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barnowl wrote:


Most of the Pentrant list I am seeing are basicly not objective secured either. At most you have 2 ripper swarms, but usually I am seeing Muscaloids for all the required Troop choices which forgoes scoring completely. So not much difference in practice from the lists in use for OS.

It's true that we're seeing Mucolids as required troops choices in some cases; however they can't score at all so that is even worse. The reason why some lists are able to go light on obsec is because our units are often small and easy to hide and thus more durable. But no matter what you do, a dearth of obsec still means that you will be playing some variant of "table or lose" at the end of the game if it is close. I am experimenting with a list that only has 2 obsec units, but it also has 6 small units that can score, as well as ample anti-infantry so that I can kill the enemy's troops. Especially when we have 40-70 point troop choices, there really is no reason not to take them and gain objective secured. You lose roughly 30 points per troop choice to gain that (and more wounds) plus actual offensive capability. Really very little downside unless downgrading your troops (and it is a downgrade) is the difference in adding another MC or something (ie with 3 ripper squads I can't fit in a Mawloc but with 2 and 1 Mucolid I can). In such a case, it can be worthwhile. But you won't see any lists with no obsec and all Mucolids win a tournament. Guaranteed. If you can't score, you will lose

Copied myself from Jy2's battle report thread because i feel it merits discussion here as well:

So I was looking at the new Blood Angel detachment of 2-16 elites and had a thought...

"Is allowing Unbound such a bad thing?"

When 7th first hit, my first knee jerk reaction (along with many other folks) was that Unbound lists have no place in 40K aside from narrative casual games. But, with the rate of releases we've seen along with the myriad of dataslates and new detachments, 40K lists are largely able to do whatever they want and remain "Bound". An Unbound list has no command benefits, or special rules tied to it like these detachments and formations do.

At this point, I think I'm ready to change my stance on unbound armies. I doubt that I'm among the majority of 40K players on this, but honestly looking at what we've seen GW is pushing us in that direction regardless.

I mean, look at Jy2's completely LVO legal list that contains 5 Flyrants! Unbound is basically already here and legal, for some armies.

I say either take off all restrictions on list building, just make sure points costs and FOCs are lined up, or make it so only 1 CAD and 1 Ally FOC are allowed per player. This middle of the road style of list building still heavily favors some armies over others at the list building stage.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Copied myself from Jy2's battle report thread because i feel it merits discussion here as well:

So I was looking at the new Blood Angel detachment of 2-16 elites and had a thought...

"Is allowing Unbound such a bad thing?"

When 7th first hit, my first knee jerk reaction (along with many other folks) was that Unbound lists have no place in 40K aside from narrative casual games. But, with the rate of releases we've seen along with the myriad of dataslates and new detachments, 40K lists are largely able to do whatever they want and remain "Bound". An Unbound list has no command benefits, or special rules tied to it like these detachments and formations do.

At this point, I think I'm ready to change my stance on unbound armies. I doubt that I'm among the majority of 40K players on this, but honestly looking at what we've seen GW is pushing us in that direction regardless.

I mean, look at Jy2's completely LVO legal list that contains 5 Flyrants! Unbound is basically already here and legal, for some armies.

I say either take off all restrictions on list building, just make sure points costs and FOCs are lined up, or make it so only 1 CAD and 1 Ally FOC are allowed per player. This middle of the road style of list building still heavily favors some armies over others at the list building stage.

See I disagree with the premise of this statement. Whilst the amount of flexibility available has exploded recently, it is still inherently restrictive.

With the 2-16 elite detatchment, you still require a HQ and are very limited in which elite units you bring. Therefore, I feel unbound to be vastly less inhibiting and that is why is is generally frowned upon.

I will agree that these extreme detachments have some "limits". But when you look at things like venom spam DE with their 10 pt hq and 6 fast slots, or thunder wolf spam SW with 6 HQ slots, or even necron air, or pentyrant nids, or now a fully elite BA force -- the argument is there that spamming multiples of a really good, efficient unit is by and large possible for multiple armies. The natural response for a competitive environment should be to either allow it for everyone or restrict it for everyone. As it stands now it's not as balanced as it could be.

True unbound is not far away from simply allowing CTA allies. I think that the murder of the fluff is what causes many people to not want to allow those. Many detachments do now allow you to basically play unbound (with no obsec if you do desire). I don't see any of these lists as particularly strong (even pentyrant Nids are still going to bring some obsec in their CAD). Obsec definitely still matters, though perhaps not as much as it once did. But drop pod marine obsec spam is still a strong build no matter who it plays against. They still define the relevant "table or lose" motto that unbound/no obsec lists seem to live by.

I can see why people don't like the idea of unbound and CTA allies. Frankly, I'd like to try out Nids and Daemons in a tournament setting and see what happens. It's not like it's Daemons allied with Grey Knights (though you know that one special snowflake is going to bring that to a tournament as well). I don't think I'll ever be an advocate for true unbound at the tournament level however. All you're going to see is people spamming the most OP units from each book, and I have no doubt that a very strong list can be constructed when you can cover the weaknesses of one codex with the strengths of three other codecies. Deployment would be tough, but after that it's only a 1/6 chance of trouble, and that's only if a unit is within 6" of a trouble unit (CTA allies). It's really not as restrictive as most people think, especially if you have some alternative deployment methods.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Copied myself from Jy2's battle report thread because i feel it merits discussion here as well:

So I was looking at the new Blood Angel detachment of 2-16 elites and had a thought...

"Is allowing Unbound such a bad thing?"

When 7th first hit, my first knee jerk reaction (along with many other folks) was that Unbound lists have no place in 40K aside from narrative casual games. But, with the rate of releases we've seen along with the myriad of dataslates and new detachments, 40K lists are largely able to do whatever they want and remain "Bound". An Unbound list has no command benefits, or special rules tied to it like these detachments and formations do.

At this point, I think I'm ready to change my stance on unbound armies. I doubt that I'm among the majority of 40K players on this, but honestly looking at what we've seen GW is pushing us in that direction regardless.

I mean, look at Jy2's completely LVO legal list that contains 5 Flyrants! Unbound is basically already here and legal, for some armies.

I say either take off all restrictions on list building, just make sure points costs and FOCs are lined up, or make it so only 1 CAD and 1 Ally FOC are allowed per player. This middle of the road style of list building still heavily favors some armies over others at the list building stage.

GW is going to keep stretching the FOC until we all break and accept a meaningful limit on Army compositions. I'm at that point. JY2's list is LVO legal. I will not be taking a list like that to LVO.

Here's another legal list that might give you pause:


Limiting to 2 Sources isn't enough. Highlander is fine, but it is mainly a novelty or change of pace. Da Boyz approach is better, and acceptable, but not as nuanced or complete as I would like it to be. 1 CAD + 1 Ally is OK, I guess, but I don't want to give up on formations and imperial Knights, and everything else. For me, the answer isn't to stop trying to play meaningful games of 40k, it is to pick up the gauntlet thrown and fix the broken FOC system. I will be developing my own proposals and publishing them (My own Blog, maybe BOLS) as I complete them. Thankfully, I know there are lots of smarter people than I that will be working on the same problem, and will likely solve it first.

I'd go for the following:

Make lists by RAW rules except Cta and unbound with one exception, you can't take more choices of the same unit than the ones you have access to in one single detachment of your choice.

So you can get all CADs you want, but no more than 2 Flyrants (3 if you play leviathan), no more than 3 Anni barges and so on.

This would open the game to a lot of lists while cutting most of the cheese.

Sure some stuff will still get through as nearly broken, but it's better than now.

JY2, are you going to LVO and if so are you planning to smash face with 5 Flyrants?
Any idea if there will be any live coverage this year of tables?

Thoughts on current top 5 Codex's?

Eldar
Tyranids - yeah baby.
Imperial Knights
Daemons
Tau

- That feels about right to me.

Can anyone smell the return of Tau gunline to counter flyer heavy Nids?

 L0rdF1end wrote:
JY2, are you going to LVO and if so are you planning to smash face with 5 Flyrants?
Any idea if there will be any live coverage this year of tables?

Thoughts on current top 5 Codex's?

Eldar
Tyranids - yeah baby.
Imperial Knights
Daemons
Tau

- That feels about right to me.

Can anyone smell the return of Tau gunline to counter flyer heavy Nids?

I believe Jy2 stated he would not be running Pentyrant at tournaments.

Top 5 is tough now.

Tyranids (Pentyrant)
Eldar (Wave Serpents, Seers Council)
Knights (Ad lance)
Space Marines (Gravcent Stars w/ Grey Knights or White Scars)
Daemons / Necrons / Tau (not sure on this one)

I think Tau would need to bring a considerable amount of Skyrays before they could "counter" Pentyrant.

Regarding the podcast the Lictorshame dude was on, the interviewer and him were talking up Psychic Scream a lot. I just feel I should point out that it's a Nova power with a 6" range, following the rules for shooting. Meaning models outside range can't be affected. And seeing how you have to place the screamer at least 1" away from enemy units, you can rarely affect more than a few models. Less if they are large, more if they are on small bases and clumped up. It's best against Tyranids and Daemons (because SitW and expensive, pivotal models).

Very situational power.

 N.I.B. wrote:
Regarding the podcast the Lictorshame dude was on, the interviewer and him were talking up Psychic Scream a lot. I just feel I should point out that it's a Nova power with a 6" range, following the rules for shooting. Meaning models outside range can't be affected. And seeing how you have to place the screamer at least 1" away from enemy units, you can rarely affect more than a few models. Less if they are large, more if they are on small bases and clumped up. It's best against Tyranids and Daemons (because SitW and expensive, pivotal models).

Very situational power.

A Nova hits units not Models.

tag8833 wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:
Regarding the podcast the Lictorshame dude was on, the interviewer and him were talking up Psychic Scream a lot. I just feel I should point out that it's a Nova power with a 6" range, following the rules for shooting. Meaning models outside range can't be affected. And seeing how you have to place the screamer at least 1" away from enemy units, you can rarely affect more than a few models. Less if they are large, more if they are on small bases and clumped up. It's best against Tyranids and Daemons (because SitW and expensive, pivotal models).

Very situational power.

A Nova hits units not Models.

Shooting a boltgun hits units not models. What's your point regarding wound allocation?

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Shooting a boltgun hits units not models. What's your point regarding wound allocation?

Fair enough. The situations where this might arise are so very, very small for psychic scream, but grey Knights have been cheating me regularly with Cleansing Flame.

tag8833 wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Shooting a boltgun hits units not models. What's your point regarding wound allocation?

Fair enough. The situations where this might arise are so very, very small for psychic scream, but grey Knights have been cheating me regularly with Cleansing Flame.

Have to agree, I mean most of the time your only clipping off three or 4 hits against a unit any way most of the time.

played a coupe of 500 pts games today which where fun! The second game I played was against guard( 2 Vet squads with melta, Demolisher and command squad) . My first turn I started with just a Hive tyrant on the board with 2 Mucolids, a Tyrannocyte and a Carnifex in reserve. I went to cast warp lance, perilsed, rolled a 1, rolled double six on my leadership and tabled myself in my own turn 1.

It was awesome!

I do love 500 pts games though, they are great fun

 Wilson wrote:
played a coupe of 500 pts games today which where fun! The second game I played was against guard( 2 Vet squads with melta, Demolisher and command squad) . My first turn I started with just a Hive tyrant on the board with 2 Mucolids, a Tyrannocyte and a Carnifex in reserve. I went to cast warp lance, perilsed, rolled a 1, rolled double six on my leadership and tabled myself in my own turn 1.

It was awesome!

I do love 500 pts games though, they are great fun

IF you going to lose Turn 1, at least you did it in style. I am also a fan fo the sub 1000pt game.

So what are the differences between writing a list for Eternal War missions and Maelstrom missions(or any other format like the BAO tournaments)? Maelstrom favors high mobility, so does Eternal War favor castling up? Is there no difference?

 Sinful Hero wrote:
So what are the differences between writing a list for Eternal War missions and Maelstrom missions(or any other format like the BAO tournaments)? Maelstrom favors high mobility, so does Eternal War favor castling up? Is there no difference?

For me it is a difference of durability. Eternal war tends to reward durable scoring units much better more than Maelstrom. In EW missions once you have an objective you have to be able to stay on it. Maelstrom you just ahve to be able to grab it and then can bounce to the next one or even get shot off it no big deal. While you can play for sudden last minute grabs in EW, I find still durability is so much more important than mobility because you have to have enough force survive to the end game to make the last turn grab.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
So what are the differences between writing a list for Eternal War missions and Maelstrom missions(or any other format like the BAO tournaments)? Maelstrom favors high mobility, so does Eternal War favor castling up? Is there no difference?

Big difference. Maelstrom favors MSU. Hormagants are Maelstrom all-stars with great mobility, and objective secured. Dakkafexes are great because they are fairly cheap, and have a big threat radius to exert board control. Fliers are not as good because they don't have much board control, and can't score objectives without risking being killed. Gargoyles are MVP's. Able to score objectives, tarpit, screen MC's and exert board control.

You can't castle up in Maelstrom near as much which is why it is so fun. You've got to get out there and engage in all phases of the game. Because of that you've got to build lists where every unit can fill multiple roles. You can't go in with the strategy 'Rippers are my scores, Flyrants are my damage dealers, Malanthropes are my support". Hormagants and Gargoyles will score more than Dakkafexes or Malanthropes, but you've got to be willing to use those unit to score as well. Dakkafexes are better in assault than Hormagants, but when the situation arises, you've got to use all of your tools. One Malanthrope isn't enough shrouding, because they got to spread out the cover saves a bit, and may be called on to go into assault in the hope of a preferred enemy bubble.

A few units that perform better in Maelstrom than Eternal war.
Hormagants - Objective secured. Big foot print. Good Mobility.
Dakkafexes - Good threat range. Versatile unit with an answer to everything. Limited range and mobility not as big of a problem because of good board control.
Biovores - Sometimes you've got to snipe a unit off an objective. Biovores can do this.
Gargoyles - So Fast. So good in so many ways.
Malanthropes - A surprisingly good assaulter. The perfect support unit. Sturdy enough to control an objective alone.
Swarmlord - Still not better than a flyrant, but Maelstrom allows him to shine much more.
Tyrant Guard - Durable Assaulters. Throw one Crushing claw on them to threaten vehicles. Still not ideal, but better.

A few units that perform worse.
Rippers - Score you one point if you are lucky.
Hive Guard - Not enough shots, not good in other aspects of the game.
Mawloc -Bigger consequences if he doesn't come in early. Some pluses, some minuses.
Crones - Got to stay airborne to stay alive.
Dakkaflyrants - Still a dominant unit, but also a large points investment, so you've got to limit the number in a list. I recommend no more than 2 at 1850. If you have more than 2, you have to focus on tabling you opponent.
Dimachaeron - Msu is king. His assault potential is limited, he is a large investment, and can't contribute with shooting or really scoring (because he isn't assaulting if he is scoring)
Barbed Heirodule - Too expensive for a unit that can only score one objective. If you include him, you have to focus on tabling you opponent.
Tervigon - Too expensive, and doesn't contribute enough in shooting or assaulting.

tag8833 wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Shooting a boltgun hits units not models. What's your point regarding wound allocation?

Fair enough. The situations where this might arise are so very, very small for psychic scream

When you play it correctly, it happens regular enough against most units with average Ld and even bunched up units with good Ld. There's always that unit that rolls really high, and then just two models die, because 6" range. I'd love to have it potentially affect all models in units.

 N.I.B. wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Shooting a boltgun hits units not models. What's your point regarding wound allocation?

Fair enough. The situations where this might arise are so very, very small for psychic scream

When you play it correctly, it happens regular enough against most units with average Ld and even bunched up units with good Ld. There's always that unit that rolls really high, and then just two models die, because 6" range. I'd love to have it potentially affect all models in units.

Then you are very fortunate. I go several games at a time between rolling high enough to do a wound with Psychic scream. I hit 2 Riptides, 2 units of Broadsides, and a group of fire warriors the other day. Killed 1 fire warrior. I rolled psychic scream 3! times on 3 flyrants against grey knights. I did 3 wounds against a Dreadknight twice (he saved all but 1). Other than that, I killed a purifier or some other MEQ with it. Though much of that has to do with Grey Knights denying the Witch on 4+'s. Cast it 4 times against Mek Gunz (LD 5). The rolls (3, 4, and 5) So I killed 3 total Gretchin. He denied the 4th.

So, starting in January our local shop is going to be doing a promotional escalation league where-in people are to start with the contents of a battle force (or equivalent) and work their way up to a full 1500 points. The store will be offering a 20% discount for participation, so I expect we will see quite a few new people. The only stipulation is that the models used in this new league have to be ones that either are new or haven't been painted yet (mainly to both incentivize painting and to keep things fair for new players who will be going into it with significantly limited collections).

With the restrictions in mind, I'm thinking I might try building an army off of the Deathstorm box with a few odds and ends that are unpainted. So far, this is what I have come up:

Formation: Phodian Annihilation Swarm: 555 points
TROOPS: Children of Cryptus
TROOPS: Phodian Hive Warriors
HEAVY: Beast of Phodia

Combined Arms Deatchment: 445 points

HQ: 1x Tervigon with Electroshock Grubs and Cluster Spines

TROOPS: 20x Termagants
TROOPS: 20x Termagants

HEAVY: 1x Tyrannocyte

 Strat_N8 wrote:
So, starting in January our local shop is going to be doing a promotional escalation league where-in people are to start with the contents of a battle force (or equivalent) and work their way up to a full 1500 points. The store will be offering a 20% discount for participation, so I expect we will see quite a few new people. The only stipulation is that the models used in this new league have to be ones that either are new or haven't been painted yet (mainly to both incentivize painting and to keep things fair for new players who will be going into it with significantly limited collections).

With the restrictions in mind, I'm thinking I might try building an army off of the Deathstorm box with a few odds and ends that are unpainted. So far, this is what I have come up:

Formation: Phodian Annihilation Swarm: 555 points
TROOPS: Children of Cryptus
TROOPS: Phodian Hive Warriors
HEAVY: Beast of Phodia

Combined Arms Deatchment: 445 points

HQ: 1x Tervigon with Electroshock Grubs and Cluster Spines

TROOPS: 20x Termagants
TROOPS: 20x Termagants

HEAVY: 1x Tyrannocyte

Have you already bought the box? Are you willing to buy anything else, and if so what's your budget?

 Sinful Hero wrote:

Have you already bought the box? Are you willing to buy anything else, and if so what's your budget?

I have the deathstorm box (split with my little brother who is starting Blood Angels for the league), though most of the Tyranid half isn't put together yet. I'm not opposed to additional purchases, though with Christmas next week I'm not sure what my budget would be.

Pretty much everything listed is stuff that is either new (the Tyrannocyte) or has been sitting in my painting queue waiting for some attention. I also have an unassembled Carnifex and some Gargoyles from the Tyranid Swarm Box available too.

If you want, you might get a Hive Tyrant instead of the Tyrannocyte- Combine your termagants and move the Tervigon to a Troop slot. You'll at least be able to get a warlord trait that way, unless the Spawn of Cryptus is a character then that's a moot point.You can always get the Tyrannocyte later(and you'll be dropping in a scoring Tervigon then), but a flying Hive Tyrant and scoring Tervigon are going to be harder to deal with at lower point levels if you aren't going straight to 1500.

 Zande4 wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
JY2, are you going to LVO and if so are you planning to smash face with 5 Flyrants?
Any idea if there will be any live coverage this year of tables?

Thoughts on current top 5 Codex's?

Eldar
Tyranids - yeah baby.
Imperial Knights
Daemons
Tau

- That feels about right to me.

Can anyone smell the return of Tau gunline to counter flyer heavy Nids?

I believe Jy2 stated he would not be running Pentyrant at tournaments.

Top 5 is tough now.

Tyranids (Pentyrant)
Eldar (Wave Serpents, Seers Council)
Knights (Ad lance)
Space Marines (Gravcent Stars w/ Grey Knights or White Scars)
Daemons / Necrons / Tau (not sure on this one)

I think Tau would need to bring a considerable amount of Skyrays before they could "counter" Pentyrant.

One sec here... JY2 takes like 6 Necron flyers to an event when there are like...no flyers..and they are like...Da bomb..and like..own everything... but refuses to take 5 Flyrants..
Am I reading that right... lol

 Strat_N8 wrote:
So, starting in January our local shop is going to be doing a promotional escalation league where-in people are to start with the contents of a battle force (or equivalent) and work their way up to a full 1500 points. The store will be offering a 20% discount for participation, so I expect we will see quite a few new people. The only stipulation is that the models used in this new league have to be ones that either are new or haven't been painted yet (mainly to both incentivize painting and to keep things fair for new players who will be going into it with significantly limited collections).

With the restrictions in mind, I'm thinking I might try building an army off of the Deathstorm box with a few odds and ends that are unpainted. So far, this is what I have come up:

Formation: Phodian Annihilation Swarm: 555 points
TROOPS: Children of Cryptus
TROOPS: Phodian Hive Warriors
HEAVY: Beast of Phodia

Combined Arms Deatchment: 445 points

HQ: 1x Tervigon with Electroshock Grubs and Cluster Spines

TROOPS: 20x Termagants
TROOPS: 20x Termagants

HEAVY: 1x Tyrannocyte

I understand other people's reservations, but think you are on a reasonable track. A Hive Tyrant is a better HQ than a Tervigon, but if you want to build a tervigon, that is just fine. I suggest just a few tweaks to the wargear.

Tervigon (Crushing Claws, E.Grubs) is the way I run my Tervigons. I know this won't fit in your army as constructed, but I wouldn't build him fixed, as I expect you to want Crushing Claws later(assuming you escalation league allows it). So my advice is magnetize the Scything Talons and crushing Claws.

For you Termagants, Consider building them like this instead:
20 Termagants (10 Fleshboarers, 10 Devourers)
10 Termagants (10 Fleshboarers)

It is a bonus to their offensive ability (10 extra shots, 6" extra range), and also a unit you are more likely going to want long term. Situationally, you might consider dropping the Gants in the Tyrannocyte instead of the Tervigon. 10 Devourers makes them a threat to infantry, and any back armor 10 vehicles. It will also reduce your footprint and make for a bit shorter games.

If I were to change up what you are building, I would drop the Tervigon for deathleaper (Cheap, distract for your melee stuff) and a Malanthrope (A+ support unit).

 Sinful Hero wrote:
If you want, you might get a Hive Tyrant instead of the Tyrannocyte- Combine your termagants and move the Tervigon to a Troop slot. You'll at least be able to get a warlord trait that way, unless the Spawn of Cryptus is a character then that's a moot point.You can always get the Tyrannocyte later(and you'll be dropping in a scoring Tervigon then), but a flying Hive Tyrant and scoring Tervigon are going to be harder to deal with at lower point levels if you aren't going straight to 1500.

If you are running the Phobian formation you don't want the broodlord as warlord since the assigned trait becomes pointless as the whole formation has PE.

I've mentioned earlier about the Living Artillery Node (LAN) formation in regards to how competitive it is and now, I've got a little more time to touch up on the subject.

Just as a refresher, my position on LAN is this. It is a good formation and I will recommend it to any Tyranid player. However, it is NOT a top-tier competitive Tyranid build. It's got the tools to deal with a lot of army builds. However, it just does not have the flexibility of a flyrant-spam army build to take on some of the best armies out there.

When I am talking about top-tier, there are certain tournament army builds that this list has got to be able to handle:

Mechdar - how can it deal with massed AV13 skimmers with 4+/3+ cover saves and with T8 monstrous creatures?

The Seer Council - despite the nerf to this deathstar, it can still sweep most ground units off of the table.

Necron AV13-spam - how can it deal with massed heavy armor?

Triple Imperial Knight Adlance builds - how can it handle this type of army?

Flyer-spam - Flyrant-spam, Necron Airforce, Daemon FMC summoning armies.

White Scars bikers - bikers armies will take out the exocrine with ease. S4 blasts don't work very well against T5 units, and White Scars have 3+ jink against AP1-3 shooting.

Centstar - how can they deal with an Invisible deathstar that can teleport all over the table?

Drop Pod marines - sure, biovore and exocrine blasts work well against these armies....assuming you survive their alpha-strike.

These are just some of the armies that will give LAN builds problems, and they are all common and successful tournament armies (armies that normally do well in tournament play). Against many of these armies, basically, LAN builds need to rely on their most reliable unit - the flyrant. It is the flyrant that will do the most damage against these types of armies and that is because the flyrant has the mobility, versatility and durability to do so. The LAN does not. Rather, it needs to wait for the flyrants to perform so that it has more viable targets against these types of armies.

Thanks to the Leviathan detachment, now LAN has gotten even better....but that is only because it can now run 3 flyrants instead of 2. The Leviathan detachment will make any Tyranid formation better. That is because you are adding another highly versatile FMU (force-multiplier unit) to the army. See where this is going? The more flyrants you have, the better the army typically becomes. The LAN is just a support unit. And while support units are important, it is the stars that will take the army to the next level.

Earlier, I mention about the LAN being a static gunline. While it is not a purely static build, it might as well be in comparison to the mobility of a flyrant-spam build. Biovores just do not like to move out of BLOS terrain or ruins, and the warriors are needed to babysit them and to hold the home objectives (they also don't really want to move out of cover). So while in theory, you want to move the formation along with the rest of the army, in practice, usually only the exocrine does. The warriors will move to a degree just so that they cover the exocrine, but they are not normally an aggressive unit.

In any case, a ground-&-pound Tyranid army is almost like a dinosaur in the current meta. You have to have mobility to compete with top dogs, the best tournament armies out there. In an objectives-heavy tournament format, if you don't have mobility, you don't have flexibility. If you don't have flexibility, you can't deal with a wider range of army builds, from MSU to deathstars to flyer-spam to Daemon summoning to heavy armor. And if you can't compete against a wide range of armies, then you don't have a top-tier army.

 L0rdF1end wrote:

One sec here... JY2 takes like 6 Necron flyers to an event when there are like...no flyers..and they are like...Da bomb..and like..own everything... but refuses to take 5 Flyrants..
Am I reading that right... lol

Actually, the most Necron flyers I have ever taken to a tournament is 4. I am only running 3 Necron flyers in my current 1850 list. I don't believe in the Necron Airforce. What I run is a Necron ground army with some air support.

 Strat_N8 wrote:
So, starting in January our local shop is going to be doing a promotional escalation league where-in people are to start with the contents of a battle force (or equivalent) and work their way up to a full 1500 points. The store will be offering a 20% discount for participation, so I expect we will see quite a few new people. The only stipulation is that the models used in this new league have to be ones that either are new or haven't been painted yet (mainly to both incentivize painting and to keep things fair for new players who will be going into it with significantly limited collections).

With the restrictions in mind, I'm thinking I might try building an army off of the Deathstorm box with a few odds and ends that are unpainted. So far, this is what I have come up:

Formation: Phodian Annihilation Swarm: 555 points
TROOPS: Children of Cryptus
TROOPS: Phodian Hive Warriors
HEAVY: Beast of Phodia

Combined Arms Deatchment: 445 points

HQ: 1x Tervigon with Electroshock Grubs and Cluster Spines

TROOPS: 20x Termagants
TROOPS: 20x Termagants

HEAVY: 1x Tyrannocyte

Tag8833 put up some very good suggestions. I'd follow that if you want a tervigon HQ over a flyrant.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
So what are the differences between writing a list for Eternal War missions and Maelstrom missions(or any other format like the BAO tournaments)? Maelstrom favors high mobility, so does Eternal War favor castling up? Is there no difference?

No difference. You should build them the same way - as a strong TAC army. As long as your list is TACtically flexible, then it is all a matter of your TACtics as opposed to your "list".

 Wilson wrote:
played a coupe of 500 pts games today which where fun! The second game I played was against guard( 2 Vet squads with melta, Demolisher and command squad) . My first turn I started with just a Hive tyrant on the board with 2 Mucolids, a Tyrannocyte and a Carnifex in reserve. I went to cast warp lance, perilsed, rolled a 1, rolled double six on my leadership and tabled myself in my own turn 1.

It was awesome!

I do love 500 pts games though, they are great fun

It's rare but it does happen.

 N.I.B. wrote:
Regarding the podcast the Lictorshame dude was on, the interviewer and him were talking up Psychic Scream a lot. I just feel I should point out that it's a Nova power with a 6" range, following the rules for shooting. Meaning models outside range can't be affected. And seeing how you have to place the screamer at least 1" away from enemy units, you can rarely affect more than a few models. Less if they are large, more if they are on small bases and clumped up. It's best against Tyranids and Daemons (because SitW and expensive, pivotal models).

Very situational power.

I've been having very bad luck with my Psychic Scream. I am getting to the point where I think that casting Psychic Scream is just as useful as assaulting with your flyrants, something I no longer do.

 Zande4 wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
JY2, are you going to LVO and if so are you planning to smash face with 5 Flyrants?
Any idea if there will be any live coverage this year of tables?

Thoughts on current top 5 Codex's?

Eldar
Tyranids - yeah baby.
Imperial Knights
Daemons
Tau

- That feels about right to me.

Can anyone smell the return of Tau gunline to counter flyer heavy Nids?

I believe Jy2 stated he would not be running Pentyrant at tournaments.

Top 5 is tough now.

Tyranids (Pentyrant)
Eldar (Wave Serpents, Seers Council)
Knights (Ad lance)
Space Marines (Gravcent Stars w/ Grey Knights or White Scars)
Daemons / Necrons / Tau (not sure on this one)

I think Tau would need to bring a considerable amount of Skyrays before they could "counter" Pentyrant.

This is what I think is Top 5 (in no particular order).

Tyranids
Eldar
Space Marines
Necrons
Daemons

Tau didn't quite make the cut because they have some potentially really bad matchups against Necrons, Daemons and White Scars. And as tough as Adlance knights are, a lot of armies can deal with them actually.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
JY2, are you going to LVO and if so are you planning to smash face with 5 Flyrants?
Any idea if there will be any live coverage this year of tables?

Thoughts on current top 5 Codex's?

Eldar
Tyranids - yeah baby.
Imperial Knights
Daemons
Tau

- That feels about right to me.

Can anyone smell the return of Tau gunline to counter flyer heavy Nids?

No, I am not planning on running Pentyrants at the LVO. I am actually planning on running Necrons, but will reserve final judgement for when the new Necron codex comes out in January.

Depending on how popular Tyranids become, yes, you may see a resurgence in Tau. Not necessarily gunline Tau, but shooty, mobile Tau. Gunlines will go the way of the Dodo birds in competitive play, though the Tau Firebase Cadre will remain popular.

 jy2 wrote:
Just as a refresher, my position on LAN is this. It is a good formation and I will recommend it to any Tyranid player. However, it is NOT a top-tier competitive Tyranid build. It's got the tools to deal with a lot of army builds. However, it just does not have the flexibility of a flyrant-spam army build to take on some of the best armies out there.

There's that term flexibility again. For the cost of 1.5 Flyrants you get 3 units 2 of which do things that flyrants don't do as well. So unless by flexibility you mean the same thing in larger quantities....

 jy2 wrote:
When I am talking about top-tier, there are certain tournament army builds that this list has got to be able to handle:

Spoiler:

Mechdar - how can it deal with massed AV13 skimmers with 4+/3+ cover saves and with T8 monstrous creatures?

The Seer Council - despite the nerf to this deathstar, it can still sweep most ground units off of the table.

Necron AV13-spam - how can it deal with massed heavy armor?

Triple Imperial Knight Adlance builds - how can it handle this type of army?

Flyer-spam - Flyrant-spam, Necron Airforce, Daemon FMC summoning armies.

White Scars bikers - bikers armies will take out the exocrine with ease. S4 blasts don't work very well against T5 units, and White Scars have 3+ jink against AP1-3 shooting.

Centstar - how can they deal with an Invisible deathstar that can teleport all over the table?

Drop Pod marines - sure, biovore and exocrine blasts work well against these armies....assuming you survive their alpha-strike.

Some of those lists are rough matchups for tyranids. I'm not sure what you are comparing living artillery against. I guess 5 Flyrants? It clearly is better against drop pod marines. Seer council depends on their psychic power success, and what else in in the list with them. Centstar fears Living artillery now that invis has taken a nerf. I've beat Ad Lance with it twice. I've beat necron airforce (4-6 fliers) with it many times. It has decent answers to demon summoning. It certainly isn't auto lose as much as you imply especially since you seem to have forgotten that living artillery is only 390 points. A flyrant and 1/2. Or 2 Crones and a Malanthrope. It is a relatively small investment with a big bang for your buck in the right situations.

 jy2 wrote:
These are just some of the armies that will give LAN builds problems, and they are all common and successful tournament armies (armies that normally do well in tournament play). Against many of these armies, basically, LAN builds need to rely on their most reliable unit - the flyrant. It is the flyrant that will do the most damage against these types of armies and that is because the flyrant has the mobility, versatility and durability to do so. The LAN does not. Rather, it needs to wait for the flyrants to perform so that it has more viable targets against these types of armies.

Thanks to the Leviathan detachment, now LAN has gotten even better....but that is only because it can now run 3 flyrants instead of 2. The Leviathan detachment will make any Tyranid formation better. That is because you are adding another highly versatile FMU (force-multiplier unit) to the army. See where this is going? The more flyrants you have, the better the army typically becomes. The LAN is just a support unit. And while support units are important, it is the stars that will take the army to the next level.

So your point of view is that any list that isn't 5 flyrants is a loser list? I guess. 5 Flyrants definitely works well against most things. But if we are limiting ourselves to 3 Flyrants, its LAN, Crones, or Barbed Heirodule. All are viable options.

 jy2 wrote:
Earlier, I mention about the LAN being a static gunline. While it is not a purely static build, it might as well be in comparison to the mobility of a flyrant-spam build. Biovores just do not like to move out of BLOS terrain or ruins, and the warriors are needed to babysit them and to hold the home objectives (they also don't really want to move out of cover). So while in theory, you want to move the formation along with the rest of the army, in practice, usually only the exocrine does. The warriors will move to a degree just so that they cover the exocrine, but they are not normally an aggressive unit.

LAN has just enough board presence to control your backfield in most games. It isn't an assault group of units, but if someone drops a farsight Bomb, or legion of the Dammned, or Necron Warriors or any other late game backfield drops, LAN is there to contest them in assault, and deny them the backfield. That is mainly where the warriors shine. They function in the same way as your Dimacharon did in your visions of a Barbed Heirodule list. Not saying that 3 Warriors with a BS are better than a Dimacharon, but they are an assault threat that scales down in proportion to scaling down a Barbed Heirodule to an Exocrine.

 jy2 wrote:
In any case, a ground-&-pound Tyranid army is almost like a dinosaur in the current meta. You have to have mobility to compete with top dogs, the best tournament armies out there. In an objectives-heavy tournament format, if you don't have mobility, you don't have flexibility. If you don't have flexibility, you can't deal with a wider range of army builds, from MSU to deathstars to flyer-spam to Daemon summoning to heavy armor. And if you can't compete against a wide range of armies, then you don't have a top-tier army.

So your argument is 5 Flyrants or die? Or are you arguing for a flying circus that involves crones? I just don't know what you are comparing LAN to. It can hold your backfield, and score any objectives there. It can contribute forward all the while. It does so for 390 points. Your strategy of surrendering the entire board to your opponent at the list building stage is certainly a way to go. 5 Flyrants is a good list, but that is not a reason that LAN stinks, nor is it the only way to play at a highly competitive level.

As I said higher in the post. If you want to limit yourself to no more than 3 Flyrants, you need something to fill out your list. For a good list that means LAN, Barbed Heirodule, Crones, or possibly Lictors, though I've found that to be... dependent on terrain in BAO missions. My opinion is that the Barbed Heirodule is the best, but it wins big or loses big. LAN is definitely the most fun. So I play my LAN list far more than I play my Crones or Barbed Heirodule when playing against competitive opponents.