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 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
Few thoughts

If your tacticals are less threatening then less experienced players will ignore them. The first job of the tactical is to survive, combat power is secondary.

Heavy bolters are reasobable (for infantry) at skimmers / light fliers / horde

Heavy bolters keep you focused on small arms targets

Also regarding razors, hiding most of the squad benind the vehicle with a body or 2 then heavy weapon is a pain in the backside for your opponent. Shoot at an empty light vehicle, probably in cover, or at the 2-3 infantry he can see? Meanwhile you have two heavy weapon platforms hitting back till he does deal with you. It's forcing the opponent to react to your deployment.

They do look great

No, good players will ignore them, kill all your good units, and then wipe them up at the end. Adjusting for die rolls, of course. But shooting tactical squads is a good way to lose. Tactical squads utter lack of offense makes them ignorable. You just have to know when to start the mop up phase.

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
Tactical squads utter lack of offense makes them ignorable.

Tac squads carrying Lascannons or Plasma Cannons can be a major pain in the butt, though.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
Tactical squads utter lack of offense makes them ignorable.

Tac squads carrying Lascannons or Plasma Cannons can be a major pain in the butt, though.

Not as intimidating as a meaty unit of Bikers with Grav weapons by any stretch. That's usually a major threat in many circumstances ; the laughable chance that the odd heavy weapon might suddenly pull its weight at its maximum potential won't bother any opponent.

What I hate about Tac squads is this:

You put a Las in there and then when you want to shoot the Las at a tank you give up all those bolter shots, same thing with any other AT weapon. I just hate how as soon as you need to fire something heavy at a tank it invalidates the rest of the squad, who can do nothing to most tanks, unless you get lucky and are looking at rear armour.

I'd much rather run them as pure anti-infantry and leave the heavy stuff to my tanks. Thus the Heavy Bolter makes sense for me. Maybe I'll run a combi-melta on the sarge just for that extra level of protection from tanks getting too close...

 Sir Arun wrote:

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
Tactical squads utter lack of offense makes them ignorable.

Tac squads carrying Lascannons or Plasma Cannons can be a major pain in the butt, though.

Not really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

darkcloak wrote:
What I hate about Tac squads is this:

You put a Las in there and then when you want to shoot the Las at a tank you give up all those bolter shots, same thing with any other AT weapon. I just hate how as soon as you need to fire something heavy at a tank it invalidates the rest of the squad, who can do nothing to most tanks, unless you get lucky and are looking at rear armour.

I'd much rather run them as pure anti-infantry and leave the heavy stuff to my tanks. Thus the Heavy Bolter makes sense for me. Maybe I'll run a combi-melta on the sarge just for that extra level of protection from tanks getting too close...

I agree with you in principle, but the tac squad is bad even with the heavy bolter and being dedicated-anti infantry. Besides, when was the last time you saw an Eldar troop walk?

darkcloak wrote:
What I hate about Tac squads is this:

You put a Las in there and then when you want to shoot the Las at a tank you give up all those bolter shots, same thing with any other AT weapon. I just hate how as soon as you need to fire something heavy at a tank it invalidates the rest of the squad, who can do nothing to most tanks, unless you get lucky and are looking at rear armour.

I'd much rather run them as pure anti-infantry and leave the heavy stuff to my tanks. Thus the Heavy Bolter makes sense for me. Maybe I'll run a combi-melta on the sarge just for that extra level of protection from tanks getting too close...

I have much the same thought, a pure AT heavy weapon (such as LC) if you try to fire it at a tank will essentially waste a round of your squads shooting with their bolters. If you focus your tac squad for anti-infantry then the HB isn't a bad choice especially since the only other anti-infantry option is essentially a flamer. With it's short range and the idea of a tac squad being to survive and grab objectives then why would you risk your scoring unit by putting them that close to the enemy (barring of course looking at who you're fighting and taking into account they may be moving in on you to also snag the objective)?

Also a seemingly non-threatening squad theoretically should be fired at less so that'll help them survive to fill that scoring unit role by late game.

I think it's hard to say essentially that the HB is a great or terrible weapon choice but rather that it is dependant on some variables. Those being in my opinion: Who you're fighting (swarm army? lots of infantry? lots of tanks? Grey knights type army where you'd rather have more plasma?) Your play style (rushing get close aggressive? Purely a Scoring unit tac squad?) Specific role you want your squad to fill (AT?, Anti-infantry?, Human shields for a more important squad?) And of course whether you as the player feel you can justify the points to spend on a HB or if you'd rather save those points for something you think will be more valuable.

Suffice to say I think the HB is something where YMMV and it's up to you whether you want to adapt to using it in a way you feel will be functional in your army.

Without list tailoring, it's hard to have the right answer. I think plasma is the most TAC tactical weapon.

Martel732 wrote:
Without list tailoring, it's hard to have the right answer. I think plasma is the most TAC tactical weapon.

^ Agreed with said statement. Plasma is a good staple catch all weapon choice. Except maybe horde but against horde even bolters I find are more than adequate.

Ideal: No
A good choice for a mobile Tactical Squad it could be.
Imperial Fist it is probaly a good choice with the Re-Rolls of 1s.
As far as the other choices it is the least effected by movment as you still get three chances to hit and with the re-rolls of 1s that improves your chance of hitting.
If you are not moving that almost garenties hitting all three times and vs. Non-MCs and Vehicles that give you a geed chance of wounds. With most 4+ Models that is usualy three dead models.

Why would you take a heavy over a special on a unit that plans on moving?

Martel732 wrote:
Why would you take a heavy over a special on a unit that plans on moving?

I take both

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why would you take a heavy over a special on a unit that plans on moving?

I take both

Seems like a waste to me, but I'm not sure it makes much difference. Just eats up a few points.

Martel732 wrote:
Without list tailoring, it's hard to have the right answer. I think plasma is the most TAC tactical weapon.

Which is also why it is the costliest special weapon and poses a health hazard to its wielder, on top of being costlier than the HB and having inferior range.

 Sir Arun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Without list tailoring, it's hard to have the right answer. I think plasma is the most TAC tactical weapon.

Which is also why it is the costliest special weapon and poses a health hazard to its wielder, on top of being costlier than the HB and having infrior range.

You get what you pay for. A useful, deadly asset, albeit one in limited supply still, which is why Bikes are superior.

The health hazard is a 1 in 20 chance to kill without re-rolls to hit of any kind, which is pretty laughable.

Costlier by 5 points. Cost efficiency? Well when you consider it can knock a fifth of the wounds off a Riptide reasonably well whereas a Heavy Bolter hasn't got a faint hope in hell, and do both anti-infantry and AMC that's a no brainer option.

Range doesn't matter, because only an idiot would take a heavy bolter combat squad to sit in the backfield and exploit the range. And hell, even when the range even matters in the midfield (a turn after you've gotten there, when the rest of your army is a steaming wreck because of your points inefficiency), one heavy bolter is going to make no difference at all unless you roll like a god.

I play Imperial Fists. I tend to use more heavy bolters then is common. Granted, they dont always do what I want them to, but...my dice dont always roll the way I want to either. I feel they are sort of "fluffy" choices for most C:SM chapters. Including the Imperial Fists. I still like them since it gives me more shots (even at a 6 to hit) against most troops. For the big stuff, thats where the tac squads set up for them or the bike squad comes into play.

Unlike popular meta, I like my tactical squads to have a specific purpose (as opposed to "spam as much plasma as possible"). That means that I run 3 tactical squads, one will hunt troops or blobby units (combi-flamer, flamer, HB), one will go after elite units (combi-plasma, PG, PC) and one will got after vehicles (combi-melta. MG, MM). All can support each other but each has its own role.

There's plenty of other units to provide long range fire support, and forward threats (devs, grav-cents, LR, etc...)

Each squad is in a rhino, most often all will combat squad and the only one I typically deploy outside the rhino is the PC since moving makes it completely useless.

The other squads will push midfield and typically drop off the heavies while the other combat-squads will continue the forward move. That way I try to maximize the use and threat-range of all weapons.

As a whole, it's more cost-efficient (IMHO) to purchase full squads with combi/special/heavy/srgt/dedicated-transport than multiple 5-man squads with combi/special/dedicated-transport setups (as much as I'd love for it to work).

So in conclusion, is the HB the best heavy weapon for a mobile tactical squad? No, I don't think so. As brought up before, if you're moving, any heavy weapon is gonna lose efficiency. Can you make good use of a HB? Absolutely. It adds well to the tactical squad's normal firepower (bolters) wounds a little easier and ignores the armor on some of the more popular xenos armies these days. Should you take all HBs in your tacts? Well, you can, but then you're pigeonholing yourself. Should you not take a heavy weapons at all? Well, again, you can, but out of 3-4 tactical squads you're gonna save what? Maybe 40-60 points? At the typical 2k scale what does that give you? You can't add a whole new 5-man squad with combi/special for that cost. The only thing I can think of that would fit is a Whirlwind. I like my BTs too and while I think the CC crusader squad make sense, I can't really vouch for the special/heavy 5-man crusader squads, they just don't seem very efficient to me, I'd rather go with a combat-squaded tactical.

Just my 2 cents.

I can put upgrades on Stormravens.

I keep my tac squads as anti-infantry and leave my big boys for heavier stuff. I arm them with heavy bolters, but then I play Imperial Fists.

I think the OP is missing something: snap firing affects all heavy weapons equally. The fact that the heavy bolter gets more shots does not make it a better weapon for snap firing. A heavy bolter and a lascannon will both do 1/4 of the damage that they would have done if you stayed still.

With that understanding, what's better, a 1/4 strength heavy bolter or a 1/4 strength lascannon or multimelta? I'd get the latter every time, as they're more likely to contribute to the game. As for which loadout, there's nothing wrong with creating little melta no-zones with melta, combi-melta, and multimelta. They're not an offensive units, but 10 T4 dudes with power armor in cover with 3x melta weapons are going to be difficult to shift, and if you put them in a drop pod, you can even defend your opponent's objectives rather than defending on your own, which is generally better.

I would say no, but the other day mine was the last man standing form a squad holding an objective, and he managed to hold it for the rest of the game, he was attacked by a squad of five marines, one with a plasma gun at one point, and he just held the hill like a motherfether, so I would say it is not that great for moving around, but a rhino (which I use for that squad btw) can circumvent that, and would be the weapon of choice of objective holding.

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
I would say no, but the other day mine was the last man standing form a squad holding an objective, and he managed to hold it for the rest of the game, he was attacked by a squad of five marines, one with a plasma gun at one point, and he just held the hill like a motherfether, so I would say it is not that great for moving around, but a rhino (which I use for that squad btw) can circumvent that, and would be the weapon of choice of objective holding.

These are the best moments in the game

Anyone who laughs at heavy bolters is being a mite cocky for my liking. Sure you get your 3+ as marines, but DE, Eldar and bugs run, as do Tau. As a marines player I have seen a squad of 10 tacs reduced to 3 from 5 terminators nod a CML shooting, roll enough dice and guys will go down. One tough match I was lucky to pull a draw from was a bikes list, think he bought 7 heavy bolters, damn I was rolling buckets of armour saves and units started to melt.

Best in the game? It could be argued that way all things considered: shots, strength, AP, range, cost, compliment to bolters and tactical turn by turn objectives

Something no one has mentioned, perhaps because it is so glaringly obvious; the heavy model is only restricted to snap shots if he actually moves. The rest of the squad can move forwards, and as long as they leave behind a member every two inches to maintain coherency, the heavy model can shoot without penalty. Admittedly there are many instances where having a line of space marines poking out of your deployment zone is not particularly helpful, but occasionally this trick can allow you to move your other weapons in to better positions without interrupting the heavy, helping you get better mileage out of all the squad's weapons.

 Ailaros wrote:
I think the OP is missing something: snap firing affects all heavy weapons equally. The fact that the heavy bolter gets more shots does not make it a better weapon for snap firing. A heavy bolter and a lascannon will both do 1/4 of the damage that they would have done if you stayed still.

Well a HB is better in that it takes 3 snap shots at FMCs, compared to the others doing single shots, so is more likely to down the thing. Yes, rather fringe benefit, but it is there when needed.

a HB is better for Snapfiring for the same reason termies are considered bad - 3 chances give you a better result to actually do anything compared to only 1 chance.
In the end it runs down to 25%, but a HB is less prone to bad rolls.

nareik wrote:Well a HB is better in that it takes 3 snap shots at FMCs, compared to the others doing single shots, so is more likely to down the thing.

But what about the other 8 guys in the squad firing bolters? The squad already has a decent enough volume of fire to force a grounding test, while other heavy weapons can hurt monstrous creatures once they're already grounded.

The Heavy Bolter improves the reach of the unit, and if combat squaded, significantly improves rate of fire.

Ain't no killdown like overkilldown

A FMC can only be grounded once at a time, though. Once the beast is on the ground, the heavy bolters become practically useless against MCs.

Overinvesting in forcing downing tests is as bad of a mistake as underinvesting in it. I mean, naked imperial guard infantry is great at forcing downing tests for their cost, but that doesn't mean blowing a few hundred points on nothing but lasguns is going to make your army stronger against FMCs.

Doesnt shooting happen silumtaneously? So your Lascannon would still hit on a 6 the turn your bolters ground the FMC.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Doesnt shooting happen silumtaneously? So your Lascannon would still hit on a 6 the turn your bolters ground the FMC.

It's simultaneous per unit.

nareik wrote:
Something no one has mentioned, perhaps because it is so glaringly obvious; the heavy model is only restricted to snap shots if he actually moves. The rest of the squad can move forwards, and as long as they leave behind a member every two inches to maintain coherency, the heavy model can shoot without penalty. Admittedly there are many instances where having a line of space marines poking out of your deployment zone is not particularly helpful, but occasionally this trick can allow you to move your other weapons in to better positions without interrupting the heavy, helping you get better mileage out of all the squad's weapons.

I have done this many times, moving the rest of the squad so they are better placed or getting them that last 3" they need to get into objective range but leave the HB stationary, my friend does it with his LC wielding marine in his squads too. With old versions of the rules it used to be "even if one guy in your squad sneezes and moves 1/2" then the whole squad is considered as having moved". That's now done with and a model only actually counts as having moved if he's actually moved. It's another great way of making those heavies that much more useful. And yeah even snap shooting, 3 rolls to get a six is better than 1 roll (even if those three rolls are for a much weaker weapon, but hey could be worse, could be toting a PC and then you get no snap shots).

Or save the points and help buy a unit that can do something. Trying to make tacticals a threat is usually a waste of points. Plasma guns at least have the same range and type as the bolter.