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My malanthrope is usually only useful the first two turns. Alpha strike protection, turn 2 gargoyles are usually still in safe bubble, past that its just carnifexes he's moving with and I'm fine with people shooting at him.

 gigasnail wrote:
i run two single mals and a single venom at 1850. it stops you from having to cluster around one unit, makes it less of a big deal when you have bad luck, and takes longer to focus down.

Even just a Malanthrope and a Venomthrope give you a chance to maximize Master of Ambush if you get that warlord trait. A Venom + 2 Dakkafexes infiltrated into a ruins with a flyrant, and you've got your own alpha strike power. Plus, your non-infiltrating flyrant can advance to the shrouded bubble of this venom on turn 1.

i run 1 mal/1 venom at lower points. from 1750 to 1850, there wasn't enough room to add much else.

 Iechine wrote:
Of course things can go well for a good player in an environment that allows it. Terv is still 6 wounds and reproducing, Dima is still a beast in CC. Its not a list Id want to take simply on the grounds it starts with 50 small bodies I have to move in a tournament. : /

This, more or less. People acting like something less efficient cannot do well, and because someone does well with something it must be a good way to go.

Yes, he did well with this list, but whats to say he wouldn't have done even better with a better list? I don't think that 4 Flyrants is the only way to go nor do I think it is the best way to go, however it's definitely a top tier build and better than this list lol. I'd rather use logic and individual assessments of a units worth to judge how to create a good build, not just look to see if anyone does well with something and assume that he must have a good build if he did. There is an extraordinarily low sample of high level games to take note of making the legitimacy of such statistics pretty useless. If a sample of 100,000 Tyranid games showed people with Tervigon's and Dima's doing better than people with 4 Flyrants, they might have some bearing. As it stands, that's just 7 games which could have been decided by anything at all, might be that he took a Tervigon and a Dima instead of more Flyrants or Carnifexes, or maybe that had a minor role in every match up and actually hurt his chances, might just be that his opponents had similar wildcard lowtier units in their lists as well, might be that he just rolled better, his opponents made bad decisions, he got lucky match ups, his opponents fethed up the mission objectives like he did first game, he has insane pokerfacebluffing skills forcing a lot of bad prioritization from his opponents, any number of things. Until I see the logic that Tervigons are good models, I am going to continue playing lists that make sense to me strategically, rather than using other peoples success as a defensive point for bad models, and I'd urge anyone who takes the competitive side of Tyranids seriously, to do the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:
I've got a general question. I see 1 Malanthrope showing up in every list. I almost always lose a single Malanthrope in every game these days. Sometimes that and some gargoyles are all I lose in a game. Some of that has to do with my local meta being well trained and coached by me to beat tyranids. If I was running a ground pound army like the one above, I would want a 2nd Malanthrope so that I have flexibility in deployment and my army doesn't start falling apart when I lose 1 model.

I'm curious that not only do most tyranid players seem to run only one Malanthrope, but also they never seem to lose them. Do you think that as the general player base adapts, we will start seeing more people sniping out Malanthropes before firing fruitlessly into 2+ cover?

A single Malan in a bastion is one thing, but if you are making the long walk, and/or hoping for Master of Ambush, a 2nd Malanthrope would seem to be called for.

I run nothing but a single Venomthrope. I know right, no malanthropes, crazy! Pretty different to most, but then again - where others have two Malanthropes instead, I have an extra Carnifex. Does it die quickly? Obviously. But at 45 points, having LoS blocked by a Dakkafex pack or at the very least covered for a 3+ save, and in the early stages that is often 1 or two full units shooting that it absorbs, well and truly making its points back for me every game. Against anything with cover ignoring weaponry (my two most challenging opponents are, surprise surprise, a competitive Eldar and a competitive Tau player), I am not bringing a 1300 pt army to 1500 pt game. I feel like Malanthrope is pretty overrated, its a good model but not this auto-include musthave that many make it out to be, and taking 2 is really biting into a lot of points.

i was hesitant to run two of them as well because of the price tag. i've been pretty happy with them so far, but like with your example above, it's hardly conclusive proof of anything.

tag8833 wrote:

The Tervigon formation is called "Incubator Node"
1 Tervigon and 3 termagant broods and gain the Hyper-Progenitive special rule. This allows you to re-roll ones when spawning termagants. This means you clog up sooner, but are more consistent in the number of gants generated.

So the Gant Tax is still firmly in place, plus the gants and tervigon aren't Objective Secured if they come via an Incubator Node, so I feel like this formation actually has more penalties that bonuses, and I wouldn't recommend it.

The lack of OS and the rapid clog up is why I had to drop this one out of the running for an end of year tourney that allows unlimited unique formations/detachments. I really wanted it, but lack of OS just kills it.

 gigasnail wrote:
i was hesitant to run two of them as well because of the price tag. i've been pretty happy with them so far, but like with your example above, it's hardly conclusive proof of anything.

Yeah, and I don't think there really is a conclusive answer. It''s probably a lot to personal preference, but I do think it's easy to forget the tax that comes from those supporting units to your actual army. I don't think that malanthropes is a good idea for my list, when I want my Synapse to come with free rolls for Onslaught / Catalyst / Paroxysm as opposed to amalgamating in with my Venom, but even in the lists that I don't want Zopes I think I'd rather be upgrading a Gant squad to some Warriors for a Cannon and something a bit more threatening in CC as well and survivable, even if it does come at the cost of my Venom being SLIGHTLY easier to kill than a Malanthrope (although lets be honest, the main thing keeping both alive is the cover save). This is my personal preference so I'd never give someone advice "leave the Malanthropes at home because you are doing it the wrong way", however I do think at the very least they are on par as a competitive options to taking a Malanthrope, yet I see the opposite advice being given out, such as "all lists need Malanthropes and Flyrants", the Flyrants yes, the Malanthropes, meh, debatable and far from a NECESSARY purchase.

Update to this: apparently the tournament does allow Forge World, but no superheavies or gargantuans from FW, so the Hierodule is out :(

the good news is, this gives me 565 points to spend, the bad news is, there really is no decent replacement for the Hierodule long distance firepower :(
So, next try:

--CAD
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs

3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike

1 Malanthrope
3 Hive Guard

Hive Crone
15 Gargoyles

Mawloc
Mawloc

-- Living artillery
3 Tyranid Warriors: barbed strangler

3 Biovores
Exocrine

Comes to 1735 points currently, also plays a bit different I guess. I'm not sure about the Gargoyles in this list though, might it be worth it to replace them with some Shrikes to hunt Wraithknights and such?

All opinions welcome!

I'd drop the HG for a second Crone. Crone just much better AT especially in multiples. Neither are excellent though. Solid list otherwise.

I just had a blast playing a 1850 pt fluff army game. I brought a ridiculous list against Ravenguard w/ an inquisitor, and actually won.

I took

Tyranid Alpha w/LW BS
2x Venomthrope
2x Zoanthrope
2x Lictor
30 Gants
Tervigon
8 Warriors (Rending claws, adrenal glands, 1 cannon, 1 lwbs, rest devourers)
Crone
Trygon Prime w/Reaper
Mawloc
Tyrannofex

My warrior brood was pretty devastating in all of its combats, and tervigon never stopped spawning. Crone hit with all of its haywire attacks, and Mawloc destroyed 8 tactical marines...I pretty much had excellent rolls the entire time. It was a lot of fun using bad units that have been collecting dust.

That's wicked awesome. Good for you mate. I enjoy using Warriors where possible, but it's challenging. Did you attach the Prime to the Warriors for increased WS?

Yep, had a Warrior death star.

Silly lists are fun when both players bring them.

 Iechine wrote:
Yep, had a Warrior death star.

Silly lists are fun when both players bring them.

Warrior deathstar?



I want to here more about that! That sounds rad!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polkadragon wrote:



Update to this: apparently the tournament does allow Forge World, but no superheavies or gargantuans from FW, so the Hierodule is out :(

the good news is, this gives me 565 points to spend, the bad news is, there really is no decent replacement for the Hierodule long distance firepower :(
So, next try:

--CAD
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs

3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike

1 Malanthrope
3 Hive Guard

Hive Crone
15 Gargoyles

Mawloc
Mawloc

-- Living artillery
3 Tyranid Warriors: barbed strangler

3 Biovores
Exocrine



Comes to 1735 points currently, also plays a bit different I guess. I'm not sure about the Gargoyles in this list though, might it be worth it to replace them with some Shrikes to hunt Wraithknights and such?

All opinions welcome!

Sounds like you have the exact same issues as me not to mention list! ( minus Hive gaurd and gargoyles)

Double Mawloc's is where it's at!
Edit; I have used too many exclamation marks in my excited.

I'm sure some of you guys have read Bigpig's tactics thread about what he calls the "Trapdoor Spider", either on Frontlinegaming or over on Tyranid Hive Proboards. I've seen some ideas over in both of those places (and I know many of us lurk in more than just one forum) but I'm curious to hear what you guys think about this play style. It sounds very interesting.

But going a little further down the rabbit hole, how would you guys go about this type of play style if you decided to try it, even just hypothetically? What units would you use? How would they function with respect to the rest of your army (in case it's not obvious).

For those of you who haven't read the article, I'd highly recommend it, even just as a tactical approach to try in certain situations. To give a 60 second overview, the strategy hinges on the Malanthrope (or Venomthrope) giving much of your army a 2+ cover save, which is easier done than most people think. The part where the strategy diverges from what most people do is in the fact that it waits. Your army sits in the shrouded bubble (which I have affectionately termed "shroudstar") and makes the opponent come to you. You wait in your fortress of solitude until turn 3 or 4 being just ridiculously durable and doing what you can at range. If they come to you, you can pounce when the time is right, having taken very few casualties since you didn't have to march across the board - your opponent did it for you! How considerate of them.

The question of course then becomes - why on earth would they come to me? What can I do to get them to come to me? The first question is more common than most people think, since even if they get within 24 inches of you, which most armies will have to do, then you can strike with everything whenever you want. If they're outside of 24", your firepower is somewhat reduced, but we do still have Biovores, the Barbed Hierodule if your group allows it, and the Exocrine/Hive Guard have some reach (although they won't likely be dueling with 36" range units).

Even if they won't ever want to come to you, do they have 2+ cover? Probably not. In short, you can likely win a war of attrition, whittling down what you need to while taking almost no damage in return. In short, I definitely want to try this.

This only works if there are few objectives and just the right army. Otherwise weight of fire WILL kill your Malanthrope. It's also a great way to give up a free Flyrant.

 Iechine wrote:
This only works if there are few objectives and just the right army. Otherwise weight of fire WILL kill your Malanthrope. It's also a great way to give up a free Flyrant.

You could always make the Flyrant fly while benefitting from the cover for at least 2 turns. And while you can (and likely will) lose the Malanthrope, have you gotten first blood before them? You very well may have, especially if you can somewhat keep the Malanthrope out of LOS (like in a bastion). Also, at whatever point the Malanthrope finally dies, have you gained an advantage? If you've killed more of them than 85 points, I'd say so. And that's assuming they go straight for the lynchpin. Even if he just lasts 2 or 3 turns, the whole rest of your army is probably still pretty intact and ready to go grab objectives while weathering roughly half as much shooting as they otherwise would have, just by the virtue of it being later in the game. It certainly won't work in every situation against every army, but it's a nice arrow to have in your quiver nonetheless.

My builds all depend on Venomthrope cover, MC durability, and screening units. I'm quite fond of a few Tyrannofexes in 3+ (or better!) Cover, they can take a heck of a lot of punishment. Similar to this TDS strategy, but I remain moving all game.

But I'm firmly in the 'big, slow durable' Tyranid playstyle. So ymmv.

luke1705 wrote:
I'm sure some of you guys have read Bigpig's tactics thread about what he calls the "Trapdoor Spider", either on Frontlinegaming or over on Tyranid Hive Proboards. I've seen some ideas over in both of those places (and I know many of us lurk in more than just one forum) but I'm curious to hear what you guys think about this play style. It sounds very interesting.

But going a little further down the rabbit hole, how would you guys go about this type of play style if you decided to try it, even just hypothetically? What units would you use? How would they function with respect to the rest of your army (in case it's not obvious).

For those of you who haven't read the article, I'd highly recommend it, even just as a tactical approach to try in certain situations. To give a 60 second overview, the strategy hinges on the Malanthrope (or Venomthrope) giving much of your army a 2+ cover save, which is easier done than most people think. The part where the strategy diverges from what most people do is in the fact that it waits. Your army sits in the shrouded bubble (which I have affectionately termed "shroudstar") and makes the opponent come to you. You wait in your fortress of solitude until turn 3 or 4 being just ridiculously durable and doing what you can at range. If they come to you, you can pounce when the time is right, having taken very few casualties since you didn't have to march across the board - your opponent did it for you! How considerate of them.

The question of course then becomes - why on earth would they come to me? What can I do to get them to come to me? The first question is more common than most people think, since even if they get within 24 inches of you, which most armies will have to do, then you can strike with everything whenever you want. If they're outside of 24", your firepower is somewhat reduced, but we do still have Biovores, the Barbed Hierodule if your group allows it, and the Exocrine/Hive Guard have some reach (although they won't likely be dueling with 36" range units).

Even if they won't ever want to come to you, do they have 2+ cover? Probably not. In short, you can likely win a war of attrition, whittling down what you need to while taking almost no damage in return. In short, I definitely want to try this.

It seems gimmicky and a complete loss of board control outside of your fortress bubble. I don't know why do this with Nids. We are the notoriously short ranged army, other than Biovores I don't believe there is a single cost-effective model with range greater than 18". The reach we have outside of the fortress is tiny, and you better hope your opponent has no Barrage / Templates / Markerlights / Ignores Cover shooting because this thing will fold like a wet paper bag leaving you well below on points.

On top of this, the assumption that we can outshoot any army that gets to keep perfect range dictation, even with global terminator saves is probably inaccurate. Range control is massive for us, there is a reason mobility is so crucial for us, why we want MoA, Onslaught, Wings, you constantly need to be pushing up to keep those Devourers in range. Out of the models that this doesn't apply to, Biovores are obviously great, for killing infantry however and anything in a transport obviously fully safe. TFex are obviously extremely expensive and unreliable and not worth it on a good day, and in this list the whole 2+ cover theme is mostly wasted since they already pay a bunch for a 2+ save. The fact that he suggested it in his build says a bit about the player behind this strategy. Units with single shot cannons aren't at all spammable, and are probably irrelevant since the core of this army is Biovores. Miasa Cannon might be nice for niche MC shooting, but meh. The Heirodule is almost necessary for this to do anything, yet is still far from a cost effective model in general, and not least of which because it also benefits much less from 2+ cover save.



Basically, premise of the build is you only need that 2+ to be there until they are in range of your guns, giving you the alpha strike, and securing the investment of your army. Assuming they have to come within threat range to win of course. So once they close with 26" or whatever the disembark + move + shoot range is for devourers, you jump out and fire. Basically, an expensive ass version of what you get for rolling MoA. If you think they are going to try fight you within 18" while your army has a 2+ global save (a.k.a. suicide) you take the auto-win, decent players won't do this tho. But I don't know, I think that most armies will win a war of attrition placed 30" away, yes there firepower will be mitigated heavily, but yours will be almost non-existent. Except they get to maintain full board control and positioning. This is a cheesy build designed to counter certain playstyles that are built around mobility and close range warfare (drop pods, orks, GK). Add to that that even the lists this is designed to built will still beat it depending on the mission, because you have zero board control and if you leave your big ruin, you have a massive points disadvantage.
I'd think twice about this, it's basically increasing the save of all your MC's by 1 against anything without AP3, even then, the benefits barely outweigh getting a MoA roll and are probably as consistent. Except they are not free. This just seems like typical flashy FLG nonsense, and it will of course fall apart at a higher level of play. Also, 1 Heldrake. Just imagine it. 1 Heldrake.

 SHUPPET wrote:


This is a cheesy build designed to counter certain playstyles that are built around mobility and close range warfare (drop pods, orks, GK). Add to that that even the lists this is designed to built will still beat it depending on the mission, because you have zero board control and if you leave your big ruin, you have a massive points disadvantage.
I'd think twice about this, it's basically increasing the save of all your MC's by 1 against anything without AP3, even then, the benefits barely outweigh getting a MoA roll and are probably as consistent. Except they are not free. This just seems like typical flashy FLG nonsense, and it will of course fall apart at a higher level of play. Also, 1 Heldrake. Just imagine it. 1 Heldrake.

To be clear, it's not a build. It's a strategy that can be implemented (and is implemented by any competent Tyranid player for a turn or two if they run a Malanthrope or a Venomthrope - so pretty much every Tyranid player). If it works, I don't see what anyone's issue could possibly be. Are they mad that we have this unit? You're right that many armies can outshoot us, and they certainly will. But do most armies have an abundance of 30+ inch range weaponry that isn't designed to be anti-tank or anti-horde? Basically, you're typically shooting at a t6 multiwound terminator unless you have ignores cover, in which case you're shooting at a t6 critter who is happy to take his 3+ armor save. If they're using anti-tank weaponry it won't have the necessary VOF to get through the 2+, and anti-horde will struggle to put wounds on t6.

I honestly don't understand the assertion of cheese. You use the rules of the unit and the game. You're welcome to not field a unit if it feels cheesy and play with as many Genestealers as you'd like. But I hope it's not too much for others to hope for level footing with other tournament-style armies. I'm not claiming that this will win tournaments, although it seems to have gone well for Bigpig and InControl (he only sort of used it) at a decently large tournament. All I'm saying is that it seems worth giving a shot to.

Also, it's worth noting that you're not giving up as much board control as you make it sound. You can have rippers going wherever you need them to for maelstrom points, and you can still go wherever you need to whenever you feel you need to. The whole idea is simply to weather the alpha strike, the beta strike, and possibly any stragglers that come in turn 3 via deep strike. All of those offensives are pretty much completely neutered if your Malanthrope survives (if he's even targetable/visible). I'll admit I don't have a great knowledge of all the weapons that armies have available to them that are content to sit back and plink away at 30 or more inches, but I haven't run across much of it that would worry me because it either doesn't ignore cover or is high ap/low VOF. Dark Eldar have a lot as do Tau, but that's what Biovores and the Hierodule are for.

And that Heldrake will do a whole single wound to a Malanthrope and then die in a fiery inferno to the Flyrants. Assuming it even comes in before turn 4

Actually, it is a build, because it includes a serious amount of must-take models and units. That being said you are arguing a semantic, because regardless of whether it's a strategy or a style of way to build a list, there is a fine point between the two, and the poster of this strategy did in fact, include an example list. At what stage does it become a build? But whatever, just substitute every mention of the word "build" in my post with the word "strategy" if it helps.

Cheese is not that it's outside the rules or that its an unfair build and that you should be nice to your tournament opponents. It's that its a build that is easily counterable and sacrifices all round stability for a cheesy victory designed around relying on your opponent not having a way to deal with a specific aspect your list or else the entire thing crumbles. EG cheesy Flyer Spam - AA, cheesy Landraider spam - heavy AT, etc. Here's a definition of the term "cheese"

Also, it's worth noting that you're not giving up as much board control as you make it sound. You can have rippers going wherever you need them to for maelstrom points, and you can still go wherever you need to whenever you feel you need to. The whole idea is simply to weather the alpha strike, the beta strike, and possibly any stragglers that come in turn 3 via deep strike. All

Alright, you can throw Rippers at points, they might make a couple, but I mentioned the whole "weathering the alpha" in great depth in my post and why it's a flawed concept. Also, while physically you CAN go anywhere whenever you feel you need to, in reality if you are hoping to win the match you cannot just leave on a whim, as you are down a bunch of wasted points between the fortress, the Malanthrope and whatever ineffecient unit comp you took to make the concept work (looking at you Barby), giving you a crippling disadvantage all across the board if this strategy doesn't net you a SIGNIFICANT amount of points.

And that Heldrake will do a whole single wound to a Malanthrope and then die in a fiery inferno to the Flyrants. Assuming it even comes in before turn 4

LOL

Dark Eldar have a lot as do Tau, but that's what Biovores and the Hierodule are for

I feel like DE actually have very little and are one of the better match ups for this. Assuming they don't just fan out and wreck you on objectives, but hey that's the issue no matter who you are facing. Venom's can't be sensibly taken in bulk now, Ravagers are ruined, the bulk of their AT is in Haywire and Bikes, and their anti-infantry seems to be CC / close range focused. Depends how many transports they managed to sensibly take however. You still will be lucky to pop 1 every two turns with the Biovores and Heirodule combined however.
Also, let me know how long it takes you to kill that Riptide with your Biovore + Heirodule combo. Then let me know how long it takes you to kill the other 2.


This strategy has glaring flaws and looks really bad, but that's all I think I'm going to say on the matter, not much else to be said about it strategically, if you want to run it, run it. Will do well against idiots who know how to do nothing but move 6" forward and roll for shooting every turn. But then again, Tyranids are naturally good against those guys anyway.

Agree to disagree

As I just said.

How do we do about tackling tank companies?

I.e the IG tank formation?

I'm taking on my bud later who's bringing his tournament list;

8 russ's of different variety including pask.
1 hydra
1 knight errant.

So... Yeah haha.

How does one tackle this?

 Wilson wrote:
How do we do about tackling tank companies?

I.e the IG tank formation?

I'm taking on my bud later who's bringing his tournament list;

8 russ's of different variety including pask.
1 hydra
1 knight errant.

So... Yeah haha.

How does one tackle this?

Skyblight? Most of those tanks are going to suck at AA, and one Hydra is not going to kill all the MCs. I don't think the Tanks get OS, so the gargs can snipe objectives from them. A Wrecker Node comes to mind all. A 3 fex node has a decent chance of dropping a knight on HoW alone, a cheap melee fex still wrecks russes. The biggest issue is going to Pask and his shot volume. Maybe a t-fex to deal with that.

luke1705 wrote:
I'm sure some of you guys have read Bigpig's tactics thread about what he calls the "Trapdoor Spider", either on Frontlinegaming or over on Tyranid Hive Proboards. I've seen some ideas over in both of those places (and I know many of us lurk in more than just one forum) but I'm curious to hear what you guys think about this play style. It sounds very interesting.

Spoiler:

But going a little further down the rabbit hole, how would you guys go about this type of play style if you decided to try it, even just hypothetically? What units would you use? How would they function with respect to the rest of your army (in case it's not obvious).

For those of you who haven't read the article, I'd highly recommend it, even just as a tactical approach to try in certain situations. To give a 60 second overview, the strategy hinges on the Malanthrope (or Venomthrope) giving much of your army a 2+ cover save, which is easier done than most people think. The part where the strategy diverges from what most people do is in the fact that it waits. Your army sits in the shrouded bubble (which I have affectionately termed "shroudstar") and makes the opponent come to you. You wait in your fortress of solitude until turn 3 or 4 being just ridiculously durable and doing what you can at range. If they come to you, you can pounce when the time is right, having taken very few casualties since you didn't have to march across the board - your opponent did it for you! How considerate of them.

The question of course then becomes - why on earth would they come to me? What can I do to get them to come to me? The first question is more common than most people think, since even if they get within 24 inches of you, which most armies will have to do, then you can strike with everything whenever you want. If they're outside of 24", your firepower is somewhat reduced, but we do still have Biovores, the Barbed Hierodule if your group allows it, and the Exocrine/Hive Guard have some reach (although they won't likely be dueling with 36" range units).

Even if they won't ever want to come to you, do they have 2+ cover? Probably not. In short, you can likely win a war of attrition, whittling down what you need to while taking almost no damage in return. In short, I definitely want to try this

BigPig is a talented player, and has a history of tournament performance to back him up. However, I think his article oversimplifies his actual playstyle a bit. It is a particular gambit that works very well against a selection of armies that are currently popular in the metas in which he plays, but I imagine that BigPig is also wise enough to recognize matchups where a different strategy is called for. For instance Tau. Adamantine Lance, and several others, and I think he would adjust his strategy to those lists as he faces them.

[7th edition rant] Much of the changes in 7th edition had the effect to limit the ability of gunlines to win the game. The fact that BigPig is able to find success creating a Tyranid gunline is a weird perversion of the 7th edition changes. It is my hope that as the wider meta begins to embrace 7th edition more fulling, this sort of strategy will fall by the wayside.[/rant]

I do think BigPigs strategy of limited board control is a better approach to most games than using JY2's strategy of working the corners and edges of the board while surrendering the middle to your opponent at the start of the game. I would generally offer a much more aggressive strategy of either midfield board control If I'm using a Barbed Heirodule, or Threat containment if I'm running a Flying Circus. My strategies difference to BigPig and JY2 mainly reflect that I play in a meta that embraced Maelstrom missions much more than their metas which are sticking with Eternal war primarily with limited Maelstrom influence. Also, I think all three of us end up going the way of JY2 if things start going very badly. I call it starfishing when you realize that you are unable to hold your tactical deployment, and have to spread out in a effort to avoid being overrun.

If BigPig encounters one of the things that his list fears, he would probably adopt a strategy more akin to my threat containment or JY2's "Positional Dominance". I think the most important thing to recognize is that no one strategy is a panacea, and while it is important to pick one initial strategic direction and build your list to accomplish that, you need to also be able to recognize when that approach isn't going to work, and adjust strategies on the fly.

My biggest critique of BigPig's approach, and the list he offered to utilize it, is that it struggles to function if another strategy is called for. I think a very small alteration to the list would make it much more versatile without surrendering very much when it comes to accomplishing its primary goal. That alteration would be to include a unit of 20 or so Gargoyles to allow for a tarpit / Roadblock / Deep strike deterrent / Screen depending on what is needed.

Other alternations like a second source of shrouding, or a defensive emplacement like a Void shield generator or Aegis line are reasonable as well, but I see why they might not fit in the list at the points allowed.

I have no serious objections to the "Trap door spider" stratagem, except... It is an established concept that "anyone who advances towards Tyranids, loses". And my own experiances tend to conferm...I think it is an example of a play style, presented as a strategy/build...I'm guessing BigPigs "style" is to wait for a mistake, then exploit it". My own is much the same. But I put unrelenting pressure through movement. He seems to use psychological pressure (the desire to Do Stuff!) Both methods should yield results. And as far as I know...they do.

From a "military theory" point of view, both methods have validity, by moving, and Outflanking I try to seize, and keep the initative. But defense is well know as a superior stratagem as well....and both can and do work.

I don't think I would be happy with a "Shroud castle", because I can see to many ways to counter it. (I kinda specialized in smashing Tau castles, till they went out of style) So I would not like usinging it. But really it is just taking basic "survive the Alpha" techniques, and expanding their use.

barnowl wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
How do we do about tackling tank companies?

I.e the IG tank formation?

I'm taking on my bud later who's bringing his tournament list;

8 russ's of different variety including pask.
1 hydra
1 knight errant.

So... Yeah haha.

How does one tackle this?

Skyblight? Most of those tanks are going to suck at AA, and one Hydra is not going to kill all the MCs. I don't think the Tanks get OS, so the gargs can snipe objectives from them. A Wrecker Node comes to mind all. A 3 fex node has a decent chance of dropping a knight on HoW alone, a cheap melee fex still wrecks russes. The biggest issue is going to Pask and his shot volume. Maybe a t-fex to deal with that.

Hey Barnowl!

I've just got back from my friends house and that game went completely differently to how I imagined it!
I will be posting a bat rep on my blog tonight or tomorrow so if you don't want any spoilers and intend on checking it out - don't click below!

 Wilson wrote:

barnowl wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
How do we do about tackling tank companies?

I.e the IG tank formation?

I'm taking on my bud later who's bringing his tournament list;

8 russ's of different variety including pask.
1 hydra
1 knight errant.

So... Yeah haha.

How does one tackle this?

Skyblight? Most of those tanks are going to suck at AA, and one Hydra is not going to kill all the MCs. I don't think the Tanks get OS, so the gargs can snipe objectives from them. A Wrecker Node comes to mind all. A 3 fex node has a decent chance of dropping a knight on HoW alone, a cheap melee fex still wrecks russes. The biggest issue is going to Pask and his shot volume. Maybe a t-fex to deal with that.

Hey Barnowl!

I've just got back from my friends house and that game went completely differently to how I imagined it!
I will be posting a bat rep on my blog tonight or tomorrow so if you don't want any spoilers and intend on checking it out - don't click below!

Spoiler:

First of all the lists where;

Pask
2 punisher tanks
2 exercutioners
2 vangquishers
2 leman russ battle tanks
1 Hydra
1 Knight errant

my list was

Flyrant -devourers electro
Flyrant -devourers electro
Rippers DS
Rippers DS
Malan
Dimachaeron
Hive Crone
Mawloc
Mawloc
LAN

The knight was wrecked turn 2 by both flyrants and hive crone.
one of the mawloc popped up behind an executioner squad and did 2 pens when it came in and wrecked one of them( - lol, that'll never happen again.)
The dima being an absolute monster on the field drew so much fire away from the flyrants. he tanked so many wounds that could have gone else where. A real key player IMO. ( even if that's all he did - apart from look pretty too.
)
We called it at turn 6 as all he had left was 1 punisher, 2 vanquishers and the hydra.
I had FB ( Knight)
Warlord ( Pask)
Line breaker
Relic

6-0 to Nids!

Now I don't know if that list looks scarier on paper ( the IG list) or if I just outplayed my friend ( he's a good guy and great player so no disrespect to him!) but I lost 1 mawloc and the Dimachaeron in that game and that was it.

Also, Id liked to add that a Malanthrope in a ruin is just beautiful.

Odd that you didn't take out the Hydra fairly early. They die pretty easy, and can threaten your FMC's more than anything else except for the pask punisher.

tag8833 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Canoptek spiders are S6 T6 3W 3+ monstrous creatures who can give you a free 15-pt unit every turn. The kicker? They're only 50-pts each. WOW!!! So for 150-pts, you get 9 T6 Wounds that can give you 45-pts worth of units for free each turn. Compare that to a stock carnifex, who only gives you 1 4W T6 MC for 120-pts. Trust me, the spider is severely undercosted and is a basis for another of the Necron competitive builds - the Scarab-farm. In such an army you take 3x3 spiders who pump out 9 scarabs a turn. That's 27W of units each turn being produced by these spiders!!! Now if they can do it continuously for 5 turns, that's 45 scarabs or 135W worth of models over the course of the game!!!

It's definitely a different playstyle than 3 annihilation barges. Instead of generating a lot of shots, you are generating a lot of bodies.

So, I see where you are coming from. I have heard of this build. I've only had the opportunity to play against it once, and I took a very fluffy list, and stomped it. Turn 2 all of the Scarabs were dead. I threw 20 Hormagants into assault against the spiders and moved on. I guess there were only 3 Spiders so not quite the degree of spam you were suggestions.

My experience leads me to believe that perhaps the Scarab Farm isn't a terribly competitive necron build. I see how it could give Orks and marines difficulty, but Tau, Eldar, and Tyranids should be able to handle it with ease. In fact, shouldn't a Thunderfire cannon be able to wipe out a squad of Scarabs a turn?

The scarab farm isn't the most competitive Necron build. However, don't under-estimate it. It can be quite good. I've seen/heard it do very well in tournaments.

Of the 2 top Necron players at Nova recently, one was running Scarab-farm Necrons, while the other ran Necrons + Ork formation.

One of our fellow dakkalites, Norbu the Destroyer, has had some success with the scarab-farm in tournament play.

1850 Necrons at M.Y.C.L summer finale tournament

Indy Open GT

We also had 1 local player win a RTT with Scarab-farm Necrons, beating out mechdar and also a seer council army to do so.

It can be quite deceptive, especially if you run Zandrekh and a Destroyer Lord. Attach the D-lord to the farm to tank incoming shots with his 2+. Zandrekh can give the farm Stealth, Furious Charge, Tank Hunter and/or Hit-&-Run. Combine that with Prefered Enemy from the D-lord and the farm becomes quite effective. I've even seen the farm beat mechdar before, despite all those S7 cover-ignoring shots.

A thunderfire cannot put enough wounds to wipe out the farm unless you run 3, and even that may not do it. You can fire the S6 to insta-kill, but then the swarm will be getting Stealth cover, or you can fire the S5 Ignore Cover shots, but that won't insta-kill the scarabs.

Is it completely balanced? No, it's got its share of hard counters/bad matchups. But is it competitive? Yeah, I think it is.

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think the LAN is 450 points that would be much better as 3 Dakkafexes, or Crones if you insist they are better (possibly are but I doubt it, 450 pts of them will do a combined total of 2 HP all game with their tentaclids, and vektor striking every turn which you won't be able to do x3 will do an average of 1.5 wounds, in reality its gonna be lower than that - I think Dakkafexes are just leagues better even here).

Massed Shrikes is another option when building to beat Necrons I guess. I can't even envision how it would go so I'm gunna withhold any comments. Might leave the game a bit more playskill dependant however which is what you wanted right.

LAN is 390 points. The Biovores did alot of work. The Exocrine was my best chance at killing that destroyer Lord, unfortunately, Look Out Sirs saved him. The warriors were unspectacular, but would have taken on a squad of immortals if they hadn't failed a charge.

Would Dropping the LAN for Crones be a good call? Probably against this particular list. I don't think it yields a better TAC list. Dropping the LAN for another Flyrant would have helped me quite a lot. I still feel good about the LAN in a competitive list. I'm not quite ready to jettison it yet. But against Necrons a Trip flyrant list with Crones or Barbed Heirodule is definitely a better option.

The LAN is almost always useful. However, if your concern is anti-air, then there is a very simple solution that will still make your army a decent TAC list. Drop the LAN and go with self-allies (assuming this is allowed, which it is if going by BAO and Nova rules).

Replace LAN with Tyranid allies:

Dakka flyrant w/3 Egrubs
10 termagants or 3 rippers
Hive Crone

You will have to drop some support units to get this in, or you can probably swap out the hive crone for some biovores. The point is, the flyrant will be able to handle any of the units out there, from scarabs to flyers to the monolith. The crone is just secondary.

 Strat_N8 wrote:
In regards to Necrons, try a Tyrannofex or two. Your typical Necron list generally doesn't have much in the way of ranged AP2 and Tesla just bounces off (last time I brought a Tyrannofex against 'crons it took all 7 turns of sustained tesla fire to kill it). Meanwhile, both of the typical Tyrannofex templates are useful in the match-up (Acid Spay for clearing out Warriors in or out of Arks, Electroshock Grubs for vehicles), so it can't be entirely ignored.

The T-fex can be a good choice, though I am not as high on him as others have been. I much prefer the utility of a 3rd flyrant. The T-fex is something I'd consider if I didn't want to run too competitive of a list. But against one of the fastest armies in the game currently, you need a lot of speed to keep up and unfortunately, that isn't the T-fex.

 cyberjonesy wrote:

DeviousDonut wrote:
I was the Tyranid player at the invitational. The only tyranid player, I was running a single CAD with:
2 Flyrants + Devourers + ES Grubs (Duh)
Malanthrope
Tervigon
30 Gaunts
20 Gargoyles
Dimachaeron
2 Carnifexes + Devourers

Over all I went 6-1. I lost my very first game on Friday. And I blame that on having a very good opponent with 6 vendetta valkerye elysian drop troops that I was in no way prepared for, and the fact that I looked at the mission packet wrong. I didn't realize the Objectives were cumulative until turn 5. I argued with my opponent over the end game score but in the end decided it was my own fault for not reading the mission properly and gave him the win. My next games involved facing White Scar Grav Bikers with khan, Ork nob bikers supported by lots of artillery, DE, Triptide tau with farsight and a knight, A knight Castigator with imp guard and pask including 2 wyverns and a hydra on a skyshield. Then finally for the top of bracket 2 I ended up facing my original opponent again. 6 Valkyrie vendetta elysian troops all with melta bombs. This time around I was very careful with the mission and knew to give him first turn since he started entirely in reserve. I came away with the win and took the top of bracket 2.

Taken from the feast of blades tournament thread. This list is full of genius, what do you guys think?

The tervigon is still a good and often under-appreciated unit. I am not at all surprised that he was able to do well with it. Overall, it is a very balanced Tyranid list.

One thing that worked in favor of the Tyranid player was that the tournament was played at 1500. At lower points games, those TMC's and FMC's become harder and harder to deal with as people just don't have as many high-strength, low-AP guns, or resources, to deal with so many T6/flying units.

 Iechine wrote:
Of course things can go well for a good player in an environment that allows it. Terv is still 6 wounds and reproducing, Dima is still a beast in CC. Its not a list Id want to take simply on the grounds it starts with 50 small bodies I have to move in a tournament. : /

Im on nightshift tonight with nothing to do, so heres some discussion questions.

Next week Ill probably run in to a lot of armies I havent gotten to play much against ever. So what do I need to focus down when facing Necrons, Imperial Guard, and Orks? Thats to say, who is the focus for the quad tyrant Alpha strike?

Necrons - This is a tough one. AV13 is tough for Tyranids, especially when they can shoot so well with teslas. Almost every vehicle is a threat, not to mention those bargelords. Go after the night scythes at every opportunity that you can. You want to stop him from doing the Turn 5 objective drops. Beware of the night scythe alpha-strikes. Go 2nd and 1 strategy you may want to consider is to fly your flyrants off the table on Turn 1 and then have them come back on the table on Turn 2 after the Necron night scythes have come in. Keep all your guys within Shrouding range of the malanthrope but in ruins for the 2+ cover....you're going to need it against Necron shooting! Hide that malan/venom. Even with 2+ cover, he WILL NOT survive the concentrated fire of all those teslas. Fortunately for me, that is one of the reasons why I bring a bastion - it gives me protection from the likes of necrons, eldar and Tau.

Astra Militarum - honestly, I don't have too much experience against them in this edition. Depending on what they run - mech or blob infantry, your strategies will be much different. Blobs may be easier to deal with, especially if you are running LAN or biovores. But with a tank-heavy list, you need to somehow close the distance with your core army. Either ways, your flyrants will be a big plus here. A tank-heavy AM army will have trouble against flyrants (especially if you are running quad-flyrants) but against a blob army (or hybrid blob/tanks), you've got to focus all your dakka into them (pray he isn't running some type of psyker to give them Invisibility). For a quad-flyrant list backed by dakkafexes, the IG tank list is definitely the much easier one to deal with.

Orks - I really don't have very much experience with Orks in this edition as well. Tyranids can usually handle the standard ork lists. It's the formations you've got to watch out for. In any case, get your flyrants into the air and kill any transports that you can see (i.e. trukks). Battlewagons can be killed on Turn 2 when your flyrants can get into their rear arcs (or on Turn 1 even if orks are going 1st and they advance aggressively). But the main weakness of orks is their anti-air. Most ork players won't be spamming those anti-air guns of theirs and so you will have free reign over the skies. Skyblight will be a nightmare for most ork players, as should quad-flyrants.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:
I've got a general question. I see 1 Malanthrope showing up in every list. I almost always lose a single Malanthrope in every game these days. Sometimes that and some gargoyles are all I lose in a game. Some of that has to do with my local meta being well trained and coached by me to beat tyranids. If I was running a ground pound army like the one above, I would want a 2nd Malanthrope so that I have flexibility in deployment and my army doesn't start falling apart when I lose 1 model.

I'm curious that not only do most tyranid players seem to run only one Malanthrope, but also they never seem to lose them. Do you think that as the general player base adapts, we will start seeing more people sniping out Malanthropes before firing fruitlessly into 2+ cover?

A single Malan in a bastion is one thing, but if you are making the long walk, and/or hoping for Master of Ambush, a 2nd Malanthrope would seem to be called for.

First of all, it is tough dealing with Tyranid biggies with 2+ cover. It takes a huge amount of firepower, which most casual lists won't be able to do. It is only against the high-firepower lists where you need to be concerned about redundancy for your Shroud-givers.

Secondly, you only need him there to mainly protect your army for 1 or 2 turns. If he's done that, then he's done his job and it then doesn't matter if he bites it or not.

Experienced players can make it work with a single malan/venomthrope, but only with the use of LOS-blockers or if they bring protection in the form of a bastion/bunker. Because if you are playing against the likes of Tau or Eldar without decent BLOS terrain, then it doesn't matter if you bring 1 or 2 malanthropes - they will both still die on Turn 1.

Mainly, you can thank your flyrants if your malanthrope survives. After Turn 1, your opponent should be too busy dealing with those flyrants to care about the malan/venom. Then after Turn 2, they'll be dealing with almost your entire army (assuming you are bringing shooty units) to have to worry about your malan/venom.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:

I run nothing but a single Venomthrope. I know right, no malanthropes, crazy! Pretty different to most, but then again - where others have two Malanthropes instead, I have an extra Carnifex. Does it die quickly? Obviously. But at 45 points, having LoS blocked by a Dakkafex pack or at the very least covered for a 3+ save, and in the early stages that is often 1 or two full units shooting that it absorbs, well and truly making its points back for me every game. Against anything with cover ignoring weaponry (my two most challenging opponents are, surprise surprise, a competitive Eldar and a competitive Tau player), I am not bringing a 1300 pt army to 1500 pt game. I feel like Malanthrope is pretty overrated, its a good model but not this auto-include musthave that many make it out to be, and taking 2 is really biting into a lot of points.

Let me ask you, have you ever tried running a malanthrope? Did you try it and then switched back to the venomthrope? If so, I am curious as to why.

It's like driving a Honda Civic, then upgrading your car to a BMW, and then dumping the BMW to go back to the Civic even though price/cost isn't a concern.

 jy2 wrote:

Necrons - This is a tough one. AV13 is tough for Tyranids, especially when they can shoot so well with teslas. Almost every vehicle is a threat, not to mention those bargelords. Go after the night scythes at every opportunity that you can. You want to stop him from doing the Turn 5 objective drops. Beware of the night scythe alpha-strikes. Go 2nd and 1 strategy you may want to consider is to fly your flyrants off the table on Turn 1 and then have them come back on the table on Turn 2 after the Necron night scythes have come in. Keep all your guys within Shrouding range of the malanthrope but in ruins for the 2+ cover....you're going to need it against Necron shooting! Hide that malan/venom. Even with 2+ cover, he WILL NOT survive the concentrated fire of all those teslas. Fortunately for me, that is one of the reasons why I bring a bastion - it gives me protection from the likes of necrons, eldar and Tau.

Astra Militarum - honestly, I don't have too much experience against them in this edition. Depending on what they run - mech or blob infantry, your strategies will be much different. Blobs may be easier to deal with, especially if you are running LAN or biovores. But with a tank-heavy list, you need to somehow close the distance with your core army. Either ways, your flyrants will be a big plus here. A tank-heavy AM army will have trouble against flyrants (especially if you are running quad-flyrants) but against a blob army (or hybrid blob/tanks), you've got to focus all your dakka into them (pray he isn't running some type of psyker to give them Invisibility). For a quad-flyrant list backed by dakkafexes, the IG tank list is definitely the much easier one to deal with.

Orks - I really don't have very much experience with Orks in this edition as well. Tyranids can usually handle the standard ork lists. It's the formations you've got to watch out for. In any case, get your flyrants into the air and kill any transports that you can see (i.e. trukks). Battlewagons can be killed on Turn 2 when your flyrants can get into their rear arcs (or on Turn 1 even if orks are going 1st and they advance aggressively). But the main weakness of orks is their anti-air. Most ork players won't be spamming those anti-air guns of theirs and so you will have free reign over the skies. Skyblight will be a nightmare for most ork players, as should quad-flyrants.

Hey man, thanks. One issue Ive yet to learn is when to go second...against most armies I feel first is best, especially for the quad tyrant setup. Ill keep that in mind with the necrons.

One thing I forgot and havent read in this thread yet, how are the new Hellfrost Space Wolf weapons being handled? Should I fear them if I get a SW matchup?

Im also considering my strategy for running up against a drop pod army with my list. Bunker/corner up with my tyrants around the malanthrope and my 30 gargoyles as widely spaced as possible to stop the alpha as much as possible seems like the best/only option, unless anyone has other ideas. (Besides list changing, Im stuck with what I have at this point)