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great batrep as always! thank you so much for having played grey knights i got only one question....why don't you take DKs?? they are so cool! i always play 3 of them with heavy incinerator for 160 points of powerfulness! what do you think about that?

Ok, after having gone over the BRB and the codex, this is how I intepret Synapse and Regrouping works.


First off, from the Tyranid codex, p. 38:

If a unit from the codex: Tyranids is falling back and at least 1 of the unit's models is within a friendly Synapse Creature's synapse range before the unit moves, the unit automatically Regroups.

Now from the BRB, p.31 (Regrouping):

A unit that is falling back must attempt to Regroup by taking a Regroup test in their Movement phase just before they move.

Now there is one other rule to look at - Fearless, p. 35

Units containing one or more models with the Fearless special rule automatically pass Pinning, Fear and Regroup test and Morale checks....

So first of all, being/becoming Fearless doesn't matter at all. Fearless units still have to take a Regroup test if the unit is falling back. The only thing is that they auto-pass. Moreover, the rules for Synapse describing how a unit Regroups should supercede the rules for regrouping due to being Fearless as the Synapse rules are more specific. However, in this case, they both basically say the same thing - that the fleeing unit auto-regroups.


Now there are 2 situations that can happen with synapse:

1) The unit is out of synapse before falling back, but it then falls back into Synapse range (or a synapse creature moves into the vicinity). It will auto-regroup because now it is in synapse range. However, as synapse doesn't describe the auto-regroup as immediately, that means you still have to follow the rules for Regrouping, which is that it is done before the unit has moved. Thus, it won't be able to actually regroup until next turn, before it moves again because it is too late to regroup this turn as it has already moved.

2) The unit gets into synapse range (i.e. a synapse creature moves into range of the fleeing unit) before it actually moves. In this case, it automatically regroups then and can only consolidate and snap-shot as per the BRB, p.31:

If the unit successfully passes the test, it stops falling back and can immediately move up to 3".....

Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move (so cannot Run in the Shooting phase or charge in the Assault phase). However, it can shoot (including Overwatch), but counts as having moved and can only fire Snap Shots.

So the moral of the story is this. If your Tyranid unit is falling back, do not move it first. Move any available Synapse creature into Synapse range of the fleeing unit first before moving the unit itself.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
The only thing about fearless and regrouping is if a non-fearless unit has gone to ground and becomes fearless it can immediately resume acting as normal.

The Tyranid codex states that if they are in synapse before movement they automatically regroup.

So, if you move a synapse creature to them AFTER they move, they simply stop falling back and act normally (As fearless models cannot fall back, and you haven't been given permission to regroup as described in the brb, so you simply stop falling back and act as normal, which is described in the GTG->fearless FAQ). If you move a synapse creature to them BEFORE they move, they just regroup (And thus can only snap fire).

You are mainly correct. However, there is still the issue of timing. Nowhere in the rules for Synapse does it allow you to rally immediately. You just auto-rally when it comes time to take the test.

So if you move a synapse creature to them AFTER they move, yeah they auto-regroup. However, since they've already moved, they won't be able to auto-rally until their next turn before they move again.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
jy2 Fearless units don't have to regroup and this occurs at the beginning of the turn... Give the Nidz a break.

Unfortunately, Feareless units still have to regroup. They just automatically pass their Regrouping test.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
The rule I quoted mentions the timing - "when a unit enters synapse". I personally read that as "immediately". It's ok if you disagree.

I disagree. Automatically regrouping is not the same as immediately regrouping. Automatically regrouping is you automatically pass your test to Regroup. Since the rules for Synapse does not explicitly tell you when you automatically regroup, you have to fall back to the default rules for Regrouping with regards to the timing.

Do the Synapse rules make specific mention of how to resolve units that went to ground in a previous turn becoming fearless?

 Eldarain wrote:
Do the Synapse rules make specific mention of how to resolve units that went to ground in a previous turn becoming fearless?

The only thing Synapse mentions is that a unit within range becomes Fearless. As to the going-to-ground issue, you will have to look up the rules for Fearless, which doesn't actually address the issue directly.

Now here is my intepretation. This is also how most people that I've seen play it.

Fearless units auto-pass Pinning checks. Moreover, they cannot go to ground. Thus, if a synapse creature moves into range of a unit that has gone-to-ground (or is pinned), then that unit becomes unpinned and can then act normally. The default action from a unit that is unpinned is that they can act normally, unlike Regroup which tells you exactly what you can do after you pass the test to Regroup.

 Eldarain wrote:
Do the Synapse rules make specific mention of how to resolve units that went to ground in a previous turn becoming fearless?

No, that specific instance is covered in the BRB FAQ under "what happens if a unit that has gone to ground becomes fearless?". (Answer - they act normally and are no longer gone to ground)

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Do the Synapse rules make specific mention of how to resolve units that went to ground in a previous turn becoming fearless?

No, that specific instance is covered in the BRB FAQ under "what happens if a unit that has gone to ground becomes fearless?". (Answer - they act normally and are no longer gone to ground)

Ok, nice to know. I didn't think to check the BRB FAQ.

Thanks to both of you. I too only checked the rulebook.

You're welcome.

jy2 I think you're throwing semantics around to prove your point. This is a special case that up to this codex is something that rarely occurred (Tervi spam in the past). Maybe they'll faq it but I doubt that. I do understand and appreciate your POV.

As is always the case, there are usually 2 intepretations to most rules disputes. If you are running bugs, I definitely recommend discussing it with your opponent with regards to how it should be played. Better to do it in a civil manner pre-game than to argue over it during.

The problem with the whole regrouping issue in the rulebook is that it isn't very clear about precisely what 'regrouping' is...we are sure that you can only 'attempt to regroup' by 'taking a regroup test in the movement phase' just before moving.

But then if you follow the rest of the rules on that page, it only describes what happens to the unit if it passes the regroup test (it stops falling back, can move 3").

By a strict RAW reading, the 3" move is completely tied to actually passing a regroup test. We have no actual definition of what it might mean to 'regroup' in a pure sense (out of the movement phase without taking a test).

Then at the bottom of the page, we have an additional set of restrictions for units that have regrouped that say: 'once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move (so cannot Run in the Shooting phase or charge in the Assault phase). However, it can shoot (including Overwatch), but counts as having moved and can only fire Snap Shots.'

Those restrictions never mention that they *ONLY* apply on the turn the unit regroups, just that once a unit regroups it cannot do these things, period. So again, by a RAW reading we are left with once a unit regroups it is stuck unable to move for the rest of the game and can only fire snap shots.

So is it even possible to automatically (and immediately) regroup in the middle of a turn? If so, does the unit even get to make a 3" move? And are any of those restrictions listed applied in that case?

In the last edition of the game, the Fearless rules seemed to indicate that becoming Fearless would automatically mean the unit would cease 'falling back', but in the new edition, now Fearless includes the rule that a Fearless unit automatically passes regroup tests, which strongly seems to imply that it is perfectly possible (although unlikely) for a Fearless unit to find itself falling back and at that point, the only benefit being Fearless gives the unit is the ability to automatically pass the test to regroup (not automatically regroup immediately).


Then to really make things more confusing, GW totally dropped the ball with updating their Synapse wording from the last codex, even though they had put out an errata in the last edition to 'fix' the Synapse rules. The current Synapse rules still state: '...at least one of the unit's models is within a friendly Synapse Creature's synapse range before the unit moves, the unit automatically regroups.'

They put out an errata last edition to fix that 'before the unit moves' to mean 'before the unit moves 'in the movement phase', but they DIDN'T BOTHER TO UPDATE THE NEW CODEX.

On top of that, if being within Synapse range makes a unit Fearless (which means it automatically passes it's test to regroup) then why bother saying the unit automatically regroups as well (which just adds doubt to how this all works)?!?

If they want a unit to 'automatically regroup' meaning, 'automatically pass a test to regroup' they should say that. And if the want a unit to immediately no longer count as falling back they should say that...but saying that a unit 'automatically regroups' is incredibly confusing and vague.


At the end of the day, I think the wording in the Synapse rules is a terrible copy-paste job from previous editions. I think the intention of the rule is basically what jy2 says...that you just get to automatically pass tests to regroup if you're within synapse range (and therefore fearless), but you don't magically stop being in the 'falling back' status when your unit comes within range of a Synapse creature.

I know this doesn't quite vibe with GW's ruling on 'gone to ground' but I think it's the cleanest best bet to work with that doesn't create all sorts of other crazy situations.

So did you actually end up taking the bugs to LVO?

Jy2 is using his necrons and so far has 3 wins 0 losses.

On the torrent of fire website I counted about 10 tyranid 6e players, and only one LLL record. The top finishers are playing tau, elder, and daemons but I think JY2 is currently rocking 15th out of 193 places.

I've lost count now of the amount of batreps I've read/watched where the Nids are clentching their buttholes to snatch a turn 5 win and if the game continues it's a guaranteed loss. Not really the way you want to be playing an army on a regular basis, unless of course you like that sort of thing.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Jy2 is using his necrons and so far has 3 wins 0 losses.

On the torrent of fire website I counted about 10 tyranid 6e players, and only one LLL record. The top finishers are playing tau, elder, and daemons but I think JY2 is currently rocking 15th out of 193 places.

There are 9 Tyranid 6th ed players actually, and imo, that's a pretty decent showing so far at least for a new book that has received so much utter doom and gloom.

WWW: 1
WWD: 1
WWL: 4
WLL: 2
LLL: 1

I tied mech Eldar game #1. The game went 7 turns and I should have won it but I screwed up and did not target his warlord when I had a chance to kill him. I then tabled the next 2 for a 2-0-1 record and 23rd place.

Tomorrow I am matched up against Tau/Eldar for the first game so I am not looking good. :(

 Blackmoor wrote:
I tied mech Eldar game #1. The game went 7 turns and I should have won it but I screwed up and did not target his warlord when I had a chance to kill him. I then tabled the next 2 for a 2-0-1 record and 23rd place.

Tomorrow I am matched up against Tau/Eldar for the first game so I am not looking good. :(

Good job! Please tell Neil that the book isn't all doom and gloom!

Also consider adding some automated fortifications to your lists. Vengeance batteries with battle cannons throw some good hurt down range.

Great job Allan !!!

I beat Tau/ Eldar. Now the worst I can do is 3-1-1.

Exalted. Kick some ass and let us all know how you did it!

Good job !!!

 yakface wrote:

The problem with the whole regrouping issue in the rulebook is that it isn't very clear about precisely what 'regrouping' is...we are sure that you can only 'attempt to regroup' by 'taking a regroup test in the movement phase' just before moving.

But then if you follow the rest of the rules on that page, it only describes what happens to the unit if it passes the regroup test (it stops falling back, can move 3").

By a strict RAW reading, the 3" move is completely tied to actually passing a regroup test. We have no actual definition of what it might mean to 'regroup' in a pure sense (out of the movement phase without taking a test).

Then at the bottom of the page, we have an additional set of restrictions for units that have regrouped that say: 'once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move (so cannot Run in the Shooting phase or charge in the Assault phase). However, it can shoot (including Overwatch), but counts as having moved and can only fire Snap Shots.'

Those restrictions never mention that they *ONLY* apply on the turn the unit regroups, just that once a unit regroups it cannot do these things, period. So again, by a RAW reading we are left with once a unit regroups it is stuck unable to move for the rest of the game and can only fire snap shots.

So is it even possible to automatically (and immediately) regroup in the middle of a turn? If so, does the unit even get to make a 3" move? And are any of those restrictions listed applied in that case?

In the last edition of the game, the Fearless rules seemed to indicate that becoming Fearless would automatically mean the unit would cease 'falling back', but in the new edition, now Fearless includes the rule that a Fearless unit automatically passes regroup tests, which strongly seems to imply that it is perfectly possible (although unlikely) for a Fearless unit to find itself falling back and at that point, the only benefit being Fearless gives the unit is the ability to automatically pass the test to regroup (not automatically regroup immediately).


Then to really make things more confusing, GW totally dropped the ball with updating their Synapse wording from the last codex, even though they had put out an errata in the last edition to 'fix' the Synapse rules. The current Synapse rules still state: '...at least one of the unit's models is within a friendly Synapse Creature's synapse range before the unit moves, the unit automatically regroups.'

They put out an errata last edition to fix that 'before the unit moves' to mean 'before the unit moves 'in the movement phase', but they DIDN'T BOTHER TO UPDATE THE NEW CODEX.

On top of that, if being within Synapse range makes a unit Fearless (which means it automatically passes it's test to regroup) then why bother saying the unit automatically regroups as well (which just adds doubt to how this all works)?!?

If they want a unit to 'automatically regroup' meaning, 'automatically pass a test to regroup' they should say that. And if the want a unit to immediately no longer count as falling back they should say that...but saying that a unit 'automatically regroups' is incredibly confusing and vague.


At the end of the day, I think the wording in the Synapse rules is a terrible copy-paste job from previous editions. I think the intention of the rule is basically what jy2 says...that you just get to automatically pass tests to regroup if you're within synapse range (and therefore fearless), but you don't magically stop being in the 'falling back' status when your unit comes within range of a Synapse creature.

I know this doesn't quite vibe with GW's ruling on 'gone to ground' but I think it's the cleanest best bet to work with that doesn't create all sorts of other crazy situations.

Why would they need to specify in the movement phase for synapse? The brb mentions two ways of regrouping on pg31, either beig charged or at the beginning of movement before they move. If you're saying they can regroup after they fell back into synapse range from shooting or assault, ormalediction, one could still argue the unit moved from falling back.