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Given this scaled reference I made that shows various ships relative to one another...



I'm trying to make sense of the technical details concerning these ships. As far as I've encountered, I haven't seen really any technical data on them. I found the sizes cited from various places around the net. I'm not sure if there has been anything that canonically establishes details such at if the things on the side of the battle barge is weapons or communication? I know there has been some stuff from the various video game (if anybody has links to said footage that would be great). I'm not aware of armament differences other than Space marine compliment.

And that is where I get a bit confused. I'm a pretty technical minded person and I served on military warships in real life. I am trying to understand the size discrepancy between the various classes of ships (escort, light cruiser, and battle).

I figure that a ship breaks into 5 major sections according to function;

Engineering

Command

Armament

Living

Cargo Bay

I cannot find specifics regarding size, I now don't even remember where I got the numbers I'm using (but they seem reasonable consider specification of other ships).

I have some sketches I will upload with some more postulations about ship layout (and the little bit of technical data from the BFG book)

Any input into this discussion by anyone will be appreciated.

I would love to do a technical drawing cut away for the 40K Space Marine fleet, maybe I should work on my drawing skills.

Those big round things on the side of the "neck" of the Battle Barge are probably macrocannons. They are feth-off huge guns. They could also be the launch-tubes for drop-pods.

The radio antennae and other short-range comm devices on these ships are not visible at these scales.

I am trying to understand the size discrepancy between the various classes of ships (escort, light cruiser, and battle).

All ships in the Imperium are fething *huge*. They are gargantuan beasts of forged iron and adamantine, filled with technology dating back to the Dark Age of Technology, barely understood by the Tech-Priests of Mars, and intended to serve in the God-Emperor's Navy for thousands upon thousands of years.

What determines a ship's class is less its size and more its function. A frigate, for example, will often have more cargo and less weapons than a destroyer of the same general size. So that Hunter-Destroyer listed there will have more guns and torpedoes than the frigates... though these ships will not be unarmed.

They certainly are huge, the notion that only a squad of Marines would detach with and escort class cruiser is what blows my mind. That ship is the length of 5 aircraft carriers and it only holds 10 Marines?

But if you break them down into roles it makes a bit more sense. Small missions with 2-10 marines can be dispatched on the faster lighter escort class than on the larger more logistically challenging cruisers.

A company detachment requires the capabilities of a cruiser and a full planetary assault requires the resources of a three company (with the ability to deploy all three compaines to landfall at once!) stacked Battle Barge. And with the theoretical chapter compliment existing around 1000 marines, it makes sens that their fleet would consist at 2-3 Battle Barges at the most.

The Space Marines remain pretty independent of other organizations as much as possible. For example, the crew required to man these ships must consist of hundreds and thousands of servitors, but are their human equivalents? I doubt the Imperial Navy or Tech priest of Mars have too much to do with Space Marine transport, so are these massive ships controlled mostly by servitors?

At least the Warp pilots have to be from the Navigator class right?

At least the Warp pilots have to be from the Navigator class right?

Yep. Any vessel that is going to do any kind of inter-stellar jump is going to need Navigator. According to some BL novels, it is possible to make in-system jumps using automated systems... but the scope of 40k doesn't really get into these small-scale aspects.

For example, the crew required to man these ships must consist of hundreds and thousands of servitors, but are their human equivalents? I doubt the Imperial Navy or Tech priest of Mars have too much to do with Space Marine transport, so are these massive ships controlled mostly by servitors?

Varies by Chapter, but the most-common example would be Chapter Serfs. These are people who are either sworn to the Chapter as a servant (and may hold much wealth and prestige in the non-Astartes section of the populace) as a hereditary position, or are people who were Initiates into the Chapter, but were unable to pass the training (yet survived) or were somehow deemed unsuitable.

Servitors are uncommon to rare, being the Imperium's version of a robot. It's a lobotomized person fitted with various augmetics to perform the role they are designed for.

The amount of Marines that can be stored in ships is pretty ridiculous. You could easily fit an entire Chapter inside a 1.3km ship.

 Harriticus wrote:
The amount of Marines that can be stored in ships is pretty ridiculous. You could easily fit an entire Chapter inside a 1.3km ship.

Was it the Codex Astartes that suggested that Strike Cruisers carry about a company and Battle Barges carry about 3 companies then?

It is the BFG Imperial Fleets book that specifies;

1 squad in light cruiser
1 company in a strike cruiser
3 companies in a battle barge


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

For example, the crew required to man these ships must consist of hundreds and thousands of servitors, but are their human equivalents? I doubt the Imperial Navy or Tech priest of Mars have too much to do with Space Marine transport, so are these massive ships controlled mostly by servitors?

Varies by Chapter, but the most-common example would be Chapter Serfs. These are people who are either sworn to the Chapter as a servant (and may hold much wealth and prestige in the non-Astartes section of the populace) as a hereditary position, or are people who were Initiates into the Chapter, but were unable to pass the training (yet survived) or were somehow deemed unsuitable.

Servitors are uncommon to rare, being the Imperium's version of a robot. It's a lobotomized person fitted with various augmetics to perform the role they are designed for.

You are correct about the serfs, I just read about that! They do use mostly servitors to run the ship, seems to be a trust issue within the Imperium.

Space Marine Fleets in Battlefleet Gothic

When Gullliman set about the long and arduous task of preparing Codex Asartes, the role of space vessels amongst the Adeptus Astartes proved a particular sticking. For an Imperium still reeling from internecine Heresy that almost tore it apart, the division of power was vitally important consideration. Of the most extreme options of offer, it was ventured by some that the Space Marines should be denied any vessels at all, varying intra-system transports for movement between homeworlds and attendant moons. Corax, amonst others, protested strongly that in fact had the Space Marines been better equipped with fleets of their own his own Legion might not have been so horrendously decimated when trapped o Istvann V by Horus and the newly revealed traitors. Instead, a compromise was reached which limited the Space Marines to vessels whose primary role was that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assault. Only the smallest of vessels would be permitted to act exclusively as gunships, with larger battlebarges and strike cruisers remaining predominantly as aids to invasion, ensuring the Space Marines would never present a threat to the Imperial Navy proper. Inevitably, the wrangling over the interpretation of a ship’s ‘primary role’ leads to some chapters possessing rather more versatile fleets than the Imperial Navy is entirely comfortable with.

Unlike the vessels of the Imperial Navy, a Space Marine ship has a relatively small crew. A Space Marine is far too valuable to waste in manning a gun or watching a surveyor screen, and so only the officers aboard a vessel are likely to be Space Marines, as well as the few Techmarines who oversee the engines and perform other mechanical duties. Almost all the ship’s systems are run and monitored by servitors; half-human cyborgs who are wired into the vessel’s weapons, engines and communications apparatus. There are also a few hundred Chapter serfs to attend to other duties such as routine cleaning and maintenance, serving the Space Marines during meal times and other such honored tasks. These serfs come from the Chapter’s home planet or the enclave they protect, many of them Novitiates or applicants who have failed some part of the recruiting or training process. These serfs are fanatically loyal to their superhuman masters, and indoctrinated into many of the lesser orders of the Chapter’s Cult. Although human, they still benefit from remarkable training and access to superior weaponry than is usually found on a naval vessel, making them a fearsome prospect in a boarding action – even without the support of their genetically modified lords.

Don't know if this helps, but most stories have certain areas in the same place. Engineering is described as being at the back of the ship, surrounding the engines. The navigator is usually described as being in one of the spires or somewhere high and back in the ship, this varies though. I imagine the rest of those spires contain the bridge communication and observation decks.

A cobra-class destroyer has a crew compliment (both servitors, and serfs, of 15,000 people)
(Source: Rogue Trader Splatbook "Into the storm")

Those strike cruisers have a compliment of near 20,000, and then carry 100 marines, their tanks, drop pods, attack craft, and gear, along with arming, and repair facilities.

Thanks, those numbers are exactly what I would be looking for.

Here is a couple break downs I was thinking....



Although I just read that three squadron of thunderhawks are in the prow launch bays (how big is a thunderhawk squadron, 3??).

 jabbakahut wrote:
Thanks, those numbers are exactly what I would be looking for.

Here is a couple break downs I was thinking....



Although I just read that three squadron of thunderhawks are in the prow launch bays (how big is a thunderhawk squadron, 3??).

W40K ships are coated in weapons. It's not specific areas like with Federation ships in Star Trek.

 Wyzilla wrote:

W40K ships are coated in weapons. It's not specific areas like with Federation ships in Star Trek.

The weapons listed in the BFG book don't seem to support this.
for example
Battlebarge

Port weapon battery

starboard weapon battery

prow torpedoes

dorsal bombardment cannon

I mean, the weapon batteries could be expressed as pairs of cannon turrets like on a star destroyer.

Game Mechanics =/= real life, but yes the main weapons are in specific areas.

The ships are covered small turrets to protect against fighter craft and ordinance.

On your pictures, the bridge on Imperial ships is the forward area that you have highlighted in yellow.

The blue area is the launch bays. You will notice on the physical models that that area is open. You could actually park a couple Galaxy class Federation ships in there.

 jabbakahut wrote:
They certainly are huge, the notion that only a squad of Marines would detach with and escort class cruiser is what blows my mind. That ship is the length of 5 aircraft carriers and it only holds 10 Marines?

Its not super crazy when you realize that there is also a crew of several thousand chapter serfs/servitors. The ratio will depend on the chapter. The Marines are really more there as the ship's command crew and also to serve in the event of a boarding action. In which case the cramped conditions of a ship will magnify their effect and allow their numbers not to matter.

Serfs can be either humans recruited for that specific purpose and/or failed initiates. Often from the homeworld. They will be fairly skilled as far as humans go and will have access to excellent weapons and training. Easily a cut above Imperial Navy armsmen.

It is also worth noting that the small Space Marine compliments are not NOT the maximums. For example The Conquer (Wold Eater's flagship) is the equivilent to an upgunned Desolator class battleship. It holds several companies of SMs, 90+ warhound titans and has an antiboarding compliment of 5 elite companies. BattleBarges existed at the same time and would be less then pointless if they could not at least match antiship battleships. At least in the transportation of troops department, being super armoured heavy transports. This become even more appearent when you consider that they are capable of deploying three companies simultaneously.

 Harriticus wrote:
The amount of Marines that can be stored in ships is pretty ridiculous. You could easily fit an entire Chapter inside a 1.3km ship.

Just men? Yeah, sure, but with equipment, training ranges, docking ports, storage, living area for the crew (not marines), space taken up for the on board weapons and ammo, and then finally and what I always mention in these questions, you can see the engines on the outside, you have no idea how far those things stretch back into the hull or how large the engine room is, we also have absolutely no idea how large a warp drive is, none at all and we don't know how large the gellar field system is either, all three of those things could take up a 1/3 or 2/3 of each ship for all we know.

 Stonerhino wrote:
It is also worth noting that the small Space Marine compliments are not NOT the maximums. For example The Conquer (Wold Eater's flagship) is the equivilent to an upgunned Desolator class battleship. It holds several companies of SMs, 90+ warhound titans and has an antiboarding compliment of 5 elite companies. BattleBarges existed at the same time and would be less then pointless if they could not at least match antiship battleships. At least in the transportation of troops department, being super armoured heavy transports. This become even more appearent when you consider that they are capable of deploying three companies simultaneously.

And that "simultaneously" means by Drop Pod. So the Battle Barge can drop on the order of 100+ Pods as well as dozens of Thunderhawk transporters.

Those ship sizes are just something someone made up and are in no way canonical.

Yeah, I guess they really serve the role of troop carrier, I didn't think of it that way-but it makes sense. And based on my reading, every chapter sort of does what they want in this regard anyway. But just trying to justify it and make sure my thoughts and choices are as canonical as possible.

What is a reasonable stock of thunderhawks per class of ship?
The battlebarge lists three squadrons. If you need to deploy support landraiders and rhino for three companies. I guess it would have a seperate fleets of thunderhawk dropships and gunships.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Just men? Yeah, sure, but with equipment, training ranges, docking ports, storage, living area for the crew (not marines), space taken up for the on board weapons and ammo, and then finally and what I always mention in these questions, you can see the engines on the outside, you have no idea how far those things stretch back into the hull or how large the engine room is, we also have absolutely no idea how large a warp drive is, none at all and we don't know how large the gellar field system is either, all three of those things could take up a 1/3 or 2/3 of each ship for all we know.

It doesn't matter, volume of these ships is ludicrous. A ship that is is five times the length of an aircraft carrier, will have 125 times it's volume. And that is the small ship that can deploy ten marines. It doesn't make any sense.

Sure it does.

And by the way, thats just the normal crew compliment that ship has of marines. But as has been stated its also got thousands of normal humans and servitors on it as the crew who run the ship itself. The marines are both the command crew and main force to repel borders.

 Crimson wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Just men? Yeah, sure, but with equipment, training ranges, docking ports, storage, living area for the crew (not marines), space taken up for the on board weapons and ammo, and then finally and what I always mention in these questions, you can see the engines on the outside, you have no idea how far those things stretch back into the hull or how large the engine room is, we also have absolutely no idea how large a warp drive is, none at all and we don't know how large the gellar field system is either, all three of those things could take up a 1/3 or 2/3 of each ship for all we know.

It doesn't matter, volume of these ships is ludicrous. A ship that is is five times the length of an aircraft carrier, will have 125 times it's volume. And that is the small ship that can deploy ten marines. It doesn't make any sense.

Yeah man, isn't it crazy? Clearly America should shrink down the size of Aircraft Carriers to that of a fishing crawler because you could easily cram a platoon's worth of SEALs in there, amirite?

jabbakahut wrote:They certainly are huge, the notion that only a squad of Marines would detach with and escort class cruiser is what blows my mind. That ship is the length of 5 aircraft carriers and it only holds 10 Marines?

But if you break them down into roles it makes a bit more sense. Small missions with 2-10 marines can be dispatched on the faster lighter escort class than on the larger more logistically challenging cruisers.

A company detachment requires the capabilities of a cruiser and a full planetary assault requires the resources of a three company (with the ability to deploy all three compaines to landfall at once!) stacked Battle Barge. And with the theoretical chapter compliment existing around 1000 marines, it makes sens that their fleet would consist at 2-3 Battle Barges at the most.

The Space Marines remain pretty independent of other organizations as much as possible. For example, the crew required to man these ships must consist of hundreds and thousands of servitors, but are their human equivalents? I doubt the Imperial Navy or Tech priest of Mars have too much to do with Space Marine transport, so are these massive ships controlled mostly by servitors?

I've underlined what I feel is a misconception. You're looking for requirements and efficiency. I once ran a Dark Heresy game (RPG set in WH40K universe) in which there was a ship that had an entire PRISON on one of the decks that had been forgotten about for over a decade. The prisoners were only still alive because the servitors had been programmed to take food down there. Imperial ships are monstrosities. If you're interested, read the novel Void Stalker if you're interested in it at all, as much of it takes place on a very old ship (admittedly a larger one) where the Chaos Space Marines who rule it sometimes go down to the lower decks just to hunt for sport. It really doesn't matter who they kill - they neither know nor care, because there are whole populations down there.

To get a feel for an Imperial vessel, imagine the following: there is a family of people whose job it is to tend the power systems for the airlocks on the 43rd deck. Their family has performed this sacred duty for generations.. They don't really understand the technology but they know that their sacred duty to the Emperor is to replace the blue cylinders every four months and to ensure that the venting ducts around there are free of vermin and refuse. Their family has taken pride in this holy duty entrusted to their ancestor by a Tech Priest. But after damage in an engagement four centuries ago the airlocks on the 43rd deck do not work. At all. For the last four-hundred years this family has performed by rote their task for no reason whatsoever and - this is the point - no-one will ever stop them.

The concept of the crew "required" to run the vessel is misconceived. Even areas where you might expect efficiency, such as loading the macrobatteries, there are probably four times the number you'd actually need just to take account of the fact that thirty of them might have been wiped out by the case of plague the ship had last year. These are not vessels that are given a small compliment of necessary people and backed up by reliable supply chains and regular crew changes. These are cities that could be lost in the Warp for fifty years or at war so long no-one alive on the ship remembers actually docking at a port. So you can't compare them to a regular naval ship of today. No naval ship of today has ever had to worry if the crew have had enough children to replace them when they die of old age.

jabbakahut wrote:At least the Warp pilots have to be from the Navigator class right?

Yes. This is so. The RPG Rogue Trader contains rules for warp travel (along with a lot of fluff) and whilst it's possible to engage the warp engines and make small jumps without a navigator, it's a lot riskier and a lot slower. Only the navigators have the ability to see the warp properly and pilot a ship through it. Without them, you're relying on the limited and inaccurate guesses of your cogitators. Also note, navigators are not a "class". They're families, whole dynasties really, who use eugenics and selective breeding to ensure their lines remain pure or improve their warp abilities. No-one can train to be a navigator. You have to be born into one of the navigator families.

jabbakahut wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

W40K ships are coated in weapons. It's not specific areas like with Federation ships in Star Trek.

The weapons listed in the BFG book don't seem to support this.
for example
Battlebarge

Port weapon battery

starboard weapon battery

prow torpedoes

dorsal bombardment cannon

I mean, the weapon batteries could be expressed as pairs of cannon turrets like on a star destroyer.

BFG is really only listing the things relevant to a battle between massive ships at that scale. There's a whole tonne of stuff that they abstract away. An imperial vessel is covered in small weapons to repel boarders and deal with small fighters, etc.

I hope all this is of some help.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
A ship that is is five times the length of an aircraft carrier, will have 125 times it's volume. And that is the small ship that can deploy ten marines. It doesn't make any sense.

That's incorrect. A vehicle that is five times the length of an aircraft carrier will have FIVE times the carrier's volume. It will have 125 times its volume if it is five times the length AND five times its width AND five times its depth / height.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Yeah man, isn't it crazy? Clearly America should shrink down the size of Aircraft Carriers to that of a fishing crawler because you could easily cram a platoon's worth of SEALs in there, amirite?

The design purpose of an aircraft carrier is not to transport Navy Seals. It is to provide a mobile base that can supply airpower away from land-based airfields and supply lines and to be the centre point of a military presence. There is a reason "carrier groups" are named for the carrier amongst the ships.

knas ser wrote:

That's incorrect. A vehicle that is five times the length of an aircraft carrier will have FIVE times the carrier's volume. It will have 125 times its volume if it is five times the length AND five times its width AND five times its depth / height.

Obviously. But as Imperial ships are not long, thin needles, the math still applies.

knas ser wrote:

jabbakahut wrote:They certainly are huge, the notion that only a squad of Marines would detach with and escort class cruiser is what blows my mind. That ship is the length of 5 aircraft carriers and it only holds 10 Marines?

But if you break them down into roles it makes a bit more sense. Small missions with 2-10 marines can be dispatched on the faster lighter escort class than on the larger more logistically challenging cruisers.

A company detachment requires the capabilities of a cruiser and a full planetary assault requires the resources of a three company (with the ability to deploy all three compaines to landfall at once!) stacked Battle Barge. And with the theoretical chapter compliment existing around 1000 marines, it makes sens that their fleet would consist at 2-3 Battle Barges at the most.

The Space Marines remain pretty independent of other organizations as much as possible. For example, the crew required to man these ships must consist of hundreds and thousands of servitors, but are their human equivalents? I doubt the Imperial Navy or Tech priest of Mars have too much to do with Space Marine transport, so are these massive ships controlled mostly by servitors?

I've underlined what I feel is a misconception. You're looking for requirements and efficiency. I once ran a Dark Heresy game (RPG set in WH40K universe) in which there was a ship that had an entire PRISON on one of the decks that had been forgotten about for over a decade. The prisoners were only still alive because the servitors had been programmed to take food down there. Imperial ships are monstrosities. If you're interested, read the novel Void Stalker if you're interested in it at all, as much of it takes place on a very old ship (admittedly a larger one) where the Chaos Space Marines who rule it sometimes go down to the lower decks just to hunt for sport. It really doesn't matter who they kill - they neither know nor care, because there are whole populations down there.

To get a feel for an Imperial vessel, imagine the following: there is a family of people whose job it is to tend the power systems for the airlocks on the 43rd deck. Their family has performed this sacred duty for generations.. They don't really understand the technology but they know that their sacred duty to the Emperor is to replace the blue cylinders every four months and to ensure that the venting ducts around there are free of vermin and refuse. Their family has taken pride in this holy duty entrusted to their ancestor by a Tech Priest. But after damage in an engagement four centuries ago the airlocks on the 43rd deck do not work. At all. For the last four-hundred years this family has performed by rote their task for no reason whatsoever and - this is the point - no-one will ever stop them.

The concept of the crew "required" to run the vessel is misconceived. Even areas where you might expect efficiency, such as loading the macrobatteries, there are probably four times the number you'd actually need just to take account of the fact that thirty of them might have been wiped out by the case of plague the ship had last year. These are not vessels that are given a small compliment of necessary people and backed up by reliable supply chains and regular crew changes. These are cities that could be lost in the Warp for fifty years or at war so long no-one alive on the ship remembers actually docking at a port. So you can't compare them to a regular naval ship of today. No naval ship of today has ever had to worry if the crew have had enough children to replace them when they die of old age.

jabbakahut wrote:At least the Warp pilots have to be from the Navigator class right?

Yes. This is so. The RPG Rogue Trader contains rules for warp travel (along with a lot of fluff) and whilst it's possible to engage the warp engines and make small jumps without a navigator, it's a lot riskier and a lot slower. Only the navigators have the ability to see the warp properly and pilot a ship through it. Without them, you're relying on the limited and inaccurate guesses of your cogitators. Also note, navigators are not a "class". They're families, whole dynasties really, who use eugenics and selective breeding to ensure their lines remain pure or improve their warp abilities. No-one can train to be a navigator. You have to be born into one of the navigator families.

jabbakahut wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

W40K ships are coated in weapons. It's not specific areas like with Federation ships in Star Trek.

The weapons listed in the BFG book don't seem to support this.
for example
Battlebarge

Port weapon battery

starboard weapon battery

prow torpedoes

dorsal bombardment cannon

I mean, the weapon batteries could be expressed as pairs of cannon turrets like on a star destroyer.

BFG is really only listing the things relevant to a battle between massive ships at that scale. There's a whole tonne of stuff that they abstract away. An imperial vessel is covered in small weapons to repel boarders and deal with small fighters, etc.

I hope all this is of some help.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
A ship that is is five times the length of an aircraft carrier, will have 125 times it's volume. And that is the small ship that can deploy ten marines. It doesn't make any sense.

That's incorrect. A vehicle that is five times the length of an aircraft carrier will have FIVE times the carrier's volume. It will have 125 times its volume if it is five times the length AND five times its width AND five times its depth / height.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Yeah man, isn't it crazy? Clearly America should shrink down the size of Aircraft Carriers to that of a fishing crawler because you could easily cram a platoon's worth of SEALs in there, amirite?

The design purpose of an aircraft carrier is not to transport Navy Seals. It is to provide a mobile base that can supply airpower away from land-based airfields and supply lines and to be the centre point of a military presence. There is a reason "carrier groups" are named for the carrier amongst the ships.

That's the point I was making. The purpose of their craft is not to carry Space Marines. It's mean to be a private navy for the Chapter with ludicrous amounts of firepower. They're big so the ship can support more guns and thus more fire support- along with carry more ammunition and supplies for the Astartes on board.

 Crimson wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Just men? Yeah, sure, but with equipment, training ranges, docking ports, storage, living area for the crew (not marines), space taken up for the on board weapons and ammo, and then finally and what I always mention in these questions, you can see the engines on the outside, you have no idea how far those things stretch back into the hull or how large the engine room is, we also have absolutely no idea how large a warp drive is, none at all and we don't know how large the gellar field system is either, all three of those things could take up a 1/3 or 2/3 of each ship for all we know.

It doesn't matter, volume of these ships is ludicrous. A ship that is is five times the length of an aircraft carrier, will have 125 times it's volume. And that is the small ship that can deploy ten marines. It doesn't make any sense.

but we also don't know what volume is made up by the armour platimg, engines, shield generators, artificial gravity generators and weapons batteries and cathedrals. There may only be a few smallish caverns available for other kit after all that is totted up.

It would probably be best to compare a Space Ship to a Submarine and not a surface ship as far as how much space there is for the crew. In a word, not anywhere near as much as the total size would tell you.

Lots of space will be given over to atmosphere scrubbers and storage as well as engines, weapon systems, armor, and whatever else the ship is carrying.

Its very possible for there to be thousands of people on these ships living in cramped spaces while still having the ship be insanely huge.

This isn't Star Trek, real equipment is bulky.

the design purpose of a stirke cruiser or battle barge is multifold. it's not exactly just a transport ship

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
The amount of Marines that can be stored in ships is pretty ridiculous. You could easily fit an entire Chapter inside a 1.3km ship.

Just men? Yeah, sure, but with equipment, training ranges, docking ports, storage, living area for the crew (not marines), space taken up for the on board weapons and ammo, and then finally and what I always mention in these questions, you can see the engines on the outside, you have no idea how far those things stretch back into the hull or how large the engine room is, we also have absolutely no idea how large a warp drive is, none at all and we don't know how large the gellar field system is either, all three of those things could take up a 1/3 or 2/3 of each ship for all we know.

Even with all of this. Cruise Ships, which are designed around luxury and recreation and thus aren't especially crowded for ship standards, hold multi-thousands of passengers in a comfortable setting with all of their supplies and activities easily. And these ships are far smaller than a Hunter Class Destroyer.

Now yes Marines are bigger physically, but on a Cruise Ship passengers are put into rather large cabins (just look at standard bunks on USN warships) so this negates the size issue. You could easily fit ~900 Marines onto a Hunter Class Destroyer and have enough room for a supplies, weapons, a chapel, a jogging track, and a small firing range. The only issue might be vehicles, but even if you upgrade to a Frigate (nevermind a Strike Cruiser) you could easily fit the full armoury into there as well.


People don't get how much stuff you cam cram on a ship. Ask the US Navy. Star Wars ship sizes vs. holding capacity are much more realistic.

 Harriticus wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
The amount of Marines that can be stored in ships is pretty ridiculous. You could easily fit an entire Chapter inside a 1.3km ship.

Just men? Yeah, sure, but with equipment, training ranges, docking ports, storage, living area for the crew (not marines), space taken up for the on board weapons and ammo, and then finally and what I always mention in these questions, you can see the engines on the outside, you have no idea how far those things stretch back into the hull or how large the engine room is, we also have absolutely no idea how large a warp drive is, none at all and we don't know how large the gellar field system is either, all three of those things could take up a 1/3 or 2/3 of each ship for all we know.

Even with all of this. Cruise Ships, which are designed around luxury and recreation and thus aren't especially crowded for ship standards, hold multi-thousands of passengers in a comfortable setting with all of their supplies and activities easily. And these ships are far smaller than a Hunter Class Destroyer.

Now yes Marines are bigger physically, but on a Cruise Ship passengers are put into rather large cabins (just look at standard bunks on USN warships) so this negates the size issue. You could easily fit ~900 Marines onto a Hunter Class Destroyer and have enough room for a supplies, weapons, a chapel, a jogging track, and a small firing range. The only issue might be vehicles, but even if you upgrade to a Frigate (nevermind a Strike Cruiser) you could easily fit the full armoury into there as well.


People don't get how much stuff you cam cram on a ship. Ask the US Navy. Star Wars ship sizes vs. holding capacity are much more realistic.

That's because Space Marine fleets are not made to be carriers, they're battleships. This isn't hard to understand at all. They're big so they can carry more guns and more void shields to be ultimate battleships that protect the troops on the ground and allow the Chapter to be a formidable foe in both the ground and space. This is like whining that Aircraft Carriers are too large because they just hold Navy Seals, or the Iowa Battleships were too big for just holding marines.

 Crimson wrote:

knas ser wrote:

That's incorrect. A vehicle that is five times the length of an aircraft carrier will have FIVE times the carrier's volume. It will have 125 times its volume if it is five times the length AND five times its width AND five times its depth / height.

Obviously. But as Imperial ships are not long, thin needles, the math still applies.

No, it applies if it's used as I wrote. It's wildly wrong if you say "five times the length". Say five times the "size" if you must, though that's horribly vague, but id you say "five times the length" then you're the one implying Imperial ships are "long, thin needles". Don't complain when someone points out you made a mistake, it's a good thing for mistakes to be picked up.


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 Harriticus wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
The amount of Marines that can be stored in ships is pretty ridiculous. You could easily fit an entire Chapter inside a 1.3km ship.

Just men? Yeah, sure, but with equipment, training ranges, docking ports, storage, living area for the crew (not marines), space taken up for the on board weapons and ammo, and then finally and what I always mention in these questions, you can see the engines on the outside, you have no idea how far those things stretch back into the hull or how large the engine room is, we also have absolutely no idea how large a warp drive is, none at all and we don't know how large the gellar field system is either, all three of those things could take up a 1/3 or 2/3 of each ship for all we know.

Even with all of this. Cruise Ships, which are designed around luxury and recreation and thus aren't especially crowded for ship standards, hold multi-thousands of passengers in a comfortable setting with all of their supplies and activities easily. And these ships are far smaller than a Hunter Class Destroyer.

Now yes Marines are bigger physically, but on a Cruise Ship passengers are put into rather large cabins (just look at standard bunks on USN warships) so this negates the size issue. You could easily fit ~900 Marines onto a Hunter Class Destroyer and have enough room for a supplies, weapons, a chapel, a jogging track, and a small firing range. The only issue might be vehicles, but even if you upgrade to a Frigate (nevermind a Strike Cruiser) you could easily fit the full armoury into there as well.

What about the factory that manufactures bolter ammunition? What about the massive library containing all the requisite knowledge the chapter and the tech priests need? What about the stores that contain eighteen years worth of food supplies and grain for when you get stuck in the warp for ten subjective years or you're simply in a decades long campaign and cannot resupply. And "chapel" ? Many of these ships contain a cathedral that makes Notre Dame look like a small attic with a chair in the middle. I think you're just not getting it. Another poster was insightful when they said a better comparison was a submarine. Not only the vastly more equipment required to sustain life, but also the difficulty of repair and resupply. You simply cannot liken a spacecraft such as the Imperium's ones to a luxury cruise ship. I think you'll find that if your luxury cruise ship had to go decades without resupply, carry everything it needed plus facilities to repair and maintain itself during the voyage, support a crew that lived and bred and raised the next generation of crew and so on for centuries, that it might turn out rather larger than what it currently is - which is a vessel that dies a few months at a time with regular port calls to take on supplies, gets support from a home dock and replaces short-term crew easily. And that's without the monstrous inefficiencies and technical ignorance of the Imperium.

 Harriticus wrote:

People don't get how much stuff you cam cram on a ship. Ask the US Navy. Star Wars ship sizes vs. holding capacity are much more realistic.

I'm not particularly familiar with Star Wars other than its ships go pew-pew rather than the Imperium's boom-boom, but I would guess that its ships are built by people who know what they're doing rather than being millenia-old gothic heirlooms. Even the Imperium's functioning shipyards are just building according to ancient templates rather than designing ships according to logical need. Plus the technologies are different. As several have pointed out we don't know the requirements of things like Warp Engines or Geller fields or Void Shield Generators to cover the ship. I recall in Star Wars films even tiny one-person craft going to hyperspace. In WH40k, we've never seen anything smaller than half a kilometre able to enter the warp, I think. The technologies simply are not comparable. Plus again, different operational parameters - do ships in Star Wars often spend years travelling or worry about getting lost in the warp and arriving a quarter of a galaxy away from where they're supposed to be? And I seem to recall them being armed mainly with laser turrets or little forward facing guns, rather than actual cannon that fire shells bigger than a tank. I mean aside from just carrying ammo supplies for that sort of weaponry has no-one ever heard of Newton? Any idea the sort of kick those things generate? A star wars ship would go into a beserk spin everytime it fired just one macro cannon. You need mass to handle that. Not to mention the simple engineering requirements for a ships infrastructure to be able to take the strain.

Tje differing engineering requirements, operational parameters and simple understanding or lack of, of technology makes these non-like situations.