Tyranids and exterminatis

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**Niiai**

One problem as well would be that you do not know the tyranids have started on a new campain before you find the emty dinner plates. You would have to plot their course and kill them, but you would already have lost something.

**Grey Templar**

It does help that the Nids propulsion is much slower than Warp travel.

**darthnatus**

Grey Templar wrote:
It does help that the Nids propulsion is much slower than Warp travel.

Um are you sure about that? http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Narvhal

**Tyran**

Tyranid FTL is slower than warp, but not by much. Kryptman have a lot of trouble to outrun Behemoth.

And there is the problem of warp travel being unreliable while Tyranid one is quite reliable.

And coordinating several fleets is hard when the Shadow cuts communications and blinds navigators.

And there is also possible that the Imperial fleets ends like Ultima Battlefleet.

**Grey Templar**

darthnatus wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
It does help that the Nids propulsion is much slower than Warp travel.

Um are you sure about that? http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Narvhal

Very sure.

Tyranids do not travel via Warp jumps, such as the Imperium does, and so instead rely on their Narvhal ships. Through the use of monofilament spines clustered along a Narvhal's bow which can interpret a wide range of sensory input and even a broad spectrum of gravimetric signals, a Narvhal can detect the presence of a planetary system at an incredible distance away. It can then somehow harness the system's gravity to create a corridor of compressed-space through which Tyranid vessels can travel towards the system at a swift rate. Whilst slower than proper warp travel, this method is infinitely more reliable

However, strong gravitational forces cause interference with a Narvhal's delicate senses. And so on final approach to a system, a Tyranid fleet can no longer use a Narvhal's ability but must resort to slower conventional propulsion whilst within a system's borders. This will often slow their arrival by years or even decades

**Knockagh**

Grey Templar wrote:
The thing is that the Virus burns itself out pretty quickly if it doesn't have anything to eat away at. So while the nids it directly hits will be toast, the other ships nearby will simply pull back till its burnt out. Which will be fairly quick.

There is nothing to spread the virus among the fleet and so its blunted.

You need things on the order of Nova Cannons to have super weapons that can destroy the Nids.

This makes the most sence to me so far.

But I still think that even If exterminatus is not the answer, some form of evolving viral warfare would be best used against any enemy composed entirely of organic matter. We have diseases and virus mutate in the real universe and we don't stop using vaccine and vaccines evolve as strains mutate. Viral warfare should be the same.

**Kain**

Deadshot wrote:
Vaerros wrote:
Xyptc wrote:
Plus there is always that nagging fear that using the Life Eater virus against the Hive Mind will allow the Hive Fleet will adapt to the Life Eater virus, or worse yet build a controlled version of it into its own arsenal...

That's not really a valid concern though, if we accept that tyranids wouldn't be as interested in consuming virus-bombed biospheres.

To the OP's point, given what we know about bio-ships, some kind of anti-Tyranid virus weapon could be effective against them(and we have fluff precedence for using biological weapons against nids, as mentioned above).

If that's the case why are the most effective weapons (for a bog-standard marine) Hellfire rounds which use a mutagenic acid? Surely they are worried about the Hive Mind developing something like that, or worsed, become immune to it?

A corrosive agent is hard to resist without defying the laws of chemistry.

And no a base wouldn't work unless you're fond of combusting.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
darthnatus wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
It does help that the Nids propulsion is much slower than Warp travel.

Um are you sure about that? http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Narvhal

Very sure.

Tyranids do not travel via Warp jumps, such as the Imperium does, and so instead rely on their Narvhal ships. Through the use of monofilament spines clustered along a Narvhal's bow which can interpret a wide range of sensory input and even a broad spectrum of gravimetric signals, a Narvhal can detect the presence of a planetary system at an incredible distance away. It can then somehow harness the system's gravity to create a corridor of compressed-space through which Tyranid vessels can travel towards the system at a swift rate. Whilst slower than proper warp travel, this method is infinitely more reliable

However, strong gravitational forces cause interference with a Narvhal's delicate senses. And so on final approach to a system, a Tyranid fleet can no longer use a Narvhal's ability but must resort to slower conventional propulsion whilst within a system's borders. This will often slow their arrival by years or even decades

It doesn't state how much slower, and if Kryptmann had to race Behemoth, it can't be that much slower.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Knockagh wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
The thing is that the Virus burns itself out pretty quickly if it doesn't have anything to eat away at. So while the nids it directly hits will be toast, the other ships nearby will simply pull back till its burnt out. Which will be fairly quick.

There is nothing to spread the virus among the fleet and so its blunted.

You need things on the order of Nova Cannons to have super weapons that can destroy the Nids.

This makes the most sence to me so far.

But I still think that even If exterminatus is not the answer, some form of evolving viral warfare would be best used against any enemy composed entirely of organic matter. We have diseases and virus mutate in the real universe and we don't stop using vaccine and vaccines evolve as strains mutate. Viral warfare should be the same.

The Tyranids can direct their own evolution and directly mix and match genetics like lego blocks.

No natural evolution can top that. Hell, even a greater Daemon of Nurgle couldn't top that.

**Psienesis**

Where Tyranids get really slow is once the Narvhal drops them out of their gravity-tunnel on the outer edges of the system. Now they gotta fart their way to the habitable worlds in the system and sub-light speeds. This is noted as taking decades to centuries.

**Iron_Captain**

I am pretty sure that firing sacred Exterminatus-grade weapons at a Tyranid Hive Fleet would be considered heresy.
The Imperium is way too conservative to try something unorthodox like that.

**Psienesis**

Since it's an Inquisitor that gives the order to fire Exterminatus-grade weapons, and it is also the Inquisition who determines what is or is not heresy, pretty sure they'll be fine.

**Deadshot**

Psienesis wrote:
Since it's an Inquisitor that gives the order to fire Exterminatus-grade weapons, and it is also the Inquisition who determines what is or is not heresy, pretty sure they'll be fine.

SM chapter Masters can also issue Exterminatus. If you also take DoW as in any way canon, so can strike force commanders/Brother Captains (Gabriel Angelos). I'm also prettu sure other high-rankers like Segmentum Fleet Admirals and Commanders can likewise.

**Psienesis**

Deadshot wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Since it's an Inquisitor that gives the order to fire Exterminatus-grade weapons, and it is also the Inquisition who determines what is or is not heresy, pretty sure they'll be fine.

SM chapter Masters can also issue Exterminatus. If you also take DoW as in any way canon, so can strike force commanders/Brother Captains (Gabriel Angelos). I'm also prettu sure other high-rankers like Segmentum Fleet Admirals and Commanders can likewise.

You will remember that Inquisitor Thoth tells Gabriel Angelos that the Inquisition came to Cyrene and enacted Exterminatus at his command, Angelos did not do it himself.

I don't recall an IN Admiral having the political clout to destroy one of the Emperor's planets, and definitely not an IG Commander.

**Deadshot**

Psienesis wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Since it's an Inquisitor that gives the order to fire Exterminatus-grade weapons, and it is also the Inquisition who determines what is or is not heresy, pretty sure they'll be fine.

SM chapter Masters can also issue Exterminatus. If you also take DoW as in any way canon, so can strike force commanders/Brother Captains (Gabriel Angelos). I'm also prettu sure other high-rankers like Segmentum Fleet Admirals and Commanders can likewise.

You will remember that Inquisitor Thoth tells Gabriel Angelos that the Inquisition came to Cyrene and enacted Exterminatus at his command, Angelos did not do it himself.

I don't recall an IN Admiral having the political clout to destroy one of the Emperor's planets, and definitely not an IG Commander.

An IN Commander, whoever is leading the ultrafeth-huge Crusading Armada of the day. Unless they would not be called a Commander at all.

I'm pretty sure the highest ranking IG like Creed would have a huge amount of sway about stuff like Exterminatus.

Then again, he could just ally with the Necrons and hide a World Engine inside a Hive Ship

Creeeeeeeedddd!

**Psienesis**

Oh, the Lord General or Warmaster. That is typically an IG position, not a Naval position, since the Navy does not win land-based wars.

Possibly has the authority to call for it, but I believe it's the Inquisition who makes the final call. I know that Creed (during the 13th Black Crusade) has a planet destroyed, but not via Exterminatus weapons, they send people to the planet to overload the geothermal reactors which makes it shatter.

**Tyran**

Psienesis wrote:
Where Tyranids get really slow is once the Narvhal drops them out of their gravity-tunnel on the outer edges of the system. Now they gotta fart their way to the habitable worlds in the system and sub-light speeds. This is noted as taking decades to centuries.

It takes months to decades depending the author, but not centuries. And the real problem with the Tyranids is organizing a defense with the communications cut by the shadow in the warp.

**Psienesis**

Tyran wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Where Tyranids get really slow is once the Narvhal drops them out of their gravity-tunnel on the outer edges of the system. Now they gotta fart their way to the habitable worlds in the system and sub-light speeds. This is noted as taking decades to centuries.

It takes months to decades depending the author, but not centuries. And the real problem with the Tyranids is organizing a defense with the communications cut by the shadow in the warp.

Would depend on the size of the system, wouldn't it?

**Tyran**

Psienesis wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Where Tyranids get really slow is once the Narvhal drops them out of their gravity-tunnel on the outer edges of the system. Now they gotta fart their way to the habitable worlds in the system and sub-light speeds. This is noted as taking decades to centuries.

It takes months to decades depending the author, but not centuries. And the real problem with the Tyranids is organizing a defense with the communications cut by the shadow in the warp.

Would depend on the size of the system, wouldn't it?

Depends on the author, but centuries is definitively a no. Behemoth took 70 years IIRC to go from Tyran to Macrage.
And warp travel isn't much better.

**Imperator_Class**

Now, assume it hits the biggest mofo hive ship there, and detonates, wiping out the ship from the face of existence. After that, where does that excess energy go? Out, exploding ad destroying everything for a couple hundred light years. With a planet the energy is absorbed and used up in destroy the planet by the huge mass but the Hive Ships will be more of a speedbump. Then it'll take out a large chunk of ships, but after that, who's next in line? You.

A couple hundred light years? Do you realise how much of a distance that is?

**Deadshot**

Imperator_Class wrote:
Now, assume it hits the biggest mofo hive ship there, and detonates, wiping out the ship from the face of existence. After that, where does that excess energy go? Out, exploding ad destroying everything for a couple hundred light years. With a planet the energy is absorbed and used up in destroy the planet by the huge mass but the Hive Ships will be more of a speedbump. Then it'll take out a large chunk of ships, but after that, who's next in line? You.

A couple hundred light years? Do you realise how much of a distance that is?

Yep. Hyperbole.

**TheCustomLime**

The way Virus Bombs could work on a hive fleet is if you fired so many at them that it would hit all of their ships all at once. Individual organisms cannot change their own genetics but a population can and, as many have noted, the Tyranids excell at this. However, if you have that many craft to do such a thing you'd probably be far better served by standard naval weapons as there is always a non-zero chance that a hive ship or two has survived the initial bombardment due to a chance mutation.

Why don't they make warp drive bombs? Surely this would be a great ace in the hole for the Imperial fleet against many of it's foes including Necrons. Not grimdark enough?

**Imperator_Class**

Warp drive bombs would create warp rifts... Ergo deamons.

**Psienesis**

Depends on the author, but centuries is definitively a no. Behemoth took 70 years IIRC to go from Tyran to Macrage.
And warp travel isn't much better.

Warp travel has a significantly better speed than that. It's an estimated, what, 5 years to Warp-jump from one side of the galaxy to the other (assuming no accidents). That's crazy-fast travel.

The 70 years from Tyran to Macragge involves a lot of Narvhal travel, as it's interstellar, which is obviously really, really slow if it took that long to travel what is, galactically speaking, across the street.

Imagine it making that trip sans narvhal, where it had to fart its way between the stars at sub-light speeds? It would take it millennia to go that far.

**TheCustomLime**

Imperator_Class wrote:
Warp drive bombs would create warp rifts... Ergo deamons.

The thing is that, if you can catch a Tyranid fleet in time, warp rifts arent important since youll be firing them off in deep space.

**TiamatRoar**

TheCustomLime wrote:
Imperator_Class wrote:
Warp drive bombs would create warp rifts... Ergo deamons.

The thing is that, if you can catch a Tyranid fleet in time, warp rifts arent important since youll be firing them off in deep space.

A warp rift in deep space is still a rift that the forces of chaos can use to enter the material realm (The Eye of Terror for example). Both daemons and chaos marines have access to space ships, after all (although it'd more likely be chaos marines using the warp rift. ...and then summoning the daemons afterwards once they reach their destination)

**Tyran**

Psienesis wrote:

Depends on the author, but centuries is definitively a no. Behemoth took 70 years IIRC to go from Tyran to Macrage.
And warp travel isn't much better.

Warp travel has a significantly better speed than that. It's an estimated, what, 5 years to Warp-jump from one side of the galaxy to the other (assuming no accidents). That's crazy-fast travel.

The 70 years from Tyran to Macragge involves a lot of Narvhal travel, as it's interstellar, which is obviously really, really slow if it took that long to travel what is, galactically speaking, across the street.

Imagine it making that trip sans narvhal, where it had to fart its way between the stars at sub-light speeds? It would take it millennia to go that far.

Yeah it is slow, but not century slow.
And warp travel is unreliable, sometimes it is fast, and sometimes it misses and one ends in the future, or in the past. Add the bureaucracy of the Imperium and you have fleets arriving centuries late. Add the Shadow in the Warp, and the Imperium practically doesn't fight back because it never receive the messages of the planets being attacked.

**BlaxicanX**

Psienesis wrote:

Depends on the author, but centuries is definitively a no. Behemoth took 70 years IIRC to go from Tyran to Macrage.
And warp travel isn't much better.

Warp travel has a significantly better speed than that. It's an estimated, what, 5 years to Warp-jump from one side of the galaxy to the other (assuming no accidents).

Star Wars ships can do that in 7 days.

**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

Imperator_Class wrote:
Warp drive bombs would create warp rifts... Ergo deamons.

I don't think anything has been mentioned about the consequences of the Dominus Astra detonating it's Warp Drive and taking out most of a Hive Fleet near Macragge. I'm unconvinced that it would actually create a Warp rift any more than a Vortex bomb or D-Cannon does. It'd be expensive, yes, but considering the damage it did to Hive Fleet Behemoth it'd be worth it. And a crew willing to sacrifice themselves on such a suicide run wouldn't be hard to find in the Imperium. The hardest thing to do would like be to convince the tech-priests to let it happen to their sacred machines.

BlaxicanX wrote:Star Wars ships can do that in 7 days.

Is the size of the Star Wars galaxy ever stated?

**Wyzilla**

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Imperator_Class wrote:
Warp drive bombs would create warp rifts... Ergo deamons.

I don't think anything has been mentioned about the consequences of the Dominus Astra detonating it's Warp Drive and taking out most of a Hive Fleet near Macragge. I'm unconvinced that it would actually create a Warp rift any more than a Vortex bomb or D-Cannon does. It'd be expensive, yes, but considering the damage it did to Hive Fleet Behemoth it'd be worth it. And a crew willing to sacrifice themselves on such a suicide run wouldn't be hard to find in the Imperium. The hardest thing to do would like be to convince the tech-priests to let it happen to their sacred machines.

BlaxicanX wrote:Star Wars ships can do that in 7 days.

Is the size of the Star Wars galaxy ever stated?

120,000 light years across, so just the size of the Milky Way.

**Tyran**

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Imperator_Class wrote:
Warp drive bombs would create warp rifts... Ergo deamons.

I don't think anything has been mentioned about the consequences of the Dominus Astra detonating it's Warp Drive and taking out most of a Hive Fleet near Macragge. I'm unconvinced that it would actually create a Warp rift any more than a Vortex bomb or D-Cannon does. It'd be expensive, yes, but considering the damage it did to Hive Fleet Behemoth it'd be worth it. And a crew willing to sacrifice themselves on such a suicide run wouldn't be hard to find in the Imperium. The hardest thing to do would like be to convince the tech-priests to let it happen to their sacred machines.

I imagine that the Tyranids have developed some countermeasure against warp rifts, probably something like spreading their ships to avoid most of the damage.

BlaxicanX wrote:Star Wars ships can do that in 7 days.

Is the size of the Star Wars galaxy ever stated?

Slightly larger than Milky Way IIRC.

**Psienesis**

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Imperator_Class wrote:
Warp drive bombs would create warp rifts... Ergo deamons.

I don't think anything has been mentioned about the consequences of the Dominus Astra detonating it's Warp Drive and taking out most of a Hive Fleet near Macragge. I'm unconvinced that it would actually create a Warp rift any more than a Vortex bomb or D-Cannon does. It'd be expensive, yes, but considering the damage it did to Hive Fleet Behemoth it'd be worth it. And a crew willing to sacrifice themselves on such a suicide run wouldn't be hard to find in the Imperium. The hardest thing to do would like be to convince the tech-priests to let it happen to their sacred machines.

There are more Tyranids than the Imperium has ships.