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All the talk of competitiveness, 5 flyrants, tournament lists and such is making me so very happy that my local scene is casual. I can't imagine being limited to 3-4 units in the codex. I find it most enjoyable playing Warriors and walkrants against Land Raiders, Vespid, CC dreadnoughts and the like...

I'm near certain jy2 specifically mentions he thinks LAN is good and would recommend it to any Tyranid player.

 jy2 wrote:
Just as a refresher, my position on LAN is this. It is a good formation and I will recommend it to any Tyranid player.

Ah yep there it is...
So how again did you interpret this?

tag8833 wrote:
So your point of view is that any list that isn't 5 flyrants is a loser list?

SBG wrote:
All the talk of competitiveness, 5 flyrants, tournament lists and such is making me so very happy that my local scene is casual. I can't imagine being limited to 3-4 units in the codex. I find it most enjoyable playing Warriors and walkrants against Land Raiders, Vespid, CC dreadnoughts and the like...

I find it so very enjoyable playing competitive list! It makes so happy that my local scene like to try and be the best they can be while we all still have fun.

tag8833 wrote:
There's that term flexibility again. For the cost of 1.5 Flyrants you get 3 units 2 of which do things that flyrants don't do as well. So unless by flexibility you mean the same thing in larger quantities....

When I say flexibility, I mean that the build is flexible enough to adjust to almost any enemy build, mission type or playstyle. It's mobility is excellent in virtually any scenario and its offense is potentially more devastating than that of the LAN and against a wider range of enemy units. The type of flexibility I am talking about is tactical flexibility. Flyrant-spam is an aggressive army, yet, it is also a very reactive army. The better you are able to react to what your opponent does, the more flexible your army is as it can change its tactics without lost of efficiency at the drop of a dime (in most cases).

tag8833 wrote:
Some of those lists are rough matchups for tyranids. I'm not sure what you are comparing living artillery against. I guess 5 Flyrants? It clearly is better against drop pod marines. Seer council depends on their psychic power success, and what else in in the list with them. Centstar fears Living artillery now that invis has taken a nerf. I've beat Ad Lance with it twice. I've beat necron airforce (4-6 fliers) with it many times. It has decent answers to demon summoning. It certainly isn't auto lose as much as you imply especially since you seem to have forgotten that living artillery is only 390 points. A flyrant and 1/2. Or 2 Crones and a Malanthrope. It is a relatively small investment with a big bang for your buck in the right situations.

Since when have I ever implied that LAN is auto-lose against those armies? You are missing my point completely.

I am listing army builds which I think that a LAN Tyranid build will have problems against. I'm not saying that they can't beat these armies. Rather, they are just not as efficient in dealing with these armies as they are in dealing with other armies (i.e. infantry-based armies not meched up). They can still beat them, but they will struggle in many cases. A flyrant-spam list is more capable of handling these builds because they can adapt better to deal with them. With a LAN-based army, you may have to wait a turn or 2 before your formation have any viable targets to deal with. That is a turn or 2 where you are only playing with a 1110-pt army instead of a 1500-pt army. It just isn't as efficient as a flyrant-spam army, where you have 1500-pts of your army contributing to the offense from Turn 1. That is not to say that the LAN is inefficient or anything. It's actually really good, especially against the right army. However, there is no formation that can operate at 100% efficiency from the get-go, especially when under adverse conditions. The only Tyranid build that can do so is flyrant-spam, where all your flyrants will be doing work against the enemy from the very beginning. On Turn 1, it will already be working at 100% capacity.

tag8833 wrote:
So your point of view is that any list that isn't 5 flyrants is a loser list? I guess. 5 Flyrants definitely works well against most things. But if we are limiting ourselves to 3 Flyrants, its LAN, Crones, or Barbed Heirodule. All are viable options.

Please show me where I have said or even implied that? You don't have to run a 5 flyrant list to be able to do well in a tournament. However, most Tyranid builds before Leviathan came out just aren't top-tier material. Keep in mind that I am not talking about just a good Tyranid army. I am talking about a Tyranid army that can win Grand Tournaments (GT's) and not just RTT's (smaller tournaments). That is what I mean by top-tier, an army that has not only a realistic chance, but a good chance to win a larger tournament. It's like comparing Scottie Pippen (LAN) to Michael Jordan (Flyrant-spam). Yes, Scottie Pippen is really good, but he is not a player who can take his team to the championships. Michael Jordan, on the other hand, is a player who is good enough to do so.

tag8833 wrote:
LAN has just enough board presence to control your backfield in most games. It isn't an assault group of units, but if someone drops a farsight Bomb, or legion of the Dammned, or Necron Warriors or any other late game backfield drops, LAN is there to contest them in assault, and deny them the backfield. That is mainly where the warriors shine. They function in the same way as your Dimacharon did in your visions of a Barbed Heirodule list. Not saying that 3 Warriors with a BS are better than a Dimacharon, but they are an assault threat that scales down in proportion to scaling down a Barbed Heirodule to an Exocrine.

Yes, it does have a better backfield board presence than a flyrant-spam army. Actually, most Tyranid ground armies do. However, what it doesn't have is a good enough board presence to control objectives not in its backfield (in particular, objectives in your opponent's backfield). That is the trade off there. LAN builds and most Tyranid ground builds have good backfield presence at the expense of forwards objective-taking capability. Flyrant-spam, on the other hand, control each objective equally well. It can take forwards objectives as well as it can take its backfield objectives. It gives up the strong backfield presence of a more traditional Tyranid army but in return, you've got the tactical flexibility to go wherever you are needed objectives-wise.

tag8833 wrote:
So your argument is 5 Flyrants or die? Or are you arguing for a flying circus that involves crones? I just don't know what you are comparing LAN to. It can hold your backfield, and score any objectives there. It can contribute forward all the while. It does so for 390 points. Your strategy of surrendering the entire board to your opponent at the list building stage is certainly a way to go. 5 Flyrants is a good list, but that is not a reason that LAN stinks, nor is it the only way to play at a highly competitive level.

As I said higher in the post. If you want to limit yourself to no more than 3 Flyrants, you need something to fill out your list. For a good list that means LAN, Barbed Heirodule, Crones, or possibly Lictors, though I've found that to be... dependent on terrain in BAO missions. My opinion is that the Barbed Heirodule is the best, but it wins big or loses big. LAN is definitely the most fun. So I play my LAN list far more than I play my Crones or Barbed Heirodule when playing against competitive opponents.

Again, show me where I have ever implied or argued that the only build to run is 5-flyrants? Where have I ever said that LAN stinks?

Don't bother, you won't find it because I've never said anything like that. This is what I am saying in a nutshell.

LAN is a good build but it is not a top-tier Tyranid build. A flyrant-spam Tyranid army is because it is more tactically flexible and also better equipped to handle a wider range of armies than LAN or most of the other Tyranid builds as well. Does that mean that you should only consider running 4-5 flyrants in your list? No. Other Tyranid builds can do well also. However, if you want to talk about consistency in performance against a wide range of army builds, IMO, flyrant-spam will be the most consistent as well as efficient build against most of the army builds out there.

But if you want to handicap yourself with a personal limit (i.e. 3 flyrants), then yeah, LAN is really good. I just don't see it consistently beating out the other top armies anytime soon.

I don't have time to put a big thing in, just pointing out that all those match ups you listed Jy2 are well off the mark. Is Ad lance really some ez match up for Flyrants? Pretty sure its a bad match up for both. Drop pods being a bad match up for ground nids? Sheesh, I can barely think of a harder counter in the GAME for drop pod marines than Nidzilla. That one is much worse for Flyrants. I'm not really sure what your LAN list is but would be interesting to see what the list behind your theory is, but as someone whose practiced with BOTH builds I can solidly say the match ups you listed are not significantly easier for Flyrants at all. What is your LAN list that you are using for these match ups?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:

LAN is a good build but it is not a top-tier Tyranid build. A flyrant-spam Tyranid army is because it is more tactically flexible and also better equipped to handle a wider range of armies than LAN or most of the other Tyranid builds as well.

No, it's just taking 3 more Flyrants and expecting 5 of them to do the job every game. Plenty of games they will, except for the games where you run into a list with plenty of Skyfire or Flyrant counters, then you are far worse off than LAN in this match up

"Flyrant spam is top tier because its better"

I'm not actually seeing any supporting logic behind this. Your handpicked list of match ups where LAN falls behind Flyrants is either A. factually incorrect like in the case of drop pods, or B. match ups where Flyrants are not significantly better off at all. What is the hard counter to LAN? It can in theory take any match up, not necessarily with auto-win odds but often with positive. Don't think that because you got that victory against questionably handled Skyfire Tau, that Flyrants do not have a clear cut counter. It might not be enough to autowin, but its well and truly enough to make it an unlikely victory for Flyrants. anda very likely victor for LAN in this match up, but reverse this and I can't think of any competitive army I've practiced where LAN has a negative win ratio yet Flyrants will have a positive one. LAN is far more thoroughly the TAC choice, until you can show a list where LAN is likely to LOSE but Flyrant is likely to WIN, this whole talk of Flyrants being the only top-tier build for Nids because of flexibility versatility better equipped blah blah, is just words and not actual supporting evidence.

IMO Flyrant lists are best against knights, Kinghts most damage comes from Melee, they move 12" have stomps etc...

Having 5 flyrants in the air will never be in melee and can move 24" compare to 12" Flyrants can also get behind and hit Rear armor, yes they get a 4+ but with 5 flyrants with TL dakka and Ele grubs you should kill 1 per turn after turn 1, if you focus down 2 or 3 and then worry about objectives you should win.

A LAD list (Not saying LAD is bad just an example) is far worst at dealing with knights. With the shooting, turn 2 charge and D3 stomps, also the fact they are walkers so your melee is front armor, its a very hard match up.

How are you both misreading what he's saying this much? I honestly don't even know what's happening...

He said 5 Flyrants is the best build Tyranids have. Not once has he said all other builds are invalid and uncompetitive, in fact he says the opposite a page back stating Tyranids currently have the MOST competitive builds of all armies, while also stating that LAN is good...

You wan't a match up where 5 Flyrants outperforms LAN Shuppet? Here's one for you; 5 Flyrants vs LAN

 Zande4 wrote:
How are you both misreading what he's saying this much? I honestly don't even know what's happening...

He said 5 Flyrants is the best build Tyranids have. Not once has he said all other builds are invalid and uncompetitive, in fact he says the opposite a page back stating Tyranids currently have the MOST competitive builds of all armies, while also stating that LAN is good...

You wan't a match up where 5 Flyrants outperforms LAN Shuppet? Here's one for you; 5 Flyrants vs LAN

this.

 Zande4 wrote:
How are you both misreading what he's saying this much? I honestly don't even know what's happening...

He said 5 Flyrants is the best build Tyranids have. Not once has he said all other builds are invalid and uncompetitive, in fact he says the opposite a page back stating Tyranids currently have the MOST competitive builds of all armies, while also stating that LAN is good...

Stop using this thin fallback for every counterpoint made to his argument lol, I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm not responding to him saying anything is "invalid or uncompetitive" which I'm well aware he is not, I'm responding to him saying that LAN is not top tier, by providing my argument as to why it is. All this finger pointing about us misreading and accusing jy2 of saying Nidzilla is trash tier, where are you getting it from?

Regarding your debate of 'Best Build'. This really is a Meta dependant question.

Currently yes, 4-5 Flyrants is the best Nids have to offer.
But then you have to think about how the meta will then change to counter that. Skyfire clearly will be popular if not mandatory for armies to deal with that many Flyrants.

The meta change is a strange one though because not only do you have to deal with this new threat of 5 Flyrants, you also have to deal with the current lists out there (Knights and Serpent Spam mostly).

What do other armies have to offer that can deal with the current armies and put down multiple Flyrants?

I can't think of many armies that can achieve this personally.
The two that come to mind are:

Tau (Broadside and Riptides with Skyfire upgrades)
Necrons (Mass flyer spam). - Guess we need to see what the new dex looks like.

What else could shut down 4-5 Flyrants?

 SHUPPET wrote:
I don't have time to put a big thing in, just pointing out that all those match ups you listed Jy2 are well off the mark. Is Ad lance really some ez match up for Flyrants? Pretty sure its a bad match up for both. Drop pods being a bad match up for ground nids? Sheesh, I can barely think of a harder counter in the GAME for drop pod marines than Nidzilla. That one is much worse for Flyrants. I'm not really sure what your LAN list is but would be interesting to see what the list behind your theory is, but as someone whose practiced with BOTH builds I can solidly say the match ups you listed are not significantly easier for Flyrants at all. What is your LAN list that you are using for these match ups?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:

LAN is a good build but it is not a top-tier Tyranid build. A flyrant-spam Tyranid army is because it is more tactically flexible and also better equipped to handle a wider range of armies than LAN or most of the other Tyranid builds as well.

No, it's just taking 3 more Flyrants and expecting 5 of them to do the job every game. Plenty of games they will, except for the games where you run into a list with plenty of Skyfire or Flyrant counters, then you are far worse off than LAN in this match up

"Flyrant spam is top tier because its better"

I'm not actually seeing any supporting logic behind this. Your handpicked list of match ups where LAN falls behind Flyrants is either A. factually incorrect like in the case of drop pods, or B. match ups where Flyrants are not significantly better off at all. What is the hard counter to LAN? It can in theory take any match up, not necessarily with auto-win odds but often with positive. Don't think that because you got that victory against questionably handled Skyfire Tau, that Flyrants do not have a clear cut counter. It might not be enough to autowin, but its well and truly enough to make it an unlikely victory for Flyrants. anda very likely victor for LAN in this match up, but reverse this and I can't think of any competitive army I've practiced where LAN has a negative win ratio yet Flyrants will have a positive one. LAN is far more thoroughly the TAC choice, until you can show a list where LAN is likely to LOSE but Flyrant is likely to WIN, this whole talk of Flyrants being the only top-tier build for Nids because of flexibility versatility better equipped blah blah, is just words and not actual supporting evidence.

Following on from this, jy2, do you think you could get a game in against your Tau friend with a LAN list (or lead me to a batrep which you've already done)? IIRC, there was a ton of Skyfire in the Tau list yet Pentyrant still won 6-4. It would be interesting to see how LAN fares against the same list (maybe some modifications, since the Tau list was slightly tailored).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Regarding your debate of 'Best Build'. This really is a Meta dependant question.

Currently yes, 4-5 Flyrants is the best Nids have to offer.
But then you have to think about how the meta will then change to counter that. Skyfire clearly will be popular if not mandatory for armies to deal with that many Flyrants.

The meta change is a strange one though because not only do you have to deal with this new threat of 5 Flyrants, you also have to deal with the current lists out there (Knights and Serpent Spam mostly).

What do other armies have to offer that can deal with the current armies and put down multiple Flyrants?

I can't think of many armies that can achieve this personally.
The two that come to mind are:

Tau (Broadside and Riptides with Skyfire upgrades)
Necrons (Mass flyer spam). - Guess we need to see what the new dex looks like.

What else could shut down 4-5 Flyrants?

I would also argue that AV13 Wall Crons would work, since Flyrants would need to get behind a Necron vehicle before it could damage it (or use EGrubs).

I'd also hazard a guess that Venom spam could work or Raider spam, simply due to the amount of Poisoned shots they can dish out (even if firing at BS1, in the case of Raider Spam, they are TL). But that match up would be dependent on who went first, since a Flyrant would have no problems killing a Venom a turn. Maybe not a Raider (3+ Jink might save them) but I wouldn't take my chances on a Raider surviving.

GreenTide might work, simply due to the amount of bodies on the field (although I believe inControl's Hierodule list won against it, hooray for Stomps )

Other than that...not a lot comes to my mind.

 jy2 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
So your point of view is that any list that isn't 5 flyrants is a loser list? I guess. 5 Flyrants definitely works well against most things. But if we are limiting ourselves to 3 Flyrants, its LAN, Crones, or Barbed Heirodule. All are viable options.

Please show me where I have said or even implied that? You don't have to run a 5 flyrant list to be able to do well in a tournament. However, most Tyranid builds before Leviathan came out just aren't top-tier material. Keep in mind that I am not talking about just a good Tyranid army. I am talking about a Tyranid army that can win Grand Tournaments (GT's) and not just RTT's (smaller tournaments). That is what I mean by top-tier, an army that has not only a realistic chance, but a good chance to win a larger tournament. It's like comparing Scottie Pippen (LAN) to Michael Jordan (Flyrant-spam). Yes, Scottie Pippen is really good, but he is not a player who can take his team to the championships. Michael Jordan, on the other hand, is a player who is good enough to do so.

Here you go:

 jy2 wrote:
Just as a refresher, my position on LAN is this. It is a good formation and I will recommend it to any Tyranid player. However, it is NOT a top-tier competitive Tyranid build. It's got the tools to deal with a lot of army builds. However, it just does not have the flexibility of a flyrant-spam army build to take on some of the best armies out there

You said LAN is not a top-tier competitive build, and your list of top tier competitive builds is 1 build long. I don't think that is quite fair. Lictorshame won a GT. Several Barbed Heirodule lists have come real close, and won lots of RTTs. Flyrants + Crones are winning GT's in Europe.

Flyrant spam has fewer bad matchups in the current meta. That is true. But I think to use that to conclude that it is the only top-tier competitive build is going a bit overboard.

Flyrant spam does indeed have fewer bad matchups in the current meta which is what makes it the most competitive build for Nids currently.

Other builds can come close as you have mentioned but they aren't going to win a GT. Most of these other builds still contain and heavily lean on the durability and versatility of the Flyrant.

It is all matchup dependant so it is potentially possible for other builds to do well but probability is very much in favour of 4-5 Flyrants. Nothing else comes close in the current Meta including Lictorshame and other builds.
Sean is an amazing player and we cannot expect the list in another persons hands to do quite as well. Sean also had some easier matchups which helped.

Flyrant spam on the other hand is relatively easy to play.

tag8833 wrote:

Spoiler:

 jy2 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
So your point of view is that any list that isn't 5 flyrants is a loser list? I guess. 5 Flyrants definitely works well against most things. But if we are limiting ourselves to 3 Flyrants, its LAN, Crones, or Barbed Heirodule. All are viable options.

Please show me where I have said or even implied that? You don't have to run a 5 flyrant list to be able to do well in a tournament. However, most Tyranid builds before Leviathan came out just aren't top-tier material. Keep in mind that I am not talking about just a good Tyranid army. I am talking about a Tyranid army that can win Grand Tournaments (GT's) and not just RTT's (smaller tournaments). That is what I mean by top-tier, an army that has not only a realistic chance, but a good chance to win a larger tournament. It's like comparing Scottie Pippen (LAN) to Michael Jordan (Flyrant-spam). Yes, Scottie Pippen is really good, but he is not a player who can take his team to the championships. Michael Jordan, on the other hand, is a player who is good enough to do so.

Here you go:

 jy2 wrote:
Just as a refresher, my position on LAN is this. It is a good formation and I will recommend it to any Tyranid player. However, it is NOT a top-tier competitive Tyranid build. It's got the tools to deal with a lot of army builds. However, it just does not have the flexibility of a flyrant-spam army build to take on some of the best armies out there

You said LAN is not a top-tier competitive build, and your list of top tier competitive builds is 1 build long. I don't think that is quite fair. Lictorshame won a GT. Several Barbed Heirodule lists have come real close, and won lots of RTTs. Flyrants + Crones are winning GT's in Europe.

Flyrant spam has fewer bad matchups in the current meta. That is true. But I think to use that to conclude that it is the only top-tier competitive build is going a bit overboard.

Again, please show me where I have said that LAN is a "loser list" or that it "stinks"?

Saying that something is not the best is NOT the same thing as saying it sucks.

Just because your brother is not your best friend, does that mean that he is a loser and and that he stinks? (Note - in case you choose to read too much into it, I am not claiming that anyone's brother is actually a loser.)

Do you see the logical fallacy there?

What I am stating is my opinion of what a top-tier Tyranid army is. It is only an opinion and you have a right to disagree with it. Just don't twist my words around, making it into something that I DID NOT SAY.

You want a simple test? Sure. Take a mechdar army (perhaps the example list you used in my battle reports) and play 2 games against it - one with a LAN build and one with a flyrant-spam build (like my Pentyrant build). Then take those 2 same Tyranid armies and then run them against a horde army like the ork or AM build that you mentioned in my battle reports as well. Then tell me what you think about the 2 Tyranid builds.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Flyrant spam does indeed have fewer bad matchups in the current meta which is what makes it the most competitive build for Nids currently.

Other builds can come close as you have mentioned but they aren't going to win a GT. Most of these other builds still contain and heavily lean on the durability and versatility of the Flyrant.

It is all matchup dependant so it is potentially possible for other builds to do well but probability is very much in favour of 4-5 Flyrants. Nothing else comes close in the current Meta including Lictorshame and other builds.
Sean is an amazing player and we cannot expect the list in another persons hands to do quite as well. Sean also had some easier matchups which helped.

Flyrant spam on the other hand is relatively easy to play.

Exactly.

Flyrant-spam is our most competitive build right now, just like Skyblight was back in 6th edition. That's all I am really saying.

Has anyone tried pairing an Endless Swarm with Trygon tunnels? I've been tossing the idea around for a few days now and wonder it anyone has tried and/or had success with it.

 Frozocrone wrote:

Following on from this, jy2, do you think you could get a game in against your Tau friend with a LAN list (or lead me to a batrep which you've already done)? IIRC, there was a ton of Skyfire in the Tau list yet Pentyrant still won 6-4. It would be interesting to see how LAN fares against the same list (maybe some modifications, since the Tau list was slightly tailored).

I can already tell you how it would turn it without even playing it. I would most likely lose. Playing a semi-static army against his is almost an auto-lose. My biovores have no real good targets other than the marker drones (it isn't terribly efficient against massed 2+ units, especially ones with multi-wounds) and my exocrine will get picked apart before it can even do anything. Against my LAN, he wouldn't have to tailor his Tau list and thus, his TAC Tau list is even more deadly against a "normal" Tyranid list. IMO, MTO or flyer-spam is the best way to play against his list. You need to overload his list or you will get picked apart if you have to march towards it.

 Frozocrone wrote:

I would also argue that AV13 Wall Crons would work, since Flyrants would need to get behind a Necron vehicle before it could damage it (or use EGrubs).

I'd also hazard a guess that Venom spam could work or Raider spam, simply due to the amount of Poisoned shots they can dish out (even if firing at BS1, in the case of Raider Spam, they are TL). But that match up would be dependent on who went first, since a Flyrant would have no problems killing a Venom a turn. Maybe not a Raider (3+ Jink might save them) but I wouldn't take my chances on a Raider surviving.

GreenTide might work, simply due to the amount of bodies on the field (although I believe inControl's Hierodule list won against it, hooray for Stomps )

Other than that...not a lot comes to my mind.

Necron AV13, yes, I believe it can give flyrant-spam problems.

Venom/raider-spam DE? Nope. Using my Pentyrant list as an example, they've got to get through 3 Void Shields and then they are hitting units with 2+ cover. After that, they will need 6's to hit those units. The shoe is on the other foot now. Until DE gets more efficient at killing flyers (DE razorwing-spam, anyone?), now Tyranids are the potential bad matchup for them instead of vice versa.

The greentide cannot deal with flyrant-spam, at least not without resorting to tailoring against them with massed tracktor kannons. And even still, they won't have an easy fight against flyrant-spam.

 c0j1r0 wrote:
Has anyone tried pairing an Endless Swarm with Trygon tunnels? I've been tossing the idea around for a few days now and wonder it anyone has tried and/or had success with it.

It is a good build. As a matter of fact, I think that it is just as viable as most of the other Tyranid formations here. Initially, people seemed to be stuck on the idea that it isn't very good due to the units not being ObSec. However, as ObSec units become less and less important with all the new formations coming out, I think it is time to revisit this build. To me, this type of army, the Endless Swarm, when combined with the Leviathan detachment, can be scary good. It can and will surprise a lot of people, much the same as Lictor-spam has surprised us all. Personally, I think we have a hidden gem here.

 jy2 wrote:

What I am stating is my opinion of what a top-tier Tyranid army is. It is only an opinion and you have a right to disagree with it.

That is my main thrust. I reject the opinion that the only way to compete in tournaments is to run 5 flyrants. It is such a violation of the social contract of 40k, and the goal of fun, meaningful games that I'm not even sure it should be in the conversation of Tyranid tournament builds.

I also reject it because celebrating it as the only viable Tyranid build before it has even been run in a single tourney is premature.

Likewise I reject it because it isn't a long term plan. It highlights the lie that a 2 source restriction is a meaningful path to fun games that matter. Tournaments will adapt, and for the next couple months 5 Flyrants might be a dominant tourney list, but then tourneys will fracture into those that favor an unlimited detachment, possibly unbound approach, and those with a more meaningful restriction on lists that preclude extreme spam like this, and in 6 months (or less) when we look back, 5 Flyrants will be an aberration while things like a Barbed Heirodule, Crones, Lictors, and LAN will still be a viable strategy.

tag8833 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

What I am stating is my opinion of what a top-tier Tyranid army is. It is only an opinion and you have a right to disagree with it.

That is my main thrust. I reject the opinion that the only way to compete in tournaments is to run 5 flyrants. It is such a violation of the social contract of 40k, and the goal of fun, meaningful games that I'm not even sure it should be in the conversation of Tyranid tournament builds.

I also reject it because celebrating it as the only viable Tyranid build before it has even been run in a single tourney is premature.

Likewise I reject it because it isn't a long term plan. It highlights the lie that a 2 source restriction is a meaningful path to fun games that matter. Tournaments will adapt, and for the next couple months 5 Flyrants might be a dominant tourney list, but then tourneys will fracture into those that favor an unlimited detachment, possibly unbound approach, and those with a more meaningful restriction on lists that preclude extreme spam like this, and in 6 months (or less) when we look back, 5 Flyrants will be an aberration while things like a Barbed Heirodule, Crones, Lictors, and LAN will still be a viable strategy.

Its pretty easy to have the conclusion that 5 Flyrants will smash face and will have a good chance of coming top in a GT.
Again, it's match up dependant and you still can't just walk it, you'll need some degree of skill and supporting elements in the list.

2 source restriction is dead or will be. I expect to see it more restrictive than opening the doors to everything including unbound as that just creates even more of a mess.
I would expect to see 1 CAD + Ally or Formation. This is pretty much the norm for the UK at the moment. This means you could take 4 Flyrants max from Shield of Baal CAD + Skyblight.

It's not the only way to compete with Tyranids for sure but it is by far the easiest most smash face build you could take.
There's not really a goal of fun if you want to win a GT, you take the most cheese possible or something so out there no one has a clue how to deal with it before its too late.
No ones going to hold back if you haven't got what they consider to be a strong list. Instead they will take full advantage of the weaknesses in your list.

 jy2 wrote:

 c0j1r0 wrote:
Has anyone tried pairing an Endless Swarm with Trygon tunnels? I've been tossing the idea around for a few days now and wonder it anyone has tried and/or had success with it.

It is a good build. As a matter of fact, I think that it is just as viable as most of the other Tyranid formations here. Initially, people seemed to be stuck on the idea that it isn't very good due to the units not being ObSec. However, as ObSec units become less and less important with all the new formations coming out, I think it is time to revisit this build. To me, this type of army, the Endless Swarm, when combined with the Leviathan detachment, can be scary good. It can and will surprise a lot of people, much the same as Lictor-spam has surprised us all. Personally, I think we have a hidden gem here.

I'm planning on using it in a tourney next month. My list right now is:
1500 points is:
CAD:
1 Flyrant w/ 2x Devourers and Egrubs
5 DS Rippers
1 Crone
2 Trygon Primes
Endless Swarm:
1 Warriors unit no upgrades
3 Hormagaunt no upgrades
2 Devilgaunts

I have 20 points left for whatever.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Spoiler:

I don't have time to put a big thing in, just pointing out that all those match ups you listed Jy2 are well off the mark. Is Ad lance really some ez match up for Flyrants? Pretty sure its a bad match up for both. Drop pods being a bad match up for ground nids? Sheesh, I can barely think of a harder counter in the GAME for drop pod marines than Nidzilla. That one is much worse for Flyrants. I'm not really sure what your LAN list is but would be interesting to see what the list behind your theory is, but as someone whose practiced with BOTH builds I can solidly say the match ups you listed are not significantly easier for Flyrants at all. What is your LAN list that you are using for these match ups?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:

LAN is a good build but it is not a top-tier Tyranid build. A flyrant-spam Tyranid army is because it is more tactically flexible and also better equipped to handle a wider range of armies than LAN or most of the other Tyranid builds as well.

No, it's just taking 3 more Flyrants and expecting 5 of them to do the job every game. Plenty of games they will, except for the games where you run into a list with plenty of Skyfire or Flyrant counters, then you are far worse off than LAN in this match up

"Flyrant spam is top tier because its better"

I'm not actually seeing any supporting logic behind this. Your handpicked list of match ups where LAN falls behind Flyrants is either A. factually incorrect like in the case of drop pods, or B. match ups where Flyrants are not significantly better off at all. What is the hard counter to LAN? It can in theory take any match up, not necessarily with auto-win odds but often with positive. Don't think that because you got that victory against questionably handled Skyfire Tau, that Flyrants do not have a clear cut counter. It might not be enough to autowin, but its well and truly enough to make it an unlikely victory for Flyrants. anda very likely victor for LAN in this match up, but reverse this and I can't think of any competitive army I've practiced where LAN has a negative win ratio yet Flyrants will have a positive one. LAN is far more thoroughly the TAC choice, until you can show a list where LAN is likely to LOSE but Flyrant is likely to WIN, this whole talk of Flyrants being the only top-tier build for Nids because of flexibility versatility better equipped blah blah, is just words and not actual supporting evidence.

I've got to ask you Shuppet....have you played against those types of armies against players who know how to run them? Have you played the new flyrant-spam builds yet? If not, then perhaps you can enlighten us with your views after you've had the chance to give it a try against some of the lists I have mentioned.

LAN can beat Imperial Knights, but they have a much tougher time doing so. Against such an army, it will be the flyrants doing most of the work while the LAN looks for targets to deal with. With flyrant-spam, they have an easier time because there are more "weapons" to deal with a knight army. Just FYI, but here is an example of an Adlance army that I have run before:

Adlance - 3 Imperial Knights
Farseer - jetbike, Mantle of the Laughing God, Spirit Stones (my Daemon summoner)
2x3 Jetbikes (in reserves, hugs the board edges and spreads out against barrage/blast heavy armies)
2 Wraithknights

I don't think you're going to find the LAN doing all that much against this type of army.

As for drop pod marines, I'll tell you exactly what happens. I drop a lot of drop pods into your deployment zone, combat squadding all of my marines. Yeah, nidzilla will eventually take them all apart, but guess what? It's Turn 4 and most of your units are still in your deployment zone whereas I've got ObSec marines on all of the objectives, shooting down any MSU units like deepstriking rippers that try to get near. You lose not because you can't deal with massed MEQ's, but because your army is grossly out of position. That is how marines will beat you, unless you run a highly mobile Tyranid army.

As for taking 2-3 extra flyrants over a LAN list, you're damn right it makes all the difference in the world. You talk about bad matchups. A flyrant-spam list has a lot less bad matchups than most of the other Tyranid builds, including the LAN. But me telling you otherwise isn't going to matter at all. You've got to try that army yourself to understand what I am talking about.

tag8833 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

What I am stating is my opinion of what a top-tier Tyranid army is. It is only an opinion and you have a right to disagree with it.

That is my main thrust. I reject the opinion that the only way to compete in tournaments is to run 5 flyrants. It is such a violation of the social contract of 40k, and the goal of fun, meaningful games that I'm not even sure it should be in the conversation of Tyranid tournament builds.

I also reject it because celebrating it as the only viable Tyranid build before it has even been run in a single tourney is premature.

Likewise I reject it because it isn't a long term plan. It highlights the lie that a 2 source restriction is a meaningful path to fun games that matter. Tournaments will adapt, and for the next couple months 5 Flyrants might be a dominant tourney list, but then tourneys will fracture into those that favor an unlimited detachment, possibly unbound approach, and those with a more meaningful restriction on lists that preclude extreme spam like this, and in 6 months (or less) when we look back, 5 Flyrants will be an aberration while things like a Barbed Heirodule, Crones, Lictors, and LAN will still be a viable strategy.

That's fine. No one ever said a top-tier army is a "fun" army to play against. Mechdar isn't fun to play against. Neither is the seer council or the centurionstar or Necron AV13-spam or Adlance knights, but you still see people run them in competitive play. Personally, I also don't like the fact that we have a mechdar-esque build with our Tyranids and that Tyranids may soon be seen as "that army", but that doesn't change the fact that flyrant-spam is most likely our strongest tournament army currently (unfortunately). Believe me, I am with you. I'd be happy to see tournament make changes to curb flyrant-spam. They may or they may not, I really don't know, but until changes are made, flyrant-spam is currently our most powerful, if not pleasant, build.

BTW, just so that we are clear, you don't have to run 5-flyrants to compete in a tournament, but if you really, really want to win, then flyrant-spam will give you the best chances at doing so. It doesn't mean that other Tyranid builds cannot compete. They can. It's just that their chances of winning the whole thing are a lot less.

No disrespect Shuppet but I agree completely with JY2.

Do you have some competitive players in your locale that you can test some of your thoughts against?

There's no point jumping to any conclusion without the experience/wisdom to ponder such questions. It is just fact (I'm not going to give you a detailed argument right now) that most other Tyranid builds will struggle against most of the other races top tier builds in the current meta.

Jy2, what is your opinion of the Harridan vs a Barbed Hierodule in the tyranid Lord of war slot? To me it seems way better, even with the higher price tag.

Also, is it on the BAO banned list, because I never see you or iNcoNTroL using one. If it is banned, why?

 c0j1r0 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 c0j1r0 wrote:
Has anyone tried pairing an Endless Swarm with Trygon tunnels? I've been tossing the idea around for a few days now and wonder it anyone has tried and/or had success with it.

It is a good build. As a matter of fact, I think that it is just as viable as most of the other Tyranid formations here. Initially, people seemed to be stuck on the idea that it isn't very good due to the units not being ObSec. However, as ObSec units become less and less important with all the new formations coming out, I think it is time to revisit this build. To me, this type of army, the Endless Swarm, when combined with the Leviathan detachment, can be scary good. It can and will surprise a lot of people, much the same as Lictor-spam has surprised us all. Personally, I think we have a hidden gem here.

I'm planning on using it in a tourney next month. My list right now is:
1500 points is:
CAD:
1 Flyrant w/ 2x Devourers and Egrubs
5 DS Rippers
1 Crone
2 Trygon Primes
Endless Swarm:
1 Warriors unit no upgrades
3 Hormagaunt no upgrades
2 Devilgaunts

I have 20 points left for whatever.

Your list is illegal. You need 2 troops in your primary CAD. Also I'd double check the formation again. It might have been changed to 3 hormagants and 3 termagants, though I don't have my "book" with me currently.

There is 1 main problem with your list. You need to be able to control your reserves. In such a list, the Comms Relay is almost mandatory. The last thing you want is for your trygons to come in on Turn 4.

My other recommendation - get a malanthrope or, if Forgeworld is not allowed, a venomthrope. It'll make your horde much more survivable.

I don't know if you can acquire and paint these units before your tournament (perhaps you can borrow from someone?), but here is what I recommend:


1 Flyrant w/ 2x Devourers and Egrubs
3 DS Rippers
3 DS Rippers
2 Trygon Primes
Venomthrope (if you can afford to, I'd go with a malanthrope instead)
Bastion w/Comms Relay
Endless Swarm:
1 Warriors unit no upgrades
3 Hormagaunt no upgrades
2 Devilgaunts

You might want to double-check if you need 2 or 3 units termagants. If it is 3, you can drop some of the devilgants (or run a mixed unit, something like 10+10) and perhaps downgrade one of your Trygon Primes to a normal trygon.

Good luck! Let us know how you do.

I don't mean to keep the debate going, mostly because its semantics, and we essentially all agree (by degrees) that these two lists are pretty damn awesome. :-p

I do just want to say that LAN has been ok for me in the past against Knights, if only because an Exocrine and Flyrant will synergize. They choose their shield facing, and between a maneuvered Flyrant and the Exocrine, something will be taking wounds off of a Knight. The duo likely won't tag-team a Knight from full wounds to dead in a single round, but they will have done a good bit of work.

Oh, sorry, what I meant by 5 DS Rippers was 5x 3 DS Rippers
So, but I can see the use of a Comms relay, I've just never used one and don't think about it. I guess I'd need (for personal preference) to whip up a Tyranid bastion. I may have an outdated Invasion data slate, mine says 2 units of Termigants.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Jy2, what is your opinion of the Harridan vs a Barbed Hierodule in the tyranid Lord of war slot? To me it seems way better, even with the higher price tag.

Also, is it on the BAO banned list, because I never see you or iNcoNTroL using one. If it is banned, why?

That's a really good question. Both are good. To me, it really depends on at what points-level you play at. I wouldn't recommend the Harridan at 1850 or below. I think you need at least 2K to be able to run the Harridan effectively. The problem is the support units. The more expensive the gargant, the less points you will have for your support units, and that is not a good thing.

I will give you examples and I will use the Leviathan formation as the foundation of my army. I am going to assume that you will want to get 3 flyrants in a competitive Tyranid army.

So 3 flyrants + Barbed Hierodule = 1255 (around there as I am going off memory with regards to cost).

3 flyrants + Harridan = ~1470?

At 1850 (common tournament format here in the US), with a BH build, you have about 600-pts for your support units.

At 1850, with a Harridan build, you only have 380-pts for your support units.

With my Pentyrant list, I have 650-pts for my support units and I still feel that is not enough support units. With only 380-pts? Forget it. The Harridan army becomes a really unbalanced flyer army with not enough ground units to support it in objectives games.

Thus, while the Harridan is the better Gargant, the Hierodule-based army will be the stronger army at lower points because it is the more balanced TAC army. Personally, I think that when you get to the 2250+ level, then the Harridan army can potentially become the more effective army.

As for being banned, I actually haven't checked. If it is banned, it is probably because it is a flying Gargantuan and they were probably concerned that it could prove to be frustrating to a lot of players. Personally, I don't think it needs to be banned (that is, if it is actually banned). I'd recommend you to email to Reece himself, or PM him here on dakka, if you're interested in bringing the Harridan to one of his tournaments.

 c0j1r0 wrote:

Oh, sorry, what I meant by 5 DS Rippers was 5x 3 DS Rippers
So, but I can see the use of a Comms relay, I've just never used one and don't think about it. I guess I'd need (for personal preference) to whip up a Tyranid bastion. I may have an outdated Invasion data slate, mine says 2 units of Termigants.

In that case, it becomes easier to make those changes to your list. You really don't need 5 units of rippers, not when you have respawning troops in your armies. You could swap out some of those rippers for other units. In your list, it's actually ok just to run 2x3 DS rippers.

In any case, Reserves manipulation is key to your army working properly. You need to be able to control your reserves.

What would the advantage of running a bastion over an ADL be?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I don't mean to keep the debate going, mostly because its semantics, and we essentially all agree (by degrees) that these two lists are pretty damn awesome. :-p

I do just want to say that LAN has been ok for me in the past against Knights, if only because an Exocrine and Flyrant will synergize. They choose their shield facing, and between a maneuvered Flyrant and the Exocrine, something will be taking wounds off of a Knight. The duo likely won't tag-team a Knight from full wounds to dead in a single round, but they will have done a good bit of work.

LAN can deal with knights. They just don't do it as efficiently as flyrant-spam. With LAN, you have exocrine most likely to the knights front AV13 and flyrant to the side. With flyrant-spam, you can put 1 flyrant to the left, right and rear of the knight. That's 3 facings and 3 egrubs that the knight has to contend with. Triple-spam can potentially take down 1 knight a turn! Short of the barbed hierodule + multiple flyrants, flyrant-spam is our most efficient way to deal with a Knight army.

 c0j1r0 wrote:
What would the advantage of running a bastion over an ADL be?

Your venomthrope won't die against Tau or mechdar. You've got a place for your flyrant to hide if terrain is sparse. Your bastion can actually hold your home objective so that the rest of the army can advance aggressively. It's got heavy bolters that your venomthrope can fire.

Does its shroud cloud extend out of the bastion?

Hey all, sort new to nids and still fairly fresh to the game in general..looking for some list ideas based off of what i have..i play in a 100% relaxed none agressive area with close friends..if you guy/gals could give me pointers on building an alright list, i would appreciate it...heres what i got..

tyrant(none winged)
carnifex
x2 zoanthropes
venomthrope
40 termigaunts
16 hormagaunts
8 pants thiefs(gene stealers)+ broodlord
10 gargoyles
x3 tyranid warriors
x5 ripper swarms

its a slow process to gather the models that are decent or popular, because we lack a reliable GW store in our area

thank you

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:
How are you both misreading what he's saying this much? I honestly don't even know what's happening...

He said 5 Flyrants is the best build Tyranids have. Not once has he said all other builds are invalid and uncompetitive, in fact he says the opposite a page back stating Tyranids currently have the MOST competitive builds of all armies, while also stating that LAN is good...

Stop using this thin fallback for every counterpoint made to his argument lol, I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm not responding to him saying anything is "invalid or uncompetitive" which I'm well aware he is not, I'm responding to him saying that LAN is not top tier, by providing my argument as to why it is. All this finger pointing about us misreading and accusing jy2 of saying Nidzilla is trash tier, where are you getting it from?

Here's one for you

tag8833 wrote:
So your point of view is that any list that isn't 5 flyrants is a loser list?

And what? Every counterpoint? Thin fallback? So far you've called out jy2's logic behind the Pentyrant list saying "it's better because it is" by responding with "it's not because it isn't"
You can link me to your LAN Batreps if you'd like.

Top tier = the very best. LAN was not shutting down Waveserpent spam as far as I'm aware of. You can't just lump something at the top because you like it and feel it deserves it.
I'd also like to point out that LAN fails against av13 Necrons too and Skyrays will ruin it just as much as they will ruin Pentyrant. I'f I'm not mistaken LAN still takes 2-3 Flyrants.

tag8833 wrote:
You said LAN is not a top-tier competitive build, and your list of top tier competitive builds is 1 build long. I don't think that is quite fair. Lictorshame won a GT. Several Barbed Heirodule lists have come real close, and won lots of RTTs. Flyrants + Crones are winning GT's in Europe.

Flyrant spam has fewer bad matchups in the current meta. That is true. But I think to use that to conclude that it is the only top-tier competitive build is going a bit overboard.

The Lictorshame list that you've taken every chance to remind us was in a tournament tailored to it and therefore should not be taken as seriously? Or was that only when it suited your argument?

At this point I feel you both like to be contrary for the sake of it, while not always a bad thing as it breeds discussion it's gotten to the point where you're making things up and deliberately interpreting things wrong ie. It's not top tier therefore it's the worst.