Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Orlando, the "chain restaurant" comparison is a very good one, and that actually expresses quite well what I've felt about some of what CMON does. In that light, it actually bothers me a lot less... just not my preference, but you're right, some folks just are going to flock to it expecting a good deal, etc. So yeah, nice analogy!

I can't help but disagree about "chain restaurant."

They've got the best Zombie game on the market. By far.

They made Sedition Wars with McVey, one of the most respected names in the industry (even though results were mixed).

Everything they have is reasonably priced and quite well done.

What's "chain restaurant" about that? I guess I'm missing the analogy.

Maybe a more upscale chain restaurant?

Like a Macaroni Grill, Elephant Bar, Olive Garden type versus some place like Denny's or Carrow's.

A bit more quality for a little bit more, but make you feel like you got your money's worth.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Maybe a more upscale chain restaurant?

Like a Macaroni Grill, Elephant Bar, Olive Garden type versus some place like Denny's or Carrow's.

A bit more quality for a little bit more, but make you feel like you got your money's worth.

I don't want to live in a world where any of those are considered upscale.

Yuck.

 cincydooley wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Maybe a more upscale chain restaurant?

Like a Macaroni Grill, Elephant Bar, Olive Garden type versus some place like Denny's or Carrow's.

A bit more quality for a little bit more, but make you feel like you got your money's worth.

I don't want to live in a world where any of those are considered upscale.

Yuck.

That's why we don't eat out!

Doesn't hurt that my wife loves cooking and baking either.

Luckily not my brand of root beer. Saves me money and time from pressing the refresh button every 2 minutes

I predict

Dozens of People accusing CMON being a bunch of shysters.

Dozens more will tell them "if you don't like it, don't contribute" and stroke CMON's ego.

Complain about not enough bang for the buck.

Too many stretch goals you have to pay for.

Delays.

Quality control

lack of activity in the comments and updates post kickstarter.

It's like my family at Christmas time. People continue to go expecting a good time but know it will end up ugly because someone ALWAYS brings up politics, inheritance or dirty laundry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:
I can't help but disagree about "chain restaurant."

They've got the best Zombie game on the market. By far.

They made Sedition Wars with McVey, one of the most respected names in the industry (even though results were mixed).

Everything they have is reasonably priced and quite well done.

What's "chain restaurant" about that? I guess I'm missing the analogy.

Depends how you are looking at it.

Zombicide is a great game. Components are solid, the miniatures OK, nothing super great, but for a board game and the amount you got no one should be expecting resin quality pieces.

Zombicide is like Jimmy Johns. Pretty damn good for the price and better than other chain sub shops.

Sedition Wars is like Taco Bell.

Advertisements drew you in.

You looked at when you got it.

You Knew at one time it came from something living, but not too sure what the living thing really was or what part of it came from.

The results were Biological hazard warning diarrhea.

I might have been willing to go for this, but with shipping being a giant blank canvas, I feel like I may as well wait for retail.

Unless the bonus' are huge... but then so will the postage be <sigh>

I'm suprised that those figures get a pass. They look like something out of the taco bell dog, or Mickey D's happy meal toys.

It's a chibi type board game. Not a miniatures wargame.

I never thought I'd be going down this particular rabbit hole, but they're not really the typical chibi/SD style - they have the same rough proportions, but retain most of the detail of normally-scaled stuff. This causes them to look a little more like 'bobbleheads', and the effect is actually quite off-putting to me. They're certainly not badly sculpted at a technical level, but are definitely not 'cute' in the same way as the SDE stuff and I think are targeting a slightly different market segment.

The strange thing is that the boardgame market is going to go from having just a few co-op dungeon bash miniatures games to a total surfeit in the space of about a year! Will be interesting to see how this one plays.

I'm trying to figure out why they decided to do a not-SDE game. Was the fallout between them and Soda Pop over Relic Knights really that bad?

Theres been a lot of speculation, but I don't think anyone knows for sure. That being said, it seems logical that there was some fallout over it and this is the product of said fallout.

I actually think this looks cooler than SDE, though I will probably just wait till retail.

Well I have always wondered why there had not been an SDE kickstarter campaign. It always seemed like an obvious success.

 Azazelx wrote:
I might have been willing to go for this, but with shipping being a giant blank canvas, I feel like I may as well wait for retail.

Honestly, I don't understand the complaint on the shipping. If they would have included it but added for RoW, peopel would have flipped their gak for 'damned Americans getting free shipping'.

The truth is people want free shipping, world-wide and project expense, and that is unreasonable.

This is a pretty decent comment about shipping IMHO:

We will ship your rewards at our cost to our international hubs. Depending on where in the world you are, we will either ship you from our hub in Germany (EU backers), China (Asia Pacific backers), or Atlanta (USA and the rest of the world). As a rough estimate, the game will cost about $11 to ship in the USA, about $20-$25 in the EU (due to VAT), and $11 to Hong Kong all the way up to $40 for Australia, but this may increase or decrease based on the quantity of stretch goals we might unlock and your carrier choices.

This is hardly a 'blank canvas'. Those prices are 'in line' with what it costs, and if you don't like it... then don't blame them, blame your local postage/taxes/and such. It costs money to move stuff around the planet.

I much rather do shipping outside the KS for 2 reasons:
1: People pay what they owe opposed to the perceptions 'americans get free shipping' or 'RoW getting free shipping and drastically tanking the project'. I do not think it is unreasonable to pay for shipping.
2. Kickstarter doesn't pull 5% out of shipping and Paypal you can invoice just shipping and it is 'taxed' at a much lower rate. Means money paid for shipping actually goes for shipping and the vendor doesn't have to expect to eat 10%ish of his collections for shipping for moving money around.

I just don't think shipping is an issue unless you live in Antarctica and expect free shipping at the expense of all the other backers and the project.

...And you don't see why people, without complaining about shipping fees per se, would at least want to know what it would cost them before they committed to paying for it? Rightey then.

 tre manor wrote:

Well I have always wondered why there had not been an SDE kickstarter campaign. It always seemed like an obvious success.

Rumor has that an SDE 2nd Ed KS is coming this year.

They're delaying launch due to obvious reaons.

 Bolognesus wrote:
...And you don't see why people, without complaining about shipping fees per se, would at least want to know what it would cost them before they committed to paying for it? Rightey then.

And how can anyone promise 'set in stone' shipping fees for a box size and weight which is 'yet to be determined' via shipping avenues which are always in flux due to shipping costs? It says right on the front page of the KS explicitly what the shipping costs would be based upon the current size of the package.

I think their statement was pretty upfront on what it would cost to ship... I don't know what more they can provide as they have been pretty clear telling what it would cost to ship the package as it is 'right now' with 'todays' cost with the expectation it will go up based upon size and shipping costs.

The only person who demands a set-in-stone shipping cost is someone who wants the project to 'eat it' when it changes the size of the box or international shipping changes. Or want other people to pick up the cost for RoW shipping.

What part of 'they told you the estimated shipping fees' for something which can't be guaranteed do you not understand? If you need set-in-stone shipping fees and don't trust the vendor, then don't pledge?

Basically all I see is RoW people who want KS where they get free shipping and don't have to actually pay what it costs to ship to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

 tre manor wrote:

Well I have always wondered why there had not been an SDE kickstarter campaign. It always seemed like an obvious success.

Rumor has that an SDE 2nd Ed KS is coming this year.

They're delaying launch due to obvious reaons.

You mean the fact we haven't gotten our Relic Knights SDE products yet? Asking for more money while failing to fulfill previous KS hasn't stopped other companies, why should it stop them?

nkelsch wrote:

You mean the fact we haven't gotten our Relic Knights SDE products yet? Asking for more money while failing to fulfill previous KS hasn't stopped other companies, why should it stop them?

Honestly? It doesn't STOP them from doing it. But I think they've realized that A) they need to get some goodwill back from those two projects, and B) they simply don't have the time to put into it right now.

Plus, they have the Forgotten King stuff coming out, which is really pretty darn cool.

We've been playtesting it and the new monsters are fun, and there are some new rules that are really interesting.

I'm also a pretty big fan of the Centaur hero.

 cincydooley wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

You mean the fact we haven't gotten our Relic Knights SDE products yet? Asking for more money while failing to fulfill previous KS hasn't stopped other companies, why should it stop them?

Honestly? It doesn't STOP them from doing it. But I think they've realized that A) they need to get some goodwill back from those two projects, and B) they simply don't have the time to put into it right now.

Plus, they have the Forgotten King stuff coming out, which is really pretty darn cool.

We've been playtesting it and the new monsters are fun, and there are some new rules that are really interesting.

I'm also a pretty big fan of the Centaur hero.

Oh I will insta-buy any SDE stuff they release... But I would be kinda annoyed with a SDE KS right now. But of course, they would probably force my hand via exclusives.

nkelsch wrote:

Oh I will insta-buy any SDE stuff they release... But I would be kinda annoyed with a SDE KS right now. But of course, they would probably force my hand via exclusives.

It'll be interesting to see how they run it, as it almost assuredly won't involved CMoN, and thusly could have potentially fewer exclusives.

Personally, I think there's room in the hobby for both games, and I'll support both games.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm trying to figure out why they decided to do a not-SDE game. Was the fallout between them and Soda Pop over Relic Knights really that bad?

I know, right? And with an SDE kickstarter coming later this year, if I want a chibi dungeon adventure board game, I'll definitely be waiting for that one (although given Soda Pop's track record, I hope it's "done" or close to it and not just in a development state).

hold on a second........ It is my understanding that CMoN handles the production AND fulfillment of the campaigns for the products they fund on kickstarter. I do nto know all the details of their arrangement but in so far as I am informed that is the norm for CMoN projects. Is there any public info to the contrary?

Did Soda Pop do something to stuff up the Relic Knights campaign? I really have not followed it so I do nto know what the story is there. I imagine it cannto be good for either party involved though.

They were supposedly very late in getting CMON the files for various designs to get them tooled. It was/is a bit of a clusterfeth on both sides afaik.

nkelsch wrote:
If you need set-in-stone shipping fees and don't trust the vendor, then don't pledge?

Why do people always say stupid things like this? Yes, people can just not pledge. But getting people to pledge is their fething job. If they think that shipping to Australia on the $150 bundle will cost ~$40, guaranteeing that it will cost no more than, say, $50 creates confidence that would translate into increased sales.

Well it certainly looks like CMON is out of the picture as far as Super Dungeon Explore is concerned

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/582058.page

SDE: Forgotten King is up on KS in March, and being done by Soda Pop and Ninja Division (their team-up with Cypher that's involved in the Robotech projects with Palladium)

we might even see the SDE KS start overlap with the end of this one (if not it'll be close)

Wow... Did not see THAT Coming.

@Tre - Just sent you a PM.

nkelsch wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:
...And you don't see why people, without complaining about shipping fees per se, would at least want to know what it would cost them before they committed to paying for it? Rightey then.

And how can anyone promise 'set in stone' shipping fees for a box size and weight which is 'yet to be determined' via shipping avenues which are always in flux due to shipping costs? It says right on the front page of the KS explicitly what the shipping costs would be based upon the current size of the package.

I think their statement was pretty upfront on what it would cost to ship... I don't know what more they can provide as they have been pretty clear telling what it would cost to ship the package as it is 'right now' with 'todays' cost with the expectation it will go up based upon size and shipping costs.

The only person who demands a set-in-stone shipping cost is someone who wants the project to 'eat it' when it changes the size of the box or international shipping changes. Or want other people to pick up the cost for RoW shipping.

What part of 'they told you the estimated shipping fees' for something which can't be guaranteed do you not understand? If you need set-in-stone shipping fees and don't trust the vendor, then don't pledge?

Basically all I see is RoW people who want KS where they get free shipping and don't have to actually pay what it costs to ship to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

 tre manor wrote:

Well I have always wondered why there had not been an SDE kickstarter campaign. It always seemed like an obvious success.

Rumor has that an SDE 2nd Ed KS is coming this year.

They're delaying launch due to obvious reaons.

You mean the fact we haven't gotten our Relic Knights SDE products yet? Asking for more money while failing to fulfill previous KS hasn't stopped other companies, why should it stop them?

Baloney. We both know project creators of this stripe know pretty dang well what the "heavy" components (board, box, any paper/cardboard stuff) will be, and what it will weigh. Even you couldn't keep your face straight arguing that a few plastic models more or less will make a significant change in shipping weight.
And really, how the feth do you refuse to see that this ***Is*** arguing that we will "refuse to pledge" if a manufacturer can't keep his ducks in a row sufficiently to at least get this right?
Screw the whole "wheeeh, RoW backers want us to pay for their shipping" argument (and its proponents, while we're at it); we'd like reasonable shipping set. that will be more RoW than CONUS - fine. No more than reasonable, actually. But a seller not quoting shipping until backers are an entirely captive party to the agreement, having already paid for the product, creates a lack of incentive to be efficient/creative in shipping at least; it'll encourage them to shift the 'grey area' costs (packing/sorting related) into paid shipping services as much as possible, to detriment of backers, if nothing else.
Besides,it is simply a risk many backers will refuse to take.

If you even think of bringing up US postage hikes - I had the idjits at CMoN ship me a ZC S2 W1 package from the US instead of the UK -- by courier. which is what they seem to always prefer. The only effect the ridiculous USPS postage hikes will have is on CONUS shipping (because if a courier/not quite as USPS-like dominant party decides to hike fees like that, they're simply out of business). I know from our shipping department what the price increase rates for UPS/DHL (and a few others besides!) intl shipping have been - and they're pretty predictable, especially compared to USPS's monster price hikes.

The idea you seem to have that it would be improper for a project creator to have made provisions for certain risks/setbacks such as, oh, I dunno, cost increases in a significant cost component of the project, is frankly ludicrous.
It is entirely reasonable to "eat" that, in fact, a properly run, even reasonably sophisticated commercial party would have such risks/costs incorporated in the final price - precisely because this bullgak will put off plenty of potential buyers.


Funny to see though how the trend of you deciding who is Wrong® and being your usual self about it continues regardless of subject matter.

I think the "set in stone" shipping is actually hugely irresponsible for a project if they have plans for stretch goals and purchaseable add ons that could significantly affect weight/box dimensions.

In fact, from everything I've read, shipping is the one area that nearly all successful KSes eat it, and in a major way.

Waiting until the end for shipping makes a lot of sense for me, to be honest, especially since they've given estimates already. Could they do an entire excel sheet that lists how much additional shipping cost an add on or stretch goal will be? Probably. And maybe they will. I'm not going to begrudge them on Day 1 for it, though, especially when they DID give estimates.

I'd rather wait until they knew how much each package is going to weigh with all stretches rather than ANY company lose money because of shipping.

Have we been spoiled in the past by free shipping? Oh absolutely. But I guess I just don't understand the irritation here.

I think CMON is also probably making sure that they don't get hit with price hikes by the postal service(s) which are coming much more frequently

If they didn't have an estimate I'd be concerned, but since they do I'm not bothered