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LordofHats wrote: Many monster movies are ultimately about people more than they are about the monsters
That's not really a valid criticism to me. I've been watching Godzilla for 24 years. Seen every movie. People might have grown acustomed to the smash fests that are the Godzilla franchise, and I like those but they're not high cinema or quality films. They're us indulging out inner child with a 2 hour dose of devastation. It's not the kind of film that really has a message or anything meaningful to say. People might not like this film, but it was trying to be something better than that and I appreciate it.
Why is it better to make a Godzilla movie that tries to be a drama? Aren't there enough damn movies about the human condition and human relationships? The one thing that made this film different from all the other films that came out this year is Godzilla, and the film makers decided to minimize his presence to make the movie stand out?
Now, I didn't hate the film. In fact I loved every second that Godzilla or his immediate effects were on the screen. But, Jesus, would you sit through an hour of a film with protagonists investigating a murder mystery when the film is titled "The Butler Did It"? One of my friends described this film as a Bryan Cranston feature followed by a Godzilla short.
I'm sure someone somewhere has made a porno film with all kinds of thematic layers and depths, too, but he'd be out of a job if the boogie scenes only filled 10 minutes of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AegisGrimm wrote: I'm quite surprised by how much more people expected from this movie. I am a gigantic fan of Godzilla, and I loved it. This was never gonna be Schindler's List with kaiju, guys.
Apparently people loved that it tried to be?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/19 07:53:10
Break out the cham-pagan ladies and gents. Just as Big G crushed some over sized bugs, he's managed to crush the box office to come in at $93 million This gives him a bigger opening week than Spider Man 2 and a comparable opening to Captain America. EDIT: Worldwide box office is nearly $200 million. And the film hasn't even opened in Japan yet.
I think we can safely assume we'll be seeing a sequel.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/05/19 12:15:32
It seems the word is already in. The Sequel has the green light. Garth states he will be onboard and plans to use the same restraint he used in this film in the sequel. Hopefully that doesn't mean the exactly same level of restraint. A little more monsters would not have hurt this film at all. Hopefully he can do in the next one with human characters what he did in Monsters.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/19 12:25:28
Oh, and Pacific Rim is trash compared to this. Utter trash.
I like Giant robots fighting kaiju and Pacific rim was a terrible movie which was not actually for fans of the genre. I almost walked out when the 'sword' button happened. The tech, monsters, premise was fine, the movie was *BAD*. You want to talk about watering down a movie for mass market appeal? that was Pacific Rim. It simply fell flat at it. It was garbage on every level.
And the thing is, there was a lot of on-screen monsters and fighting. But it was correctly limited to not be pointlessly gratuitous and repetitive. It wasn't exactly going to be an MMA fight of two skilled combatants who were sparring in an interesting fight. it really was monsters flailing around. To dwell on it, would have ruined the movie and added nothing. The critical showdown was shown as well as the actually interesting and meaningful altercations.
If anything Godzilla was better fight scenes, better depictions of actual monsters interacting with the story and situation and was way more emotionally driven and invested. Even the MUTOs had character and purpose. This is a way better film for Kaiju fans than Pacific Rim ever was and in no way felt diluted.
No, there was nothing redeeming about that movie. They actually ruined what could have been great giant robot action by making them simply pointlessly irrelevant. There is a reason why we didn't punch our prey to death when we became the apex predator and a reason robots don't punch monsters to death. The fight scenes were actually pretty terrible which was accentuated with the 'touching the swinging ball desk toy'. Taking robots out of the fight before it even started was also a giant waste.
It was totally diluted for mass market appeal and it failed in being a great fan film and having mass appeal. It was a terrible story with bad premise, bad acting and terrible characters. They could have made a reasonable story and depicted it all better and had a real film, but they chose to make popcorn munching crap and make it a jokey parody of the genre opposed to a legitimate attempt at it.
I could not disagree more. Argue all you want, Pacific Rim had a tight, cohesive and simple without being entirely stupid plot. Godzilla had a lot of nonsensical garbage. Pacific Rim had probably the best cinematography for monster fights ever, and the best 3d (as in adding to scenes without distracting) that I've seen. Admittedly I saw Godzilla in 2d, but I doubt it improved on Pacific Rim in any reasonable way. Yeah. Categorically disagree on basically all of your points. Pacific Rim is one of my favorite movies of this century and Godzilla is utterly forgettable.
Wasn't Pacific Rim the movie where every fight ended with a Deus Ex Machina and half the plot points fell to the sideline after the first forty minutes?
Nevermind that ending...... That god awful ending.....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/19 13:26:25
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
Pacific Rim was about as horrible as horrible could be. next time lets not have 12 year olds write the plot. It was sssooooooooooooo stupid it wasn't funny (and the stupidity actually didn't have to do with the essential plot of giant robots vs. giant monsters).
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Wasn't Pacific Rim the movie where every fight ended with a Deus Ex Machina and half the plot points fell to the sideline after the first forty minutes?
Nevermind that ending...... That god awful ending.....
Nope. The only kill in the movie that could be considered a Deus-Ex machina was the one against Otachi with the swords, since nothing had established them previously. Every other kill was either done conventionally or with devices that had been well established previously at that point, such as the giant nuke they'd be talking about for half the movie. This is out of 6 main plot kills, and 2 that occur mostly off screen. However the swords thing was something of a genre convention. If you couldn't get on board with that you probably just weren't the movie's intended audience.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/19 13:42:53
Wasn't Pacific Rim the movie where every fight ended with a Deus Ex Machina and half the plot points fell to the sideline after the first forty minutes?
Nevermind that ending...... That god awful ending.....
Nope. The only kill in the movie that could be considered a Deus-Ex machina was the one against Otachi with the swords, since nothing had established them previously. Every other kill was either done conventionally or with devices that had been well established previously at that point, such as the giant nuke they'd be talking about for half the movie. This is out of 6 main plot kills, and 2 that occur mostly off screen. However the swords thing was something of a genre convention. If you couldn't get on board with that you probably just weren't the movie's intended audience.
Heavy spoilers incoming, ye be warned........
Spoiler:
Hey guys, we are planning on going on a super important mission where fou- .... two! of our giant mech suits are VERY important! Let's get in a fist fight, sustain heavy damage, and expend a ton of energy/ammo firing our weapons, instead of pulling out a sword that can cut it in half very easily! That's bound to work, right?
Nevermind that the love plot was contrived as all hell, the guy-who-became-one-with-the-kaiju plot point tripped over itself twenty times in the last half of the movie, the fact that the main character was able to do all that crap in the end to detonate the Jeager without oxygen and a wounded arm..... The Class 5 Kaiju showing up, and then just hanging out while patiently waiting its turn.....
Pacific Rim was a very, very poor attempt at mainstreamization of kaiju movies.....
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
I noticed a couple of things on the second watch. The Ford/Gozilla parallels are more numerous than I caught the first time. There is way more MUTO screentime than Godzilla screentime, which is a problem because (1) the movie is called Godzilla and has the responsibility of establishing his new American incarnation and (2) I really don't give a gak about the MUTOs. And I have no idea why I am supposed to root for Godzilla rather than the MUTOs other than I have only heard of/care about Godzilla. If anything, the MUTOs have better and more sympathetic characterization. Think of it this way, replace the long-legged MUTOs with a mated pair of gazelle and Godzilla with a Nile crocodile.
The movie reminds me of Star Trek Into Darkness (a.k.a., Wrath of Khan Jr.) in that it relies on the original IP to do the reboot's work. For example, J.J. Abrams expected us to believe that Kirk and Spock were friends because ... you know, Shatner and Nimoy played a believable, compelling friendship despite their very different personalities. But all Abrams showed us was them being at odds until suddenly Spock (who did not shed a tear when his mom and most of his species died when Vulcan is destroyed) is weeping and screaming over Kirk's death. Similarly, Edwards just assumes the audience will relate to Godzilla because, well, he's Godzilla! Right?
Wrong. He might be Godzilla. It's Edwards responsibility to prove it. The look went a long way, of course. And there is something very samurai-like about Godzilla's defiant bearing in combat. But why should I root for him, other than the reasons filmmakers other than Edwards have established? Why, other than the sappy cue in the score, am I supposed to feel bad when Godzilla falls (not once, but twice)? Why should I feel like cheering when Godzilla gets up and smugly strides back into the sea? I didn't find answers for these questions either time I watched the film.
But that doesn't mean I couldn't draw up a hypothesis. I think Edwards tries to create a parallel between Ford and Godzilla to characterize Godzilla. We're supposed develop sympathy for Godzilla -- and antipathy for the MUTOs -- through Ford. This is why we see so much of the MUTOs: to associate them, rather than Godzilla, with the threat to Ford's family and by proxy all humanity. This is also why we don't see much of Godzilla. Edwards doesn't just tease us by hiding the monsters. He also teases us by replacing Godzilla with Ford as the MUTOs' foil. In this way, the audience gets increasingly frustrated by Ford's inability to do anything about the MUTOs so that when Godzilla starts slapping them around, we want to cheer for Godzilla.
This also works in reverse to really emphasize the point. Notice it is when Godzilla is getting beaten up by both MUTOs at the same time that Ford finally gets to hurt them. He not only indirectly attacks the MUTOs but also potentially saves Godzilla's life by doing so. And then, when mamma MUTO looks set to get her revenge on Ford, that's when the big Godzilla moment arrives: atomic breath! It's not the single coolest moment of the movie for nothing. This is the moment to which Edwards spent every preceding minute building up with the Ford/Godzilla connection. This connection, previously distant and perhaps coincidental, is then made explicit by the their eye contact during Godzilla's first fall and finally confirmed by their simultaneous fall after the mamma MUTO's death.
If this was 1995, Ford (played by Will Smith) would have said "we did it, big guy" before passing out.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/19 16:06:22
I think it is true that much of the film relies on past associations, much like *ahem* Space Seed Jr., and from a purely analytical standpoint that is a problem. On the other hand, probably 90% of the audience doesn't appear to have cared and were rooting for him. I suppose the better question would be why did Into Darkness fail in this regard whereas Godzilla seems to have succeeded in tapping into those past associations? I think some of it may be in how Edwards used Spielberg as inspiration, and talked about it in some interview, and followed the template more of Jaws and Close Encounters than other Kaiju films. Pacific Rim was an homage to those films but Godzilla was more set on being a western look at the character, though done with consideration. This is opposed to the 1998 version which didn't seem to much care about older films or associations at all and seemed more interested in taking swipes at Siskel and Ebert.
Either way I'm getting the 3D bluray.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
LordofHats wrote: It seems the word is already in. The Sequel has the green light. Garth states he will be onboard and plans to use the same restraint he used in this film in the sequel. Hopefully that doesn't mean the exactly same level of restraint. A little more monsters would not have hurt this film at all. Hopefully he can do in the next one with human characters what he did in Monsters.
Awww yeah. I'm stoked. I'd like to see more actual monster combat in a second movie. I liked it a lot but there were some flaws.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
I doubt the general audience knows much about Godzilla one way or the other, other than he's a giant dragon monster and the film is named after him. The reason Edwards succeeded where Abrams failed is because Edwards did not just rely on the audience knowing/feeling something about the franchise before walking in. As I mentioned above, 90% of the movie is an elaborate ruse to prime the audience to root for Godzilla for reasons completely unconnected to Godzilla.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/19 16:46:37
Even in the past Godzilla movies, Humanity as a whole was still against him. He still killed thousands of people and destroyed a ton of crap. But when something *else* showed up, it was usually something with malicious intent, or instinctual intent which was worse off for humanity.
In the past, most INSECT-Like godzilla adversaries were bad for humans because they threatened to multiply and scourge the planet. That is painfully obvious really quickly even to us humans and can get out of control really fast.
In this movie, we have had past interactions with Godzilla, and while he is capable of massive destruction, he has reacted more like a wild animal where "if we don't mess with him, he won't mess with us'. The MUTOs showed tendencies which were larger worry to mankind, especially with the reproduction angle.
Imagine being in the woods, trapped under a tree, and you are set upon by a well-fed bear and two hungry wolves. A bear may feel like killing you possibly, the wolves which are starving will 100% kill you. The creatures begin to fight. Who do you hope wins? It is very possible the bear will kill the wolves and simply go on his way, or he may also kill you. But at least there was a chance with the bear of you surviving.
Seemed pretty clear that we were choosing between two dangerous outcomes in a helpless situation. Rooting for Godzilla over the MUTOS for our own survival was all we could do in the face of forces which we could do nothing about. Just happened to turn out to be the correct decision, Godzilla could have very easily burned down all of san fran as his victory celebration. (as he has done in other godzilla movies)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/19 16:56:46
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The most insect-like of all kaiju, and indeed probably the best-known kaiju after Godzilla, is Mothra. And she's known for her qualities of goodness, mercy, and as a defender.
Spoiler:
The MUTOs are characterized as tender to one another and protective of their young. Even if you ignore this humanizing characterization, they are only doing the natural thing: eating and rutting. Godzilla by contrast is shown as a relentless killer. Unlike an animal, he does not kill to eat. We are told he is "restoring balance" but that is never explained and ends up being another empty nothing uttered by the serially useless token Japanese guy. The only real idea we have as to why Godzilla is such a bastard to these poor MUTO animals is that at some stage in their life cycle they are parasites to other kaiju, possibly including Godzilla's species.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/05/19 17:06:35
Manchu wrote: The most insect-like of all kaiju, and indeed probably the best-known kaiju after Godzilla, is Mothra. And she's known for her qualities of goodness, mercy, and as a defender.
Yeah but she was supposed to be a phoneix-like character who didn't reproduce per se but was reborn over and over. If Godzilla was 'balance of nature' then Mothra was 'Kaiju police' as she kept the balance between fighting Kaijus when needed.
The MUTOs reminded me most of Megaguirus which is when they basically were a swarm and then combined into a large creature. They were basically aggressive, and should Godzilla fail to beat them, would have instantly wiped out earth via mass reproduction. The risk was not the MUTOS themselves, but the fact they were capable and intent on reproducing by the thousands. Again, while the MUTOS may have been reasonable creatures... their interests were more at odds with humanities interests than Godzilla's were. We were better off with a single murder-lizard than a thousand nice loving hungry bugs. That plot point was quickly conveyed... This is why you must root for Godzilla over MUTOS.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/19 17:13:18
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You seem to be really talking about r/K-selection theory, rather than insects.
Spoiler:
In real life, r-selection animals breed lots of young but have little or nothing to do with them. They also tend to be small-bodied. While Mamma MUTO lays lots of eggs, she's clearly a doting parent and nearly as big as Godzilla. The movie clearly wants to have its cake and eat it, too, with r/K-selection.
You're right, we are led to believe that the the threat is having a swarm of MUTOs born. But the logic of the movie itself belies this point: First, we know at least one part of their life cycle requires a kaiju host. Assuming mom and dad can't be the host, that leaves Godzilla and that's probably not enough real estate for hundreds or thousands of them. Second, there is not enough radiation food on modern earth to support so many of them. Godzilla is either a bastard or just an animal robotically following outdated instincts. Same goes for Ford.
nkelsch wrote: their interests were more at odds with humanities interests than Godzilla's were
Actually, we have no sense of what Godzilla's interests are.
Spoiler:
We have the semi-religious opinions of the dumbass Japanese guy who seems to know nothing about kaiju even though he spent his life studying the topic. But his balance theory is pretty clearly wrong or at least has zero basis in evidence. If we judge Godzilla by whether he or the MUTOs are ultimately better for humanity then Godzilla becomes a symbol reinforcing the arrogance of humanity, the idea that human's are the measuring stick, which is not only contrary to the franchise generally, the point of kaiju generally, and the 1954 film specifically but also to the 2014 script, where Watanabe explicitly critiques human arrogance.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/05/19 17:30:34
Manchu wrote: You seem to be really talking about r/K-selection theory, rather than insects.
Spoiler:
In real life, r-selection animals breed lots of young but have little or nothing to do with them. They also tend to be small-bodied. While Mamma MUTO lays lots of eggs, she's clearly a doting parent and nearly as big as Godzilla. The movie clearly wants to have its cake and eat it, too, with r/K-selection.
You're right, we are led to believe that the the threat is having a swarm of MUTOs born. But the logic of the movie itself belies this point: First, we know at least one part of their life cycle requires a kaiju host. Assuming mom and dad can't be the host, that leaves Godzilla and that's probably not enough real estate for hundreds or thousands of them. Second, there is not enough radiation food on modern earth to support so many of them. Godzilla is either a bastard or just an animal robotically following outdated instincts. Same goes for Ford.
nkelsch wrote: their interests were more at odds with humanities interests than Godzilla's were
Actually, we have no sense of what Godzilla's interests are.
Spoiler:
We have the semi-religious opinions of the dumbass Japanese guy who seems to know nothing about kaiju even though he spent his life studying the topic. But his balance theory is pretty clearly wrong or at least has zero basis in evidence. If we judge Godzilla by whether he or the MUTOs are ultimately better for humanity then Godzilla becomes a symbol reinforcing the arrogance of humanity, the idea that human's are the measuring stick, which is not only contrary to the franchise generally, the point of kaiju generally, and the 1954 film specifically but also to the 2014 script, where Watanabe explicitly critiques human arrogance.
We have a pair of creatures which will aggressively feed on nuclear material and reproduce by the thousands, and we have a creature which has been generally passive and ambivalent towards our existence for 50+ years and is not directly going out of its way to attack us.
I am sure right after this movie, Humanity will be back to 'ok, how do we kill godzilla' but at the moment, the issue was solving the MUTOs which were aggressively attacking aspects of human civilization and going to reproduce to wipe us out. Even in the old movies, "let's murder godzilla" was the core position of every movie, but we accept his help when something worse happens.
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Ahtman wrote: Aren't there animals that are fiercely territorial and will attack others that it feels threaten its territory? You know, besides humans.
IIRC, Rhinos and hippos are... aren't they? I know that I read somewhere that there are more humans attacked in Africa by hippos than by lions.
As I mentioned, we don't actually know that the MUTOs reproduce by the thousands or, even if we assume they do in the natural course of their lifecycles, whether they can successfully manage it on modern earth. The movie sends mixed messages about this and I tend to think, given the care taken with other aspects of the movie, this ambiguity is intended.
When he decides to kill the eggs, Ford is acting on an assumption that is fueled by his frustration, disgust, and fear. This may be understandable but is it forgivable? We might say that Ford, and humanity generally in this movie, are acting a lot more on instinct than from a rational perspective. Even the scientists can apparently only give us their feelings on the subject. When Graham is asked for alternative plans, which we might guess she's spent years working on, she can only storm out of the room. Serizawa just gawks his way through the film, occasionally offering unhelpful Yodaisms while doing nothing.
To the extent that humans actually do anything in this film, it is by acting like animals. And yes, that includes being really dumb. For example, they shoot missiles at the Golden Gate bridge while it is full of civilian (mostly children) refugees. And as I have discussed, the only significant action any human takes regarding the MUTOs is Ford killing the babies (the babies), an act bookended by clear signs that the MUTOs have intelligence and feeling, making Ford's act horrific to anyone able to think more than purely animalistic thoughts.
Humans are presnted as ignorant, arrogant, and monstrous in this film -- but not critically.
In this way, Godzilla ends up not as a symbol of man's smallness or a reminder of his responsibility but as a reaffirmation of his conceited, animal-like recklessness.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/19 17:51:39
Ahtman wrote: Aren't there animals that are fiercely territorial and will attack others that it feels threaten its territory? You know, besides humans.
Dogs
Gators
Giant freaking monsters.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
I think we can all agree that the true 'monster' has always been MAN.
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nkelsch wrote: I think we can all agree that the true 'monster' has always been MAN.
Yes, and that was certainly the criticism of humanity in the 1954 film. The 2014 film doesn't seem to criticize this, however.
Spoiler:
Instead of killing Godzilla and at the same time destroying a terrible human-made weapon, as the real Dr. Serizawa does in 1954, this Godzilla walks off to cheers and G.I. Joe the protagonist (literally as per the film's own visual language) easily reunites with mom and son.
As for me, I wondered if all those people hanging around Sleepy G (including our scientists) got incidentally killed when he woke up. It is completely in-character with the rest of the film that we don't find out.
This gives him a bigger opening week than Spider Man 2 and a comparable opening to Captain America. EDIT: Worldwide box office is nearly $200 million. And the film hasn't even opened in Japan yet.
