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judgedoug wrote: "This is a terrible situation for everyone involved and the result may be that both our companies go down because of it. "
I smell Defiance setting up a reason to fold and not fulfill their own KS obligations... and then a few months later a new Tony Reidy company starts up with big promises and a "roadmap" of new releases
Shut up shop while they still have a scapegoat to blame their woes on? Surely not
Seems like they have exactly what your looking for for figures for the Torn Armor game. Add in a few of those, and you could combine the Cairn stuff into an additional sourcebook.
Red Riding Hood and a group of combat mice? I'd buy a few of those, even for some of my other stuff. Fanticide comes to mind.
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
At the end of the day. fail or succeed, Torn Armor and all Kickstarters have the right to do so under their own merits.
The core of this issue is that Torn Armor gave a large sum of money to Defiance Games to preform services, services that by their own admission were not rendered. Now, Defiance Games is unwilling or unable to return the unspent portion to the Kickstarter creator, holding the Torn Armor Kickstarter project hostage robbing them of any chance to succeed or fail on their own merits.
Anything beyond this is simply a diversion and misdirection.
Any resemblance of this post to written English is purely coincidental.
At the end of the day. fail or succeed, Torn Armor and all Kickstarters have the right to do so under their own merits.
The core of this issue is that Torn Armor gave a large sum of money to Defiance Games to preform services, services that by their own admission were not rendered. Now, Defiance Games is unwilling or unable to return the unspent portion to the Kickstarter creator, holding the Torn Armor Kickstarter project hostage robbing them of any chance to succeed or fail on their own merits.
Anything beyond this is simply a diversion and misdirection.
Quoting for truth.
Bam, said the lady!
DR:70S+GM++B+I+Pw40k09/f++D++A(WTF)/hWD153R+++T(S)DM++++ Dakka, what is good in life?
To crush other websites,
See their user posts driven before you,
And hear the lamentation of the newbs.
-Frazzled-10/22/09
The files are difficult to print, as they have undercut issues and so forth. Nicolas Genovese spent 40 hours on them and did not charge any money, but the models will need alot of work to make them viable.
DG kept the money, 25k.
They do not have any production facilities, nor a printer. They dont have any plastic injection machines, they dont have a resin casting workshop, they dont have metal spinning equipement. They outscource all thier work, and do not paythe manufacturers (see the whole Proxie models vs DG debacle!)
SO they spent the 25k on what exactly? Surely TA can get a costs breakdown from DG on how the money was spent?
This boggles the mind. How do you hand over 25k? How did DG not do anything? How come they are keeping the money? Shocking, really shocking.
Kingsley wrote:I think Defiance Games might be the only company that Dakka loves to hate even more than GW.
aka_mythos wrote:Defiance Games actually sounds evil, with ill intent. GW is just heartlessly capitalistic.
RatBot wrote:Yeah, whatever our quarrels might be with Games Workshop, at least, as far as we know, they've never actually stolen money.
Yeah, the hate towards Defiance is justified. Admittedly, I'm personal friends with the Rust Forge guys, and I went to school with their lawyer, so I have a biased view, but Defiance is a toxic company. Poorly run, financially insolvent, and completely unwilling to accept that they are the cause of their own failure. They are like the Michael Scott Paper Company, only not charming.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/27 14:02:25
The files are difficult to print, as they have undercut issues and so forth. Nicolas Genovese spent 40 hours on them and did not charge any money, but the models will need alot of work to make them viable.
DG kept the money, 25k.
They do not have any production facilities, nor a printer. They dont have any plastic injection machines, they dont have a resin casting workshop, they dont have metal spinning equipement. They outscource all thier work, and do not paythe manufacturers (see the whole Proxie models vs DG debacle!)
SO they spent the 25k on what exactly? Surely TA can get a costs breakdown from DG on how the money was spent?
This boggles the mind. How do you hand over 25k? How did DG not do anything? How come they are keeping the money? Shocking, really shocking.
To be fair, the Proxie models thing wasn't outsourced work - it was for reselling of models that they never paid for.
Iirc they do cast some resin in house.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Kingsley wrote:I think Defiance Games might be the only company that Dakka loves to hate even more than GW.
aka_mythos wrote:Defiance Games actually sounds evil, with ill intent. GW is just heartlessly capitalistic.
RatBot wrote:Yeah, whatever our quarrels might be with Games Workshop, at least, as far as we know, they've never actually stolen money.
Yeah, the hate towards Defiance is justified. Admittedly, I'm personal friends with the Rust Forge guys, and I went to school with their lawyer, so I have a biased view, but they're a toxic company. Poorly run, financially insolvent, and completely unwilling to accept that they are the cause of their own failure. They are like the Michael Scott Paper Company, only not charming.
You may want to adjust your punctuation, reads like your calling your friends company toxic
LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13
I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14
The files are difficult to print, as they have undercut issues and so forth. Nicolas Genovese spent 40 hours on them and did not charge any money, but the models will need alot of work to make them viable.
DG kept the money, 25k.
They do not have any production facilities, nor a printer. They dont have any plastic injection machines, they dont have a resin casting workshop, they dont have metal spinning equipement. They outscource all thier work, and do not paythe manufacturers (see the whole Proxie models vs DG debacle!)
SO they spent the 25k on what exactly? Surely TA can get a costs breakdown from DG on how the money was spent?
This boggles the mind. How do you hand over 25k? How did DG not do anything? How come they are keeping the money? Shocking, really shocking.
Well, Defiance openly said that they were willing to make payments, so that totally makes them a stand up company, Right?
If I were the geniuses behind Torn Armor, I would sue Defiance for breach of contract and damages. Then I would press the DA in the county that they signed the contract in to pursue business ethics violation charges, anything else that might stick. Getting loans after felony charges is much harder...
Seems like they have exactly what your looking for for figures for the Torn Armor game. Add in a few of those, and you could combine the Cairn stuff into an additional sourcebook.
Red Riding Hood and a group of combat mice? I'd buy a few of those, even for some of my other stuff. Fanticide comes to mind.
Alyssa Faden works for a company called SoulJar. Oficially SoulJar picked up Cairn and have claimed to still be working on delivering the ruleset (and not the other stretch goals or rewards) to backers. There really haven't been much in the way of updates and supposedly when the IP was trasnfered from Castle Nystul it was pretty close to 100% complete and ready to go to print... SoulJar has since launched two KS projects. Dice Crawl and a deck of playing cards using the Cairn art. The deck of playing cards didn't fund. Dice Crawl hasn't had a substantial update since it funded early this month. Alyssa on her own launched Torn Armor seperate from SoulJar although their is substantial overlap between Torn Armor and the SoulJar crew... I honestly don't know what to make of the companies/people I listed anymore. I think it's fairly safe to put them as a group on my Do Not Support on KS List.
I've copied over the Risk and Challenges section from the Torn Armor KS, its work a read.
Spoiler:
First and foremost allow us to reassure you that the Torn Armor team has been compiled from industry experts with a proven track record of delivering award winning products on time. You are not investing in a vaporware game with a team that is about to figure out how things work once the kickstarter ends. Believe me, you're in good hands.
Secondly, Alyssa Faden has 7 years as a Production Director delivering dozens of half a million dollar projects all at the same time. With 7 years in the role and hundreds of projects delivered, not one was past schedule. Juggling multiple resources, handling risks, setting milestones, understanding if a project is on schedule - or behind schedule - months ahead of time is exactly what she is trained to do. When you back the Torn Armor kickstarter, you hire this expertise.
Alyssa Faden herself has invested significantly into Torn Armor. This gives her a personal and deep-level drive to make this happen: for you and for her.
Of course there are risks to any endeavor and foolhardy would be the person to say otherwise. We believe that we have thoroughly mapped out the project plan, identified key milestones, and all avenues of potential challenge. Through judicious use of back-up plans, and in some instances back-ups to those backups, we feel confident that we have done everything humanly possible to deliver a quality product on time.
One of the earliest challenges would be that of sculpting. We have employed two of the industries finest sculptors to deliver the finest miniatures possible. But things can happen, and maybe one or both of them delivers late. Production on the game cannot start until that have all of the miniatures for it!
So we at Torn Armor have created the entire miniature line in a set of high quality 3D models. We already have these. If the sculptors hit a snafu, we are ready with a solution.
Another challenge could be the production company, which is why we have taken out all of the guesswork and we're going with the same guy who brought you DUST. And let's face it, this is not their first rodeo.
Plus the delivery timeframe that they told us - we padded that. We gave ourselves a little bit of leeway here. Worst case scenario? They deliver after they said they would ... and it's exactly when we promised it would be.
But let's say something disastrous struck and the production company was suddenly no longer available to us. That's okay, because we have already negotiated with THREE other companies, all capable of delivering a top-notch game with quality components. Now that's what you call redundancy.
As much as I wish the game success, vaporware is the way of the walk.
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
Torn Armor will LIVE!
10 comments Like 9 likes
Backers,
So it has been a tough week and I wanted to see what developed before I posted an update.
Before I get into that I want to thank YOU.
We had tremendous support from so, so many people, gaming companies, and miniature manufacturers. I can honestly say that I was blown away by it all. But more importantly this support gave us options for moving forward and this will be the subject for tonight's update.
Not only that, but we received support from companies who simply wished to chip-in:
Centerstage Miniatures will be running a promotion of Torn World miniatures, with every dime being donated to Torn Armor.
Fat Dragon have offered a free map set for EVERY BACKER ($15 value). We'll post details on this now that things have settled down a little.
We've even had companies approach us about producing our miniatures at vastly reduced prices. In short the support we have received has been the embodiment of the very spirit of our gaming world and it humbles me.
But - and perhaps this will be an odd thing to say - I also wish to thank the backers who "gave me a hard time." It's not just about the hugs and the well-wishes, but it's equally about the passion behind those who shout out in anger, for without that passion we would have been missing something from our Kickstarter and this game. We want our backers to be passionate and we realize that this passion will sometimes be directed _against_ us, but without passion for gaming what else is there?
So thank you backers and supporters in general: the well wishes AND the demands for improvement have been equally valid and appreciated.
--- --- ---
So What Happens Now?
Torn Armor happens, that's what.
We got a kick in the throat from Defiance Games I will not lie to you, but we regrouped, thought things through, looked at the remaining funds, work done, and the growing community support and we formulated a plan. This plan - I believe - is the way forward.
1) We're going to split the miniatures away from the game as "deliverables." The miniatures have had their own challenges and they've held everything up, but at the end of the day there's no need for that. I originally planned to ship everything in one batch per backer, but in the light of recent events I'm not going to stick with this.
We split the game, rules, maps, unit cards, dice, Reaper dragon, etc into "Phase 1." We'll be including card miniatures so you can get down and play immediately, but ultimately the important thing is that we get the game printed and delivered to you asap. Nothing holds this back.
2) While simultaneously we investigate the offers from around the world for supporting our miniatures. And we do have options. And we do intend to deliver on them.
But the miniatures are a different timeline and they have their own challenges, so instead of bundling them up in the box we're going to make them "optional boxed expansion sets," and the majority of our backers will get them!
Now .. timelines:
In this update I cannot talk about specific timelines; I have to be more general. No, I am not hiding anything from you, but there are some realities of manufacturing here:
- We are refreshing our printer quotes/timelines and as soon as I have these in and locked down I will share with you. My *gut* says 3 months, but hold on that until we get the actual quotes in. We're prioritizing this and it is extremely important to us.
- For the miniatures ... things are going to vary depending on who we use and how we go about it. I can't even speculate at this point, but I am surrounded by people wanting to make them happen. I need a little time to nail down the options. Once we have that nailed down the timeline will shape itself and we will have that particular conversation.
In either instance you guys ARE getting your miniatures, okay? I know you are financially invested and I respect that. But more than that, you put some trust in us ... some of you even got out there and helped spread the word ... and I am *NOT* going to leave you hanging like that. We will deliver.
So ... Defiance?
Defiance have indicated twice a desire to offer forth a plan to reimburse our money and told me twice when they would make those offers. They did not meet either one.
We are now in legal proceedings and our attorney will be negotiating for us.
Regardless of ... them ... we're proceeding with Torn Armor, because - frankly - you have to do a whole lot more than lie to me and take my money to stop me delivering on a dream.
Defiance have indicated twice a desire to offer forth a plan to reimburse our money and told me twice when they would make those offers. They did not meet either one.
We are now in legal proceedings and our attorney will be negotiating for us.
Regardless of ... them ... we're proceeding with Torn Armor, because - frankly - you have to do a whole lot more than lie to me and take my money to stop me delivering on a dream.
~ Natalya
Mmmm, do you smell what Defiance is cooking? To me, it smells like another Kickstarter.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Plus the game is moving ahead its like a win, win, win
LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13
I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14
Kilkrazy wrote: I doubt that Defiance Games has any cash assets, which is what their creditors need.
Hopefully Tony was as incompetent at setting up the business as he was at running it and they can grab his house, car, and anything left in any personal bank accounts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/29 11:51:21
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
If they do manage to sue Defiance Games, then none of the DGKS backers will receive anything.
Of course, the odds of anyone who backed DG receiving anything was quite small in the first place and quite frankly I'm shocked that they were able to raise as much as they did despite everyone on the entire internet screaming "do not back this project" at the time.
Tony Reidy will most likely shut down the company, leave the KS unfulfilled and claim "sorry, but the evil Torn Armor bankrupted us with expensive legal costs it wasn't our fault that they made unreasonable demands that forced us to shut down the hard work and excellent progress we were making on the models for you".. and, as usual, a certain majority of people will believe that line and then when he starts another company a few months later there will be support and people putting down blind pre-orders.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/01/29 12:49:22
Plus the game is moving ahead its like a win, win, win
Agreed, that's the update I wanted to see earlier. Not "Sorry guys, 70K's gone, it didn't work out!" that some campaigns try to pull. Excellent, excellent update!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
scarletsquig wrote: If they do manage to sue Defiance Games, then none of the DGKS backers will receive anything.
Let's be honest- they won't, anyway. DG already has enough excuses lined up to be sure of that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/29 12:45:36
Defiance have indicated twice a desire to offer forth a plan to reimburse our money and told me twice when they would make those offers. They did not meet either one.
We are now in legal proceedings and our attorney will be negotiating for us.
Regardless of ... them ... we're proceeding with Torn Armor, because - frankly - you have to do a whole lot more than lie to me and take my money to stop me delivering on a dream.
~ Natalya
Mmmm, do you smell what Defiance is cooking? To me, it smells like another Kickstarter.
Thanks for the laugh this morning.
Would not be surprised at all if another kickstarter appeared. Maybe one for the wheeled vehicle they were pushing which magically "disappeared" from the site after initial sculpts were released.
You know what, this could be even better than what I thought last night. IF they manage to scuttle defiance games they could possibly ask for the designs and IP that defiance has shown as well as masters and anything else "in development". That means Torn could bring out the egg suits everyone was wanting as well as all those other sets. Maybe that's why they've received so much help from other miniature companies. If you win give us these designs and we will call it even sort of thing.
Then when everything gets produced in two years(still quicker than defiance would have delivered), Tony can rage about how he was usurped again by those evil Americans and their legal teams
LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13
I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14
