SW Question: What is the legal basis for the Clone Wars?

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**Seaward**

trexmeyer wrote:
It's even better if you pretend only A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, and The Sith Lords exist. Lucas' decision to replace Wookies with Ewoks marked the beginning of the end for quality Star Wars. Knights of the Old Republic is fun, but honestly, that game is not groundbreaking by any means. The story is the same cut and paste cheesefest that has appeared repeatedly in the EU since day one. Darth Malak is a one-dimensional antagonist and instantly forgettable. The game is massively over rated by those that think a plot twist reveal is somehow amazing writing.

I enjoy the original KotOR for giving us an era to play about in other than the five years or whatever it is of the original trilogy, which everybody else seemed to be trying to cram their stories into, even though the story itself may not be terribly original. KotOR II, on the other hand? I think it's the best Star Wars story told, largely because it deconstructs everything Lucas did.

**LordofHats**

Jedi positions on marriage shift on who is writing the timeline. Revan basically blackmailed the council to let him and Bastilla marry. Stelle on the other hand never married because the order didn't allow it. Though I suspect that given all the affairs in the EU, Jedi regularly engage in romantic relationships and just never marry as a general rule.

**trexmeyer**

Seaward wrote:
trexmeyer wrote:
It's even better if you pretend only A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, and The Sith Lords exist. Lucas' decision to replace Wookies with Ewoks marked the beginning of the end for quality Star Wars. Knights of the Old Republic is fun, but honestly, that game is not groundbreaking by any means. The story is the same cut and paste cheesefest that has appeared repeatedly in the EU since day one. Darth Malak is a one-dimensional antagonist and instantly forgettable. The game is massively over rated by those that think a plot twist reveal is somehow amazing writing.

I enjoy the original KotOR for giving us an era to play about in other than the five years or whatever it is of the original trilogy, which everybody else seemed to be trying to cram their stories into, even though the story itself may not be terribly original. KotOR II, on the other hand? I think it's the best Star Wars story told, largely because it deconstructs everything Lucas did.

The Sith Lords is absolutely brilliant and a big middle finger to Lucas at the same time.

**squidhills**

Seaward wrote:
KotOR II, on the other hand? I think it's the best Star Wars story told

Really? I haven't played KotOR II, but I'd heard from fans of the first one that the second game seemed rushed and unfinished.

**LordofHats**

It was unfinished but there's a split in the fan base over the two games.

KotORII launched without being fully completed (at least as Obsidian planned). A fan patch was released that pulled a lot of the unfinished elements from the game code and put them into a playable format and of those who didn't like II and played that patch they mostly changed their minds (self included).

**Seaward**

squidhills wrote:
Really? I haven't played KotOR II, but I'd heard from fans of the first one that the second game seemed rushed and unfinished.

It definitely shipped unfinished (and Obsidian has quietly but convincingly blamed LucasArts for that), but even without the mod that restores everything Obsidian didn't have time to do, it's still a great game. It injects some much-needed ambiguity into the Force, the Jedi, the Sith...pretty much everything, really. I like that at least some of the writers for the Sith Warrior storyline in TOR seem to have picked up on that and used it, which is probably why SW is the only Force-using storyline in that game that I can stomach.

**LordofHats**

which is probably why SW is the only Force-using storyline in that game that I can stomach.

Well lets be honest. The two Jedi story lines, while serviceable, are dull as dirt. Compared to the awesome Imperial Agent and Sith Warrior stories, the others are just kind of mediocre. Okay for a play through, but mediocre.

**Grey Templar**

LordofHats wrote:
Jedi positions on marriage shift on who is writing the timeline. Revan basically blackmailed the council to let him and Bastilla marry. Stelle on the other hand never married because the order didn't allow it. Though I suspect that given all the affairs in the EU, Jedi regularly engage in romantic relationships and just never marry as a general rule.

I always figured that, at the time, it wasn't an actual rule. Just tradition that came out of the lifestyle not being favorable to romantic attachments, although that does fall apart when you consider Jedi+Jedi relationships.

So in the Old Republic, at least prior to the KOTR timeline, Jedi could have had families but it rarely happened and got phased out by the time the Prequels rolled around.

**LordofHats**

Now that I think of it, I can't think of any Jedi who were thrown out of the Order for, illicit relationships. They talk about it but I don't know that its ever happened in the EU to a character. All the Jedi who have relationships I know of, live in an order that allows it, kept it a secret, or blackmailed the masters into getting their way XD

**CthuluIsSpy**

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
It was pretty much laid out in ANH that the Empire didn't really care about actually governing much of anything:
Tarkin: The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away forever.
Tagge: But that's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?
Tarkin: The regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.
So the crime syndicate line of thought really seems to apply. As long as the regional governors don't actively oppose the Emperor, they are pretty much free to govern their systems however they want.

Out of curiosity, how is the IoM considered to be an Empire then? Like the GE, it has a decentralized government where the rulers of each world are allowed to do their own thing, provided they pay taxes.
Is it because the IoM has a noticeable hierarchy and bureaucratic structure?

**Manchu**

sebster wrote:
They had written their own articles of secession, but the Republic still saw them as individual rebellious colonies.

On what basis? The Republic is a lot more like the UN than, for example, the US federal government. The Republic is seemingly completely uninvolved with the actual administration of any given system. Just take a look at Naboo. There is no Republic infrastructure reaching "downward"; just one senatorial delegation sent "upward." So I don't think the Republic has any claim on its member systems. It's more like its member systems have a claim on it. And if those systems decided to walk away ... well, it's not like they were ever actually colonies of the Republic in the first place. As I mentioned, there doesn't seem to be any legal basis to object to leaving the Republic.

**TheCustomLime**

I don't believe there is any actual legal reason that the Clone Wars was started. While I don't know whether this is actual canon I do recall people who have any sympathy for the CIS to be considered traitors. Being a "Separatist" seems to be a bad thing. So, it's possible that the reason the whole thing happened was that Palpatine and his government convinced everyone that the CIS was bad and that they should be destroyed using flimsy legal arguments and a hefty amount of propaganda. I do find it strange that the Jedi order went along with the whole thing without ever questioning the war but I guess that's Lucas for ya.

In addition to the Propaganda, the CIS committed several atrocities throughout the war which probably didn't help their case any. I don't think slavery and using native populations of a neutral war as test targets for your shiny new weapons isn't really the mark of a government that just wants to be free. Though, to be fair, the Republic used an entire army of slaves to defeat the droid army.

**trexmeyer**

There's some handwavery about the Jedi foresight and vision being clouded by the Dark Side of the Force. The Jedi Order as a whole isn't exactly portrayed as having a great deal of common sense. They frequently border on Lawful Stupid and imo, occasionally take nice, long vacations in it.

**Evil Lamp 6**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
It was pretty much laid out in ANH that the Empire didn't really care about actually governing much of anything:
Tarkin: The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away forever.
Tagge: But that's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?
Tarkin: The regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.
So the crime syndicate line of thought really seems to apply. As long as the regional governors don't actively oppose the Emperor, they are pretty much free to govern their systems however they want.

Out of curiosity, how is the IoM considered to be an Empire then? Like the GE, it has a decentralized government where the rulers of each world are allowed to do their own thing, provided they pay taxes.
Is it because the IoM has a noticeable hierarchy and bureaucratic structure?

Pretty much. The IoM most certainly has its bureaucratic structure present on most worlds in some form or another. The IoM also has a greater presence on its worlds too.

Think back to ESB, Cloud City on Bespin didn't have any Imperial presence prior to Han, Leia & company showing up as tracked by Boba Fett. The Empire could give feth all care about how Bespin or Cloud City is actually governed and were only there to set a trap/capture Luke. Once the Emperor and Vader got what they came for, they were pretty much going to leave and business would continue as usual on Bespin.

Lando wrote:I've just made a deal that'll keep the Empire out of here forever.

The Empire never had, nor cared, for any real interest in Cloud City, as far as government control is concerned, except as a means to an end.

Vader wrote:Good. You know it would be unfortunate if I had to leave a garrison here.

Showing that there wasn't an Imperial garrison prior to the Empire's arrival, and most likely wouldn't be one after Vader and Co. left. Compare to the IoM where many worlds have some IoM presence whether in the Adeptus Ministorum or a PDF or actual IG garrison, or a SoB Convent or something.

Back to the OP's question though. Who would have the most to profit from the Clone Wars? I mean aside from Palpatine himself. Just as several prominent Separatist leaders were shown "plotting" on Geonosis, I can imagine several of the key players from the Republic getting together to discuss war plans and how best to profit from the conflict. I mean the Republic, or at least certain elements within it, should really want there to be a major war. Think of all the industries that would be involved in such an undertaking, that weren't part of the Separatists, that would actually benefit from the conflict. It is especially fortunate that the soldiers doing the actual fighting are conveniently supplied by clones so any of the workers involved in the industries of war would still be able to work without being subject to being drafted.

**Manchu**

The IoM is certainly centralized. Everything that happens in the IoM is ultimately, if not practically, at the service of the Emperor and Holy Terra. The Galactic Empire is similarly centralized. But the IoM, unlike the Galactic Empire, actually does seem interested in governing as opposed to merely extorting resources.

**trexmeyer**

Manchu wrote:
The IoM is certainly centralized. Everything that happens in the IoM is ultimately, if not practically, at the service of the Emperor and Holy Terra. The Galactic Empire is similarly centralized. But the IoM, unlike the Galactic Empire, actually does seem interested in governing as opposed to merely extorting resources.

The EU, to some extent, offers a more plausible explanation for Palpatine's scheming.

It's long, so spoilers.

Spoiler:

My favorite Star Wars conspiracy is that the Emperor wasn't spending all those resources creating crazy superweapons like the Death Star and the Sun Crusher and putting together gigantic fleets of Star Destroyers wasn't to stop the Rebel Alliance, but rather in preparation of the Yuuzhan Vong Invasion that would happen about a quarter century after RoTJ ended.
Now the Emperor is a pretty smart guy. I mean, he got himself elected to Chancellor of the Republic, started a war, earned himself absolute control on both sides of the war, then managed to turn the galaxy against the guys who for a millennium had served as icons of peacekeeping, justice, and democracy. And that takes some serious strategizing! But here's the thing:
At this point, the Republic was falling apart, with or without a Sith-led Separatist movement to nudge them in the wrong direction. The senate was a clusterfeth where nothing ever got done. Corruption reigned supreme. Even the Jedi Council wasn't doing it's job properly. Ideally, Jedi are supposed to act as bastions of compassion and moderation. The way the Jedi would be tasked to deal with a situation is as a balancing influence between, say, two conflicting nation-states, or a particularly quarrelsome trade agreement. Everyone respected and would listen to a Jedi, and even without acting on behalf of the Republic, they should be able to arrive on a scene and be able to allow discussion and bureaucracy to flourish. Instead, the Jedi Council of the waning days of the Republic had grown inward and conservative, spending all their time meditating on the state of the galaxy and not enough time heading out there and fixing gak. This held throughout the war, when Jedi were surprisingly quick to jump to open combat as opposed to discussion.
In short, the Republic was completely and utterly unprepared for a real invasion, from a force that wasn't being controlled by a puppetmaster who was preventing either side from gaining an advantage until the moment was right. The kinds of fleets that were commonplace in the Empire would have been impossible for the Republic to even agree to create, let alone have the wherewithal to actually build. What Palpatine did was take a failing system and tear it out by the roots, replacing it with a brutally efficient, military-industrial focused society - one that could adequately prepare for an invasion of the scale of the Yuuzhan Vong were already beginning.
Second of all, if you think about it, creating a weapon that can destroy planets doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you're fighting a war against a well funded, but decentralized and scattered rebellion. The Rebel Alliance wasn't fighting a war of planets or borders or resources, they were fighting a war of attrition. What good is the ability to destroy a planet when your enemy doesn't even officially control any? The destruction of Alderaan, the only notable use of the Death Star, was a move made by Grand Moff Tarkin, whose Tarkin Doctrine, though it heavily influenced the way the Empire kept a tight grip on even the furthest systems, was not the ultimate purpose of the "ultimate weapon". Tarkin was convinced that the Death Star was his tool, one of intimidation and despotism, that he could use it to keep the Alliance, the biggest threat to his power, at bay. And we all know how that venture turned out.
No, the real purpose of the Death Star was to be able to fight a force that could completely terraform an entire planet into a gigantic, organic shipyard in a matter of months, and was backed by dozens of 100+ Kilometer across worldships. In fact, without the timely arrival of the seed of the original Yuuzhan Vong homeworld, Zonama Sekot, and a Jedi-influenced heretic cult that spurred a slave uprising, it's very unlikely that the denizens of the galaxy could have survived the war at all under the leadership of the New Republic. In fact, it's not really even fair to say that they "won" the war in any sense, with a sizable portion of the population of the galaxy eradicated, Coruscant, the former shining jewel at the heart of every major government for millennia, captured and terraformed beyond recognition, and the New Republic forced to reconstruct itself as the Galactic Alliance. Undoubtedly, for all it's flaws, the Empire could have hammered out a far less Pyrrhic victory over the Vong. And if Palpatine hadn't underestimated the abilities of both the rebellion he never considered a comparable threat, and one young Jedi, perhaps the galaxy could have avoided the deaths of uncountable sentients during the Yuuzhan Vong war years later.
TL;DR: The Emperor destroyed the Republic and built Death Stars to fight off an extragalactic invasion.
REPOST ADDENDUM: Since I didn't include this the first time around, there is ample evidence to suggest that Palpatine knew the Yuzhaan Vong were preparing an invasion. It's clearly outlined that the Chiss were aware of the Vong (Though perhaps not the threat they posed) at least as early as 27 years before the Battle of Yavin, along with Palpatine, who in Outbound Flight explains his purpose behind destroying the eponymous expedition was to prevent the discovery of an "immensely powerful and hostile alien empire" heavily hinted to be the Vong. So there you have it: Solid proof that Palpatine was aware of the Yuzhaan Vong as well as the threat they posed, 5 years before the Clone Wars even began (22 BBY).

And Yoda being in on it actually fits.

Unless you consider Yoda threw the fight deliberately, because it was his only way of setting the Empire in motion and allowing to prepare against the Vong without necessarily "changing sides". In which case, touche Yoda.
If this was the case, would he have still trained... wait... nevermind. If Yoda had his way, Luke would have stayed on Dagobah. The Allience would have fallen to the trap laid by the Emperor. The seed of the Jedi would have remained safe on an out-of-the-way swamp world, ready for when the war ended (doubly so if there was a female human down there on the planet somewhere), and the empire would have survived with its emperor.
Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't at all interested in overthrowing the emperor. They could have done so earlier on, what with Yoda's 900 years' life experience and the fething ghost of Qui-Gon able to serve as a very agile scout, not to mention Obi-Wan's abilities. They were only interested in preserving the Jedi through the war.

http://www.reddit.com/r/FanTheories/comments/zt9l8/the_real_reason_emperor_palpatine_created_the/

It isn't perfect, but is an interesting read for EU fans.

**whitedragon**

The mind boggles!

**CthuluIsSpy**

That theory would make sense, if Palaptine wasn't so overbearingly, moustache-twirling despotic.

I got more of "lets mess with the whole galaxy!" vibe than a "gotta prepare the galaxy before it gets invaded" vibe.

Or maybe he was turning senile. Channeling lightning through the finger tips tend to do that.
That may explain why he didn't order his underlings to not waste the experimental world killers on rebel planets. Because the supposed enemy who you are building said world killers to fight against might just notice it.

**sebster**

Manchu wrote:
On what basis? The Republic is a lot more like the UN than, for example, the US federal government. The Republic is seemingly completely uninvolved with the actual administration of any given system. Just take a look at Naboo. There is no Republic infrastructure reaching "downward"; just one senatorial delegation sent "upward." So I don't think the Republic has any claim on its member systems. It's more like its member systems have a claim on it. And if those systems decided to walk away ... well, it's not like they were ever actually colonies of the Republic in the first place. As I mentioned, there doesn't seem to be any legal basis to object to leaving the Republic.

Possibly. But we just don't know exactly what the formal process of becoming part of the Republic involves. I mean the exact operations of the Republic are almost entirely impossible to determine, and while Naboo and Tatooine seemed to get no protection or even Republic presence on the planet, we have no idea if that was true for more important or centrally located worlds. And we also have no idea what membership of the Republic actually entailed - a bloated, corrupt organisation could very well have offered membership terms that said 'we may or may not do anything useful for you, but understand you can't ever, ever leave the Republic'. Do we even know if planets were given a choice of entering the Republic or not, or if occupied planets were just put in the Republic, with no option of saying no?

What we do know is that when the Seperatists left, they formed articles of secession, and we also know that no-one seemed to claim the military response from the Republic was illegal, so while other facts lead us to sensibly conclude that planets and organisations ought to be able to come and go as they please, we have direct evidence in the film that that isn't true.

Ultimately, the whole thing just makes less and less sense the more you look at it. But then I think more than a few people on the internet have made that point in the last few years

**AegisGrimm**

Easily the stupidest part of the prequels is how none of the higher-ups gave a damn about the huge army that suddenly appeared on the Republic expenditure accounts. The actual meaning of the Clone Wars takes a backseat to that if you are looking at things logically.

Imagine if your country suddenly pulled thousands and thousand of troops out of their back pocket just in time for a war. Everyone would freak.

**Frazzled**

Make food not clones!

**LordofHats**

Frazzled wrote:
Make food not clones!

Just throwing this out there, but what if we used the clones... as food?

**Frazzled**

Mmm long pig sandwich. Coty we hardly knew ya...

**LordofHats**

Maybe we should package it as imitation long pork. For liability reasons of course.

**Seaward**

AegisGrimm wrote:
Easily the stupidest part of the prequels is how none of the higher-ups gave a damn about the huge army that suddenly appeared on the Republic expenditure accounts.

There's nothing at all easy about determining the stupidest part of the prequels.

**IceBayPaint**

Seaward wrote:
AegisGrimm wrote:
Easily the stupidest part of the prequels is how none of the higher-ups gave a damn about the huge army that suddenly appeared on the Republic expenditure accounts.

There's nothing at all easy about determining the stupidest part of the prequels.

Thats because the whole Clone army was paid by Damask Holdings.

**CthuluIsSpy**

LordofHats wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Make food not clones!

Just throwing this out there, but what if we used the clones... as food?

Because SOYLENT GREEN ARE CLONES doesn't quite sound right.

**Manchu**

sebster wrote:
we also know that no-one seemed to claim the military response from the Republic was illegal, so while other facts lead us to sensibly conclude that planets and organisations ought to be able to come and go as they please, we have direct evidence in the film that that isn't true

That's flat-out speculation; there is no direct evidence from any SW film that Separatist secession from the Republic was illegal or that no Separatists ever complained that the invasion of Geonosis was illegal. What we have in the movies is a tissue-thin justification formed by one assassination attempt on a Senator, perhaps (I can't quite remember) some throwaway line about this and other similar terrorist acts that Mace Windu directly says Count Dooku cannot be responsible for, and the prospective execution of the same Senator later, along with two Jedi, who were all caught in the act of espionage.

One minute, there is a standing diplomatic rift. The next minute, the Republic has a giant clone army and is invading Geonosis and starting a galactic war. No one bothers to explain why, except for that Palpatine secretly wanted to do it -- which can't very well be what he sold to the Senate. I can't believe that his emergency powers included "declare war with mysterious army for no reason."

**trexmeyer**

Well I believe (and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong) that Lucas intended it be a heavy handed allusion to Bush's handling of the War on Terror. Palpatine promoted fear mongering and transformed the CIS into a boogeyman. After the fiasco on Naboo the remaining senators were more than happy to hand the reigns over to Palpatine and allow him to "protect them all." There is minimal information in the films concerning the history of the Galactic Republic, but in the EU it has been at relative peace for centuries. It won't take much to convince the corrupt Senators of a stagnant Republic that the Separatists represent a threat to their way of life.

**LordofHats**

trexmeyer wrote:
Well I believe (and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong) that Lucas intended it be a heavy handed allusion to Bush's handling of the War on Terror. Palpatine promoted fear mongering and transformed the CIS into a boogeyman. After the fiasco on Naboo the remaining senators were more than happy to hand the reigns over to Palpatine and allow him to "protect them all." There is minimal information in the films concerning the history of the Galactic Republic, but in the EU it has been at relative peace for centuries. It won't take much to convince the corrupt Senators of a stagnant Republic that the Separatists represent a threat to their way of life.

This was my interpretation as well. Palpatine's big speech and Padmae's "This is how freedom dies" quote were very reminiscent of reactions fot the PATRIOT Act passed by Bush for the safety and security of the nation. I find it hard to take as anything other than a direct allusion not just to the War on Terror but Post 9/11 US Politics.