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Straight-up field battle, with both using all the resources their Chapter has available (No Guard or navy support, no outside intervention whatsoever.)

Assume a flat grassland for battlefield, with both Chapters arriving simultaneously and ready for battle.

Brutality VS brutality, who wins?

Khorne wins. He's just happy that there will be bloodshed.

The Minotaurs. Better equipment and they've put other chapters to the sword before.

Minotaurs have all ready recieved outside intervention by being gifted with better gear from HLOT.

Space Sharks are a fragmented chapter. They additionally use outdated equipment due to thier method of war and essentially how they are deployed in defense of the imperium, which is to say, far away from the beacon raiding cultures who can't defend themselves.
Minotaurs have new equipment.
Space Sharks brutality is cold calculated murder, that becomes butchery.
Minotaurs brutality is a rampaging rage filled berserker.
Space sharks attack at night from the rear and retreat, bleeding the foe until it can not defend it self, utilizing terror attacks to demoralize. Essentially good guy night lords.
Minotaurs fist you in the face and [MOD EDIT - You've got to find a less offensive way of expressing yourself. - Alpharius]

Minotaurs win if both chapters show up to duke it out like a boxing match, because the space sharks have neither the numbers or equipment to win such a war.

 ADustyMan wrote:
Space Sharks are a fragmented chapter. They additionally use outdated equipment due to thier method of war and essentially how they are deployed in defense of the imperium, which is to say, far away from the beacon raiding cultures who can't defend themselves.
Minotaurs have new equipment.
Space Sharks brutality is cold calculated murder, that becomes butchery.
Minotaurs brutality is a rampaging rage filled berserker.
Space sharks attack at night from the rear and retreat, bleeding the foe until it can not defend it self, utilizing terror attacks to demoralize. Essentially good guy night lords.
Minotaurs fist you in the face and [MOD EDIT - No.]

Minotaurs win if both chapters show up to duke it out like a boxing match, because the space sharks have neither the numbers or equipment to win such a war.

Pretty much this. The main key advantages of the Minotaurs are experience with fighting chapters, Tartaros Terminator Armor, and IIRC they have more powerful fleets than normal thanks to the HLOT.

Minotaurs.

Minotaurs have Fearless in their chapter tactics, which makes the Space Shark's fear in their own chapter tactics rather useless. Space Sharks also rely on stealth a bit, which they can't really do in an open field. And then there's the fact that Minotaurs are specialized vs fighting normal astartes in the first place (reflected in the Table Top as preferred enemy: space marines. Not even Chaos Space marines, lol)

By both a tabletop and presumably fluff ruleset, such a battle would be heavily in the Minotaurs' favor.

My initial thought was Minotaurs, but after checking the details I think the Space Sharks might have an edge.
The Minotaurs are noted for their lack of subtlety when it comes to tactics, they specialise in massed formations steamrollering over the enemy in bloody battles of (mutual) attrition.
The Space Sharks are noted for avoiding battles of attrition, preferring well planned hit and run aerial strikes against known weak points - the chapter is specifically noted however as being 'equally effective' to the Minotaur's unthinking full frontal charges.
The op said:
1) Straight-up field battle
2) both using all the resources their Chapter has available
3) Assume a flat grassland for battlefield
I just don't see this being fought on a football field. BOTH Chapters are noted as possessing sizeable arsenals of armoured vehicles and siege equipment - even if the Space Sharks prefer not to use it - there's no way criteria 2 can be fulfilled realistically without this battle being fought on a 10-20km wide front with rear echelons behind the horizon from the front lines. We're talking company and demi-company sized formations flanked by armoured squadrons - the Minotaurs advancing steadily and unflinchingly whilst suffering constant aerial assaults against their weakest points.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Minotaurs have Fearless in their chapter tactics, which makes the Space Shark's fear in their own chapter tactics rather useless. Space Sharks also rely on stealth a bit, which they can't really do in an open field. And then there's the fact that Minotaurs are specialized vs fighting normal astartes in the first place.

Minotaurs have never had Fearless in their Chapter Tactics, Asterion Moloch (both then and now) grants a single squad that he joins Fearless but nothing more. The original (IA10) rules gave all Minotaurs Preferred: Enemy (Marines) but had no morale related rules at all, the new (pdf update) strips* them of the Preferred Enemy but makes them resistent to pinning and shooting related morale - which doesn't apply to Fear. Moloch does 'now*' allow his Primary Detachment to Preferred: Enemy, but we're talking maybe a quarter of the chapter at most.

* actually it was always tied to Moloch, since the Ivanus Enkomi didn't grant Chapter Tactics.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Straight-up field battle, with both using all the resources their Chapter has available (No Guard or navy support, no outside intervention whatsoever.)

Assume a flat grassland for battlefield, with both Chapters arriving simultaneously and ready for battle.

Brutality VS brutality, who wins?

This is a little like saying 'Harlem Globetrotters versus the Denver Broncos, in a football stadium, wearing football pads, playing football. Who wins?' The Minotaurs crush the Space Sharks, because the set-up is their ideal situation.

In an actual test of brutality on brutality (who can be the first to cow the populace of a rebellious world into submission through unmitigated violence, say) then I think the Space Sharks win.

It'd be close. On the battlefield minotaurs in the game i would say the sharks could gain a defensive victory but as its a grassland/wasteland scenario it'd be close. Being an mma fighter i know how bad it is hitting a brickwall with pure aggression, this would be the only saving grace of the sharkies

Space Sharks. 'Cuz there's no school like the old school and ever since Night Lords went traitor, they're the fething headmaster.

On a serious note though, this set up is heavily in favor of the Minotaurs (as stated by other fellow dakkadakkatites). I'd give this one to the Minotaurs. Unless Tyberos managed to teleport next to Moloch in the dead of the night and punch him... Now that makes me wonder who has the more epic brofist, Calgar or Tyberos? (Okay, so I know Kharn wins, but who would take second?)

 King Pariah wrote:
Space Sharks. 'Cuz there's no school like the old school and ever since Night Lords went traitor, they're the fething headmaster.

On a serious note though, this set up is heavily in favor of the Minotaurs (as stated by other fellow dakkadakkatites). I'd give this one to the Minotaurs. Unless Tyberos managed to teleport next to Moloch in the dead of the night and punch him... Now that makes me wonder who has the more epic brofist, Calgar or Tyberos? (Okay, so I know Kharn wins, but who would take second?)

Calgar's fist, at the end of the day, is just a bigger fist.

Tyberos' fist has ginormous blade spikes and chainsaw palms.

I'm giving it to Tyberos here.

But the Carcharadons don't really exist. They are nothing but legend.

If we're talking tabletop rules, I'd probably say Carcharadons. Not really a fan of the Minotaur rules. Fluff wise, the Minotaurs are officially sanctioned by the High Lords of Terra to commit sanctioned fratricide against rogue-but-not-Chaos-yet chapters and are geared to do it.

 SRSFACE wrote:
But the Carcharadons don't really exist. They are nothing but legend.

If we're talking tabletop rules, I'd probably say Carcharadons. Not really a fan of the Minotaur rules. Fluff wise, the Minotaurs are officially sanctioned by the High Lords of Terra to commit sanctioned fratricide against rogue-but-not-Chaos-yet chapters and are geared to do it.

If they have Moloc, the Minotaurs win completely since they get PE. Gamewise.

Marine killing is what the minotaurs do so my vote goes to them, and table top rule wise they posses Atsknf so they already auto ignore fear, but this is fluff wise we are talking right?

Fluff wise they have all the best and new toys as per the high lords, they have specific marine killing doctrine (not standard astartes training )

And for the most part if they adhere to the codex astartes, then it's no secret the hit and run maneuvers employed by the other, and if fear and attrition is their "thing", fear by all fluff reasons is a non factor to marines and attrition is what all marine vs marine conflicts come down to really ( the whole no fear part. )

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:


If they have Moloc, the Minotaurs win completely since they get PE. Gamewise.

Only models that have chapter tactics benefit from that, so the only units it'd REALLY matter with are Sternguard, Devs and Centurion Devs. Is a pretty sizable boon, though.

Tyberos also gives, at least his unit, preferred enemy (infantry) so unless he's shot to death first, he'll and his squad will be total wrecking balls to any marines.

It would make an interesting fight, though. But, you're probably right. I had forgotten about what a huge forge multiplier Moloc is against other marines. They'd dominate the shooting phase which we all know is the most important phase in 6E.

Would still probably come down to whoever's tanks and stormtalons performed best.

Minotaurs win, this is what they do.

 ADustyMan wrote:
Space Sharks are a fragmented chapter. They additionally use outdated equipment due to thier method of war and essentially how they are deployed in defense of the imperium, which is to say, far away from the beacon raiding cultures who can't defend themselves.
Minotaurs have new equipment.
Space Sharks brutality is cold calculated murder, that becomes butchery.
Minotaurs brutality is a rampaging rage filled berserker.
Space sharks attack at night from the rear and retreat, bleeding the foe until it can not defend it self, utilizing terror attacks to demoralize. Essentially good guy night lords.
Minotaurs fist you in the face and let you watch them fist your mom after.

Minotaurs win if both chapters show up to duke it out like a boxing match, because the space sharks have neither the numbers or equipment to win such a war.

That's why they don't. Over the battlefield will be warships, if all of the Chapter's equipment is brought to bear as the author says, which includes the Nicor. From the 40k wiki "Its armour is comparable to a Battle Barge but the ship sports far stronger Void Shields, rivalling those of an Imperial Navy Battleship. The ship packs a solid long-range macrobattery broadside, with a forward array of torpedo tubes able to launch conventional plasma torpedoes or the boarding torpedoes favoured by many Space Marines in naval actions. In place of the more common Bombardment Cannons, the archivist-savants found the Nicor appeared to be armed with an unorthodox weapon-system known as a “Plasma Destructor.” Two Tech-priests spent three months in supplication and prayer amongst the Cogitator stacks of fleet archives and determined that such a weapon, though short-ranged, could exceed the sheer destructive power of a Bombardment Cannon’s magma-bombs. Finally, the Nicor’s plans indicated the ship traded traditional Thunderhawk hangar space for a vast array of mass teleporter systems. If the blueprints of these archeotech devices are accurate, these teleporters would not only be able to teleport whole Battle Companies at once, they could do so with a degree of accuracy almost unheard of. In summary, the Nicor is a perfect flagship for the Carcharodons; fast, well-armoured, and utterly lethal in close quarters. Such a ship, if it still sails under their command, could easily prove a match for the heaviest space fortifications the Imperium has to offer. "

So, here's how this thing goes down. The Nicor has a teleporter that can move a full company at once. While the Minotaurs have lots of Terminator armor, and a lot of decent ships, I doubt they're going to have a full company of them on one ship. So, Tyberos teleports himself and 100 of his best brothers onto the Minotaur flagship and kills Moloc in a challenge (because relic blades do not cut the mustard against terminator armor (4 Str 8 AP 2 hits with against a +3 invuln save will make short work of 3 Str 6 AP 3 hits against a +2 armor save). With the Minotaur crew dead, the ship will swing into action against the other Minotaur vessels, allowing the Nicor to close range and finish off the remaining vessels- which will soon be dealing with boarding torpedoes launched from the freshly-captured ship in their midst. It would be a slaughter.

Were such a fight to occur on the ground, Moloc would still find his command unit dealing with 100 Carcharadons teleported within arms reach of himself and his personal guard, challenged, and killed. Leaderless, the Minotaurs would fight bravely but lose. It certainly doesn't hurt that other Marines are completely unable to intercept whatever means of communication sharks use while fighting- they're notorious for not uttering a sound while fighting very well-coordinated battles.

The Minotaurs have a lot going for them, but it wouldn't be enough. The sharks are so brutal that other Space Marines have quit rather than have to fight on the SAME side as them.

EmpNortonII wrote:


So, here's how this thing goes down. The Nicor has a teleporter that can move a full company at once. While the Minotaurs have lots of Terminator armor, and a lot of decent ships, I doubt they're going to have a full company of them on one ship. So, Tyberos teleports himself and 100 of his best brothers onto the Minotaur flagship and kills Moloc in a challenge (because relic blades do not cut the mustard against terminator armor (4 Str 8 AP 2 hits with against a +3 invuln save will make short work of 3 Str 6 AP 3 hits against a +2 armor save). With the Minotaur crew dead, the ship will swing into action against the other Minotaur vessels, allowing the Nicor to close range and finish off the remaining vessels- which will soon be dealing with boarding torpedoes launched from the freshly-captured ship in their midst. It would be a slaughter.

Were such a fight to occur on the ground, Moloc would still find his command unit dealing with 100 Carcharadons teleported within arms reach of himself and his personal guard, challenged, and killed. Leaderless, the Minotaurs would fight bravely but lose. It certainly doesn't hurt that other Marines are completely unable to intercept whatever means of communication sharks use while fighting- they're notorious for not uttering a sound while fighting very well-coordinated battles.

The Minotaurs have a lot going for them, but it wouldn't be enough. The sharks are so brutal that other Space Marines have quit rather than have to fight on the SAME side as them.

You make it sound as if the Minotaurs just sit and wait to be destroyed.

The Minotaurs travel everywhere as a full chapter, they won't teleport a company aboard your fancypants warship, they'll all come aboard, and while we're extrapolating tabletop rules into this fantasy situation, every single Minotaur is rerolling all 1's thanks to Moloc being around.

That Nicor will look pretty swanky next to all the other warships the Minotaurs have wrested from their previous Astartes owners.

But my unsupportable extrapolation is much better than yours, so I am now to be crowned King of t eh Awesome and you must all now dance for me!

MarsNZ wrote:

EmpNortonII wrote:


So, here's how this thing goes down. The Nicor has a teleporter that can move a full company at once. While the Minotaurs have lots of Terminator armor, and a lot of decent ships, I doubt they're going to have a full company of them on one ship. So, Tyberos teleports himself and 100 of his best brothers onto the Minotaur flagship and kills Moloc in a challenge (because relic blades do not cut the mustard against terminator armor (4 Str 8 AP 2 hits with against a +3 invuln save will make short work of 3 Str 6 AP 3 hits against a +2 armor save). With the Minotaur crew dead, the ship will swing into action against the other Minotaur vessels, allowing the Nicor to close range and finish off the remaining vessels- which will soon be dealing with boarding torpedoes launched from the freshly-captured ship in their midst. It would be a slaughter.

Were such a fight to occur on the ground, Moloc would still find his command unit dealing with 100 Carcharadons teleported within arms reach of himself and his personal guard, challenged, and killed. Leaderless, the Minotaurs would fight bravely but lose. It certainly doesn't hurt that other Marines are completely unable to intercept whatever means of communication sharks use while fighting- they're notorious for not uttering a sound while fighting very well-coordinated battles.

The Minotaurs have a lot going for them, but it wouldn't be enough. The sharks are so brutal that other Space Marines have quit rather than have to fight on the SAME side as them.

You make it sound as if the Minotaurs just sit and wait to be destroyed.

The Minotaurs travel everywhere as a full chapter, they won't teleport a company aboard your fancypants warship, they'll all come aboard, and while we're extrapolating tabletop rules into this fantasy situation, every single Minotaur is rerolling all 1's thanks to Moloc being around.

That Nicor will look pretty swanky next to all the other warships the Minotaurs have wrested from their previous Astartes owners.

I make it sound as if the Carcharadons can teleport from outside of weapons range of the Minotaur fleet... which I'm pretty sure they can.

The Minotaurs, at the time their whole fleet entered the Orphean War, had three battle barges. Two were destroyed. They also had 8 strike cruisers- very respectable for a Space Marine Chapter. However, they might be down to just one barge at the time of this theoretical conflict. We know that the Carcharodons operate a fleet large enough to give the Imperial Navy some pause, given how tense interactions between them and the Loyalists were when they showed up during the Badab War and large enough to use a strike cruiser as an emissary. Sadly, ship numbers aren't given in IA... but we do know that the Nicor would have no trouble soloing a battle barge without using boarders.

I think you misread what I typed. The Minotaurs aren't teleporting anywhere. The sharks are- en masse. While the sharks are perfectly capable of moving a full company of terminators onto a ship instantly via the Nicor's teleporter, it is highly unlikely that the Minotaurs would keep a similar number on a single ship, given 1) the number of ships in their fleet and 2) the risk of having one's entire first company destroyed outright by a lucky shot from a warship. The sharks have no such worry, since they can move an entire company at once. So, here's the low-down.

A conflict between the two would start outside of weapons range. The Minotaurs would not be able to board, of course- their teleporters are not accurate enough to hit a moving ship... that's why they need Thunderhawks and boarding torpedoes, which have a limited range. The space sharks have no such limitation. The Minotaurs, by the time they are leaving their ships, with then have sharks boarding their flagship, quickly taking it over, and using it to attack the Minotaurs from the middle of their formation.

Where does this mass teleporter fluff come from? Is it in the IA Badab War books?

The Carcharodons would use more "underhand" tactics than the Minotaurs. It wouldn't be an easy fight for either side.

I do think that the first company would be aboard the Daedelos Krata along with Moloch, so teleporting on to the ship would probably not be the best idea.

If the scenario was that the Minotaurs were tasked to put the Carchardons down I think they would have done some research as to their tactics before engaging them. I'd imagine keeping your gellar field active would prevent any ship to ship teleportation.

I make it sound as if the Carcharadons can teleport from outside of weapons range of the Minotaur fleet... which I'm pretty sure they can.

The Minotaurs, at the time their whole fleet entered the Orphean War, had three battle barges. Two were destroyed. They also had 8 strike cruisers- very respectable for a Space Marine Chapter. However, they might be down to just one barge at the time of this theoretical conflict. We know that the Carcharodons operate a fleet large enough to give the Imperial Navy some pause, given how tense interactions between them and the Loyalists were when they showed up during the Badab War and large enough to use a strike cruiser as an emissary. Sadly, ship numbers aren't given in IA... but we do know that the Nicor would have no trouble soloing a battle barge without using boarders.

I think you misread what I typed. The Minotaurs aren't teleporting anywhere. The sharks are- en masse. While the sharks are perfectly capable of moving a full company of terminators onto a ship instantly via the Nicor's teleporter, it is highly unlikely that the Minotaurs would keep a similar number on a single ship, given 1) the number of ships in their fleet and 2) the risk of having one's entire first company destroyed outright by a lucky shot from a warship. The sharks have no such worry, since they can move an entire company at once. So, here's the low-down.

The Minotaurs are the personal Chapter of the High Lords of Terra. They had new Battle Barges the very next week, and some other Chapter somewhere went without. The Minos never "lose" equipment, they just suffer a minor inconvenience of being without it until its replacement is arranged post-haste.

The ship you are talking about there sounds impressive on paper... until you realize that the Void Shields of an Imperial Naval battlecruiser can fall to a fairly short-term sustained barrage from a similarly-sized vessel. That a Strike Cruiser has them is "cool", but not, in the end, all that impressive. Especially not against multiple ships of its own class.

While the sharks are perfectly capable of moving a full company of terminators onto a ship instantly via the Nicor's teleporter, it is highly unlikely that the Minotaurs would keep a similar number on a single ship, given 1) the number of ships in their fleet and 2) the risk of having one's entire first company destroyed outright by a lucky shot from a warship. The sharks have no such worry, since they can move an entire company at once. So, here's the low-down.

Even the God-Emperor of Mankind could not teleport anyone aboard Horus' flagship until the shields were down, so the Space Sharks aren't teleporting to jack squat.

Also, you do realize that using a teleportarium is fething risky, right? Codex: Daemonhunters goes into pretty decent details about this. In short, you risk losing anyone/thing you put through it to the Warp, since you are actually passing through the Immaterium without the benefit of a Gellar Field.

Hope it's a real short jump.

Another thing to point out about the Minotaurs it that they are not, in actual fact, mindless berserkers. The Minotaurs use tactics beyond that of running blindly in, and Asterion Moloc is a master of siege warfare. They're brutal, but not stupid - a mistake that a lot of people make.

Medium of Death wrote:Where does this mass teleporter fluff come from? Is it in the IA Badab War books?

The Carcharodons would use more "underhand" tactics than the Minotaurs. It wouldn't be an easy fight for either side.

I do think that the first company would be aboard the Daedelos Krata along with Moloch, so teleporting on to the ship would probably not be the best idea.

If the scenario was that the Minotaurs were tasked to put the Carchardons down I think they would have done some research as to their tactics before engaging them. I'd imagine keeping your gellar field active would prevent any ship to ship teleportation.

Oh, no! Deathwatch: Honor the Chapter. It actually has more on them than any of the IA books.

Again, I'm not sure- given how many Minotaur battle barges have been destroyed in the past, that seems like a good way to lose a company's entire leadership, best veterans, and supply in terminator armor all in one swoop.

What research? All that exists is fragments in the Imperial records. Moreover, the Sharks arrived in Badab seemingly at the behedst of the 'Holy Terra itself.' What that means is up for debate, but what isn't is that if the High Lords were responsible for calling in the Sharks, they didn't bother to tell the Minotaurs.. or Inquisition.

Psienesus is right, though- shields do prevent teleporting, although I have a response for that coming up.

Psienesis wrote:

The Minotaurs are the personal Chapter of the High Lords of Terra. They had new Battle Barges the very next week, and some other Chapter somewhere went without. The Minos never "lose" equipment, they just suffer a minor inconvenience of being without it until its replacement is arranged post-haste.

The ship you are talking about there sounds impressive on paper... until you realize that the Void Shields of an Imperial Naval battlecruiser can fall to a fairly short-term sustained barrage from a similarly-sized vessel. That a Strike Cruiser has them is "cool", but not, in the end, all that impressive. Especially not against multiple ships of its own class.

Even the God-Emperor of Mankind could not teleport anyone aboard Horus' flagship until the shields were down, so the Space Sharks aren't teleporting to jack squat.

Also, you do realize that using a teleportarium is fething risky, right? Codex: Daemonhunters goes into pretty decent details about this. In short, you risk losing anyone/thing you put through it to the Warp, since you are actually passing through the Immaterium without the benefit of a Gellar Field.

Hope it's a real short jump.

It is a teleporter 'with a degree of accuracy almost unheard of.' You are right, that such an assault would have to wait until the Sharks have bashed down the Minotaur's shields... but that does mean the tactic would succeed on a battleground on-planet. Teleporting without error, due to homers or other tech, is something that happens in TT 40k, and may be possible with the advanced technology on the Nicor.

Since when do the Minotaurs possess a flotilla of IN battleships? While its been a while, I do know Battlefleet Gothic only rates shields from 1-4. Battleships are at 4. A Battle barge is at 3. With how shields work in the game, I believe it would take shooting from more than 2 Battle Barges to drop the shields of the Nicor.

As for losing Battle Barges, there is another side to that. You see, in order to need a Battle Barge replaced, you have to LOSE a Battle Barge... which the Minotaurs do with a frequency I haven't seen in any other Chapter. While it would be unfair to say that the Minotaurs are bad sailors, it would probably be fair to say their Imperial crews probably do not have the best morale, given how often the Minotaurs anger everyone they work with. Granted, the Carcharodons don't have a whole lot of friends, either, but they are, at least, polite when dealing with other agents of the Imperial. They are also very good sailors.

"The Sigard system was the first to taste the wrath and fury of the grey-clad Space Marines, and the Carcharadon fleet broke out of Warp directly above the system on the galactic plane, perilously close to Sigard's swollen and violent sun. Using its solar flares as a shield, the fleet split up its dozens of striking forces and devastated the numerous belt-colonies, ship-clans, and asteroid-citadels of the Sigard system, destroying in mere days and weeks what had taken millenia to build and had withstood the ravages of alien and renegade alike." it is widely shown in 40k written material that entering or exiting the Warp anywhere but the outer edges of a gravity well is a bad idea... but the Carcharodons were capable of leaving Warp close enough to the sun to be masked by solar flares without, apparently, losing any vessels, because the Navigators on Shark ships are just that good. In a space engagement, the Carcharodons will be able to defeat the Minotaurs given a parity of vessels, because man for man, they're better at fighting in space. Given the above, it is not inconceivable that 1) if the Sharks arrived first, they could enter the Warp and exit it behind the Minotaur fleet and pound it into oblivion before the Minotaurs could get most of their guns brought to bear or 2) the Sharks could use the same tactic they did at Sigard if the Minotaurs arrived first.

liquidjoshi wrote:Another thing to point out about the Minotaurs it that they are not, in actual fact, mindless berserkers. The Minotaurs use tactics beyond that of running blindly in, and Asterion Moloc is a master of siege warfare. They're brutal, but not stupid - a mistake that a lot of people make.

By the rules, Minotaurs have Fearless, which prevents them from doing things like failing a morale roll to leave combat with something that cannot damage in CC or going to ground. Stupid, no... but they are exploitable.

As a side note, in close combat, PE will be balanced out by the Carcharodon tendency to give every Tac squad a bolter, bolt pistol, AND an additional close combat weapon. If the Carcharodons are the ones to get the charge off, Furious Charge will ensure they win it... and of course, the widespread use of drop pods helps ensure they get the first shots off as well.

Fools... if the Carcharodons and the Minotaurs fight, the only ones who win are Chaos! You must stand together against the darkness!

In light of the new information I think the Carcharodons would do much more damage than I originally thought.

This would be a Horus Heresy level engagement. Only one side would walk away.

If we think that the Carcharodons have only ever prosecuted traitors then they would probably be attacking the Minotaurs because of the control that the high lords have over them.

I think a fight between Tyberos and Moloc would be interesting. I can't quite imagine how Tyberos fights with his gauntlets in a one on one situation thought? I'd assume he just uses them like lightning claws?

I know rules don't reflect the fluff, but who wins on a tabletop level between these two?

Moloc, I think. Storm shield, EW, S6 Ap2 in melee and preferred enemy.

He is more expensive though.

"The Sigard system was the first to taste the wrath and fury of the grey-clad Space Marines, and the Carcharadon fleet broke out of Warp directly above the system on the galactic plane, perilously close to Sigard's swollen and violent sun. Using its solar flares as a shield, the fleet split up its dozens of striking forces and devastated the numerous belt-colonies, ship-clans, and asteroid-citadels of the Sigard system, destroying in mere days and weeks what had taken millenia to build and had withstood the ravages of alien and renegade alike." it is widely shown in 40k written material that entering or exiting the Warp anywhere but the outer edges of a gravity well is a bad idea... but the Carcharodons were capable of leaving Warp close enough to the sun to be masked by solar flares without, apparently, losing any vessels, because the Navigators on Shark ships are just that good. In a space engagement, the Carcharodons will be able to defeat the Minotaurs given a parity of vessels, because man for man, they're better at fighting in space. Given the above, it is not inconceivable that 1) if the Sharks arrived first, they could enter the Warp and exit it behind the Minotaur fleet and pound it into oblivion before the Minotaurs could get most of their guns brought to bear or 2) the Sharks could use the same tactic they did at Sigard if the Minotaurs arrived first.

Let me retell this story when the protagonists don't have Plot Armor:

Tales of Fails wrote:The Sigard system would have been the first to taste the wrath and fury of the grey-clad Space Marines, had the Carcharadon fleet not attempted to break out of Warp directly above the system on the galactic plane, instead leaving the Warp within Sigard's swollen and violent sun.

... just because they pull off a ballsy move once does not mean they make it a matter of SOP.

Same thing with the Teleportarium. It might be accurate, but that doesn't mean that every twentieth time they use it, whatever goes in never comes out again.