Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Easy E wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I wasn't sure how appropriate it would be

It's not. Remember, this is someone who is getting paid to be friendly to you and could get fired if she isn't. Aside from the ethical issues with a situation in which someone has limited ability to say no you just aren't going to be able to have a natural conversation. Unless she makes a move first and seems to be expressing interest in you beyond keeping her job and getting a good tip, just let it go. Until you get to that point whatever "mutual" interest you think you see is just the same thing every other customer is getting.

Just think about it this way: is the small chance of a relationship or hooking up with someone who you know absolutely nothing about worth the risk of ending up on one of those "creepy customer" sites?

That's why I recommend he tried going through his friends at the place to get some face time such as an introduction or something. However, it doesn't sound like that is an option. Then he's not :creepy customer" but ChaosXOmega the guy who knows the bartender.

I'll come right out and say it -- I don't think people actually get labeled a "creepy customer" unless they behave in a creepy way. And some friendly conversation or very light flirting doesn't qualify as creepy behavior in most instances, and shouldn't make wait staff horribly uncomfortable, get faces posted on websites, cause firings, spark the apocalypse, etc. It's just casual human interaction.

Now, getting too fixated on her, staring without smiling, then asking questions about her of her co-workers...eh.

Chaos, personally I'd probably create an excuse to wander over and talk to her about something within the context of her job, specifically at a less busy moment for her. Maybe ask her about making reservations for a larger group -- what could they accommodate, how much notice is required, etc. (This is really off the top of my head and it can be better developed, but you see where I'm going.)

Ask a few general questions so you can have just a little bit of back-and-forth conversation. Thank her, then introduce yourself and slip into a slightly more personal mode ("Oh, by the way, I'm [X]...my friends and I are here a lot on trivia night, so I guess we're semi-regulars around here." Maybe crack a joke ("We lose a lot, in case you're wondering."). If she seems friendly and engaged, maybe ask if she's new there, because you haven't seen her around until recently. Etc. Stay and talk as long as she's engaged in the conversation, but make a proper exit if she's obviously busy ("[X], nice meeting you and thank you so much...I'll see you around, okay?").

This isn't the actual script, but you get the general idea. Stay casual, SMILE, and don't treat it as some kind of watershed moment...just regular, friendly, human interaction.

 gorgon wrote:
And some friendly conversation or very light flirting doesn't qualify as creepy behavior in most instances, and shouldn't make wait staff horribly uncomfortable, get faces posted on websites, cause firings, spark the apocalypse, etc. It's just casual human interaction.

But remember, we're talking about people who are looking for dating advice, often on their first relationships. I'm sure there are people who can read all the right cues and never cross any lines, but for someone with such limited dating experience it's going to be very easy to cross those boundaries and put someone in a situation where they're uncomfortable but have to put up with it. And given that they're looking at this as "I need a strategy for getting a date with her" and not just casually talking to someone who happens to be at your table it's almost certain that a line will be crossed.

And remember, a big part of why it's so easy to be creepy is context. Talking to someone at their job is a situation where they have limited ability to say no and walk away, their job (and tip) depends on making you happy. So even if they're thinking "wow, this is really boring, I wish he'd shut up and just order his food" they'll still feel compelled to smile and chat with you. Essentially you're cornering someone and demanding to talk to them, whether or not you see it that way from your perspective. I'm all in favor of getting out and talking to people, but do it in a context where both people are equal and free of job obligations.

It's also been found that what a woman considers creepy behavior in the flirting department (not truly creepy behavior) is actually dependent on whether she finds the man attractive or not. So people should definitely take that into account as well. Possibly be a true geek and go look up flirting /interest indicators before a date to refresh.

 gorgon wrote:

 Easy E wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I wasn't sure how appropriate it would be

It's not. Remember, this is someone who is getting paid to be friendly to you and could get fired if she isn't. Aside from the ethical issues with a situation in which someone has limited ability to say no you just aren't going to be able to have a natural conversation. Unless she makes a move first and seems to be expressing interest in you beyond keeping her job and getting a good tip, just let it go. Until you get to that point whatever "mutual" interest you think you see is just the same thing every other customer is getting.

Just think about it this way: is the small chance of a relationship or hooking up with someone who you know absolutely nothing about worth the risk of ending up on one of those "creepy customer" sites?

That's why I recommend he tried going through his friends at the place to get some face time such as an introduction or something. However, it doesn't sound like that is an option. Then he's not :creepy customer" but ChaosXOmega the guy who knows the bartender.

Ask a few general questions so you can have just a little bit of back-and-forth conversation. Thank her, then introduce yourself and slip into a slightly more personal mode ("Oh, by the way, I'm [X]...my friends and I are here a lot on trivia night, so I guess we're semi-regulars around here." Maybe crack a joke ("We lose a lot, in case you're wondering."). If she seems friendly and engaged, maybe ask if she's new there, because you haven't seen her around until recently. Etc. Stay and talk as long as she's engaged in the conversation, but make a proper exit if she's obviously busy ("[X], nice meeting you and thank you so much...I'll see you around, okay?").

If I said that, it would be a lie, we're the defending champions! ;D

But remember, we're talking about people who are looking for dating advice, often on their first relationships.

Definitely not my first relationship... I don't know what number relationship I'm looking to get dragged into tbh (admittedly because the lines beetween which of my 'relationships' were actually relationships and which weren't is rather blurry, so basically it depends on how you count... I often say "I've never been in a real relationship" and thats technically false, though realistically....).

I'm sure there are people who can read all the right cues and never cross any lines, but for someone with such limited dating experience it's going to be very easy to cross those boundaries and put someone in a situation where they're uncomfortable but have to put up with it

I can read the right cues, but I'm overly cautious so I read into things too much and often become my own worse enemy... lets put it this way, the number of womenfolk who have told me "I used to have a massive crush on you back in xyz" is pretty staggering... it makes me feel bad :( )

And given that they're looking at this as "I need a strategy for getting a date with her" and not just casually talking to someone who happens to be at your table it's almost certain that a line will be crossed.

I don't think I'd cross any lines, but I don't want to risk taking a gak where I eat either...

Talking to someone at their job is a situation where they have limited ability to say no and walk away, their job (and tip) depends on making you happy.

She doesn't get tipped by us anyway since we have no interaction with any of the hostesses, Craig (our bartender) otoh never gets anything less than 40%, but yes otherwise you're correct. Hitting on a 'captive audience' is... well... its bad.

Possibly be a true geek and go look up flirting /interest indicators before a date to refresh.

Touching hair
Toes pointing at you
Exposing wrist/neck
Smiling
Laughing
Breathing
Living

(if you can't tell I don't buy into the whole IoI thing too much, unless you mean *actual* indicators, like blatant flirting, etc. and not the PUA stuff like body language and behavioral bs)

chaos0xomega wrote:
lets put it this way, the number of womenfolk who have told me "I used to have a massive crush on you back in xyz" is pretty staggering... it makes me feel bad :( )

It is not that bad, it means many women had a crush on you. Now you just need to be able to notice it when they do, and find one for which it is reciprocal.
Personally, no-one ever told me that they had a crush on me ever. Likely because no-one did.

Bro, you're really messing with my zen thing. Stop being so negative, find some confidence, thats likely the missing piece of the puzzle for you more than anything else.

Anyway, as for noticing when they do, in a way I do - or I should say I suspect - but I typically deny it to myself... unless of course they don't and I read the wrong signals...been SO SO SO wrong on that one so many times in the past....

chaos0xomega wrote:
Stop being so negative, find some confidence, thats likely the missing piece of the puzzle for you more than anything else.

Where would I find my confidence ?

chaos0xomega wrote:
Anyway, as for noticing when they do, in a way I do - or I should say I suspect - but I typically deny it to myself... unless of course they don't and I read the wrong signals...been SO SO SO wrong on that one so many times in the past....

Maybe get a third-party to check it for you beforehand or something? Hardly applicable if you do not have common friends though, I guess.

Third parties aren't necessarily reliable.

As for where you can find confidence, what is it that you do again? You're going for an advanced degree in computer science right? Theres something to draw confidence from, you're more educated than the average human being, even excluding the third world, etc.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Third parties aren't necessarily reliable.

Well, if you ask them “Do you think she is into me”, yes. they will not necessarily know better than you. But if you charge them with actually asking her if she is, then I guess they must be quite reliable .
Oh well, what do I know anyway!

chaos0xomega wrote:
As for where you can find confidence, what is it that you do again? You're going for an advanced degree in computer science right? Theres something to draw confidence from, you're more educated than the average human being, even excluding the third world, etc.

Yeah, I am doing a PhD in graph theory. That mean I can bore people by explaining the maths I do. If they are nice, they will pretend to be interested at the beginning . Math are not really popular in the general population .
That is hardly something that will make me interesting, or fun, or nice to be around…

Asking other people to find out for you is kinda juvenile imo.

And it doesnt matter if other people find it interesting, confidence has nothing to do with interest aside from generating interest in other people. The point of it is that it is something you yourself can be proud of and gain confidence from. Part of being confident is believing in yourself and your ability.

Why care about it being juvenile if it works? I mean, is the whole hobby that binds this forum together considered at least a bit juvenile by the vast majority of the population ?
Now, if you are not comfortable asking your friends to do that, I can understand.

Well, confidence will not come from my work. I would maybe be proud about it if I decided early that this was what I wanted to do, and had worked hard to get it, but really it is more like I never managed to make any decision, and just followed doing what seemed easier… And I am not really that good at it.
(Also there is the fact that almost everyone I know have at least an equivalent level of education, or will likely get one . Even the waiter at the Lebanese restaurant near my place has a PhD! )
I am not really good at anything. I am an okay-ish painter, an okay-ish player, an okay-ish climber, an okay-ish skier, an okay-ish researcher… and really pretty terrible at getting girlfriends!

If all else fails, you can do the Frazzled-age version of a wedding ceremony: thump her on the head with a club, drag her into the cave, and make babies by the fire, on the saber-toothed tiger rug.

No, thank you.
By the way, I watched Teeth again this evening with a friend of mine. Made me feel better: at least I know I will not get my penis eaten by some vagina .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-qd-k0Vg7s

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Why care about it being juvenile if it works? I mean, is the whole hobby that binds this forum together considered at least a bit juvenile by the vast majority of the population ?
Now, if you are not comfortable asking your friends to do that, I can understand.

Well, confidence will not come from my work. I would maybe be proud about it if I decided early that this was what I wanted to do, and had worked hard to get it, but really it is more like I never managed to make any decision, and just followed doing what seemed easier… And I am not really that good at it.
(Also there is the fact that almost everyone I know have at least an equivalent level of education, or will likely get one . Even the waiter at the Lebanese restaurant near my place has a PhD! )
I am not really good at anything. I am an okay-ish painter, an okay-ish player, an okay-ish climber, an okay-ish skier, an okay-ish researcher… and really pretty terrible at getting girlfriends!

You're killing here! Everyone has a redeeming quality of some sort... except Sean Avery, feth that guy. Maybe you should just come to the US or go to another foreign land? Being an 'outsider' with an accent is like x1000 hotness points, and (at least in the US) having a masters degree puts you well ahead of the curve.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Why care about it being juvenile if it works? I mean, is the whole hobby that binds this forum together considered at least a bit juvenile by the vast majority of the population ?
Now, if you are not comfortable asking your friends to do that, I can understand.

Well, confidence will not come from my work. I would maybe be proud about it if I decided early that this was what I wanted to do, and had worked hard to get it, but really it is more like I never managed to make any decision, and just followed doing what seemed easier… And I am not really that good at it.
(Also there is the fact that almost everyone I know have at least an equivalent level of education, or will likely get one . Even the waiter at the Lebanese restaurant near my place has a PhD! )
I am not really good at anything. I am an okay-ish painter, an okay-ish player, an okay-ish climber, an okay-ish skier, an okay-ish researcher… and really pretty terrible at getting girlfriends!

You are your own worst enemy. Stop tearing yourself down. You see it as being objective, but it is just being self-destructive. The truth is, everyone is a hot mess! Everyone has problems and issues and failures. Stop dwelling on the things you don;t like about yourself.

Every morning, tell yourself a different story. The first 30 time syou won't believe it at all. After you have done it a month, you will have a new positive self-talk attitude. You will have to be vigilant about the negative self-talk because we are all our own worst critics. However, we can also be our own best cheerleader.

For only three installments of $19.99 I can change your life!

you need to do this daily:





worked for me, I went from sleeping in the gutter, to sleeping on a big pile of money, with many beautiful women.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Everyone has a redeeming quality of some sort...

Well… I am a nice guy? Or I have awesome tastes in movies and music?
I am not particularly good at anything. I am not particularly bad either, generally.

chaos0xomega wrote:
except Sean Avery, feth that guy.

Who? Why? Wikipedia says he is a hockey player, but then what else?

chaos0xomega wrote:
Maybe you should just come to the US or go to another foreign land? Being an 'outsider' with an accent is like x1000 hotness points, and (at least in the US) having a masters degree puts you well ahead of the curve.

I have been in South Korea for 3 month. Loneliest time of my life. Really, that was pretty terrible. I did meet a few people that I still keep in contact with now, but when I was there, I hardly met them more than once or twice. Going to a foreign country where I can actually talk to people, in either French or English, is definitely something I plan to do though. I will try to get a temporary position in an English-speaking country after I finish my PhD, to improve my oral comprehension skills and my accent (though not sure if I should try to keep it, at least occasionally, since I heard French accent can be pretty popular).

 Easy E wrote:
Every morning, tell yourself a different story.

What kind of story? I am awesome and very intelligent and good-looking and everyone wants to be with me?

 Easy E wrote:
For only three installments of $19.99 I can change your life!

Where do I send the money ?

 easysauce wrote:
worked for me, I went from sleeping in the gutter, to sleeping on a big pile of money, with many beautiful women.

You should try beds. More comfortable than money. The women will thank you too .

From doing a lot of reading recently, never, ever, ever call yourself a Nice Guy. Even (especially?) when you genuinely are.

My opinion is, something that can really objectively help, is spending a couple of hours sitting down and reading the #yesallwomen tag on Twitter.

I dunno about you guys but, even now, well into my 20's and a pretty geeky guy, if I met a girl I was really, instantly attracted to, I would pretty much still be falling over myself, like some horrible 80's nerdy comedy character. However, girls I weren't necessarily attracted to, I get on fine with, because they were just people.

Anyway, that's my current theory I'm working from at the moment.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Everyone has a redeeming quality of some sort...

Well… I am a nice guy? Or I have awesome tastes in movies and music?
I am not particularly good at anything. I am not particularly bad either, generally..

I doubt thats true, but even still, if you're only average at everything you do (which is what you're telling me when you say you're not good or bad at anything), you're still pretty good. You might not be the master of anything, but you are a jack of all trades, and not very many people can claim to be average at everything. Theres nothing wrong with being strictly average, just don't be below average.

Who? Why? Wikipedia says he is a hockey player, but then what else?

Twas a joke my friend. He's a terrible terrible human being and a sad excuse for a hockey player lol.

I have been in South Korea for 3 month. Loneliest time of my life. Really, that was pretty terrible. I did meet a few people that I still keep in contact with now, but when I was there, I hardly met them more than once or twice. Going to a foreign country where I can actually talk to people, in either French or English, is definitely something I plan to do though. I will try to get a temporary position in an English-speaking country after I finish my PhD, to improve my oral comprehension skills and my accent (though not sure if I should try to keep it, at least occasionally, since I heard French accent can be pretty popular).

I've heard Koreans are fairly insular culturally speaking (my experience has been limited to Korean Americans whom Ive grown up with since I was a small child, so I dont know how true it is), the English, Americans, and Australians tend to be a bit more open, but you also have to be willing to talk to them. I think the accent goes a long way, nothing wrong with having one, it mights for a good talking point too

What kind of story? I am awesome and very intelligent and good-looking and everyone wants to be with me?

Yup, pretty much this.

You should try beds. More comfortable than money. The women will thank you too .

I lol'd. You have a sense of humor!

From doing a lot of reading recently, never, ever, ever call yourself a Nice Guy. Even (especially?) when you genuinely are.

Fact. The n-word is what women use to disqualify you ("You're a nice guy, but..."), using it to refer to yourself will effectively kill your chances. Its a really odd dynamic that I haven't quite figured out, but its like theres some subliminal connotation with that word that (if used in self reference) that will turn them off.

I dunno about you guys but, even now, well into my 20's and a pretty geeky guy, if I met a girl I was really, instantly attracted to, I would pretty much still be falling over myself, like some horrible 80's nerdy comedy character. However, girls I weren't necessarily attracted to, I get on fine with, because they were just people.

Same... and then if I do develop an attraction to a girl that I was previously good with, I go back to falling over myself... its pretty terrible

I think it's because 'Nice Guy' has very different meanings for many guys and many girls. You also need to take into account peoples personal narrative.

So basically, something that should be thought of, is that, while lets say, a random guy describes himself as a 'nice guy' meaning well, he's not a jerk.

A random girl, seeing that 'Nice Guy' phrase, may be immediately reminded of that former male friend of hers who thought they could 'token machine' their way into dating her, it didn't work, then massively blew up at her for it. - I imagine the odds of this happening to a girl once in their life is pretty high, sadly. Or, at least, happening in her immediate group of friends.

So, it probably is an alarm bell phrase as a result of that. Maybe.

I may be talking rubbish. - It's not the first time!

Everyone knows that nice guys finish last.

That should always work in your favour.

 Compel wrote:
From doing a lot of reading recently, never, ever, ever call yourself a Nice Guy. Even (especially?) when you genuinely are.

Yeah, hence the emoticon. I was being facetious. Same thing for tastes. There are no good tastes, just tastes. Those were basically the worse answers I could find.

 Compel wrote:
My opinion is, something that can really objectively help, is spending a couple of hours sitting down and reading the #yesallwomen tag on Twitter.

Nope, I really cannot relate in any way to most if not all the behavior described there, and because it usually depresses me. I do regularly read feminist articles though. It will maybe help me be a better person (that is why I am reading them), but it will certainly not help me get a girlfriend. If anything, it will make it harder, I guess.
I do not blame anyone else but me. If a woman do not want to be with me, then the problem is not with her, it is with me. And I actually, genuinely care about not making them uncomfortable, or about invading other people's privacy in general. I avoid judging people harshly, and I certainly do not judge them on any sexual practice that involves only (any number of) consenting partners.
Also somehow related, when I was watching Edge of Tomorrow, even while I enjoyed the movie, I was thinking in the background “Hey, this movie will not pass the Bechdel test” and “Why is she kissing him? She knows him for less than 24 hours, and in this timeline she did not even have had the time to know him. It is really only because he is about to save the world, that entertains the terrible idea of sex as a reward” and stuff. Reading all those text on the internet definitely had quite an influence on me. The movie was generally good, though.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Twas a joke my friend. He's a terrible terrible human being and a sad excuse for a hockey player lol.

Yes, that was what I was curious about. Why is he a terrible human being?

chaos0xomega wrote:
I've heard Koreans are fairly insular culturally speaking (my experience has been limited to Korean Americans whom Ive grown up with since I was a small child, so I dont know how true it is), the English, Americans, and Australians tend to be a bit more open, but you also have to be willing to talk to them.

The real problem with Koreans is that most of them do not speak English (or so few it does not help much), and I do not speak Korean. Other problem is I was at work most of the time (about 10AM to 10PM, six days a week), and they were busy too. But apart from that, those I spoke to were very nice people. Actually I met one girl there because I was waiting in the line for the bus, it was raining, and she had an umbrella, so she proposed me to come under the umbrella. How nice is that ?

chaos0xomega wrote:
Fact. The n-word is what women use to disqualify you ("You're a nice guy, but..."), using it to refer to yourself will effectively kill your chances. Its a really odd dynamic that I haven't quite figured out, but its like theres some subliminal connotation with that word that (if used in self reference) that will turn them off.

If the best thing one can think of about himself is that you are a nice guy, it should not come as a surprise he is not that attractive. I mean, that is basically the backup solution when you have nothing else. And let us be serious, if you were to choose between the nice, boring, stupid, bland girl or the witty, cultured, interesting girl with whom you have a lot of common interest but which is a little more wicked, which one would you choose? Certainly I would choose the one who is fun to be around, and it is no wonder it works the same way for girls. That seems just like common sense when you think about it this way.
Not to mention the whole nice guy phenomenon. I read some nice long article on it, but it is in French, sadly.

Re: Sean Avery... I can't even begin, lets just say that most of his teammates and the fans of the teams hes played for hated him, as did his coaches (one of which famously said that if his team was to win the Stanley Cup then he needed to field NHL quality players before sending him down to the minor leagues), and then there is this:




which famously lead to the implementation of a rule just to stop that kind of behavior (Avery is the dickbag in blue).

chaos0xomega wrote:
and then there is this:




which famously lead to the implementation of a rule just to stop that kind of behavior (Avery is the dickbag in blue).

I have no idea how hockey works, what he is trying to do, and why that is not cool.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well… I am a nice guy?

I subbed this thread a while back, it's been interesting/amusing/enlightening.
Upon reading the above quote, it instantly reminded me of an article I read on Cracked.com.

The article is great, I have it book marked and re-read it every 3-4 weeks. And whilst not being directly applicable to getting a date, it's definately worth a read.
It might be a little hard to hear, but pour yourself a drink and read this Cracked.com article. I'm going to re-read it now...

 Zambro wrote:
Upon reading the above quote, it instantly reminded me of an article I read on Cracked.com.

Yeah, I know. Because I remember it too . It has already been posted around here. Maybe in this very thread, I do not remember.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Zambro wrote:
Upon reading the above quote, it instantly reminded me of an article I read on Cracked.com.

Yeah, I know. Because I remember it too . It has already been posted around here. Maybe in this very thread, I do not remember.

I dont think it was in this thread. I, too, found it somewhere on dakka, quite a while back

 Zambro wrote:
I dont think it was in this thread.

Fear my Google-Fu !

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/582154.page#6583048

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Zambro wrote:
I dont think it was in this thread.

Fear my Google-Fu !

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/582154.page#6583048

You can add “strong Google-Fu” to the things you are good at. One more thing you are good at that you bring to the table.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:


French or English, is definitely something I plan to do though. I will try to get a temporary position in an English-speaking country after I finish my PhD, to improve my oral skills and my accent (though not sure if I should try to keep it, at least occasionally, since I heard French accent can be pretty popular).
.

FTFY
With that kind of positive attitude, I can see you being a hit with the ladies