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I see the Toxicrene as pretty good close combat for it's price. It is just relatively fragile and works best in conjunction with other units. It's a decent substitute for a cc TMC if you can't use a Dima (cost or No FW).

 Redemption wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 Wilson wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
5.83 5.00 Toxicrine vs a Wraithknight? Isnt he hitting on 4+'s to begin with?

yeah and he only has 6 attacks so thats only 2.5 wounds...

But on 6's he does 6 wounds. That is why I made a point of highlighting that ID was included.

Well, technically, he does as much wounds as the model has remaining. If he rolls that 6 for his fifth attack, he basically only did two wounds. Or if he rolls two sixes in 1 dice roll, the second one doesn't do anything. Counting every 6 as 6 wounds will inflate the number, as you can see.

While I see your point, however I think a more nuance formulation of the possible outcomes would not be useful as a comparative calculation.

I was briefly inclined to add a percentage to ID, but decided that 2 number per unit would be more useful (Charge, 2nd Round), and decided that counting an ID as Max wounds was more useful than counting it as average wounds or some other level, because in most of those combats, it is an ID that is going to be the blow that actually takes care of business.

If you have a better way to present such a comparative calculation, I will happily take it under advisement. And if you have a greater grasp of statistics and can easily graph the probabilistic outcomes in the form of a bell curve that would probably be the best way to present the data.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is a rundown of the 4 Melee creatures comparisons vs Armor. Its only their chance to Glance. If anyone cares about their chance to Pen, I can run that too.

I'm assuming the Swarmlord gives himself furious charge, the Dimacharon uses his Grasping Talons, and has +1 S on the charge, and the Tyranid Prime has Adrenal glands and Rending Claws. Nothing Smashing until wounding is impossible.

10 11 12 13 14 2.67 2.00 1.33 0.67 0.46 Swarmlord 3.89 3.11 2.33 1.56 0.78 Dimacharon 2.00 1.33 0.67 0.67 0.44 Tyranid prime 1.56 0.78 0.65 0.59 0.46 Toxicrine

As expected the Dimacharon wins again. What i wasn't expecting was the Tyranid Prime to outperform the Toxicrine like that. Once again HOW are not included.

Tag can you please include a Carnifex, and Exocine.

And for the Fex, add crushing claws, and no crushing claws. I am interested in these numbers.

 cormadepanda wrote:
Tag can you please include a Carnifex, and Exocine.

And for the Fex, add crushing claws, and no crushing claws. I am interested in these numbers.

If you want Crushing Claw Fexes, you would probably be better off with Stonewreckers. D3 S10 Ap2 HoW with Armourbane and Monster Hunter, yus please

 Frozocrone wrote:

 cormadepanda wrote:
Tag can you please include a Carnifex, and Exocine.

And for the Fex, add crushing claws, and no crushing claws. I am interested in these numbers.

If you want Crushing Claw Fexes, you would probably be better off with Stonewreckers. D3 S10 Ap2 HoW with Armourbane and Monster Hunter, yus please

Hasn't this been discussed before? I seem to remember a discussion about not actually gaining much with the Stonecrusher, but it may have had something to do with no guns and crawling across the board.

 jy2 wrote:

Lol. I gave up with them in assault ever since 6th. Tried it one more time at the BAO in 7th, but that was a big mistake which I probably won't repeat again.

Is that where you overestimated their damage output and smashed to not kill the tac squad ?

Yup! And it got my Flyrants stuck in combat for the whole game.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 cormadepanda wrote:
Tag can you please include a Carnifex, and Exocine.

And for the Fex, add crushing claws, and no crushing claws. I am interested in these numbers.

If you want Crushing Claw Fexes, you would probably be better off with Stonewreckers. D3 S10 Ap2 HoW with Armourbane and Monster Hunter, yus please

Hasn't this been discussed before? I seem to remember a discussion about not actually gaining much with the Stonecrusher, but it may have had something to do with no guns and crawling across the board.

True, but it doesn't need to crawl across the board now I'm eager to try one over a Dakkafex just to see how they compare If I'm honest

@Frozocone
Oh, I'm curious as well. Of course the Stonecrusher has two different loadouts- the wrecking ball and the dual claws.

First three games: http://vectdoes.blogspot.com/

 cormadepanda wrote:
Tag can you please include a Carnifex, and Exocine.

And for the Fex, add crushing claws, and no crushing claws. I am interested in these numbers.

Sure
10 11 12 13 14 2.67 2.00 1.33 0.67 0.46 Swarmlord 3.89 3.11 2.33 1.56 0.78 Dimacharon 2.00 1.33 0.67 0.67 0.44 Tyranid prime 1.56 0.78 0.65 0.59 0.46 Toxicrine 1.33 0.89 0.65 0.59 0.46 Exocrine 2.67 2.22 1.78 1.33 0.89 Carnifex 2.67 2.67 2.67 2.59 2.37 Carnifex (CC) 2.00 2.00 1.94 1.78 1.39 Stone Crusher 2.00 2.00 1.67 1.33 1.00 Stone Crusher(Flail)
Note: with only 4 attacks on the charge, the Exocrine is better off Smashing against Armor 12. Also Stone Crushers are AP:1, and so they have twice the chance of exploding vehicles.

Because you've Asked for Carnifexes, and they do a significant amount of Damage in HOW, here is the HOW table. I can't combine the two tables, because in most cases HOW will hit another armor facing than normal attacks.
10 11 12 13 14 0.33 0.17 0.00 0.00 0.00 Toxicrine (or Crone) 0.50 0.33 0.17 0.00 0.00 Normal TMC 2.00 1.67 1.33 1.00 0.67 Carnifex 2.00 2.00 2.00 1.94 1.77 Stone Crusher
Note: Stone Crushers HOW is AP:2


Automatically Appended Next Post:

OrdoSean wrote:
First three games: http://vectdoes.blogspot.com/

In Game 1, Did deathleaper survive to teleport homer your Mawlocs, or did you just roll freaking lucky on the scatter?

Death leaper died... i think I mentioned that. The other Lictor guided them in.

OrdoSean wrote:
Death leaper died... i think I mentioned that. The other Lictor guided them in.

Yep, it just looked from the picture like the Lictor wasn't in range to guide the Mawlocs in. I'm guessing your opponent consolidated toward it for some reason.

Great Job with the picture by the way.

I do not understand at all what your Tau opponent was trying to do clumping up like that. Were you tabled except for 3 Spore mines at the start of your 2nd turn? Was one of the Spore mines manning the Comms relay, or did you have to roll for reserves without it? Why didn't you embark some spore mines in the Bastion?

Was it your impression that your opponents generally didn't really understand what Mawloc do?

tag8833 wrote:

 cormadepanda wrote:
Tag can you please include a Carnifex, and Exocine.

And for the Fex, add crushing claws, and no crushing claws. I am interested in these numbers.

Sure
10 11 12 13 14 2.67 2.00 1.33 0.67 0.46 Swarmlord 3.89 3.11 2.33 1.56 0.78 Dimacharon 2.00 1.33 0.67 0.67 0.44 Tyranid prime 1.56 0.78 0.65 0.59 0.46 Toxicrine 1.33 0.89 0.65 0.59 0.46 Exocrine 2.67 2.22 1.78 1.33 0.89 Carnifex 2.67 2.67 2.67 2.59 2.37 Carnifex (CC) 2.00 2.00 1.94 1.78 1.39 Stone Crusher 2.00 2.00 1.67 1.33 1.00 Stone Crusher(Flail)
Note: with only 4 attacks on the charge, the Exocrine is better off Smashing against Armor 12. Also Stone Crushers are AP:1, and so they have twice the chance of exploding vehicles.

Because you've Asked for Carnifexes, and they do a significant amount of Damage in HOW, here is the HOW table. I can't combine the two tables, because in most cases HOW will hit another armor facing than normal attacks.
10 11 12 13 14 0.33 0.17 0.00 0.00 0.00 Toxicrine (or Crone) 0.50 0.33 0.17 0.00 0.00 Normal TMC 2.00 1.67 1.33 1.00 0.67 Carnifex 2.00 2.00 2.00 1.94 1.77 Stone Crusher
Note: Stone Crushers HOW is AP:2


Automatically Appended Next Post:

OrdoSean wrote:
First three games: http://vectdoes.blogspot.com/

In Game 1, Did deathleaper survive to teleport homer your Mawlocs, or did you just roll freaking lucky on the scatter?

Thanks for running these numbers for us Tag really appreciate it. Could you add the Stonecrusher and FlailFex to the to wound chart you did earlier?

tag8833 wrote:

 cormadepanda wrote:
Tag can you please include a Carnifex, and Exocine.

And for the Fex, add crushing claws, and no crushing claws. I am interested in these numbers.

Sure
10 11 12 13 14 2.67 2.00 1.33 0.67 0.46 Swarmlord 3.89 3.11 2.33 1.56 0.78 Dimacharon 2.00 1.33 0.67 0.67 0.44 Tyranid prime 1.56 0.78 0.65 0.59 0.46 Toxicrine 1.33 0.89 0.65 0.59 0.46 Exocrine 2.67 2.22 1.78 1.33 0.89 Carnifex 2.67 2.67 2.67 2.59 2.37 Carnifex (CC) 2.00 2.00 1.94 1.78 1.39 Stone Crusher 2.00 2.00 1.67 1.33 1.00 Stone Crusher(Flail)
Note: with only 4 attacks on the charge, the Exocrine is better off Smashing against Armor 12. Also Stone Crushers are AP:1, and so they have twice the chance of exploding vehicles.

Because you've Asked for Carnifexes, and they do a significant amount of Damage in HOW, here is the HOW table. I can't combine the two tables, because in most cases HOW will hit another armor facing than normal attacks.
10 11 12 13 14 0.33 0.17 0.00 0.00 0.00 Toxicrine (or Crone) 0.50 0.33 0.17 0.00 0.00 Normal TMC 2.00 1.67 1.33 1.00 0.67 Carnifex 2.00 2.00 2.00 1.94 1.77 Stone Crusher
Note: Stone Crushers HOW is AP:2


Automatically Appended Next Post:

OrdoSean wrote:
First three games: http://vectdoes.blogspot.com/

In Game 1, Did deathleaper survive to teleport homer your Mawlocs, or did you just roll freaking lucky on the scatter?

Thank you Tag. Seems like a carnifex is an ok melee av hunter in a pinch. Something i wanted to know. I also learned HOW is now resolved on armor facing you charge. Neat.

Here is my current iteration of #Lictorshame list, really like the look of this...

Hive Tyrant
Hive Tyrant

Lictor
Lictor

DS Rippers
DS Rippers
5 Genestealers
5 Genestealers
5 Genestealers

3 Ravenors
3 Ravenors

Mawloc
Mawloc

Bastion comms relay

Deathleaper Assassin Brood.

Eldercaveman wrote:
Here is my current iteration of #Lictorshame list, really like the look of this...

Hive Tyrant
Hive Tyrant

Lictor
Lictor

DS Rippers
DS Rippers
5 Genestealers
5 Genestealers
5 Genestealers

3 Ravenors
3 Ravenors

Mawloc
Mawloc

Bastion comms relay

Deathleaper Assassin Brood.

Not sure if I see the value of the rippers in this list. Could take mucolid spores instead, that's then an additional threat to worry about when the rippers aren't much threat at all.

So after spending quite a sum on a new Tamaskan dog Im laying off spending on WH40K for a bit. This is going to be my current TAC list as well as a competitive choice. I also think this list is FUN to play, which I can appreciate.

1850
Flyrant w/Devs Electro
Flyrant w/Devs Electro
Flyrant w/Devs Electro
Malanthrope
4x Rippers w/DS
3x Rippers w/DS
Mucolid
25x Gargoyles
25x Gargoyles
Carnifex w/Devourers in Tyrannocite w/Venomcannons
Mawloc
Mawloc
Bastion w/Comms

Other than the Bastion which I can buy cheap, all I have to do is paint up my Tyrannocite and 10 Gargoyles and be on my way.


Since they are so in vogue now, maybe I better drop a ripper and use a venomthrope instead so I can throw in a Lictor.

 Iechine wrote:
So after spending quite a sum on a new Tamaskan dog Im laying off spending on WH40K for a bit. This is going to be my current TAC list as well as a competitive choice. I also think this list is FUN to play, which I can appreciate.

1850 w/Devourers
Flyrant w/Devs Electro
Flyrant w/Devs Electro
Flyrant w/Devs Electro
Malanthrope
4x Rippers w/DS
3x Rippers w/DS
Mucolid
25x Gargoyles
25x Gargoyles
Carnifex w/Devourers in Tyrannocite w/Venomcannons
Mawloc
Mawloc
Bastion w/Comms

Other than the Bastion which I can buy cheap, all I have to do is paint up my Tyrannocite and 10 Gargoyles and be on my way.


Since they are so in vogue now, maybe I better drop a ripper and use a venomthrope instead so I can throw in a Lictor.

That Lictor would be a good fit with two Mawlocs popping up

I think if you want to redo San's list you need to look at Mucolids and Malanthrope now.

Primary CAD - 1470
HQ: 2 Flyrants - 2 TL Brainleach Devourers - Electroshock Grubs 480
Elite: 2 Lictors 100
Elite: Malanthrope 85
Troop: 3 Ripper Swarms - Deepstrike 45
Troop: 3x 1 Mucolid Spore Cluster 45
FA: 4 Spore Clusters 20
Fast Attack: 5 Tyranid Shrikes - 4 Deathspitters - Venom Cannon 180
Heavy Support: 3 Mawloc 420
Fortification: Bastion - Comms Relay 95

Death Leaper Assassin Formation - 380
Death Leaper 130
5 Lictors 250

This still has the same function as Sean's list with a bit of insurance. Shrikes can DS too. I like them. Synapse is not a big issue in the list but these guys can shoot and assault too. Use spores or a lictor to take overwatch if you have too.

L0rdF1end wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Here is my current iteration of #Lictorshame list, really like the look of this...

Hive Tyrant
Hive Tyrant

Lictor
Lictor

DS Rippers
DS Rippers
5 Genestealers
5 Genestealers
5 Genestealers

3 Ravenors
3 Ravenors

Mawloc
Mawloc

Bastion comms relay

Deathleaper Assassin Brood.

Not sure if I see the value of the rippers in this list. Could take mucolid spores instead, that's then an additional threat to worry about when the rippers aren't much threat at all.

They aren't a threat, until they are scoring.me the objectives. Then you have to make a choice between those scoring or the other units killing. While I see the point of Mucoloids for filling out minimum troops in list, and they do have a place in MSU lists, I'd still like the extra, if I had a spare 10 points (already have 5) then I'd chuck one in.

felixcat wrote:I think if you want to redo San's list you need to look at Mucolids and Malanthrope now.

Primary CAD - 1470
HQ: 2 Flyrants - 2 TL Brainleach Devourers - Electroshock Grubs 480
Elite: 2 Lictors 100
Elite: Malanthrope 85
Troop: 3 Ripper Swarms - Deepstrike 45
Troop: 3x 1 Mucolid Spore Cluster 45
FA: 4 Spore Clusters 20
Fast Attack: 5 Tyranid Shrikes - 4 Deathspitters - Venom Cannon 180
Heavy Support: 3 Mawloc 420
Fortification: Bastion - Comms Relay 95

Death Leaper Assassin Formation - 380
Death Leaper 130
5 Lictors 250


This still has the same function as Sean's list with a bit of insurance. Shrikes can DS too. I like them. Synapse is not a big issue in the list but these guys can shoot and assault too. Use spores or a lictor to take overwatch if you have too.

I don't see the need for a Malonthrope, all he will do is give you a cover save first turn and then be left behind. If you feel the need for that cover save turn 1, a Venomthrope will do the same. And give you 40 points spare.

Lists have become SO MUCH more interesting in the last week.

Before now every list was starting to look so very similar.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
So after spending quite a sum on a new Tamaskan dog Im laying off spending on WH40K for a bit. This is going to be my current TAC list as well as a competitive choice. I also think this list is FUN to play, which I can appreciate.

Spoiler:

1850 w/Devourers
Flyrant w/Devs Electro
Flyrant w/Devs Electro
Flyrant w/Devs Electro
Malanthrope
4x Rippers w/DS
3x Rippers w/DS
Mucolid
25x Gargoyles
25x Gargoyles
Carnifex w/Devourers in Tyrannocite w/Venomcannons
Mawloc
Mawloc
Bastion w/Comms

Other than the Bastion which I can buy cheap, all I have to do is paint up my Tyrannocite and 10 Gargoyles and be on my way.

Since they are so in vogue now, maybe I better drop a ripper and use a venomthrope instead so I can throw in a Lictor.

That Lictor would be a good fit with two Mawlocs popping up

No it wouldn't. A licttor would be a good fit if your goal is to give up first blood. We've seen Sean find success by SPAMMING lictors. That doesn't make a single lictor viable. Unless you are looking to build a list around Lictors, you should probably stick with what you've got. It is a very good list, and should work well for you. No reason to ever take 4 Rippers, so you could spread out those points to an upgrade on the carnifex, Mawloc or a few extra gargoyles.

Well, a single lictor isn't hard to hide either...its only terri-bad if you fight tau with regularity.

Nah, with numbers you can secure your DS, you can't do it with one. Taking one Lictor is indeed (in your words) terribad.

I'd like to chime in and say that I've been running lictors in various lists throughout 6th and 7th edition. While my gameplay experiences are mostly casual pickup games at my local store, i have to say that I have always loved the look of lictors so I made use of them.

Having a ton of 1-model MSU units that are still capable of scrapping most light and medium tanks in the game via CC is a nice tactic. It means that most times the enemy will overkill one or two of them, leaving the rest free to assault and return some damage. This is why i haven't used the Lictor forest brood much - 5 lictors in one unit will hit like a truck, but its downside is the enemy has 1 unit to focus on for return fire, and the brood doesnt' often stay locked in CC so they're always getting shot at.

My favorite lictor trick is popping them out of synapse in cover, or out of LOS. If they manage to get shot by anything that doesn't ignore cover, g2g for a 2+ cover save keeps them alive most times. Then a flyrant swoops over in my movement phase, makes them fearless, and they stand up ready to move and assault.

I also like the fact that the Dimachaeron is in a very lictor-y pose. If he had cthulu tentacles that would be awesome.

 ductvader wrote:
Well, a single lictor isn't hard to hide either...its only terri-bad if you fight tau with regularity.

True, but if you are hiding, you aren't going to be able to guide in the Mawlocs or contribute in other ways that a Malanthrope Can.

For the record I was joking about taking one Lictor.

I love the model. I dont love the points cost and the idea of a stealthy assassin hunting its target for months only to reveal himself and stand still to be shot at for a turn.

Since Sean's win I've taken the Deathleaper's Assassin Brood twice for 2 tablings! 1 against Iron Hands and 1 against Orks.

 Zande4 wrote:
Since Sean's win I've taken the Deathleaper's Assassin Brood twice for 2 tablings! 1 against Iron Hands and 1 against Orks.

We you the one who got tabled?