Serpents or hold up a soulgrinder for 8 rounds of CC while killing a Maulerfiend or murder 5-man after 5-man of marines. They're a threat but I just don't know if I can justify them for the return.
I'm not a fan of Fatey. I use the Daemons as summoning platforms and that's pretty much it. Fatey and Belakor are support when you're running other Daemon FMC's.
I've considered a Mawloc. He's on the list of things I'm thinking about. Also considering biovores, another harpy/crone, more horrors, 20 slaanesh furies, some fortifications, etc. Really the list is pretty long on what I could do with 200 more points. Even under a single CAD and Ally allowance.
What do you find yourself summoning as is most of the time? I'm sure that this varies from one situation to another greatly, but what have you found most useful? As for your idea about dropping the Screamers, it's not a bad idea unless they're supported. If you don't have a way to get them the Grimoire or shrouding, they can be pretty vulnerable. The mobility is incredibly enticing though.
I'm normally summoning Daemonettes most. Some horrors but that's normally only when I feel I have time to build up to more stuff. Generally though it's Daemonettes and Tzeentch Heralds (if I roll it). I have 20 Plaguebearers for anti-knight but didn't run into to many of them. I might have grabbed some Khorne Dogs from time to time but I haven't converted any up yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @nightwrench
Steeds & Hounds to replace the Screamers? Not really. I feel they both would probably melt for not that many wounds. But I'm more open to the hounds than the screamers. And even more open to 165pts for 20 Slaanesh Furies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/14 23:41:57
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
2014/10/15 00:02:30
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
I think the Crones are a big part of the ability to deal with Knights. Between their haywire and St8 AP2 vectors they are hugely helpful in forcing shield directions and putting out damage.
This weekend it was only 5 FMC's and it worked pretty well. The main reason for adding the 6th is because of how vulnerable the KoS turned out to be. I like the GUO more for survivability but his prince doesn't add enough for me to want to take him over the Tzeentch DP or Slaanesh DP.
As for the screamers the reason I'm considering dropping them is they are extremely hit or miss for me. One game they just get curb stomped/wiped to almost not use and the next game they destroy 3 Serpents or hold up a soulgrinder for 8 rounds of CC while killing a Maulerfiend or murder 5-man after 5-man of marines. They're a threat but I just don't know if I can justify them for the return.
I'm not a fan of Fatey. I use the Daemons as summoning platforms and that's pretty much it. Fatey and Belakor are support when you're running other Daemon FMC's.
I've considered a Mawloc. He's on the list of things I'm thinking about. Also considering biovores, another harpy/crone, more horrors, 20 slaanesh furies, some fortifications, etc. Really the list is pretty long on what I could do with 200 more points. Even under a single CAD and Ally allowance.
What do you find yourself summoning as is most of the time? I'm sure that this varies from one situation to another greatly, but what have you found most useful? As for your idea about dropping the Screamers, it's not a bad idea unless they're supported. If you don't have a way to get them the Grimoire or shrouding, they can be pretty vulnerable. The mobility is incredibly enticing though.
I'm normally summoning Daemonettes most. Some horrors but that's normally only when I feel I have time to build up to more stuff. Generally though it's Daemonettes and Tzeentch Heralds (if I roll it). I have 20 Plaguebearers for anti-knight but didn't run into to many of them. I might have grabbed some Khorne Dogs from time to time but I haven't converted any up yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @nightwrench
Steeds & Hounds to replace the Screamers? Not really. I feel they both would probably melt for not that many wounds. But I'm more open to the hounds than the screamers. And even more open to 165pts for 20 Slaanesh Furies.
Is it just the points per model for the slaanesh furies and the fact they have such a large footprint? I agree on the steeds and without invisibility/grim they are melted the hounds you get more models for the points and wounds but more of a tarpit unit. I do not know if I a super excited on fast attack without support from the psychic phase or the grim.
I assume you roll only on summoning and go for 1, 4 or 5?
Words of wisdom by Prophet40k
That game put my faith in Khorne to the test. My table-neighbor looked at the match up and said "Here you're going to need these more than I will" and handed me a bag of Jello shots. They must have pleased Khorne because I walked out 11-2.
Now looking at another list with MORE tyrants and MORE mawlocks, I said to myself. "Oh well looks like it's time for another beer. It'll take the sting out of this. LOL"
2014/10/15 00:10:19
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
I'll take 6 if it's the horrors or new heralds. I mostly aim for 4 and then take primaris. 1 is good but not something I get to worked up over. My DP is almost always only going to roll once unless he rolls a 4 and then he'll roll a second time. The other one is reserved for Psychic Shriek which is amazing in conjunction with Shadows.
5 is good but not one I was going for but that's mostly because they ruled at the last event that we don't benefit from psychic focus as well as chaos focus so I had to swap stuff out for the base summoning spell.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
2014/10/15 04:46:44
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
I got beat pretty bad by a necron list tonight. A destroyer Lord made an epic ton of 2+ saves tanking 3 dakkfexes and a flyrant turn 1, then assaulted and Killed a dakkafex, a Malanthrope, and 20 Gargoyles. I rolled really poorly on the carnifex and never even caused a wound. Then came out of assault and help kill my bastion. That was bad enough, but on his turn 2 a Monolith ate one of my full health flyrants. Strength test, always fail on 6's. That left me significantly out gunned when his Flyers came in. My other flyrant hung in for another 2 turns but my exocrine failed 5 of 6 3+ armors saves. We were playing BAO mission and it would have been 5 (primary + Line Breaker) to 6 (secondary, plus first blood, Linebreaker, and warlord) on turn 5. It went on to turn 6, and he got a perfect 10. Kinda humiliating.
I saw that Monolith on the table, and I was sure I would win this game. Nothing went my way.
I feel like more than any other army, bad dice can hurt me against necrons. Part of it is that when a necron players gets hot rolling 6's those wounds pile up fast. I wish I could figure out a list or tactical tweak that made me a little more consistent against necrons.
I know this isn't a Necron Tactica thread, but I really feel like Necrons matchup much better against us when they don't have barge lords. They are good, but so pricey. It frees them up to add a few more flying crescent rolls which are really good for their points, and can deliver Ob sec and Dakka quickly to quite a bit of the board.
For those that care, here are the lists:
Spoiler:
CAD Tyrant (2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs, Wings)
Tyrant (2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs, Wings)
It sounds like you got cursed by the dice gods man, nothing to be ashamed of at all. When you start losing tyrants to single 6's and cant make any armor saves theres not much to be done.
Iechine wrote: It sounds like you got cursed by the dice gods man, nothing to be ashamed of at all. When you start losing tyrants to single 6's and cant make any armor saves theres not much to be done.
If I played that game again, and had better dice I might indeed win it, but I want to work on strategies that aren't so dependent on dice to win games.
2014/10/15 13:08:21
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Iechine wrote: It sounds like you got cursed by the dice gods man, nothing to be ashamed of at all. When you start losing tyrants to single 6's and cant make any armor saves theres not much to be done.
If I played that game again, and had better dice I might indeed win it, but I want to work on strategies that aren't so dependent on dice to win games.
Iechine wrote: It sounds like you got cursed by the dice gods man, nothing to be ashamed of at all. When you start losing tyrants to single 6's and cant make any armor saves theres not much to be done.
If I played that game again, and had better dice I might indeed win it, but I want to work on strategies that aren't so dependent on dice to win games.
I assume you mean you want to limit the amount of randomness that happens when you start rolling d6's. In my last game I had my warlord flying in ruins with a venomthrope within 6 inches and the flyrant about 6 inches away from the enemy Khorne Warlord coming out of a LR with a squad. I failed my last 2+ cover save and then promptly got grounded. what I should have done was place him 3 more inches away behind the ruins because my target for his shooting and synapse was to the right of the ruins not in front. I had the right idea, wrong placement that made me lose my warlord and gave him a secondary obj, and a primary obj as it was kill points which made me rely on making to many saves. On the positive I smashed his warlord in the challenge as he killed me as well.
Words of wisdom by Prophet40k
That game put my faith in Khorne to the test. My table-neighbor looked at the match up and said "Here you're going to need these more than I will" and handed me a bag of Jello shots. They must have pleased Khorne because I walked out 11-2.
Now looking at another list with MORE tyrants and MORE mawlocks, I said to myself. "Oh well looks like it's time for another beer. It'll take the sting out of this. LOL"
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
I'm actually very interested to see how Hulksmash's list with the Daemon and Tyranid 
