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It's interesting to notice that in the last DA codex Jonson is fully healed from the scars of his battle with Luther and that Cypher is very near to Terra...

My idea is that in 7th or 8th edition, after FW has pulled out all primarch models that primarchs can make return to 40k too...

The problem is not if the primarchs will return to 40k but how...

For example the DA issue is about the fallen and the BA issue is about the red thirst... with the return of Jonson and/or Sanguinius there will be the problem of dealing with these dramas that shaped the BG of 40k...

in the 90s or in the early 2000s there were people like andy chambers dealing with 40k but now we have charlatans like Ward that could destroy totally the setting...

this is why i hope we will never see the return of the primarchs in 40k...

master sheol wrote:
It's interesting to notice that in the last DA codex Jonson is fully healed from the scars of his battle with Luther and that Cypher is very near to Terra...

My idea is that in 7th or 8th edition, after FW has pulled out all primarch models that primarchs can make return to 40k too...

The problem is not if the primarchs will return to 40k but how...

For example the DA issue is about the fallen and the BA issue is about the red thirst... with the return of Jonson and/or Sanguinius there will be the problem of dealing with these dramas that shaped the BG of 40k...

in the 90s or in the early 2000s there were people like andy chambers dealing with 40k but now we have charlatans like Ward that could destroy totally the setting...

this is why i hope we will never see the return of the primarchs in 40k...

I think that piece of fluff with the Lion has been around for quite sometime.

GW's unwilling to advance the plot, for some asinine reason, but they're not unwilling to cram more events into 999M41.

I mean, heck, the Riptide is, what, 20 days old by the "end" of the 41st millenium, the Storm Potato is a few centuries old, the Centurion sillyness is a few millenia.

Just no one noticed.

I could very well see them re-introducing Guilliman and Jonson (the two most likely, arguably, to return and heavily hinted at in the "current" fluff), but have it occur so late in the timeline that the ramifications would be left unknown.

Then they can sell the models, throw a little bit of fluff in about their immediate impact/mental state, and let the fans wonder what they'll get up to in that mythical M42.

At least until someone other than the current GW is at the helm and actually realizes slight plot advancement would not be apocalyptic. Let's end Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade, shake up the universe a little bit, and craft something new to focus on.

 Sasori wrote:

I think that piece of fluff with the Lion has been around for quite sometime.

Guilliman healing and the Lion waking up are both very old fluff, dating back to 2nd edition at least.

My buddies and I have often talked about GW doing an "end of days" supplement, where the Imperium does finally fall, and all the things that are supposed to happen at that fabled hour do happen. Cypher reaching Terra, Dante defending the Golden Throne, primarchs coming back, etc.

Over the years, there's been rumors of pretty much all of them coming back for the end times. The only ones I doubt we'd see are Horus, Ferrus, and poor, poor Sanguinius.

End of days? Bah. Next chapter!

As a ig fan of the Boys in Blue, I would love to see Big G return, but if he does, it needs to be the next arc, or, well, next series of arcs, really.

It starts with Day 1 of M42, where he walks into the throne room of MacCragge and says, "I've been away for a very long time. What have I missed?" From there, we get a gathering of Ultramarine foundings, each wanting to see for themselves the scion of the line. He gathers up his chapters and launches a grand crusade at Cadia, intending on pushing Chaos back. We get a nice year long campaign, and at the end, Abadon (who, let's be honest, has lost his oomph as a character) is killed and Chaos is pushed back.

The Imperium goes wild!

In the aftermath, we see a small gathering of shadowy figures who discuss his return worriedly.

We get a short burst of Big G acting as a sort of regent, putting his rebuilding plans into action and moving things forward like only a Primarch can. The Space Wolves, ever ornery, tell him to frag off, while the Dark Angels continue a wait and see policy. U-Marines make up roughly half of all chapters, however, so they're mostly falling in line.

EVentually, we get to the second phase of the plan, where the Wolves and Dark Angels form the core of a ... I don't want to say rebellion, but holding to the Emperor's throne instead of G's rule. They think G's not fully healed, or that something's happened to his mind (The poisoned blade might have lingering effects, for instance) and want him to stand down. Year two gives us a nice in game reason for the classic Marine vs Marine matchups, giving us a nice struggle.

Year three, I don't have mapped out yet, and obviously there needs to be something happening fo rthe other forces (Tyranid, Tau, Necrons, ELdar, etc) so that the Imperium doesn't get *all* the airtime, but, you know.

There's potential if you want to tap it.

Wakshaani wrote:
End of days? Bah. Next chapter!

As a ig fan of the Boys in Blue, I would love to see Big G return, but if he does, it needs to be the next arc, or, well, next series of arcs, really.

It starts with Day 1 of M42, where he walks into the throne room of MacCragge and says, "I've been away for a very long time. What have I missed?" From there, we get a gathering of Ultramarine foundings, each wanting to see for themselves the scion of the line. He gathers up his chapters and launches a grand crusade at Cadia, intending on pushing Chaos back. We get a nice year long campaign, and at the end, Abadon (who, let's be honest, has lost his oomph as a character) is killed and Chaos is pushed back.

The Imperium goes wild!

In the aftermath, we see a small gathering of shadowy figures who discuss his return worriedly.

We get a short burst of Big G acting as a sort of regent, putting his rebuilding plans into action and moving things forward like only a Primarch can. The Space Wolves, ever ornery, tell him to frag off, while the Dark Angels continue a wait and see policy. U-Marines make up roughly half of all chapters, however, so they're mostly falling in line.

EVentually, we get to the second phase of the plan, where the Wolves and Dark Angels form the core of a ... I don't want to say rebellion, but holding to the Emperor's throne instead of G's rule. They think G's not fully healed, or that something's happened to his mind (The poisoned blade might have lingering effects, for instance) and want him to stand down. Year two gives us a nice in game reason for the classic Marine vs Marine matchups, giving us a nice struggle.

Year three, I don't have mapped out yet, and obviously there needs to be something happening fo rthe other forces (Tyranid, Tau, Necrons, ELdar, etc) so that the Imperium doesn't get *all* the airtime, but, you know.

There's potential if you want to tap it.

Sounds fun, and that is why GW wouldn't ever do it.

I really like those ideas, and big g coming back would be the best scenario as the ultramarines are the chapter in the thick of everything. You have them taking the brunt of the hive fleets, right in the tau back yard, and necrons waking up. The orcs are everywhere too, not sure about eldar and dark eldar, but revisions can be made .

I haven't read I remembered empire from black library, but wasn't he trying to set up a second empire where sanguinuis would rule? If so with his brother and father dead I could see him say "I'm in charge little 's, get in line or else".

I would also see dorn's boys being against big g being in charge and all the imperial fist chapters fortify terra. Then we would find out just how many black Templar marines are out there, which has always been hinted as being well beyond codex numbers.

This would be very Kirby-esque, after all under his reign we've gotten marines, marines, and more marines. My only hope is if this came about that GW would produce the mark xiv armor.

I really hope this doesn't happen. I would utterly ruin 40K for me. A big part of appeal of the 40K is the Imperium being a crumbling dystopia and Primarchs mere barely remembered legends. People can already play Primarchs in HH, let them stay there.

They should just introduce rumours of them fighting on the field. Huge space marines swooping in to save the day at the last hour. No names, no understanding of who they are, not yet anyway, just missed or half cut rumours, chinese whispers even.

That's all I'd want, no rules. Sort of like what they've done with the traiter primarch's in the 13th dark crusade.

They could move the fluff on through a series of yearly campaign books that introduce new units and characters, kill off a few older characters. The way Wizards tells a story in their releases of mtg cards, the story does inch along a little each time, and you get a little jump when they return to a previous world when doing a new set. Even though they destroyed the hugely popular Mirroden in the second set there, the gaming world didn't fall in.

Certainly GW could release books each year or two based around a campaign drawing heavily upon the codex releases for that year, and which that introduce a few new units and characters and moves the story on a little. The fact that nothing has happened in 20 years of publishing makes the game quite stale. Of course, this requires longer term investment and GW would have to shake off the current approach which is that they recycle the game every few years as an excuse to re-release all the rules and codices for people to buy all over again, and do nothing to actually improve the game. Proposing a 7th edition of 40K after 25 years shows how they're not invested in making this game work or taking it places.

They clearly want to introduce new units and write out older ones, doing this but not moving the fluff at the same time makes it seem more artificial. eg. They've had Space Marine Centurions for centuries, we've never heard of them just because. Now that could have been a campaign over a year or so. Instead of re-releasing the same material, write a book creating some fluff about recovering an STC, bring in a few units for armies and give them special characters and campaign specific army options. Then release a second book later on with the story set after the STC has been recovered and use that to introduce the miniatures. You could release codicies in a way to move the story and make it all joined up. Instead of rehashing the same old stuff about the horus heresy, a chaos codex could be about attacking a forge world, the next book could be a Ad Mech codex about the defence. This way people buy the books because a story is being told in each one. Orrr you could just tell us about the Heresy again.

Awesome they should bring him back in a megadreadnoguht that's like 10 times bigger than a normal dreadnought and can fly into space and kill all the tyranids.

I'm gonna buy 3 of him to use in my games.

Well, I've done the math. HH started on a 9:9 score. Horus and Curze definitely and irrevocably were killed, Alpharius/Omegon/random legionaire maybe, bringing the Chaos Score down to 6/7 Primarchs, 6 of which are Demons now, so short of big E rising from the Throne and killing them with hiss psycho-awesomeness they will stay in the fluff forever.
On the loyalist side we have Sanguinus and Dorn who definitely are out of action. Russ, Corax and Khan are doing a recreational voyage through warp or webway to pass the time and El Johnson and Rowboat are in stasis until someone actually comes up with the idea of applying bandages and stitching their wounds. I'm not sure what the current opinion on Vulkan is, whether he just takes his time being reformed or whatever or whether he got killed of for good, so the score is 5/6 here.
Assuming that alpharius IS dead which I really hope he is not and vulkan lives which I don't really care about this would lead to a 6v6 scenario, allowing for a stalemate (yay, GW can add something without moving the story) and another power-creep (hey, the primarchs are back, we can bring a crapton of archeotech back because they remembered how to produce this stuff).

Gw would be better of just doing a fluff spin and say imperial scientists now can clone new primearch-ish warriors,
and just put out a generic primearc kit similar to damonprinces. That way they could make you buy multiple primearchs for an army without shame.

Those vulgar big-kits and escalation dont sound so bad now, does it?

 Fayric wrote:
Gw would be better of just doing a fluff spin and say imperial scientists now can clone new primearch-ish warriors,
and just put out a generic primearc kit similar to damonprinces. That way they could make you buy multiple primearchs for an army without shame.

Those vulgar big-kits and escalation dont sound so bad now, does it?

...thus making anything below S8 T7 obsolete? Thanks, I pass... besides, we allready have something like mini-primarchs, we call them space marines.

 Alpharius wrote:
Wasn't there a pseudo-once-upon-a-time-quote about how GW would only ever detail the Horus Heresy and/or introduce Primarchs into the game when they were truly desperate and needing a Hail Mary?

Citation needed.

Given all the books and the fact that FW has been allowed to do models/fiction for the Heresy, I'd say you're either misremembering something or the supposed quote was more snark than anything else.

Ralis wrote:
No. I don't think it would happen. Just because if they brought Guilliman back, Then there is no good reason for Johnson to come back, Or Russ, Or Vulkan.....

It would just snowball from there and soon all the primarchs would be back, including the "Dead" ones.

...and that would be a problem why exactly?

Bring back all the living Primarchs and all the Chaos Daemon Primarchs. It's a chance to bring incredible models into the game and advance the storyline into full blown rhana dandra mode. Points costs can balance anything. The game already has gargantuan Daemon Princes, C'tan of the normal and trancendent variety, and 2000 point superheavies, so in that setting Primarchs shouldn't be offensive to anyone else except fluff purists.

As a comparison, Warhammer has always had the leaders of the entire races as playable special characters. Malekith, Tyrion and Archaon are really the equivalent of for example the Emperor, Horus and Sanguinius being playable special characters, and it was always normal that a special lord choice with a monstrous mount costs half of your army's total points.

 Therion wrote:

Ralis wrote:
No. I don't think it would happen. Just because if they brought Guilliman back, Then there is no good reason for Johnson to come back, Or Russ, Or Vulkan.....

It would just snowball from there and soon all the primarchs would be back, including the "Dead" ones.

...and that would be a problem why exactly?

Bring back all the living Primarchs and all the Chaos Daemon Primarchs. It's a chance to bring incredible models into the game and advance the storyline into full blown rhana dandra mode.

And that's why it's a problem. I like 40K as a setting, I'm not interested in playing Warhammer 41K. There are 10,000 years of history to play in, almost none of it detailed extensively, and now the Primarch fetishists have the whole Heresy series on top of that. The only reasons to want to advance the storyline are because you're bored of 999.M41 in which case you have nobody to blame but yourself given the previous sentence, or because you don't like 40K as it exists in which case why are you playing it at all now there are half a dozen viable and widely played alternative games out there?

Well, Primarchs being around doesn't necessitate advancing the storyline by a lot. It could still be Warhammer 40K.

In many ways, the story has already advanced. They have just done it without actually admitting that 40K has progressed. They retcon everything.

The game has and continues to go up in scale. I'd love it if it wasn't for the standard gaming table size being too small for large models and flyers.

Adding Primarchs is just adding megaheroes to fight alongside the Titans and monsters. I'm not saying anyone or the game actually needs Primarchs to be in it, but I'm not getting the upset over the idea either.

 Yodhrin wrote:

And that's why it's a problem. I like 40K as a setting, I'm not interested in playing Warhammer 41K. There are 10,000 years of history to play in, almost none of it detailed extensively, and now the Primarch fetishists have the whole Heresy series on top of that. The only reasons to want to advance the storyline are because you're bored of 999.M41 in which case you have nobody to blame but yourself given the previous sentence, or because you don't like 40K as it exists in which case why are you playing it at all now there are half a dozen viable and widely played alternative games out there?

Exactly this. And Primarchs would change the setting. It would be all 'Imperium rejuvenated' and 'new hope' and all such crap. I wan't the Imperium be in decline and legends of the glorius past to remain as legends. The only way I'd be okay with a Primarch returning would be if the Inquisition would instantly assassinate him and then cover up it ever happened (come to think of it, that may have already happened.)

Daemon Primarchs are naturally a completely different thing, and I'm not opposed to giving them rules and models.

So far Angron has been the only Primark with playable rules be it in apoc 1 but still in the 41 mil

 Crimson wrote:
It would be all 'Imperium rejuvenated' and 'new hope' and all such crap.

Nope.

Imperium was crippled because of the Emperor's death. As long as he's stuck on the Golden Throne, nothing will change, no matter how many Primarchs show up to the party. No "rejuvenation", no "new hope".

People forget the Primarchs were made as commanders for the crusade, not saviours to the human race. Imperium has plenty of brilliant commanders as it is.

Aw heck, I wouldn't even give him stats for the first year or two; Big G's running the show from MacRagge, being all strategic and general-ish, not running around the table and punching stuff. He's just a story prop.

New Supplement, Primarchs return.


All the Primarchs and Daemon Primarchs come back for one final bash at the end of time. Yes even the dead ones come back for one final bash.

I'd prefer the Emperor to awaken, take one look at the disastrous mess the Space Marines have made of his dreams and have the lot of them put down

(he's clearly not adverse to binning his mistakes)

This lets GW bring out a whole massive new range of something different

I would rather have Primarchs return herald the fall of the Imperium and a total rewrite and plot advance of 40k:

The Golden Throne fails at last, and the Imperium erupts into civil war, eventually coming into a stalemate whereby several planetary systems declare independence and the High Lords, too busy trying to hold onto their own dominions, can't organize a second Crusade to unite again.

This could let them split off some chapters and allow for fluff reasons for Marines vs. Marines, as independent chapters might claim worlds and clash with the remnants of the Imperium, other chapters, loyal chapters, etc. without them being renegades. Same for IG, you could have planetary systems that pay lip service to the Imperium but do their own thing, and clash with each other. For instance the Ultramarines and some of their successors could form the Dominion of Ultramar and act like a renewed Legion. Space Wolves would likely split off and maybe expand to where they are raiders like their Viking heritage. Dark Angels and maybe Blood Angels would likely stay loyal and act as the true "Angels of Death" of the Imperium, heralding the doom of their enemies, etc.

 Breotan wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Wasn't there a pseudo-once-upon-a-time-quote about how GW would only ever detail the Horus Heresy and/or introduce Primarchs into the game when they were truly desperate and needing a Hail Mary?

Citation needed.

Given all the books and the fact that FW has been allowed to do models/fiction for the Heresy, I'd say you're either misremembering something or the supposed quote was more snark than anything else.

Some years ago (probably getting on 7-8 now) some pre-heresy plastics were designed and tooled. They were going to be released, but in the end upper management decided that they didn't want to split the game universe, and those pre-heresy elements (helmets/armour) were split up and ended up being used for some of the Battle for Macragge marines in the 4th edition starter set, and also the Blood Angel sprues that came a few years later.

I don't have any citation unfortunately, just what I heard from someone who had been in a senior position within the company at the time.

I think the growth of FW and the HH range has been very much an organic thing. The Collected Visions card game and then books were responsible for catching part of the 40k fanbase's imagination, and a rather small but dedicated fan-base (with a dis-proportional internet presence) then started to make conversions based on those images. I think the number of 3rd party bits sites (inc. Max Mini and Chapterhouse) as well as high sales of a certain FW kit (the Red Scorpion MK4 veterans pack), followed by the release of the HH books, then I think made the ball start to roll properly and Pre-Heresy started to move from the periphery into the more mainstream 40k gamers conciousness.

I believe there was a conscious decision not to make a 'warhammer 30,000', main GW game release some time ago. But, I think the Horus Heresy books, the high sales of certain parts of the FW range (before they actually labelled stuff as 'pre-heresy') and, I like to think, a very tenacious and extremely dedicated but small fan base who helped to promote it, and well... it's extremely evocative, more '40k' than '40k' has become from a background perspective (if that makes any sense?!)

They've got some really talented and creative guys making stuff that they want to make, away from someone in a suit saying "nope, don't think that's going to make 200% profit margin on that sprue, try again". It's no surprise to me at all that the FW range continues to grow and prosper. Certainly, I know a fair number of people who wouldn't touch something like the Stormraven, Centurions or Skull-mower with a barge-pole, but continue to collect the 40k FW pre-heresy range. I hope things continue as they are, because at present FW have been very clever in positioning themselves away from the 'toy' image that 40k has moved towards, and instead appeals to the veteran collector.

 Yodhrin wrote:
And that's why it's a problem. I like 40K as a setting, I'm not interested in playing Warhammer 41K. There are 10,000 years of history to play in, almost none of it detailed extensively, and now the Primarch fetishists have the whole Heresy series on top of that. The only reasons to want to advance the storyline are because you're bored of 999.M41 in which case you have nobody to blame but yourself given the previous sentence, or because you don't like 40K as it exists in which case why are you playing it at all now there are half a dozen viable and widely played alternative games out there?

Hasn't 40k as a setting been in the last 10 years of the millenium pretty much forever? Some books happen earlier and stuff, but at least for the past four editions, it's been in the verge of the 13th Black Crusade, or during it for a very short period.

Crimson wrote:Exactly this. And Primarchs would change the setting. It would be all 'Imperium rejuvenated' and 'new hope' and all such crap. I wan't the Imperium be in decline and legends of the glorius past to remain as legends. The only way I'd be okay with a Primarch returning would be if the Inquisition would instantly assassinate him and then cover up it ever happened (come to think of it, that may have already happened.)

Daemon Primarchs are naturally a completely different thing, and I'm not opposed to giving them rules and models.

If they wrote it as Imperium rejuvenated, it would be dumb, but if something happened and the Imperium slipped (eg, Abbadon gains a foothold in Cadia as some other races tie up and/or break down various points of infrastructure), then the primarchs returning makes sense fluffwise as a desperate ploy to keep the Imperium alive. What if instead of Guilliman being healed, it's merely that he healed enough that he can return to fight for a time, but with his death being a foregone conclusion because of it? He returns for one last ride to try to right the ship before his body fails.

One Primarch returning fatefully lines up with others returning, and the daemon primarchs manifesting, and you have Warhammer 40k: End Times. Several primarchs already had fluff of returning for the end of days, so it's not even much of a stretch.

I've been reading through all the Dan Abnett Sabbat World books lately, and have discovered a recurring pattern.
In the Ravenor vs Eisenhorn book Pariah. The mysterious all controlling evil is the Golden King, which given the inclusion of Word Bearers operating on the planet dicking about and what-not, could be Lorgar (Golden etc). Then, now re-reading the Gaunts Ghosts Series, the Archon, the lead villain, is obsessed with 'his word' drowning out all others. Its even his forces standard greeting (The Archon, Whose Voice Drowns Out All Others).
What I'm getting at is, Lorgar has been missing, presumed holed up in his big old cathedral procrastinating for ten thousand years, and all of a sudden one of, if not THE, biggest black library authors has been hinting that the Word Bearers and their Golden King are actively getting involved in the Sabbat Worlds. If any Black Library writer could take a liberty with GW fluff and bring a primarch back, its Dan Abnett, and if on the small chance Lorgar does turn up, then How far from rationality is it that Gulliman would wake up?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(And one more thing, in this latest generation of fluff and story Kaldor Draigo carved his name into Mortarions Heart... don't lie, ninety percent of us just ignore that it ever happened)

I wouldn't mind it if they came out with a Warhammer 41K supplement, with rules for all the primarchs (Chaos and Loyalist). All they need to do is set it up as a "what if?" scenario and run a global campaign out of it.

Not only that, but the return of the Primarchs would not necessarily mean an Imperium Ascendant. The High Lords aren't necessarily going to just give up all their power because a Primarch appears. The Inquisition isn't just going to give up its authority. The AdMech isn't just going to roll over. There will be a civil war, make no mistake, and with the Tyranids, Chaos, Necrons, Orks, and Tau all waiting at the gates, well, it would make for a very interesting campaign.

Besides, it wouldn't bother me one bit if GW decided to actually advance the fluff. Other game companies have no problems doing so (I actually like that PP has different versions of some characters based on the timeline).

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I wouldn't mind it if they came out with a Warhammer 41K supplement, with rules for all the primarchs (Chaos and Loyalist). All they need to do is set it up as a "what if?" scenario and run a global campaign out of it.

Not only that, but the return of the Primarchs would not necessarily mean an Imperium Ascendant. The High Lords aren't necessarily going to just give up all their power because a Primarch appears. The Inquisition isn't just going to give up its authority. The AdMech isn't just going to roll over. There will be a civil war, make no mistake, and with the Tyranids, Chaos, Necrons, Orks, and Tau all waiting at the gates, well, it would make for a very interesting campaign.

I can't see a Primarch or two appearing leading to a civil war at all. You're imagining a scenario where for example Leman Russ comes from the Eye of Terror, boards a Space Wolf Battle Barge and rides it to Terra and demands to be the new master of mankind. To me it seems the Primarchs would likely keep to their chapters, working alongside the chapter master as an iconic legend of old, and leaving Terra to the High Lords. The Primarchs were never politicians or leaders of humanity. They lead Space Marine Legions, and that's it. Most of them didn't have any ambition towards politics or administrative tasks. Guilliman wouldn't do anything different than Calgar is already doing. Russ would be a pretty stock Wolf Lord. Dorn would likely want to fortify Terra's defences more but he wouldn't ask to rule. And so on.