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You can add the funds now and then when the pledge manager comes out, you sort out the different levels/pledges/add-ons you are looking to get.

Cheers for the response drazz.

Can you also add/pay for the add-ons when the pledge manager comes out?

Usually, yes. Most KS companies will take more funds after the KS period, even allowing paypal.

The downfall to that is the funds don;t add to the KS campaign and thus not toward any stretch goals. For the company, the benefit is that the money does not go through KS and they don't have to pay out 10% to Amazon.

You should be able to,... They allowed it in MYTH.

The big difference is that it does not count to the overall total and the ability to unlock stretch goals.

Edit - (D'oh,.... Ninja'd)

 DaveC wrote:
It's a post made by Mercs before the KS in the Myth comments it did show some arrogance on their part competition is competition regardless of genre and well those other projects that aren't competition are now ahead of them.

Also the more I see of Recon and it's design the more I wonder about the Sci-Fi tag itself A lot of it feels more modern era than sci-fi to me.

Creator MERCS Miniatures on Feb 27
@Davinh Our thinking is along the same line. The competition out there is Fantasy. There is no Sci-Fi to compete with and (in our opinion) no KS right now is controlling the marketplace. Yes, there are some big names... but I think we have earned the right to be called a big name. The current KS seem to be rather slow and the momentum uninspired. And as you said, there will always be competition; right now, however, there is no competition in our genre.
If the competition comes down to the best product and minis, I think we win hands down. If it comes down to the best game, we'll have rules and videos available day one for you to make that decision.
We'll reevaluate over the weekend and make a decision early next week.
All the testers playing the game LOVE it. I think it will surprise people on the fence...our stretch goals are pretty good too .

This makes a lot of sense.

I now understand their fans' mentality.

A radiant one as it seems.

Thanks for the responses drazz and yamoto.

Point taken regarding adding to the pledge upfront and helping towards SG's

Lets address that elephant in the room, this kickstarter is a bad deal, for what it is supposed to be.

First of all, lets see the product itself

For 60$ you get 12 different sculpts, 20 miniatures of the 43 needed according to the creator, two categories of them, the most common and more numerous, are not represented by anything other than a counter, as I said several times before, the industry standard has been shaped to either have only the heroes represented as miniatures in games like Talisman, or for dungeon crawlers go full miniatures, "light wargames" or simpler boardgame wargames of late also come with full miniature representation, anyway FFG a really big boy in the boardgame industry got huge flack when they released Decent 2.0 with tokens representing their lieutenants and it was a much anticipated game essentially a second version of the really popular decent and did all the "good things" like including cards for all the models from the previous series.

If you care about the boardgame, then it is a big issue, both as value of the game and its long term survivability in the genre, if you see it as a discount to get miniatures for Mercs its a good deal, 2 5 men squads for 60$ instead of 65$ plus the "wastage" or "bonus" of having a half baked dungeon crawler tossed in it, but this is not what this kickstarter is supposed to be about right? I am mystified on why they do not pass the kickstarter money on the core product to make it worthwhile when it reaches retail, I was not that critical about it on Myth because A it was a side thing I backed, heavily in the end, but a side thing never the less and I assumed they would do so as this is what most do in kickstarter (they are the only ones who do not do it to my knowledge), I do not want to hear cost excuses, the real cost is making the sculpts and the molds for them, after that its pennies added.

The stretch goals are bad, the first one in particular for 70k (funding at 50k), you get 2 sculpts and 6 minis, that should have been in the box anyway and not even 11 as the game designers feel there should be, one should wonder why two sculpts need more than the game itself, all expansions (barring one) are payed add ons even thought the stretch goals for them are particularly fat, 25-50k for half a game whose funding goal delivers 4 times as much as the expansion.

While on payed add ons, what you are expected to pay to get the boxed game in the acceptable components wise category far outshines the 'free stuff" and no attempts to make stretch goals and fold them into the game, making it a better product has been attempted.

A side subject is it does not feel sci fi at all, near modern at best, the Mercs themselves look so out of place in the boardgame environment it is puzzling.

Communication is bad and reaction is bad, many feel their questions, valid or not have been ignored, fans are left to brush aside whoever does not walk the "extremely positive about it" line, its been what, 5 days and the 1,5k backers vacant places have not been filled and almost each day we have a negative drop in backers and pledges, which is barely covered by the end of the day, if one looks closely too the ones leaving were heavily invested too.

At the start of this kickstarter I was wondering why they do not grasp the opportunity to bring their MERCs sculpts up to date, many are almost a decade old and some are not that good, not abd, but not the best out there, now I am concerned about more basic things.

Long rant, maybe, but I would like to see this succeed and pointing out what I see as flaws is what I can do at the moment.

I think criticizing the amount of plastic in the box is dubious, if only because the more product there is in the box, the higher cost the box will be at retail.

If they have a target $$ they want to set as the MSRP, then it makes sense not to add EVERYTHING into the box. They did that with MYTH. And if you go into it with that understanding, I think it makes a whole lot of sense.

 cincydooley wrote:
I think criticizing the amount of plastic in the box is dubious, if only because the more product there is in the box, the higher cost the box will be at retail.

If they have a target $$ they want to set as the MSRP, then it makes sense not to add EVERYTHING into the box. They did that with MYTH. And if you go into it with that understanding, I think it makes a whole lot of sense.

I have to agree with you 100% Cincy. Except that right now, compared to comparable "board games" going to market from KS right now, this game feels like $60. But it won't leave the shelves in most gamestores even for $48 on its own merit. So, Mercs isn't even giving us a discount on the two games. If they plan on this being $75 or $80, they need to get this game comparable to SDE, Shadows of Brimstone or something else. As far as the KS goes, if this is at no discount, that they REALLY want me to pay them RETAIL cost, they need to double the miniatures they are fronting to even get my attention then. If they want me to get in at the $200 level, they need to froth at the mouth about all of these expansion kits and more than double the pennies on the dollar miniatures in the KS.

Right now, they keep telling me how great their SGs are while standing in front of a barrel they want me to bend over. RRT already has me over the barrel, and that one was too good to pass up. This one not even worth the $1 to get emails from them...while I agree with some of what Psychotic is saying, I'm not seeing any of the KS goodness that Myth got and all the Mercs fans keep talking about. I think their name change to Megacon might be rather poignant given this KS and their smugness.

Well, I think this marks pretty close to 24 hours with a zero sum balance after the minuses earlier today.

I will totally agree that it is a different animal,... Everyone wants to compare it to MYTH,.... How many minis etc.

I'm sure that the costs of more distinct molds is sure to change the economics quite a bit.

The other criticism about altering the base box contents,... I know that in MYTH the success definitely played into upgrading the component quality (board type, linen card finishes, etc.) even though they did not add any minis to the basic retail box beyond those stated in the KS,... in Recon they have said that they are hoping to produce the MERC heroes in a different plastic (all the other stuff just like MYTH),... But who know what that requires,... Is that a more expensive mold making process?

I guess the economics of these games is beyond my familiarity. What I can tell is that for whatever reason, this is a game that is outside of the mold of MYTH and it just doesn't measure up when you want to make a direct comparison,.... Fair or otherwise

I am not expecting them to match Myth in quantity, I am expecting them to deliver a game that fits the minimum expectations for a boardgame of its kind.

When I say pass the things from Myth to the retail product, I am not expecting them to pass the entire model count produced from the kickstarter, that would be insane to demand, or expect somebody to demand, but adding a few more minions (not much), a second boss for variety, the bag which is somewhat important or the 3D lairs, would make it a far better product, including the alternative sex heroes would be a nice touch.

How much more would extra secfor models cost in terms of production? I mean, honestly, if they were tooled, you could just include them in the box for minimal increase in production costs. I'm not sure, but does anyone know what the RRP for this product is likely to be?

Also, have they addressed the elephant in the room? Will international backers suddenly get shafted on this like they did for Myth?

Wellllllp, I've Azazeled my pledgzezel.

I was hoping to latch onto another person's pledge like some kind of noble kickstarter parasite, but I guess MERCS just hate the idea of making money, so nope. Well, maybe for the drones. But no Robo makes me sad.

drazz wrote:
Usually, yes. Most KS companies will take more funds after the KS period, even allowing paypal.

The downfall to that is the funds don;t add to the KS campaign and thus not toward any stretch goals. For the company, the benefit is that the money does not go through KS and they don't have to pay out 10% to Amazon.

10%??

Where did you get that? Amazon & Paypal fees are very similar.

Paypal transaction fees


Amazon Payments transaction fees


Indeed, the fees are, I think, identical (in UK prices).

 Catyrpelius wrote:


I don't think what were getting is a horrible deal, but for the return I my investment I'll probably end up pulling my pledge and giving it to a smaller company rather then help out one of the self proclaimed big boys.

I need the money from my pulled MERCS pledge to buy Games Workshop products.

True story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sining wrote:
How much more would extra secfor models cost in terms of production? I mean, honestly, if they were tooled, you could just include them in the box for minimal increase in production costs. I'm not sure, but does anyone know what the RRP for this product is likely to be?

Also, have they addressed the elephant in the room? Will international backers suddenly get shafted on this like they did for Myth?

Look at the number of add-on expansions and such. You don't need to ask them - you already know the answer.

 Salacious Greed wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I think criticizing the amount of plastic in the box is dubious, if only because the more product there is in the box, the higher cost the box will be at retail.

If they have a target $$ they want to set as the MSRP, then it makes sense not to add EVERYTHING into the box. They did that with MYTH. And if you go into it with that understanding, I think it makes a whole lot of sense.

I have to agree with you 100% Cincy. Except that right now, compared to comparable "board games" going to market from KS right now, this game feels like $60. But it won't leave the shelves in most gamestores even for $48 on its own merit. So, Mercs isn't even giving us a discount on the two games. If they plan on this being $75 or $80, they need to get this game comparable to SDE, Shadows of Brimstone or something else. As far as the KS goes, if this is at no discount, that they REALLY want me to pay them RETAIL cost, they need to double the miniatures they are fronting to even get my attention then. If they want me to get in at the $200 level, they need to froth at the mouth about all of these expansion kits and more than double the pennies on the dollar miniatures in the KS.

Right now, they keep telling me how great their SGs are while standing in front of a barrel they want me to bend over. RRT already has me over the barrel, and that one was too good to pass up. This one not even worth the $1 to get emails from them...while I agree with some of what Psychotic is saying, I'm not seeing any of the KS goodness that Myth got and all the Mercs fans keep talking about. I think their name change to Megacon might be rather poignant given this KS and their smugness.

Well, I think this marks pretty close to 24 hours with a zero sum balance after the minuses earlier today.

Another comparable story to look at is what happened to Privateer Press and their Level 7 line.

Level 7 Escape was a Board Game produced by a Minatuers Company with out any minis, it was entierly counters. It disappointed alot of people, coupled with a horrible rulebook it turned alot of people off. Fast forward to Level 7 Omega Protocal and you have a good game with good minatures, but so many people got burned by Escape that Omega Protocal doesn't sell worth a damn. Ultimatly this is a small industry and Gamers have a long memory.

 Azazelx wrote:


I need the money from my pulled MERCS pledge to buy Games Workshop products.

True story.

Heh. Good reason.

For me its the Mierce Kickstarter. I'm seriously debating pulling my MERCS pledge, not because of all the Eeyore-ish reasons documented in this thread, but because I'm probably pulling all my other pledges from _all_ other projects right now to funnel into Mierce. I already dropped a few other projects, this is one of the last ones remaining.

Is that Amazon fee in addition to the 5% of the project they get anyway?

Maybe the 5% cut, then various other fees (Credit Cards?) add up to close to 10%?

 Alpharius wrote:
Is that Amazon fee in addition to the 5% of the project they get anyway?

Maybe the 5% cut, then various other fees (Credit Cards?) add up to close to 10%?

All the fees addup to 10%, Kickstarter, Amazon Payments and Credit Card Fees.

The way I understand it, Amazon Payments doesn't accept Paypal because they aren't willing to negitiate their fee.

I'm not planning on pulling my pledge or anything. I like the concept enough that I'm happy with the current reward levels.

However, with the disappointing day yesterday and today not looking any better, I'm starting to wonder what's up with the Mercs guys. They've been really quiet(more than usual) and haven't even posted the videos they where promising yesterday.

You can't really call this a valley anymore. Unless you are talking about Death Valley. I hope they do something soon, or else they might face a backer implosion. If they don't make the 400K SG in the next few days, I don't think the deal will be good enough to stimulate a final funding boom a the end.

MERCS had 1 new backer yesterday and a total of $34 added to the campaign.

I hope this helps open some eyes over there?

 Alpharius wrote:
Is that Amazon fee in addition to the 5% of the project they get anyway?

Maybe the 5% cut, then various other fees (Credit Cards?) add up to close to 10%?

How would Amazon get 5% of the project?

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Is that Amazon fee in addition to the 5% of the project they get anyway?

Maybe the 5% cut, then various other fees (Credit Cards?) add up to close to 10%?

How would Amazon get 5% of the project?

Kickstarter uses Amazon Payments for credit card processing.

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Is that Amazon fee in addition to the 5% of the project they get anyway?

Maybe the 5% cut, then various other fees (Credit Cards?) add up to close to 10%?

How would Amazon get 5% of the project?

Kickstarter uses Amazon Payments for credit card processing.

Yes. For which Amazon charges 3.4% + a fixed fee per transaction (some of which, in turn, is used to pay the credit card companies, I would assume).

Credit Card fees are included in Amazons fee, similar to how credit cards charge any merchant offering payment by credit card (though presumably, Amazon, being the etailer-giant it is, has a nicer deal with them than the stores in your local mall).

And that is identical to the fee Paypal charges, whether on Indiegogo, the GW/Mantic/Wyrd webstore or, hypothetically, on Kickstarter, if Kickstarter would go Indiegogo and switched to Paypal.

Google Wallet also used the same fees: https://checkout.google.com/seller/fees.html

Most of the smaller ones, like 2Checkout, are more expensive https://www.2checkout.com/pricing

I thought this:

Fees

If your project is successfully funded, Kickstarter will apply a 5% fee to the funds raised, and Amazon will apply credit card processing fees (between 3-5%). If funding isn't successful, there are no fees.

was common knowledge?

Unless your confusion was because I admittedly wasn't real clear when I said "they" (meaning Kickstarter here) and was just looking to find out the entire amount that a creator won't be getting.

Apologies for any confusion I may have inadvertently caused.

Well, it is all a bit muddled

Drazz, which was the additional post I quoted, said that paying Paypal, project founders avoid the 10% charged by Amazon.

In response to which I responded that (a) Amazon-fees are much lower, and (b) there are no savings relative to Amazon, as their fees are identical to Paypal.

After that, you replied...

Is that Amazon fee in addition to the 5% of the project they get anyway?

... and in the context of said discussion, I was assuming that "they" refers to the subject in the sentence, as the whole discussion revolved around a 10% "Amazon-fee" as per Drazz quote.

So presumably Drazz also meant "5% to Kickstarter" when he said "10% to Amazon"? And you meant "Kickstarter+Amazon" when you said "Amazon" in reference to Drazz claim of "10% to Amazon" by which he meant "5% to Kickstarter"?

So to be not "difficult", for 100.000 GBP from 1000 backers on Kickstarter, the funds will be split as follows:

- 5.000, - GBP to Kickstarter.com (5%)
- 3.600,- GBP to Amazon (and Credit Card Companies) .. e.g. 3.4% of 100.000 + 1000x 0.20 GBP transaction fixed fee.
- 91.400,- GBP to the project creator

The same 100.000 GBP from 100 backers through Paypal post-campaign will be split as follows:
- 3.600,- GBP to Paypal (and Credit Card Companies) .. e.g. 3.4% of 100.000 + 1000x 0.20 GBP transaction fixed fee.
- 96.400,- GBP to the project creator

correct?

Also, for fun, a successful fixed-funding campaign on Indiegogo with 100.000 GBP by 1000 backers would be the following.
- 4.000, - GBP to Indiegogo (4%)
- 3.600,- GBP to Paypal (and Credit Card Companies) .. e.g. 3.4% of 100.000 + 1000x 0.20 GBP transaction fixed fee.
- 92.400,- GBP to the project creator

I edited out the 'difficult' part because I was causing much of the confusion!

At the end of the day, I think we can use 10% as a good round number when subtracting out all the fees and what not that a campaign is subjected to after it ends...

Wow, didn't mean to create a huge debate. Only point I was making was that Amazon takes a cut during the KS; that's the price of using their creation--Kickstarter.

By adding to the pledge after the KS, any funds go directly to the company, without an Amazon cut.

drazz wrote:
Wow, didn't mean to create a huge debate. Only point I was making was that Amazon takes a cut during the KS; that's the price of using their creation--Kickstarter.

By adding to the pledge after the KS, any funds go directly to the company, without an Amazon cut.

Umm.. no.

The funds do not go directly go to the company that created the project. Yes, you cut out Amazon, but Paypal takes an identical cut instead. So there is no saving there for the creator.

The only savings are the cut that goes to Kickstarter.com (which is not a creation by Amazon, not anymore than Indiegogo.com is a creation by Paypal or the GW-Webstore is a creation by Mastercard .. I guess that might be the confusion... here's a recent interview https://www.yahoo.com/tech/kickstarter-wont-be-raising-funds-from-google-or-79099001596.html ).

@Alpharius


10% is a good rule of thumb for the overall project. For the specific "saving" of "post-campaign-Paypal" vs. "in-the-Kickstarter-campaign", the savings are precisely 5%, because the fee structure of Paypal and Amazon is identical.

Part 2...... I hope that part three sheds some more light,... Right now,... I really want to see what the heightened security level will do,... Do higher SecFor forces come busting out of the stairs and elevators?