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2014/11/20 23:58:24
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
So I was doing some thinking about the new options that we have with Leviathan (which I fully expect to be tournament-legal. You can't ban that without banning things like the Nemesis Strike Force, or Farsight Enclaves. And no one is even thinking about banning things like that).
Anyhow, something occurred to me (this is a trip of rationale through my mind coming up - you can skip to the end result of the list at the end if you want, but you'll miss out on some sparkling conversation). We have all been drooling over how many flying hive tyrants we can have (and don't get me wrong - I still need to wear a bib myself), but it's actually pretty sweet that we have nine troop slots in the Leviathan FOC. "But our troops suck! And they won't get obsec if they're in leviathan, so that's poopy!"
Well said, my hypothetical friend. However, we have access to a troop choice that isn't obsec anyway, so it has no penalty for being in leviathan, and is cheap enough to entertain some spam (oh yes, the Mucolid). 135 points gets you 9 strength 8 AP 3 blasts, or 9 units on the table if you miss/decide to miss intentionally. These blasts won't ignore jink or cover straight up, but they are barrage so some cover is definitely negated. Also, if they survive and get to assault, then they do actually ignore cover. And if they don't survive, then your opponent spent an entire turn shooting at a 15 point unit. Sounds pretty good to me. How would one list-build around these bad boys?
Well, you want a couple of things:
1) a reserves manipulator to get them to come in when you want - Hello bastion with comms relay
2) something to reduce randomness of scatter (I decided to give our friends the living homing beacon a try. That's right, LICTORS)
Incredibly, this is still 10 points short at 1840 haha. Couldn't quite fit that last Mucolid. Obviously, it's a re-imagining of Sean's list that won the GT (but with a couple less lictors). What you gain, though, by dropping the Lictor formation, I believe is much greater than what you lose. Not the least of which is a third flyrant.
NamelessBard wrote: While most of the unit write ups seem solid, I am very confused by the grades.
For example, in no world should the tyranid prime be considered an A because it's cheap. It's not cheap.
Cheap is subjective. I use it in the literal sense. You're bringing the bare minimum HQ unit, and I rather pointedly said that your not bringing it for extreme murdering. If your bringing something cheap, it's because your putting the other 80+s you would have fielded on an HQ elsewhere.
But that's silly. A prime + 80 is a complete waste of points. You won't get better mileage out of those 80 points in something else than a flyrant.
I think of the bigger game in mind. If your playing up to a big tourney and you start fielding Flyrants in spades, your opponent will expect you to bring Flyrants. And lets just say he and a couple others decide to bring in plenty of AA units, he is going to be more than a little upset when you bring along more than enough ground pounding TMCs. 80 points. That is the difference between a Carnifex and a Dimachaeron. 80 points. That is a Tyrannocyte and change. 80 points. That can be the difference between a Biovore and an Exocrine. 80 points can go a long way when you spend it right.
Unyielding, I don't mean to nit-pick your review of the Prime; however the idea that you're being "counter-meta" by not bringing Flyrants is incorrect. Most armies fail to bring AA, not the other way around. That's part of why flyrants work - because they effectively are counter-meta (except for Daemons causing people to want AA). Now, yes, it ABSOLUTELY is cheaper than a flyrant. By a ton. But when you ask yourself what you're actually getting for those points that you are spending, and it gets murkier. I could field a Malanthrope and accomplish much of what you're advocating with the prime for even less. I could skimp and just drop 50 for a Zoanthrope. If I NEED an HQ, Deathleaper is actually just as durable (if not more so) than the prime and still cheaper than the prime.
So for example, if you wanted to say to someone "if you want to get a super cheap HQ that is also a source of synapse and is surprisingly durable if you stick him in a squad of gribblies, then the Prime is a decent choice". However, you kind of have to add the caveat that it is still not a very good buy for the points. What you get with the model is not consummate with the points that you DO spend on him, regardless of what his opportunity cost is. Your final part of that quote, "80 points can go a long way when you spend it right" is absolutely true. And i think that the flip side of that coin (it won't go very far if you don't spend it right) is pretty much exactly how I would characterize the usage of a prime in most situations and armies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 00:07:17
2014/11/21 00:09:57
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I may be misreading your intent... but I dont think you can drop spore mines or mucloids on people. They only explode in assault. Unless Im missing the ball somewhere.
2014/11/21 00:39:09
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
OrdoSean wrote: I may be misreading your intent... but I dont think you can drop spore mines or mucloids on people. They only explode in assault. Unless Im missing the ball somewhere.
You are not misreading my intent and I do appear to be incorrect. Oddly non-fluffy, but they appear to mishap if they go over another unit (and it's questionable if they are even able to target over a unit. Though of course, why would you if they don't explode?
I am interested to know if you think that Leviathan brings enough to the table to merit ditching the DLAB and running them through a combination of Leviathan and a normal Codex: Tyranids CAD instead. More small troops! More mines!
2014/11/21 01:25:37
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Personally... I think that army restrictions should basically be more like one main detachment and one secondary thing. I would group the CAD, and things like Real Space Raiders, Champions of Fenris and this new Tyranid formation, basically anything that looks like a full force org would be grouped under "Primary Detachments" and you could only take one of them. Along with that you could take one secondary detachment... either an allied detachment(the one that has only one of each slot) or a Formation or something else small and restricted.
I mean people rail against double CAD but thats basically what using a CAD plus a full force org detachment is. I also dont think there should be self ally.
Now since the stuff is legal for the moment its not something I would hold against someone at an event. I also dont fault players for searching for every advantage they can to compete.
That said I wont run double Cad and if asked I would try to push to a more restricted environment. As I think tough choices leads to more innovation and also makes for harder army building.
So the new Tyranid detachment doesnt offer anything to my #lictorshame army. It lacks a fortification slot, so no Bastion no comms. I would look at it as a strong building block to a 3-4 tyrant list(would get the 4th through the formation with the gargoyle bodyguard). But at the moment that list isnt something that appeals to me yet, though I can see the obvious strength of that many flyrants.
2014/11/21 02:02:39
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
OrdoSean wrote: Personally... I think that army restrictions should basically be more like one main detachment and one secondary thing. I would group the CAD, and things like Real Space Raiders, Champions of Fenris and this new Tyranid formation, basically anything that looks like a full force org would be grouped under "Primary Detachments" and you could only take one of them. Along with that you could take one secondary detachment... either an allied detachment(the one that has only one of each slot) or a Formation or something else small and restricted.
I mean people rail against double CAD but thats basically what using a CAD plus a full force org detachment is. I also dont think there should be self ally.
Now since the stuff is legal for the moment its not something I would hold against someone at an event. I also dont fault players for searching for every advantage they can to compete.
That said I wont run double Cad and if asked I would try to push to a more restricted environment. As I think tough choices leads to more innovation and also makes for harder army building.
So the new Tyranid detachment doesnt offer anything to my #lictorshame army. It lacks a fortification slot, so no Bastion no comms. I would look at it as a strong building block to a 3-4 tyrant list(would get the 4th through the formation with the gargoyle bodyguard). But at the moment that list isnt something that appeals to me yet, though I can see the obvious strength of that many flyrants.
That is a fair point, and I think you're right that double CAD can be over the top. It's just becoming tougher and tougher to deny so many things that are starting to look like a CAD. You do also give up obsec, so it's not as though these types of armies aren't without drawbacks. But many times it's just starting to look more and more like a battle forged army that is unbound in pretty much every way. It's never been tougher to be a TO than it currently is, with the list of exceptions and "what ifs" and "is this a legal army" becoming longer than my arm. I think that, in the end, many will give in to GW's will (which is clearly to let people play whatever they want).
I think I've mentioned this before, but my group is going to set up a tournament that will literally allow anything that is legal by GW's standards (including all LOW, however many CADs you want, FW, etc) just to see what happens. An idea we're toying around with is giving out a first prize that is a smashed up trophy that is glued back together (for the "most broken army") and giving out prizes that are determined by methods other than your win/loss record or battle points. So people can play to win games but still have winnings even if they bring a fluffy army and lose all their games. Not really a typical tournament per se, but I think that it will be interesting to see what happens when all bets are off (hoping for the best but also acknowledging the potential for abuse)
2014/11/21 02:37:14
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Bio-Artefacts of the Tyranids Available to Hive Tyrants, Tervigons, Tyranid Primes, and Trygon Primes.
Spoiler:
•The Maw-Claws of Thyrax A cheap melee choice, when used to kill an enemy model they grant the user Preferred Enemy. Coming stock with Rending, it shouldn't be too hard to get this bonus.
•Hive Tyrant-
Usually you'll be taking Dual Devourers and wings, so there's usually no room for a melee weapon. On top of this, the Tyrant can take Old Adversary(reroll hits and wounds of 1 in CC) for 5 more points, and not have the stipulation of needing to kill a model with it. It should be focused on CC anyway(2 melee weapons), so the bonus to shooting is useless.
Grade:F
•Tervigon-
With such a low initiative, and only one set of melee weapons, Maw-Claws are generally useless on a Tervigon.
Grade:F
•Tyranid Prime-
A Tyranid Prime can make use of the cheap Maw-Claws. Only five more points than Rending Claws, they're a decent choice for a melee oriented Prime.
Loadout: Maw-Claws, Lash Whip and Bonesword, Flesh Hooks, Adrenal Glands.
Grade:B
•Trygon Prime-
Generally assumed to be a Melee Monster anyway, Maw-Claws are a good choice for a Trygon Prime. It doesn't lose it's shooting attack or dual weapon bonus by taking Maw-Claws so it can make full use of Preferred Enemy after killing an enemy model.
Loadout: Maw-Claws. No other biomorphs necessary.
Grade:A
•The Miasma Cannon Sporting two profiles, this Poisoned(2+) weapon is versatile when it comes to killing infantry. It can reach out and touch someone with a 36" blast, or get up close and personal with a template. Unfortunately, a lot of the time Tyranids don't need additional infantry killing weapons so this weapon is often left by the wayside.
•Hive Tyrant-
Again, the preferred loadout of 2x Dual Devourers means that you won't often see a tyrant with this bio-weapon, if at all. It could see some use as a dedicated infantry hunter spurting out two templates at a time.
Loadout: Wings, Miasma Cannon, Electroshock Grubs, Stranglethorn Cannon
Grade: D
•Tervigon-
Tervigons can find some use out of a Miasma Cannon, either sitting back and taking pot shots, or getting in close with dual templates.
Loadout:Electroshock Grubs, Miasma Cannon
Grade:C
•Tyranid Prime-
The only way to get a second bio-cannon in a group of warriors, the Miasma Cannon can give some extra "oomph" to a dedicated shooting unit either podding in, or camping a backfield objective.
Loadout- Miasma Cannon, and that's all a gunboat would need.
Grade:B
•Trygon Prime-
Trygon Primes are usually more assault oriented, but being an MC they can fire two weapons. The Miasma Cannon is the only way to get that second weapon, but at the cost of a dual melee weapon bonus. Adding more points to make an already expensive melee unit more shooty is generally not recommended.
Loadout- Miasma Cannon, and perhaps Toxin Sacs to carry on a Poison theme if wanted.
Grade: D
•Norn Crown This "Artefact" will add 6" to the synapse range of the bearer. This will stack with other bonuses to synapse, such as warlord traits, formation bonuses, and Dominion. If you're worried about synapse coverage, you may consider this option but it comes at a very steep cost. There are not any recommended loadouts specifically, because it doesn't directly benefit melee or shooting. It's more of a passive bonus.
Grade: D
•Ymgarl Factor The only way for Tyranids to upgrade to a 2+ save, and it only applies to melee, and not in consecutive turns. As a pure melee biomorph with marginal benefits, very expensive, and being somewhat random I can't recommend taking this Artefact.
Grade:F
•The Reaper of Obliterax A Lash Whip and Bonesword on steroids with a price tag to match, this can be a decent alternative to the stock LS/BS if you can spare the points. Granting +1 Strength and Shred plus the stock LS/BS benefits this can be recommended for melee-based Tyranids.
•Hive Tyrant-
Melee Tyrants are usually outshined by their Dakka brethren, but if you're dead set on taking one I would recommend this option if you have the points to spare. He will greatly increase the damage capabilities of the Tyrant.
Loadout- Reaper, Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Wings, Electroshock Grub
Grade:B
•Tervigon-
This is far too expensive to put on a creature with such poor CC stats. I don't recommend using this on a Tervigon.
Grade:F
•Tyranid Prime-
A melee Prime could make use of this option, bumping him up to a base strength of 6 and shred. Although, this is an expensive option and will make his cost skyrocket in comparison to other Tyranids- bumping him up over the base cost of a Hive Tyrant.
Loadout-Reaper, Scything Talons, Flesh Hooks, Adrenal Glands
Grade:C
•Trygon Prime-
Putting an expensive upgrade on an already expensive(some would say overcosted) model is usually not a good idea. The Trygon Prime can really benefit from the Reaper, but before any other upgrades he's close to 300 points, and he just doesn't have the survivability to really justify that.
Loadout- Reaper. That's really all there is to it.
Grade: D
I should note I'm not grading the unit, but the Artefact's usefulness to the unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, any recommendations regarding formatting are welcome.
As are any other recommendations...
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/11/21 02:44:24
Has there been discussion by you guys on what a reroll of IB check is? There really isn't a specific IB test.
Is it the Ld test? Or the roll on the chat? Or both?
My thought was Ld test. Some people were rabid that it was just the chart reroll.
seanster3000 on the hive just noticed something. In the fighter ace table, it says that units automatically pass an IB test, so it's definitely at least the Ld test part.
2014/11/21 05:18:02
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
My thought was Ld test. Some people were rabid that it was just the chart reroll.
seanster3000 on the hive just noticed something. In the fighter ace table, it says that units automatically pass an IB test, so it's definitely at least the Ld test part.
I think that's a great observation!
2000 pts
Compel wrote:
Because in a universe where the basic weapon is a rocket propelled grenade machine gun, with gigantic battletanks, 5 kilometer long spaceships, huge robots and power armoured supersoldiers, the most powerful guy you want to field on a battlefield is a bloke in a pointy hat carrying a stick.
2014/11/21 09:15:23
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Hey guys, I'm thinking of making a Tyranid/Dark Eldar Covens list, making use of their -1 to Leadership formations so that the Neurothrope/Hive Tyrants/Loleceptor can do more damage with their Psychic Powers.
Will post a draft list later, but what are your first impressions?
YMDC = nightmare
2014/11/21 09:48:09
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Trygon/Trygon Prime: My, how the mighty assault beast has fallen. The trygon went from first-class killer in the previous edition to a respectable but somewhat over-priced assault unit in this edition. Two main factors contribute to his downgrade. First is that he lost his ability to re-roll hits in close combat. The second is not really his fault but rather, changes to 7th Edition. The core rule changes have made him not as effective in dealing with vehicles as he used to be (back in the previous edition). Combine these nerfs with the typical Tyranid weaknesses in assault - lack of grenades and the lack of an Invulnerable save - and you have an assault unit that can only handle small to mid-size, non-Invulnerable units with any modicum of reliability. But pit him against slightly better assault units and you will see why he isn't as effective in combat as many of his peers.
Another item of note is the perception of him being over-costed. Now he has gone down by 10-pts from the previous edition and yet he is still considered over-costed. Why is that? That is because his cost has not come down nearly enough in comparison to some of the other TMC's (Tyranid monstrous creatures) in the book. Many of the other TMC's have gone down much more considerably in price. Moreover, those same units have gone up in quality. Units like the flyrant, carnifexes, mawlocs and even the tyrannofex have come down in cost considerably, and yet the units have only gotten better. So now you are paying substantially less for units that have gotten much more efficient in this edition. And then you have the trygon, who has come down in price only marginally but who has actually gotten worse in performance compared to how he was previously. No wonder why people are calling him over-priced.
Despite his shortcomings, the trygon can still contribute to a Tyranid army:
1. No matter how much he has gone down in efficiency, this guy is still an Assault threat to many units in the game. As such, he will command the attention (or resources) of the enemy to deal with.
2. Mobility. While not the fastest unit in the codex, his ability to deepstrike offers some flexibility to the army as well as the mobility to get him to where you want/need him. The fact that he is Fleet also makes him slightly faster than many other units in the codex and helps to increase his threat range (and therefore, his area-of-denial range). Also, his ability to deepstrike saves you the cost of having to get him a tyrannocyte spore pod, thus actually making him slightly cheaper than some of the other assault units in the codex.
3. Bullet magnet. He is still a bullet magnet that can and will draw a lot of enemy fire. He is also resilient enough to be able to absorb much of this firepower.
4. The trygon hole (Subterranean Assault). Subterranean Assault offers more tactical flexibility to the army, giving a ground-based Tyranid army more options for deployment than it would normally have. Now whether or not it is used all that much nowadays is another matter entirely.
The trygon prime is even less effective than its cheaper cousin. Offensively, he is no different from his lesser cousin. What you do get for the 40 extra points is a Synapse creature with Shadows in the Warp as well as double the number of shots on the trygon's gun (which nets down to an extra 3 hits for the trygon prime). Really, it isn't worth it. Rarely will his Synapse be effective as most of the time, he will die from enemy shooting/offense on the opponent's turn. Unless you really need his synapse on the field - maybe because you aren't taking enough/any flyrants - more often than not, you'd be better off going for the cheaper trygon over the trygon prime.
Grades: C- (Trygon), D (Trygon Prime)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 09:48:42
The raveners are a fast assault unit capable of deepstriking and quite killy once they get in contact with stuff. For the same cost as a warrior you get an upgrade to beast type and a bonus to initiative, while losing on Synapse and 1 point of armor.
This makes the raveners quite a glasscannon. Here is a little summary of the main aspects of raveners:
1) Fast: 12" movement, fleet and ignore terrain. Do i need to say more? This is the fastest non flying model in the tyranid codex.
2) Killy: High I, High WS, S4 with loads of attacks and upgradeable to rending claws for an honest price. These guys will pop transports, kill MSU and any non assault dedicated units with ease. With 7th and the new smash rules they can be a threat to many monstrous creatures.
3)Frail: With the same cost per wound of a warrior sporting only a 5+ and T4 will make you a juicy target for small weapons, while at the same time being a 3W T4 will also make you a good target of big weapons. In fact no matter what shoots at you, you will be it's favorite target 9 times out of 10.
4) Good but costly customization: Raveners can be upgraded to get rending claws, and if you field them you should always get those claws. Raveners can also get a small thorax weapon, which means that they get to be shooty without sacrificing the double melee set. Problem is that said thorax weapons cost really a lot, taking your raveners into a whole new level of glass cannons. Don't do that possibly, you will paint a big (bigger) target over their heads.
Raveners main role is quite straightforward: turn 1 advance behind LOS blocking terrain. Turn 2 get in there and break stuff.
Alternatively you can deep strike them and assault the following turn, which can be a necessary choice depending on the terrain pieces on the table. Don't multi assault, raveners are not models who can afford to get returning hits in melee, that Initiative and offensive stats are there for a reason. Use them as discardable one assault units, a min unit of raveners can easily make back it's points in a single assault. For the same reason avoid at all costs assaulting units in cover, you can't afford to give up the first strike.
By the previous description one would think that these guys could have a place into some list, so why are they so rarely seen? The answer is Shrikes. In the same FOC slot and for the same cost the Shrikes trade a bit of speed and one point of Initiative for synapse and better upgrades, including flesh hooks. They don't get thorax weapons, but they also don't get such high costs.
99% of the times shrikes are a better choice over raveners.
Like Shrikes having raveners on the field when there are Tau Smart Missiles around is a BAD idea.
Grades: D. They would be C without Shrikes, so if for any reason you don't want/can't field shrikes then these guys are C quality.
Red Terror
A big bad ravener with T5, S5 and the worst model in the Tyranid miniature range (sorry biovores). This guy is the only possible reason why you would consider raveners over shrikes. He comes at quite the cost, with each one of his wounds costing almost as much as a full ravener. He also has quite the tail, hitting at S6 and one of the most trollish rules in the game. If RT hits the same unit with 4 attacks in a turn excluding the tail (and he has 6 attacks at high WS on the charge) he can choose one model in base contact and remove him short of an invul save. While it doesn't work on models bigger than a terminator the way this is worded means that you are eluding a good chunk of defensive rules, with highlights on Look Out Sir! and Eternal Warrior. This guy is the last thing Marneus wants to fight. He also has the great role of being the meat shield for the other raveners in the unit. T5 is much harder to ID and if S10 is on the way then you can always Look Out Sir. He also has an important 4+. Remember though to Look Out anything that isn't S8, S9 or AP 5.
Too bad he can't take rending claws.
Having RT in your unit changes the role of the raveners from one shot unit to imposing unit. You can't simply throw him away at the first assault, if he is in you are pointing (and paying) at something more, like a reliable tank hunting unit (with that S6 tail and S5 attacks he pops tanks easily, and the unit has the mobility for it). Shroud granters are mandatory to protect this investment.
2 thing to remember:
1) Raveners have no grenades and RT is not exception.
2) He is not a synaptic model.
Grades: C.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/11/21 16:56:58
2014/11/21 13:29:25
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Good write up on the Raveners, and the Trygons too. It's sad about Raveners, they are such a cool model and not THAT bad on the field, they are just Shrikes -1 however so there is no point to them outside the Red Terror.
Since you mentioned Shrikes in your Raveners assessment, I think it's worth mentioning Mawlocs in your Trygon one. For almost the exact same price of 2 Trygons you can get 3 Mawlocs, who will just do everything better.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/21 13:30:12
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Woohoo! Finally got that essay out of the way Onto the Tervigon review. I've decided not to do a Red/Amber/Green analysis this time as other people aren't doing it, but if you guys prefer me doing it (as with the Carnifex review on pg 1) then post a comment and I will edit.
Spoiler:
Tervigon Background The Tervigon first arrived in 5th edition and was one of the best units in the Codex at that time. By simply paying for a minimum size unit of Termagants, you could take a Tervigon as a Troops choice, meaning it was the only Objective Secured Monster. In addition to this, it could also grant Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands to nearby Termagants simply by purchasing it for themselves. Better still, it could create Termagants by itself! They could also trade their Psychic Powers for Biomancy ones, making them even more durable. The only downside was if it died it usually took out nearby Termagants with it's Synaptic Backlash. For these reasons, it was common to see competitive lists spam Tervigons. When the new Codex arrived, everybody expected the Tervigon to be nerfed, but nobody expected it to be nerfed as hard as it was. It increased in points, but was nerfed harder still; it can no longer grant Adrenal Glands/Toxin Sacs to nearby Termagants, lost the ability to take Biomancy powers, doubled the range of it's Synaptic Backlash, increasing the number of Termagants it will likely take down.The biggest thing though, it now requires a maximum unit size of Termagants to be taken as a Troops choice, which is a considerable points investment, despite Termagants themselves getting cheaper. With 7th edition, it was nerfed still, since it was the only Monstrous Creature that could score in 6th. In 7th, it lost that niche. To make matters worse for the Tervigon, tournaments are ruling that any Termagants spawned by it do not have Objective Secured.
Competitive usage As explained in the background, it has several glaring drawbacks to taking a Tervigon. It must either pay a large points tax to be taken as a Troops choice, or compete with the Flyrant in the HQ slot. So where might a Tervigon fit in?
The Tervigon is not an offensive machine in combat, nor is it a gunline sharpshooter. It is strictly a support unit and should only be taken once in a competitive list. Here are some strengths of taking a Tervigon.
1) It can still generate Termagants, which can act as a roadblock or tarpit for dangerous units, allowing the rest of a Tyranid army to deal with other units and take control of the battlefield.
2) The Tervigon also has access to some unique Biomorphs not available to all Tyranid Monstrous Creatures. The most notable of these are Electroshock Grubs and Crushing Claws. This allows a Tervigon to act as a vehicle killer and deters Imperial Knights from charging for fear of D3 Haywire hits from Wall of Death. The Tervigon also has access to Bio-artifacts, see the Bio-artifacts section for recommended purchases.
3) The Tervigon is one of the most durable Tyranid Monstrous Creatures in the Codex and is the most durable Synapse unit that Tyranids have. This allows it to act as a Synapse beacon for your Ground forces and allows a Tyranid player to use their Flyrants and other fast options more aggressively.
4) The Tervigon is a Level 1 Psyker, which means it generates a WC for your other Psykers to use. It can also make use of some powers, such as Catalyst, to keep a Tyranid army and itself alive, allowing the army to continue function.
5) It can be given Objective Secured, meaning it can claim an objective right from under an opponents nose. This can be very useful in Maelstrom missions when you need to get an objective that is being held by a non-Objective Secured troop.
6) In smaller point games, it can create a larger percentage of points-worth of troops. This can give an advantage to a Tyranid player as they will, essentially, be using more points than the opponent.
Overall rating - C
The Tervigon is by no-means a unit not worthy of consideration in a competitive list, as it does something that no other unit in the army can. However, it is not the auto-include that it was in 5th edition and competitive lists can take other options over the Tervigon.
@jy2 Personally I think the Trygon Prime should have a slightly higher rating, it can also take Bio-Artifacts (e.g. Reaper of Obliterax gives +1 Strength and Shred, Maw-Claws give PE) so it can be kitted out to be a monster in CC. I don't think it's the best HS to take, but it does have that option available to it.
Also I'm going to use this list in a 1500 point game tomoroow
2x Carnifexes w/ 2x Twin-Linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms each = 300 Exocrine = 170 Mawloc = 140
Tyrannocyte = 75 Tyrannocyte = 75 =1500
You may be wondering why I don't have a Venom/Malan. Well...I don't have the models. My Malanthrope arrives next week and I've always been allowed to proxy Venomthropes at my old gaming club as I do not like resin. Sigh.
In any case I should be able to report on how well Devilgants and Exocrines do out of Pods. Long live Nidbury Eggs!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/21 13:54:18
YMDC = nightmare
2014/11/21 13:40:39
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Really good Tervigon write up. I will say that I expected the nerf, and actually expected it to be harder. It's a crappy unit now, but I was expecting Maleceptor tier to sell new models as much as possible.
Trygon Prime should definitely not be higher. Taking a kitted out Prime may be a more unique option, however it's just an even worse one. Take one Bioartifact and you are now Swarmlord tier in cost of points, except you are much worse, and the Swarmlord is already crazy overpriced.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/21 14:09:23
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I will say that the Ravener isn't not given as much credit as it should for purpose alone.
A Ravener is to a Shrike as a Hormagaunt is to a Termagant.
Shrikes should be shooting and can assault when need be...but Raveners should be moving forward always. This also means that they're even faster as they spend every turn running and are never sidetracked by shooting.
But why would you when the difference in speed is beyond minimal, Shrikes can have the same amount of attacks for the same price, and they get Synapse for free plus the option of upgrading into assault grenades + rending, as well as a bunch of other cool gak. They also provide cover saves much better, and project SitW, and save you the price of one other Synapse unit.
Other than a situational increase in speed, what exactly do Raveners have... Horms and Terms are very different
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/21 14:32:22
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
NamelessBard wrote: Has there been discussion by you guys on what a reroll of IB check is? There really isn't a specific IB test.
Is it the Ld test? Or the roll on the chat? Or both?
My thought was Ld test. Some people were rabid that it was just the chart reroll.
seanster3000 on the hive just noticed something. In the fighter ace table, it says that units automatically pass an IB test, so it's definitely at least the Ld test part.
You never really know with GW, but also note that the language for Ideal Mission Commander immediately below it specifically references re-rolling on the Warlord Traits table. The language is different, suggesting that it's a different thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 14:44:37
I would swap the final grading on the Trygon and Trygon Prime, but generally agree with you there. A little insight to my thinking. The Trygon Prime is like a Tervigon that is way better at shooting and assault, but doesn't poop out gants. The Trygon is closer to a Hauspex that is better in assault and deep striking.
I will write a "View from the Maelstrom" on Raveners. Even in eternal war games, Ravener lists are a hard counter to many armies.
2014/11/21 15:58:09
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
zerosignal wrote: So... the fighter ace rule is a bit broken on flyrants, right?
I mean - your opponent can't ever kill it?
It's marginally ambiguous, but I believe that you can only ever take one fighter ace. Even if you could take 3 or 4, I don't know that I would. Sure, it's broken when you pay 35 points for a 5/6 and very good when it's a 3/4 but it's also quite poopy when you pay 35 points to increase synapse range by 3 inches, which happens 1/3 of the time. So you have to increase the effective points cost by 33%, bringing it up for 47 points (roughly). Would you pay 47 points for a 50/50 chance at either an extra wound or the flying off table buff? I don't know if I would. I would gladly pay 50 to get the flying off the table thing every time, but that's the problem with GW. They seem to not want to give us predictability and try to introduce randomness at every turn (poor Daemons). In some ways, this is good game design because you will be able to play mirror matchups and have them turn out differently each time. But in other regards (like list-building consistency and tournament performance) it's not so great.
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tag8833 wrote: Good write-ups on Bio-artefacts and Tervigons.
I would swap the final grading on the Trygon and Trygon Prime, but generally agree with you there. A little insight to my thinking. The Trygon Prime is like a Tervigon that is way better at shooting and assault, but doesn't poop out gants. The Trygon is closer to a Hauspex that is better in assault and deep striking.
I will write a "View from the Maelstrom" on Raveners. Even in eternal war games, Ravener lists are a hard counter to many armies.
I definitely agree that Raveners are under-appreciated. They're not going to win tournaments, no, but talk to wraiths. You want to waste your strength 8 on my 3+ save? Be my guest - they're not as expensive as your missile launcher platform, I promise. You know, unless you're IG. You'll always be screening them with Gargoyles (or should be, anyhow) and if they kill your Malanthrope in 1-2 turns....well...you're going to have a tough game on your hands anyhow. My list for them goes with a wave 2 arrival of....well....my entire army. They will not be high on your opponent's target priority list and they will do work with those claws. I probably would give them a solid C
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 16:03:16
2014/11/21 16:15:55
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I definitely agree that Raveners are under-appreciated. They're not going to win tournaments, no, but talk to wraiths. You want to waste your strength 8 on my 3+ save? Be my guest - they're not as expensive as your missile launcher platform, I promise. You know, unless you're IG. You'll always be screening them with Gargoyles (or should be, anyhow) and if they kill your Malanthrope in 1-2 turns....well...you're going to have a tough game on your hands anyhow. My list for them goes with a wave 2 arrival of....well....my entire army. They will not be high on your opponent's target priority list and they will do work with those claws. I probably would give them a solid C
And C is what i gave them indeed, at least if shrikes were not there. Why what you said wouldn't work with shrikes? Except that they are a synapse source for said gargoiles?
2014/11/21 16:25:47
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Lots of normal Flyrant Ace Dakka with a good Warp charge pool. The 3 Venoms shroud most of the force with the Toxi coming in the pod. I teally like to use the HC to Outflank the Tervi and it's resilence copled with it's ability to make it's own bubble wrap has won me many games and its also another psychic
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/21 16:34:39
2014/11/21 16:35:01
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
The raveners are a fast assault unit capable of deepstriking and quite killy once they get in contact with stuff. For the same cost as a warrior you get an upgrade to beast type and a bonus to initiative, while losing on Synapse and 1 point of armor.
This makes the raveners quite a glasscannon. Here is a little summary of the main aspects of raveners:
Frozocrone wrote: Woohoo! Finally got that essay out of the way Onto the Tervigon review. I've decided not to do a Red/Amber/Green analysis this time as other people aren't doing it, but if you guys prefer me doing it (as with the Carnifex review on pg 1) then post a comment and I will edit.
Tervigon Background
The Tervigon first arrived in 5th edition and was one of the best units in the Codex at that time. By simply paying for a minimum size unit of Termagants, you could take a Tervigon as a Troops choice, meaning it was the only Objective Secured Monster. In addition to this, it could also grant Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands to nearby Termagants simply by purchasing it for themselves. Better still, it could create Termagants by itself! They could also trade their Psychic Powers for Biomancy ones, making them even more durable. The only downside was if it died it usually took out nearby Termagants with it's Synaptic Backlash. For these reasons, it was common to see competitive lists spam Tervigons. When the new Codex arrived, everybody expected the Tervigon to be nerfed, but nobody expected it to be nerfed as hard as it was. It increased in points, but was nerfed harder still; it can no longer grant Adrenal Glands/Toxin Sacs to nearby Termagants, lost the ability to take Biomancy powers, doubled the range of it's Synaptic Backlash, increasing the number of Termagants it will likely take down.The biggest thing though, it now requires a maximum unit size of Termagants to be taken as a Troops choice, which is a considerable points investment, despite Termagants themselves getting cheaper. With 7th edition, it was nerfed still, since it was the only Monstrous Creature that could score in 6th. In 7th, it lost that niche. To make matters worse for the Tervigon, tournaments are ruling that any Termagants spawned by it do not have Objective Secured.
Thanks guys! Just added your reviews to the main tactica.
Frozocrone wrote: @jy2 Personally I think the Trygon Prime should have a slightly higher rating, it can also take Bio-Artifacts (e.g. Reaper of Obliterax gives +1 Strength and Shred, Maw-Claws give PE) so it can be kitted out to be a monster in CC. I don't think it's the best HS to take, but it does have that option available to it.
Also I'm going to use this list in a 1500 point game tomoroow
2x Carnifexes w/ 2x Twin-Linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms each = 300
Exocrine = 170
Mawloc = 140
Tyrannocyte = 75
Tyrannocyte = 75
=1500
You may be wondering why I don't have a Venom/Malan. Well...I don't have the models. My Malanthrope arrives next week and I've always been allowed to proxy Venomthropes at my old gaming club as I do not like resin. Sigh.
In any case I should be able to report on how well Devilgants and Exocrines do out of Pods. Long live Nidbury Eggs!
With regards to the trygon prime, I respectfully disagree. What the trygon/tprime really needs back are its re-rolls to hit. Reapers doesn't do all that much except make it much more bloated in price, taking him into near-Swarmlord territory (costwise). The benefits of the reaper is marginal at best. It helps against vehicles and other MC's, but against the majority of infantry units, all you are really paying for is shred and a bump in Initiative (which doesn't matter if you have to charge through terrain anyways). At 10-pts, the maw-claws is ok but still, it makes an already expensive beast even more costly with only marginal benefits. However, neither does anything to help increase its durability as it is just as easy to kill with shooting, only now, you've lost a signicantly more expensive unit. To me, the risk/rewards of most of the unique wargear are not worth it unless you can hide your unit in a larger unit (a la flyrant accompanied by 20-60 gargoyle bodyguards in the Skytide formation).
Good luck with your battle. Let us know how those units performed and how you did!
Lots of normal Flyrant Ace Dakka with a good Warp charge pool. The 3 Venoms shroud most of the force with the Toxi coming in the pod. I teally like to use the HC to Outflank the Tervi and it's resilence copled with it's ability to make it's own bubble wrap has won me many games and its also another psychic
Do you mean to have a toxicreine in there?
I'm fairly sure you can only have one Ace.
Tervigon or Toxicrine in a pod? You can choose at the start of the game.
Tervigon or 30 gaunts outflank?
I think you have way too many zoanthropes.
If you take off 2 Aces (there is three, right?), 2 zoanthropes and those extra gaunts thats 252 points. You can do a lot with those points.
Carnifex, tyrannofex, another Tyrannocyte, Dima.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 16:37:39
2014/11/21 16:39:29
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
(more)
(building)
2000 pts
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
My Malanthrope arrives next week and I've always been allowed to proxy Venomthropes at my old gaming club as I do not like resin. Sigh. 
