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Played an RTT yesterday. Running a weird format and Comp called Da Boyz. It came down to me running my Tyranids vs a Necron Decurion close combat list in the finals. I was tabled for the 2nd time in 7th edition, and the 1st time ever at a tournament. He rolled hot, and I rolled cold (Failed 4 of 5 grounding tests), but it was demoralizing, because it felt like I could play that game 1,000 times, and never win it.

My list:


His list:


The Mission:
Hammer and Anvil
Primary (20 Points): 6 Objectives fixed placement (2 at midfield, 2 at the edge of each player's deployment zone). 1 Point for each objective controlled at the end of your player turn.
Secondary (10 Points): Mark for Death 3 units of your opponent. He marked my gants and gargoyles. I marked his spider, Tomb Blades, and Scarabs.
Tertiary (3 Points): Last Blood, Linebreaker, Warlord.

He got 1st turn, so I counter deployed strongly to one side away from the wraiths, and decided to ignore them until I'd neutralized the Lychguard, Praetorians, and warriors. I swear I made his Lychguard take 100+ saves, but they just wouldn't die. There was one turn where the biovores did 13 wounds, and the Exocrine did 7, The flyrants did 9-10, my Warriors, and Tfex chipped in another 4-5, and he only lost 1 Lychguard. 2 Praetorians went 5 rounds of close combat with 2 warriors and a TFex before the Lychguard came in and bailed them out. I ended up killing 18 of his 20 warriors, all of his Scarabs, 6 of his 10 Immortals, 4 of his 10 Lychguard, 9 of his 10 Praetorians, and 1 tomb Blade, but he had so much left at the end. Scoring on the primary looked like this.
Turn 1. 4-4
Turn 2. 8-8
Turn 3. 11-11
Turn 4. 17-11
Turn 5. 23-11 (Tabling)
Turn 1 I failed a 4" charge with my Gargoyles into his Wraiths. I felt like I would have been able to tarpit them for at least a turn, which means they don't make it to my Exocrine and Biovores until turn 4, and maybe I make a better showing, but I still lose.

I think new crons are a serious problem for us Tyranids in any mission that requires board presence. In some ways, my list was about as good as you could hope for against them. I don't think my LVO list would have done any better (Maybe avoided a tabling, but would have lost the mission worse).

pinecone77 wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

 krootman. wrote:

To be honest you are going to have a hell of a time vs eldar , and dark eldar with this list. You don't have enough ways to take advantage of cover, and the skyblight really holds you back. I know the restrictions placed on you are pretty silly, but you would almost be better off going with cad plus the sky tyrant formation with a void shield and coms (have you seen how huge those things are)

What are the missions being played at this event?

I disagree. Skyblight is good against Eldar IMO. 45 gargoyles are going to make the WK's stay away. Hive Crones can fire just 1 haywire missile just to keep the serpents jinking (that would help against shooting at the gargoyles) and flyrants can play more aggressively.

Against Dark Eldar, the matchups have reversed roles a long time ago already. DE just have major problems against massed FMC's unless they are running massed flyers of their own and even still, they will have problems against FMC's with 2+ cover.

I actually think that Skyblight+Leviathan would have done better against your mechdar than my Pentyrant list.

I was more talking eldar then dark eldar, flyrants. Shred venom spam pretty easily. I have tested vs sky tyrant formation,and you don't have to much of an issue whittling it down to the point where 3 wks can smash into it to clean up. Now of course there are a lot of X factors, there but again the lack of objsec really hurts. I also wouldn't jink vs one haywire missile most of the time, but that is also situational.

I feel eldar, especially eldar with wks, can be a every problematic matchup for bugs.

I think you guys might be talking past one another, it sounds like you are talking Sky Tyrant, and he is talking Sky Blight. Sky Blight has three Broods of Objective secured Gargoyles. (That re-spawn )

That may very well be true, theres so many formations in this game its hard to keep track of hahaha

Yeah new Crons are rough. They have a lot of good builds and I'm not even sure you ran into one of the best ones. Not saying it was bad - obviously it was quite good - but Necrons can be absolutely brutal when it comes to ground control. Basically you need to play missions that value ground control less, or shorten the game with null deployment in games where end-game ground presence is important. The durability of the Crons is a big issue for Flyrants but also for most Nids. Even when you ignore their armor save they still get 5+ FNP (or 4+ if you forego obsec but I'm not sure that's the best plan. Not just because of losing obsec but because you are required to take so many units that lack killing power and lose list building flexibility). I'm sure we'll see a lot of Crons in tournaments to come. They and Daemons I think are two of the best armies that we have some trouble dealing with. Volume of fire is nice, but 3+ 4+ FNP means that out of 9 wounds (typical Flyrant output) you lose 1.5 guys. Bad bad news unless the game lasts....forever approximately

4+ rerolling 1's in many cases. I went into the game thinking that the 3+ armor save Necrons were essentially like 2 Space marines. I had played this opponent in prep, and he had run warrior spam at me. I had lots of AP4, but all of those 3+ saves on T5 models were a giant problem. A Tfex and 2 Warriors will easily kill 6-8 space marines in 5 rounds of close combat. I failed to kill even a single Praetorian until the 5th round. Tyrants can down 4 or so space marines per shooting phase. Not so Against Crons. At no point in the game were both tyrants able to kill more than one model between both of them.

This is where having decent obsec units actually counts - necron decurions are incredibly resilient, but their damage output isn't that high. I think this was a conscious move on GW's part to try to balance minimum troop armies.

zerosignal wrote:
This is where having decent obsec units actually counts - necron decurions are incredibly resilient, but their damage output isn't that high. I think this was a conscious move on GW's part to try to balance minimum troop armies.

That is how I kept it even until Turn 4. My Gants and rippers were scoring fools. The thing about OS scoring, though is it can be assaulted, and Lychguard, Wraiths, or Praetorians will kill most anything that they assault.

I'm worried if necrons remove the viability of large swaths of missions. For instance, try winning the Relic against big blocks of scoring, unkillable infantry. Its like end of game scoring vs Eldar Jetbikes. It is going to create a very big challenge for mission construction.

Don't play eternal war vs Necrons.

tag8833 wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
This is where having decent obsec units actually counts - necron decurions are incredibly resilient, but their damage output isn't that high. I think this was a conscious move on GW's part to try to balance minimum troop armies.

That is how I kept it even until Turn 4. My Gants and rippers were scoring fools. The thing about OS scoring, though is it can be assaulted, and Lychguard, Wraiths, or Praetorians will kill most anything that they assault.

I'm worried if necrons remove the viability of large swaths of missions. For instance, try winning the Relic against big blocks of scoring, unkillable infantry. Its like end of game scoring vs Eldar Jetbikes. It is going to create a very big challenge for mission construction.

So this. I've been saying it since the first game I had against Newcrons. They're super durable in a CAD and stupid Durable in a Decurion. It really doesn't matter if they're not super killy if you're playing Eternal War missions as a primary in a Tournament format. They'll outlast just about anything. Their durability also makes it hard to steal First Blood from a well built Cron army which we all know is highly valuable at most competitive events.

Tyranids don't seem to have very many options that deal with bricks of Warriors well, much less the hard hitters like Wraiths, Praets, or Lychguard. Who knows maybe Mawloc spam will be the new black for Nids once lean and mean Newcron armies starting taking to the tables at tournaments.

Hive Crone/Tyrannofex to see more use in lists? S6 AP4 Ignore Cover would restrict Warriors to a 4+ FNP tops.

Can't see much to stop Lychguard/Wraiths/Praetorians. Maybe more Gargoyles to tarpit are in order.

Ok so I may be losing my marbles. I don't play Venomthropes (because reasons) but I could have SWORN that their shrouded rule affected the whole unit as long as one model was in range, like the VSG. My digital codex says quite the opposite. Am I crazy or is there a discrepancy here? Now o need to go double-check my Malanthrope in IA. I mean, I only used it for Flyrants so no blood no foul, but I'm really questioning a lot here. What's real? What isn't? How can I tell?

 luke1705 wrote:
Ok so I may be losing my marbles. I don't play Venomthropes (because reasons) but I could have SWORN that their shrouded rule affected the whole unit as long as one model was in range, like the VSG. My digital codex says quite the opposite. Am I crazy or is there a discrepancy here? Now o need to go double-check my Malanthrope in IA. I mean, I only used it for Flyrants so no blood no foul, but I'm really questioning a lot here. What's real? What isn't? How can I tell?

It only gives Shrouded to models in the bubble.
Now read what the Shrouded rule does.

Shrouded rule in BRB covers that

One model with shrouded gives the bonus to all the unit.

Ok thanks guys. I forgot to cross-reference the third section of the rules to find out what the one does. I should know better by now. And I have some caffeine in me so I'm more rational and less hungry.

Honestly, though, what I'd like to talk about is the list that Nick Nanavati has been playing. That scares the crap out of me even more than Necron Decurion. Sean can probably shed some light on how to beat this, and I almost wound up tying it myself with my 4 flyrant variant of Sean's list, but it's bonkers:

Fateweaver
Herald of Tzeentch - Exalted Reward, Lesser Reward, Disc, Lvl 3
Herald of Tzeentch - Disc, Lvl 3
Herald of Nurgle - Locus of Fecundity (Feel No Pain for unit), Greater Reward, Lvl 2
Herald of Nurgle - Greater Reward, Lvl 2

11x Horrors
10x Horrors

8x Screamers
8x Screamers
8x Plague Drones with Champion - Venom Sting. Champion has a greater reward

Inquisitor - 3x Servo Skulls

Can any of you guys comment about how good or not good the Zoanthrope brood is when it's fully equiped with the Neurothrope upgrade? Since it's release i thought it would be a powerhouse but i haven't heard a peep about it beyond initial speculations. Thanks guys

 luke1705 wrote:
Ok thanks guys. I forgot to cross-reference the third section of the rules to find out what the one does. I should know better by now. And I have some caffeine in me so I'm more rational and less hungry.

Honestly, though, what I'd like to talk about is the list that Nick Nanavati has been playing. That scares the crap out of me even more than Necron Decurion. Sean can probably shed some light on how to beat this, and I almost wound up tying it myself with my 4 flyrant variant of Sean's list, but it's bonkers:

Fateweaver
Herald of Tzeentch - Exalted Reward, Lesser Reward, Disc, Lvl 3
Herald of Tzeentch - Disc, Lvl 3
Herald of Nurgle - Locus of Fecundity (Feel No Pain for unit), Greater Reward, Lvl 2
Herald of Nurgle - Greater Reward, Lvl 2

11x Horrors
10x Horrors

8x Screamers
8x Screamers
8x Plague Drones with Champion - Venom Sting. Champion has a greater reward

Inquisitor - 3x Servo Skulls

I'm was in love with that list as soon as I saw the battle report his buddy wrote up that featured it. What do Daemons need now that Deathstars "aren't as good any more"? MOAR DEATHSTARS!!!

I have a quick question for people that have used the Fighter Ace upgrade.

Is it worth it?
I have 40 points left in my list and I can take a biovore or this upgrade. Trying to decide.

I am playing ITC mission in the coming tournament if that helps or maters.

Thanks for the help.

shadowfinder wrote:
I have a quick question for people that have used the Fighter Ace upgrade.

Is it worth it?
I have 40 points left in my list and I can take a biovore or this upgrade. Trying to decide.

I am playing ITC mission in the coming tournament if that helps or maters.

Thanks for the help.

If you are considering a single biovore vs the upgrade.. take the upgrade. If you have 2 biovores and are wondering if the full 3 is better take the full 3. The upgrade is 1 in 3 to be over powered and the 3/4 is very good. It comes out to 66% chance you get something amazing and 33% chance it is a waste of points. I used it in several tourneys and found it to be overall very good.. that said it has that random factor for 35 points which is just about dead on in terms of worth but close to being too expensive.

iNcontroL wrote:

shadowfinder wrote:
I have a quick question for people that have used the Fighter Ace upgrade.

Is it worth it?
I have 40 points left in my list and I can take a biovore or this upgrade. Trying to decide.

I am playing ITC mission in the coming tournament if that helps or maters.

Thanks for the help.

If you are considering a single biovore vs the upgrade.. take the upgrade. If you have 2 biovores and are wondering if the full 3 is better take the full 3. The upgrade is 1 in 3 to be over powered and the 3/4 is very good. It comes out to 66% chance you get something amazing and 33% chance it is a waste of points. I used it in several tourneys and found it to be overall very good.. that said it has that random factor for 35 points which is just about dead on in terms of worth but close to being too expensive.

Thanks for the thought on that. I have one biovore and was looking at adding one more for 2 total. or the upgrade. They randomness is a issue and at the same time it is not. I have some randomness in my list as it is and this just adds to it, just maybe a little too much for me. But I will try it out to see...

 luke1705 wrote:
Ok thanks guys. I forgot to cross-reference the third section of the rules to find out what the one does. I should know better by now. And I have some caffeine in me so I'm more rational and less hungry.

Honestly, though, what I'd like to talk about is the list that Nick Nanavati has been playing. That scares the crap out of me even more than Necron Decurion. Sean can probably shed some light on how to beat this, and I almost wound up tying it myself with my 4 flyrant variant of Sean's list, but it's bonkers:

Fateweaver
Herald of Tzeentch - Exalted Reward, Lesser Reward, Disc, Lvl 3
Herald of Tzeentch - Disc, Lvl 3
Herald of Nurgle - Locus of Fecundity (Feel No Pain for unit), Greater Reward, Lvl 2
Herald of Nurgle - Greater Reward, Lvl 2

11x Horrors
10x Horrors

8x Screamers
8x Screamers
8x Plague Drones with Champion - Venom Sting. Champion has a greater reward

Inquisitor - 3x Servo Skulls

This list should scare the living gak out of you, I play nick about once a week, every other week.....and this list walks all over everything I through at it. I mean some of our games are close, and this list requires a good pilot, but honestly it does very very well vs bugs.

Can someone post a link to a battle report?

I get the inevitable scaryness of disc-mounted heralds of Tzeench, screamers and fateweaver. But the Nurgle heralds confuse me; they can't join anything but the drones, and they're massively slowing them down.

How does this force work?


on my side, I'm finally considering poking some of the leviathan stuff.

My previous list is pretty standard: 5 tervigons, 3 big broods of termagants and that's it.

The Leviathan force chart strikes me as better - because I can take three tervigons as HQ, I need one less 30-strong brood, hence I can cut it down to 20-ish and fit in a pair of venomthropes.

I lose objective secured - which is a shame on the tervigons (not really for the gaunts) - but a synapse reroll for any orphaned spawned broods is probably quite nice, and shrouded across a lot of the army is damn good.

 luke1705 wrote:
Ok thanks guys. I forgot to cross-reference the third section of the rules to find out what the one does. I should know better by now. And I have some caffeine in me so I'm more rational and less hungry.

Honestly, though, what I'd like to talk about is the list that Nick Nanavati has been playing. That scares the crap out of me even more than Necron Decurion. Sean can probably shed some light on how to beat this, and I almost wound up tying it myself with my 4 flyrant variant of Sean's list, but it's bonkers:

Fateweaver
Herald of Tzeentch - Exalted Reward, Lesser Reward, Disc, Lvl 3
Herald of Tzeentch - Disc, Lvl 3
Herald of Nurgle - Locus of Fecundity (Feel No Pain for unit), Greater Reward, Lvl 2
Herald of Nurgle - Greater Reward, Lvl 2

11x Horrors
10x Horrors

8x Screamers
8x Screamers
8x Plague Drones with Champion - Venom Sting. Champion has a greater reward

Inquisitor - 3x Servo Skulls

This will definitely be a tough matchup for our bugs, but this is probably how I would approach the game.

1. Spread out the objectives. Do not centralize them. The problem is that the Plaguestar has a wide footprint and is not easily taken out (unless you are running dimachaeron(s)). The last thing you would want to do is to centralize the objectives to make it easy for the plaguestar to contest multiple objectives. By spreading out the objectives, you can try to take out 1 flank at a time. Neutralize and then move on.

2. Kill off the screamers and Tzeentch Heralds. They are the most mobile units in the army. You need to contain the mobility of this list. However, if the screamers are too hard to kill (i.e. Grimoire'd), then move on to the next unit. Kill off the faster units that are easier to kill.

3. Leave the deathstar alone, at least until there are no other "easier" targets. Let them have their 1 objective. You need to kill off the other units so that you can claim the other 2-6 objectives. One thing to note is that the Heralds will split off on T5 to try to claim multiple objectives. On T5 (or maybe even on T4), if you must, land your flyrant to be the sacrificial scapegoat for their assault. Them killing the flyrant but claiming 1 objective is better for you than for them to split up and claiming/contest multiple objectives.

4. This goes without saying, but try to focus-fire with your flyrants onto 1 unit at a time. Wipe them out before moving on to the next one. At the minimum, wipe out the psykers in the unit before moving on if at all possible.

5. You want to go 2nd, especially in objectives-based missions. Do not get greedy with trying to alpha-strike his army for an attempt at First Blood in formats like the LVO (other tournament formats may vary).

6. Try to keep his psykers (at least the ones that you are going after and not the ones you are ignoring) within Shadows range if conveniently possible. It will make a difference when he Perils.

7. Oh, and btw, do not place objectives anywhere near ruins.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dedlam wrote:
Can any of you guys comment about how good or not good the Zoanthrope brood is when it's fully equiped with the Neurothrope upgrade? Since it's release i thought it would be a powerhouse but i haven't heard a peep about it beyond initial speculations. Thanks guys

This is why you don't see them so often:

1. It is rather pricey. The minimum cost is 175-pts for just 3 models and that doesn't factor in the 75-pts for the tyrannocyte that you almost always need to get for them. Thus, you are looking at 250-pts minimum to run this unit effectively.

2. It is slow. Adding a tyrannocyte is almost mandatory.

3. Psychic powers are unreliable at best. And while the unit can "regenerate" warp charges, here you are looking at 175-pts for 2 warp charges, compared to a 50-pt zoanthrope that also contributes 2 WC's. And after generating the power, you still have to roll to hit.

4. Spirit Leech is situational. It is basically useless against a meched-up army.

5. The unit is basically a one-and-done unit. They come in, get 1 shot off and then can easily be tied up by almost any unit (or shot off the table).

In short, I don't think this unit is consistent enough in production for competitive play. Sure, they may have games where they will shine, but more often than not - just like the dimachaeron - they won't really make their points back in terms of production.

Hey I got a question for you all. Does anyone have a list of all products that contain the current tyranid rules?

Here is what I can think of:

Codex: Tyranids
White Dwarf #40 (Toxicrene and Maleceptor)
White Dwarf #41 (Mucolid Spore Cluster, Tyrannocyte, Sporocyst)
White Dwarf #42 (Neurothrope)
Leviathan Rising - The Collection
Shield of Baal: Leviathan
Imperial Armor IV: The Anphelion Project (2nd Edition) (EDIT #1)

Is this everything?

Imperial Armor IV: The Anphelion Project (2nd Edition) alongside that list.

 Lord Scythican wrote:
Hey I got a question for you all. Does anyone have a list of all products that contain the current tyranid rules?

Here is what I can think of:

Codex: Tyranids
White Dwarf #40 (Toxicrene and Maleceptor)
White Dwarf #41 (Mucolid Spore Cluster, Tyrannocyte, Sporocyst)
White Dwarf #42 (Neurothrope)
Leviathan Rising - The Collection
Shield of Baal: Leviathan

Is this everything?

Here is some information regarding the formations:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/606496.page

Thanks to the both of you!

 jy2 wrote:

 Lord Scythican wrote:
Hey I got a question for you all. Does anyone have a list of all products that contain the current tyranid rules?

Here is what I can think of:

Codex: Tyranids
White Dwarf #40 (Toxicrene and Maleceptor)
White Dwarf #41 (Mucolid Spore Cluster, Tyrannocyte, Sporocyst)
White Dwarf #42 (Neurothrope)
Leviathan Rising - The Collection
Shield of Baal: Leviathan

Is this everything?

Here is some information regarding the formations:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/606496.page

Thanx! Very helpful to have it all in one place!

 Lord Scythican wrote:
Hey I got a question for you all. Does anyone have a list of all products that contain the current tyranid rules?

Here is what I can think of:

Codex: Tyranids
White Dwarf #40 (Toxicrene and Maleceptor)
White Dwarf #41 (Mucolid Spore Cluster, Tyrannocyte, Sporocyst)
White Dwarf #42 (Neurothrope)
Leviathan Rising - The Collection
Shield of Baal: Leviathan

Is this everything?

Here is a list of everything Tyranid for rules. This web site is about Tyranids. I use it a lot.

http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/48492/where-find-tyranid-rules

 Lord Scythican wrote:
Hey I got a question for you all. Does anyone have a list of all products that contain the current tyranid rules?

Here is what I can think of:

Codex: Tyranids
White Dwarf #40 (Toxicrene and Maleceptor)
White Dwarf #41 (Mucolid Spore Cluster, Tyrannocyte, Sporocyst)
White Dwarf #42 (Neurothrope)
Leviathan Rising - The Collection
Shield of Baal: Leviathan
Imperial Armor IV: The Anphelion Project (2nd Edition) (EDIT #1)

Is this everything?

If you can swing it get a tablet and put everything on it.

I have every piece of rules currently legal (including fw) easily accessible on my ipad mini (first gen, got it cheap). You can't beat the convenience. I put it in a draw string back and carry it around every gt i go to and I never have to ask anyone what their stuff does.

 krootman. wrote:
If you can swing it get a tablet and put everything on it.

I have every piece of rules currently legal (including fw) easily accessible on my ipad mini (first gen, got it cheap). You can't beat the convenience. I put it in a draw string back and carry it around every gt i go to and I never have to ask anyone what their stuff does.

That's something I've been interested in doing. Do you have the physical copies of each book as well or did you get the e-copies only?