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 SMC wrote:
I'm more about the look and fluff of an army not really the rules so much. So what I'm asking is for you all to help sell me on either the Dark Angels or Blood Angels chapter and why? Thank you for your time.

blood angels have much nicer models and colour scheme IMO. dark angels colour scheme is butt ugly.

 SMC wrote:
What became intolerable?

Getting rofl stomped.

Martel, I get where you're coming from, I really do man. You should probably toss a disclaimer in your sig saying "I play in a highly competitive Tau/Eldar meta". I mean the way you post, one would think C:SM and BA model lines should just be cut. Neither army is that bad, if you know what you are doing. Sure BA, are pretty badly overcosted, but their plusses outweigh the negatives IMO. The assault problem is a 6th ED problem, not just a BA problem. And Codices Tau and Eldar are just fething brokrn so using them as a standard of measure makes all the other books look horrible.

If you like the BA fluff and units run em. If winning is your thing, don't.

Trust me, I know what I'm doing from my record against other marine lists.

I've beaten the vaunted C:SM White Scars with BA multiple times. You know what White Scars CAN'T do? Melt my whole list from 36" while riding in invincible skimmer tanks. Marines don't have easy access to ignore cover and grav doesn't negate FNP. If Tau and Eldar are what my key opponents are using, how can they NOT be the standard? The standard in any sport league is the BEST team. The standard in military affairs is the BEST tank or the BEST fighter. Not the mediocre one. Tau and Eldar are the standard, by GW edict. Not my edict.

If something is overcosted, by DEFINITION, it doesn't have enough upside. Not enough plusses. BA were already overcosted in 5th no matter what anyone said. The ONLY thing that made them feared was the durability of AV 11 vehicles in 5th. FNP was easier to bypass and SW and IG were trump lists. Now, in 6th, BA are beyond overcosted. I'm thinking that C:SM is still overcosted since most fancy marine units up the offense, but not the defenses.

Well if you like the DA codex enough to live with it for the next few years, there's that...

But you could be BA's instead, and have a new codex slowly creeping up on the horizon. Granted, it's a lottery, but if we even get points reduction for ASM's and non-mandatory vet sarges, and priests stay the same, I'll be reasonably happy.

Additionally, we have the oldest living (non-dreadnought) loyalist space marine as our chapter master. Annoyingly, he also wins the absolute-first-place award for "Model most deserving of the eternal warrior rule, but doesn't have it" contest.

BA also have a lot of list theme options. Sanguinary guard troops as a sort of jump pack death wing. Drop pod dreadnoughts. All jump packs army. Crazy Astorath death company army.

Then there's also Mephiston... Just don't run him into enemy 2+ armor, like ever. Unless someone wants to play you at 5th edition rules.

Why choose? How about a Blood Angels army with a Dark Angels Allied Detachment?

^ seems like a viable approach these days. I prefer DA but I can't say why in a concise manner.

Martel732 wrote:
Trust me, I know what I'm doing from my record against other marine lists.

I've beaten the vaunted C:SM White Scars with BA multiple times. You know what White Scars CAN'T do? Melt my whole list from 36" while riding in invincible skimmer tanks. Marines don't have easy access to ignore cover and grav doesn't negate FNP. If Tau and Eldar are what my key opponents are using, how can they NOT be the standard? The standard in any sport league is the BEST team. The standard in military affairs is the BEST tank or the BEST fighter. Not the mediocre one. Tau and Eldar are the standard, by GW edict. Not my edict.

If something is overcosted, by DEFINITION, it doesn't have enough upside. Not enough plusses. BA were already overcosted in 5th no matter what anyone said. The ONLY thing that made them feared was the durability of AV 11 vehicles in 5th. FNP was easier to bypass and SW and IG were trump lists. Now, in 6th, BA are beyond overcosted. I'm thinking that C:SM is still overcosted since most fancy marine units up the offense, but not the defenses.

Let me put it this way, how about instead of calling everything not Tau or Eldar gak, how about we call em what they are. OP, the broken exceptions to an otherwise semi-acceptable power balance. You rant and rave against marines and BA in every thread because you play the two most competitive, powerful armies (in an apparently powergaming meta) for a casual Saturday afternoon game. Guess what, most of us don't. Marines (probably even BA) can stand up to any other army just fine with a competant player behind them. Im a "to each his own" kind of guy, I just don't think it proper to try to dissuade newboots from playing marines or BA because of unsavory experiences YOU'VE had in what sounds like a very, very stacked/competitive meta.

And if I like the rules for a model/unit or how it plays, I honestly don't care if it costs 20-30 points more than it should. I'm sure I'm not the only one. So when you say if a model is overcosted it has no plusses, well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Me and my friends play with *gasp* terrain in our games, so combination of strategy and tactics wins the day not the guy with the most cost efficent boomsticks.


Blood Angels. Why?
BAAL REDATORS. Twin Linked rending assault cannons and two heavy bolters on a FAST tank. Chews up and spits out most infantry and if you move fast and catch your opponent his armor too. Oh it gets scout.

Petrov wrote:
Me and my friends play with *gasp* terrain in our games, so combination of strategy and tactics wins the day not the guy with the most cost efficent boomsticks.


Blood Angels. Why?
BAAL REDATORS. Twin Linked rending assault cannons and two heavy bolters on a FAST tank. Chews up and spits out most infantry and if you move fast and catch your opponent his armor too. Oh it gets scout.

I hear that. Add in a Furioso Libby, a Fragcannon Furiouso with blood talons and a HF in a drop pod, fast vindicators, Mephiston, melta pistols, the only unit in 6th that can assault out of deepstrike and an entire jump army that can have FC and 5+ FNP and there is quite a lot to like about Blood Angels.

BaalSNAFU wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Trust me, I know what I'm doing from my record against other marine lists.

I've beaten the vaunted C:SM White Scars with BA multiple times. You know what White Scars CAN'T do? Melt my whole list from 36" while riding in invincible skimmer tanks. Marines don't have easy access to ignore cover and grav doesn't negate FNP. If Tau and Eldar are what my key opponents are using, how can they NOT be the standard? The standard in any sport league is the BEST team. The standard in military affairs is the BEST tank or the BEST fighter. Not the mediocre one. Tau and Eldar are the standard, by GW edict. Not my edict.

If something is overcosted, by DEFINITION, it doesn't have enough upside. Not enough plusses. BA were already overcosted in 5th no matter what anyone said. The ONLY thing that made them feared was the durability of AV 11 vehicles in 5th. FNP was easier to bypass and SW and IG were trump lists. Now, in 6th, BA are beyond overcosted. I'm thinking that C:SM is still overcosted since most fancy marine units up the offense, but not the defenses.

Let me put it this way, how about instead of calling everything not Tau or Eldar gak, how about we call em what they are. OP, the broken exceptions to an otherwise semi-acceptable power balance. You rant and rave against marines and BA in every thread because you play the two most competitive, powerful armies (in an apparently powergaming meta) for a casual Saturday afternoon game. Guess what, most of us don't. Marines (probably even BA) can stand up to any other army just fine with a competant player behind them. Im a "to each his own" kind of guy, I just don't think it proper to try to dissuade newboots from playing marines or BA because of unsavory experiences YOU'VE had in what sounds like a very, very stacked/competitive meta.

And if I like the rules for a model/unit or how it plays, I honestly don't care if it costs 20-30 points more than it should. I'm sure I'm not the only one. So when you say if a model is overcosted it has no plusses, well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

You forgot daemons. Marines really can't beat Daemons,either.

That being said, I'd pick C:SM over BA every day and twice on Friday. I think the 6th BA codex is going to be a lot like Tyranids; kind of a fail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaalSNAFU wrote:

Petrov wrote:
Me and my friends play with *gasp* terrain in our games, so combination of strategy and tactics wins the day not the guy with the most cost efficent boomsticks.


Blood Angels. Why?
BAAL REDATORS. Twin Linked rending assault cannons and two heavy bolters on a FAST tank. Chews up and spits out most infantry and if you move fast and catch your opponent his armor too. Oh it gets scout.

I hear that. Add in a Furioso Libby, a Fragcannon Furiouso with blood talons and a HF in a drop pod, fast vindicators, Mephiston, melta pistols, the only unit in 6th that can assault out of deepstrike and an entire jump army that can have FC and 5+ FNP and there is quite a lot to like about Blood Angels.

Fragnoughts can't have blood talons. Blood talons aren't even that good due to lack of good delivery methods.

Vindicators can't kill what marines really need to kill now. There's a ton of ways to kill units with 2+ armor. Vindicators effectively have AV 11. They are not good for the price.

Assaulting out of DS is not worth what VV cost. They are hilariously bad.

Baal predators with ranged weapons are okay, but again, is useless against opponent that is meched up. BA models cost so much that it's basically impossible to build even a passable TAC list.

Sorry, but BA aren't competitive... They are a crap load of fun though. DA are more competitive.

Martel732 wrote:
I think the 6th BA codex is going to be a lot like Tyranids; kind of a fail.

You'd hate it if BA got a good update

I like the BA codex. It's got different builds with fun units, and the model range is probably the best out of the Marine dexes.

It is showing it's age though, and in the crazy world of 6th/Apoc 40k it's a non-starter against the power builds.

Still lots of fun though - both playing and painting.

niv-mizzet wrote:

Additionally, we have the oldest living (non-dreadnought) loyalist space marine as our chapter master.

Dante is such a bad-ass. I really hope they make him and Astaroth playable with the 6E update. I forget which of the two of them was I6 which is totally pointless now that he's forced to use an unwieldy weapon. Totally defeats the purpose of being I6. All they gotta do is make the axe a chapter relic so it's a power axe that doesn't have unwieldy and bam, instantly pretty awesome again.

Bartali wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the 6th BA codex is going to be a lot like Tyranids; kind of a fail.

You'd hate it if BA got a good update

I like the BA codex. It's got different builds with fun units, and the model range is probably the best out of the Marine dexes.

It is showing it's age though, and in the crazy world of 6th/Apoc 40k it's a non-starter against the power builds.

Still lots of fun though - both playing and painting.

At this point, I can't imagine what a good BA update would look like. I would like to have a legitimate shot against Taudar, but not be overpowering. Probably impossible, though.

Martel732 wrote:

Bartali wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the 6th BA codex is going to be a lot like Tyranids; kind of a fail.

You'd hate it if BA got a good update

I like the BA codex. It's got different builds with fun units, and the model range is probably the best out of the Marine dexes.

It is showing it's age though, and in the crazy world of 6th/Apoc 40k it's a non-starter against the power builds.

Still lots of fun though - both playing and painting.

At this point, I can't imagine what a good BA update would look like. I would like to have a legitimate shot against Taudar, but not be overpowering. Probably impossible, though.

Point fix and assaulting after deepstrike I think would do the trick.

They're not getting chapter-wise assault from DS. In fact, our VV will lose the ability.

Martel732 wrote:
They're not getting chapter-wise assault from DS. In fact, our VV will lose the ability.

And how exactly do you know that?

Admittedly, it's conjecture, but no other meqs have received such a drastic rule. All other marines' VV have lost assault from DS.

I say we should be able to buy assault ramos for our rhinos/razorbacks for 15-20 pts. I think that would do quite a bit of good without taking it too far... that is if we can't assault from DS.

We're probably not getting that, either. They're not going to let us go back to 5th tactics. This is why I fear this codex is going to tank. I can't imagine something that would both make BA good and be something GW would actually put in.

Martel732 wrote:

Bartali wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the 6th BA codex is going to be a lot like Tyranids; kind of a fail.

You'd hate it if BA got a good update

I like the BA codex. It's got different builds with fun units, and the model range is probably the best out of the Marine dexes.

It is showing it's age though, and in the crazy world of 6th/Apoc 40k it's a non-starter against the power builds.

Still lots of fun though - both playing and painting.

At this point, I can't imagine what a good BA update would look like. I would like to have a legitimate shot against Taudar, but not be overpowering. Probably impossible, though.

Okay: We can make a few logical conclusion about the new BA codex.

FIrst of all. We can expect them to get a point cost reduction. (( Why? Because it was done in both the DA and C:SM codex))
Second: They will probably get Flak missiles (( again because both DA and C:SM got it))
Third: They probably will gain access to the Hunter/Stalker

Anything else I could say would be pure guesses on my part.

Now I'm a DA Player. So back to the original topic:
One of the best things about DA: Is just how versatile the army as a whole is. You can run all terminators, you can run all bikes, you can run straight power armor. Or Mix and match as you desire.

I'm not sure the BA will even get grav.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not sure the BA will even get grav.

God you're friggin depressing. From now on I'm gonna call you Marvin732

 SRSFACE wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

Additionally, we have the oldest living (non-dreadnought) loyalist space marine as our chapter master.

Dante is such a bad-ass. I really hope they make him and Astaroth playable with the 6E update. I forget which of the two of them was I6 which is totally pointless now that he's forced to use an unwieldy weapon. Totally defeats the purpose of being I6. All they gotta do is make the axe a chapter relic so it's a power axe that doesn't have unwieldy and bam, instantly pretty awesome again.

It's Dante, although they both have high init with unwieldy axes.
I said to someone else that they should at least get a special rule where they ignore unwieldy on a turn that they charge or something.
It would definitely be nice to either not pay 225ish for guys that can't hold their own against any other model in their price range, or pay that and get models that can.

His I6 isn't totally useless... pretty useful for those sweeping advances.

 Orblivion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not sure the BA will even get grav.

God you're friggin depressing. From now on I'm gonna call you Marvin732

I just report the news. GW writes it.

BA have lots of cool toys, tricks, characters, and some fluff. I'd pick them over DA. Haters gonna hate, rules change, so follow the rule of cool when it comes to choosing armies.

The drawbacks being that if you buy a codex now it will most likely be replaced within a year. Also, they seem like they'd be boring to paint.

I honestly don't expect a new BA codex to change much except the usual trends of points cost reduction and possibly some large model that costs 75 bucks. They have about as much of a chance of getting assault from DS and assault rhinos as they do of getting jump pack centurions equipped with blood talons and flamestorm cannons.

Blood angels can are good for assaulting as they can deep strike land raiders.

Blood angels all the way. Why coz their my home team of course and coz their fluff is phat - Nuff said