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 Alpharius wrote:
This is sad - condolences to all those who will be losing jobs.

I'll second that

It's quite sad watching this happening.


It's like watching a whale dying on the beach, not a friendly whale mind, maybe Moby Dick.


But still sad none the less.

 welshhoppo wrote:
It's quite sad watching this happening.


It's like watching a whale dying on the beach, not a friendly whale mind, maybe Moby Dick.


But still sad none the less.

This is depressing I have to say. Their cutting off their own limbs while still managing to shove DLC in our face. (besides the note of dark humor this is actually really sad)

 Da Boss wrote:
If they close the store, the independent game shop that is literally 2 minutes walk away will be happy. There are a few places selling GW products in the vicinity that will be pleased, I imagine.

Shame though- it's the nicest GW store I've ever been in, with a huge gaming space and some excellent displays, not to mention very friendly staff.

I wouldn't count on that for too long though-with how much GW is shrinking itself these days, most shops will enjoy the short burst of having no competition, but pretty soon they'll find they have a lot of stock for a dead game. They won't be able to make a profit on it, because who is going to pay full price for models for a game that'll never update? This, of course, follows the assumption that GW is finally on its last legs. I predict within a year, we'll get a message saying "Well, it's been a good run guys, but profits had been down for a while and we slashed where we could to keep giving you guys the best HHHobby you deserve, but I guess it wasn't enough and we couldn't keep up with the changing times. Good luck, and happy gaming." Prediction, of course, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a paraphrased version of that hit the 'net within a year.

 Kroothawk wrote:

agnosto wrote:Where's Kroot at? I figured he'd be in here in the first few posts.

I was at work, then reading the news, then rereading my thread "Is GW retreating from all non-English markets?" from September http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/550322.page and all the replys calling me crazy, out of my mind and a GW hater
I will make a more substantial reply when I have thought all this over.

It's not so much all "non-English markets", though - Since they've cut the US down to the bone, and are pulling out of New Zealand.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
If they close the store, the independent game shop that is literally 2 minutes walk away will be happy. There are a few places selling GW products in the vicinity that will be pleased, I imagine.

Shame though- it's the nicest GW store I've ever been in, with a huge gaming space and some excellent displays, not to mention very friendly staff.

I wouldn't count on that for too long though-with how much GW is shrinking itself these days, most shops will enjoy the short burst of having no competition, but pretty soon they'll find they have a lot of stock for a dead game. They won't be able to make a profit on it, because who is going to pay full price for models for a game that'll never update? This, of course, follows the assumption that GW is finally on its last legs. I predict within a year, we'll get a message saying "Well, it's been a good run guys, but profits had been down for a while and we slashed where we could to keep giving you guys the best HHHobby you deserve, but I guess it wasn't enough and we couldn't keep up with the changing times. Good luck, and happy gaming." Prediction, of course, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a paraphrased version of that hit the 'net within a year.

This would be the worst-case scenario. Dead game within a year.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

I wouldn't count on that for too long though-with how much GW is shrinking itself these days, most shops will enjoy the short burst of having no competition, but pretty soon they'll find they have a lot of stock for a dead game. They won't be able to make a profit on it, because who is going to pay full price for models for a game that'll never update?

With the draconian independent stockists rules and deliberate narrowing of type and amount of stock GW has been allowing them to sell, how many FLGSs are actually going to have all that much in the way defunct GW products to sell?

NTRabbit wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:

I wouldn't count on that for too long though-with how much GW is shrinking itself these days, most shops will enjoy the short burst of having no competition, but pretty soon they'll find they have a lot of stock for a dead game. They won't be able to make a profit on it, because who is going to pay full price for models for a game that'll never update?

With the draconian independent stockists rules and deliberate narrowing of type and amount of stock GW has been allowing them to sell, how many FLGSs are actually going to have all that much in the way defunct GW products to sell?

I imagine the closer we get to the end the more unreasonable GW will become with those rules and by the time the end comes there will be very few stores left still bothering with GW product. As it is many of them seem to already be reducing their GW stock in favour of other products.

 Azazelx wrote:
It's not so much all "non-English markets", though - Since they've cut the US down to the bone, and are pulling out of New Zealand.

To UK, these might be non-English speaking as well
Seriously: GW is actively and without good cause retreating to the UK market. That other countries can still read their products is a side effect they can't avoid.

Hopefully this all brings us closer to a takeover of GW. I'd cry for the loss of an independent GW and all that they ha've been, but the company many of us grew up with is long gone anyway...

I.just hope the eventual new owners don't mess with Forge World too much.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
If they close the store, the independent game shop that is literally 2 minutes walk away will be happy. There are a few places selling GW products in the vicinity that will be pleased, I imagine.

Shame though- it's the nicest GW store I've ever been in, with a huge gaming space and some excellent displays, not to mention very friendly staff.

I wouldn't count on that for too long though-with how much GW is shrinking itself these days, most shops will enjoy the short burst of having no competition, but pretty soon they'll find they have a lot of stock for a dead game. They won't be able to make a profit on it, because who is going to pay full price for models for a game that'll never update? This, of course, follows the assumption that GW is finally on its last legs. I predict within a year, we'll get a message saying "Well, it's been a good run guys, but profits had been down for a while and we slashed where we could to keep giving you guys the best HHHobby you deserve, but I guess it wasn't enough and we couldn't keep up with the changing times. Good luck, and happy gaming." Prediction, of course, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a paraphrased version of that hit the 'net within a year.

Won't happen.

GW are still making millions. If there's another revenue drop in July, the institutional investors will either oust Kirby, or the stock will continue to tank and there will be a hostile takeover. This is still very worthwhile IP. My main worry is that if investors take over, they will hike profits by moving all production to China, which will be bad news for the British (and Nottingham) economy.

Moving production to china doesn't save much on production costs by the time you factor in shipping and packaging, but does a bit on tooling. However, localised design and manufacture mean that tweaks can be made to the cnc files for manufacture of molds, or hand work done as required on the spot.

I don't think moving the manufacture is a particularly cost cutting thing to do as a whole.

I do think that ensuring the line is working constantly is a good idea; even down to providing the manufacturing link for competitors products (ie attempting to sideline renedra).

Similarly, the retail chain could be rejuvenated by carrying the products that GW is 'assisting', for example if GW pick up manufacturing for Warlord and Perry, stock those products in its retail division... Pretty certain there are ways to make the math work, GW just need to drop the arrogance.

I remember the GW store in Nashville Tennessee closing. They bloke who got them the LOTR Games was put in charge of the stores... Then said if they don't make X amount they're gone. If I remember the story correctly. Anyway, that store closed over-night, packed it all up, gone the next day. I was heart broken.

Sorry to hear about your stores.

winterdyne wrote:
Moving production to china doesn't save much on production costs by the time you factor in shipping and packaging, but does a bit on tooling.

Last time GW moved production to China, we got a flood of cheap high quality recasts from there. The flood is still rising.
Not to speak of the flood of leaked pics

Another reason to keep things local. I can see the decline accelerating though. GW aren't aware of anything beyond the profit line.

From everything I read online I get the impression that the German gaming market is increasing quite rapidly. Closing your localised HQ's in growing markets seems... well, stupid. Closing all the stores, criminally so.

I think we're going to see some more bizarre changes over the next couple of months. Fun times.

 fishy bob wrote:
GW Amsterdam closed shop today apparently.

I thought it was only the regional HQs that where shutting down?!

Is this part of the usual "close one here, open another over there" policy or is GW "cutting costs" by shutting down actual shops now?

winterdyne wrote:
Another reason to keep things local. I can see the decline accelerating though. GW aren't aware of anything beyond the profit line.

From everything I read online I get the impression that the German gaming market is increasing quite rapidly. Closing your localised HQ's in growing markets seems... well, stupid. Closing all the stores, criminally so.

I think we're going to see some more bizarre changes over the next couple of months. Fun times.

From the last few years i think it's quite obvious to say that long-term consequences were never a part of GW's decision-making.

All i can say is that my local gaming group has expanded from around 50 member to well over 90 in the last 12 Months. All the while i'm the only 40k player left from about 30 guys i used to play with once or twice per week. Closing down the Drakenburg and therefore the biggest gaming centre in germany altogether isn't going to improve things either. I don't know why GW hates our business, but i don't see any reason why we shouldn't take it elsewhere if we're not appreciated.

Were I Privateer Press, Mantic, etc. I think I'd be contacting local retailers in the area and offering some lovely starter deals to see this freshly abandoned field is properly tended....

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
It's starting to look like the end. The white knights have left us and the black knights are celebrating in the wake of their hideous predictions coming to fruition. Now GW either becomes someone else's property or is wiped out.

Not really, the figures at the moment show they are on target for about £18 million profit at year end, they have the cash available to to deal with the situation through investment, if they had not given £20 million or so a year away to shareholders over the last 5 years they would be even better of of course, but there you go.

Whether they will invest with Kirby at the helm is another matter of course, but I would suggest if end of year shows an even further retreat in turnover and profit (ie, less than around £15 million for the year) Kirby likely wont have a choice in the matter, he'll be gone by July.

What the status of GW australia?

NoggintheNog wrote:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
It's starting to look like the end. The white knights have left us and the black knights are celebrating in the wake of their hideous predictions coming to fruition. Now GW either becomes someone else's property or is wiped out.

Not really, the figures at the moment show they are on target for about £18 million profit at year end, they have the cash available to to deal with the situation through investment, if they had not given £20 million or so a year away to shareholders over the last 5 years they would be even better of of course, but there you go.

Whether they will invest with Kirby at the helm is another matter of course, but I would suggest if end of year shows an even further retreat in turnover and profit (ie, less than around £15 million for the year) Kirby likely wont have a choice in the matter, he'll be gone by July.

Exalted. Should stocks drop enough, i reckon a takeover is on the cards. The rumours I heard put hobbico as a front runner. I don't think it'll happen this year. Maybe next, if performance doesn't improve significantly,

Dropping stocks can be a sign for a takeover. In opposition to this, there is no big shareholder, all of them hold at most 1.5 more than Kirby.

NoggintheNog wrote:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
It's starting to look like the end. The white knights have left us and the black knights are celebrating in the wake of their hideous predictions coming to fruition. Now GW either becomes someone else's property or is wiped out.

Not really, the figures at the moment show they are on target for about £18 million profit at year end, they have the cash available to to deal with the situation through investment, if they had not given £20 million or so a year away to shareholders over the last 5 years they would be even better of of course, but there you go.

Whether they will invest with Kirby at the helm is another matter of course, but I would suggest if end of year shows an even further retreat in turnover and profit (ie, less than around £15 million for the year) Kirby likely wont have a choice in the matter, he'll be gone by July.

What investing can they do at this point though? The 'what would get you to buy GW again' thread in the discussions sub forum would suggest that there is a pretty strong consensus that dropping prices drastically would be absolutely necessary. The company has no goodwill left. Frankly a lot of people seem to hate them and now the numbers are showing that those people aren't irrelevant. They need to bring in a LOT of new blood and keep any more vets from leaving, nothing else can pull them out of this. If the current retail store model isn't pulling in the new people then what can GW do other than lower the cost of entry? Advertisement would help but if the stores worked as advertisement in the past then I doubt that it's a lack of people knowing about them that is holding the new blood back but rather they are walking into the stores and suffering sticker shock and quickly leaving. To keep vets leaving they need to be able to actually compete with the likes of Privateer Press, Mantic, Corvus Belli and Spartan Games in a capitalist market, which they can't do if they are offering average quality models at premium prices, not fostering any form of customer loyalty and relying entirely on an IP they are quickly watering down to push their product.

Even if they did make £18 million and invest every cent of it into trying to stop this nose dive they will still be bleeding sales and giving up market share to their competition.

 jonolikespie wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
It's starting to look like the end. The white knights have left us and the black knights are celebrating in the wake of their hideous predictions coming to fruition. Now GW either becomes someone else's property or is wiped out.

Not really, the figures at the moment show they are on target for about £18 million profit at year end, they have the cash available to to deal with the situation through investment, if they had not given £20 million or so a year away to shareholders over the last 5 years they would be even better of of course, but there you go.

Whether they will invest with Kirby at the helm is another matter of course, but I would suggest if end of year shows an even further retreat in turnover and profit (ie, less than around £15 million for the year) Kirby likely wont have a choice in the matter, he'll be gone by July.

What investing can they do at this point though? The 'what would get you to buy GW again' thread in the discussions sub forum would suggest that there is a pretty strong consensus that dropping prices drastically would be absolutely necessary. The company has no goodwill left. Frankly a lot of people seem to hate them and now the numbers are showing that those people aren't irrelevant. They need to bring in a LOT of new blood and keep any more vets from leaving, nothing else can pull them out of this. If the current retail store model isn't pulling in the new people then what can GW do other than lower the cost of entry? Advertisement would help but if the stores worked as advertisement in the past then I doubt that it's a lack of people knowing about them that is holding the new blood back but rather they are walking into the stores and suffering sticker shock and quickly leaving. To keep vets leaving they need to be able to actually compete with the likes of Privateer Press, Mantic, Corvus Belli and Spartan Games in a capitalist market, which they can't do if they are offering average quality models at premium prices, not fostering any form of customer loyalty and relying entirely on an IP they are quickly watering down to push their product.

Even if they did make £18 million and invest every cent of it into trying to stop this nose dive they will still be bleeding sales and giving up market share to their competition.

There is quite a lot they can do, I did mention it in the initial thread about the report, but they initially need to expand their player base. Looking at the market the biggest expansion is in low model count quick play games, that would refelct society today with long work hours and squeezed discretionary spending.
The big kickstarters have been deadzone for a million or so , heroquest , although ended for other issues, raised more than that in 2 days. The market for those games is there.

Guess what. GW already made both. A reboot of the lower cost entry games, using the same models as the bigger games (which is vitally important) could attract a cash injection to boost revenue, and not only attract new customers who perhaps do not want to invest the necessary for a 40K or Fantasy army, but would buy a £50 boxed game and then likely spend £20 a month or so after on extras. You will also, if you make sure the miniatures translate directly from one game into the larger, create a gateway into the core product and it achieves a seemed lowering of entry (by spreading out the buy in over months) without damaging profitability by reducing prices.

You see , its not the price thats the issue, its the value. £35 for a unit of plastic minis isnt good value when they represent a quarter of a single unit in an army of 3 or 4 such units. £35 for 10 minis that are your entire force? That has a much greater perceived value.

That is why Infinity sells boxes of 5 or 6 minis for £27 and gets no grief, because its £27 for an entire army, not 6 figures.

What's the situation in Australia? Is Oz operated by GW UK, too? or is it (improbably) still regionally managed?

I kinda wish GW would stop cutting down on staff and the like. Sometimes you look at the staff in a one-manner and you just get this sense that working for this hellhole has ruined the hobby for them.

I'll leave this as an open letter.

GW, if someone important is reading this, you don't need to do sales or whatever, you just need to alleviate the strain on your employees. When your main recruiting scheme is to put someone on a waiting list and tell them "when one dies of exhaustion, you can take their place", you're not encouraging employee retention, and that impacts on sales just as high prices.

When one goes to a familiar shop, it's nice to be greeted by a familiar shopkeep. One who knows your name and that you know the name of. If they burn out - not only out of the job, but the hobby too, after 6 months, your employee can't build the reputation among his customer base to get good results.

It's a damn shame, GW. Retail in something you love can be potentially very rewarding, but you manage to suck that out of it until your employees are less than corpses, how can you ever hope for raised sales again?

If german GW are getting closed someone on their site didn't get the memo... dumb doomsayers http://careers.games-workshop.com/2014/01/15/continental-retail-manager-dusseldorf-germany/

You know, you could have provided that information without calling everyone in the thread dumb.

This also doesn't say much about the status of the large store. Will it remain as is, or will it be downsized into a more traditional store?

Thats a management position for the whole of continental Europe. GW Europe, as opposed to GW Germany.

Germany is a reasonable centre geographically speaking, but logistically, that's a really tough job they're pushing out there.

Oh btw they said they where closing the head office's long ago when they put out their reports

Changes to operating structure
We have just announced a major re-organisation of our sales businesses to allow management by
channel: retail, trade and direct. Our retail businesses will be consolidated under a single Retail Sales
Manager for each of our key geographic areas – UK, Europe and North America. Trade sales will be
consolidated into a global business, operating from Lenton, Nottingham.

winterdyne wrote:
Thats a management position for the whole of continental Europe. GW Europe, as opposed to GW Germany.

Germany is a reasonable centre geographically speaking, but logistically, that's a really tough job they're pushing out there.

I'd say impossible, rather than tough.

One person cannot possibly micromanage the total stores across the entire continent, and yet without regional management and with store managers being low wage employees largely without the experience to run without management oversight there is no one else to do it.