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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/02 17:06:46
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Voluntary manslaughter?
Are you sure you don't mean vehicular homicide, or did your friend intend to hurt someone with their car but not kill them?
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/02 17:06:57
Subject: Re:known forgeries and a moral question
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Oberstleutnant
Back in the English morass
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No, they are not. No matter how many times you repeat yourself you will still not be correct. It is afterall very easy to drive dangerously while staying well within the speed limit. The roads at home for instance have a 60mph limit but given that they are single track with limited visability you would be a fool to drive at that speed.
Some people know how to drive far better than others. I know how to drive.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/02 17:34:19
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/02 18:50:13
Subject: Re:known forgeries and a moral question
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
On an Express Elevator to Hell!!
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I can assure you that, living in the countryside, the roads around here are there most dangerous on a Sunday when a lot of the drivers around here are doing a good 10-15mph beneath the speedlimit in most cases. Anyone from the UK will know what I mean..
What was this thread about again though? Someone has displayed almost Testify-like levels of misdirection here
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/02 19:04:55
Subject: Re:known forgeries and a moral question
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Oberstleutnant
Back in the English morass
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Recasting, which means its inevitably going to get locked anyway so why hold back?
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The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/02 21:24:13
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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[DCM]
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Where the heck does nkelsch live?!?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/02 21:31:45
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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Martial Arts Fiday
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Orwellianville. All the cameras get blinded a lot by his shiny armor and pristine white tunic.
I'm just assuming he's a Paladin by trade.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/02 21:32:53
"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
-Nobody Ever
Proverbs 18:2
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
warboss wrote:
GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up. 
Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.
EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.
Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/02 21:34:33
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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Fixture of Dakka
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Damn, 3 pages in already....I'll just reset my watch and see you lot here in what, two days at the next thread on the same topic?
I kind of skimmed through, did I miss the obligatory "Stealing, not stealing" debate or comparing IP infringement to murder or something equally as asinine?
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Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/02 21:51:11
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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SlaveToDorkness wrote:Orwellianville. All the cameras get blinded a lot by his shiny armor and pristine white tunic.
I'm just assuming he's a Paladin by trade.
Not all of us can be Lawful Awful.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/02 21:56:44
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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I was going to say "Draconia", but Orwellianville is better.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/02 21:59:34
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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[DCM]
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Platuan4th wrote: SlaveToDorkness wrote:Orwellianville. All the cameras get blinded a lot by his shiny armor and pristine white tunic.
I'm just assuming he's a Paladin by trade.
Not all of us can be Lawful Awful.
Ha!
I just had to explain that one to my daughter after you made me LOL!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/02 23:17:34
Subject: Re:known forgeries and a moral question
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Houston, TX
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Stranger83 wrote: Ouze wrote:Stranger83 wrote:[Without trying to say this is at the same level - but if you saw someone being mugged in the street would you not report it because the police should find it out on their own? Afterall the Police annual budget is probably larger than GW
Games Workshop doesn't fit my idea of a defenseless victim in need of assistance from passerby. It's a poor analogy. GWS has a very large and aggressive legal department and I find the idea that unpaid volunteers should scour the internet to defend their profit margins laughable.
Go volunteer in a soup kitchen if you wish to actually help someone that can use it.
So if you see a mugger being beaten up by some vigilantes then you wouldn't report this either? What if they were using baseball bats? What if they had a knife?
If you saw an actual genie magically make a its master a sandwich, would you report it?
Lets stop equating the theoretical loss of a potential sale with actual threat against life and limb. Its not even the same as actually taking an item. The sooner people stop using absurd non-equivocal arguments the sooner others will take anti piracy arguments seriously.
Report it to ebay if it bothers you, but don't expect much response. There have been recasters on there for years.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/02 23:23:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/02 23:19:41
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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Posts with Authority
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Platuan4th wrote: SlaveToDorkness wrote:Orwellianville. All the cameras get blinded a lot by his shiny armor and pristine white tunic.
I'm just assuming he's a Paladin by trade.
Not all of us can be Lawful Awful.
Oi, mate!
There's naught wrong with bein' o' the Lawful persuasion!
An' me own armour is shinin' grey, what?!
The Auld Grump
*Translation* I am not at all a fan of GW - but I also think that buying from recasters is a bad thing, you understand?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/02 23:22:08
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 01:35:12
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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Fixture of Dakka
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azreal13 wrote:Voluntary manslaughter?
Are you sure you don't mean vehicular homicide, or did your friend intend to hurt someone with their car but not kill them?
Nope... Washington DC.
(3) possessed reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life (that is, demonstrated an “abandoned and malignant heart”);
DUI, Drugs, Speeding, Aggressive Driving, disobeying traffic laws (like driving wrong way) all fall under this in DC if you hit and run and someone dies. They show you intended to put others at risk, hurt someone and didn't bother checking them means you intentionally intended in causing their death.
You can fight it, or plea to less, but the laws in DC are 30 years, voluntary manslaughter.
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My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog!
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RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
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MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 01:37:41
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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nkelsch wrote: azreal13 wrote:Voluntary manslaughter?
Are you sure you don't mean vehicular homicide, or did your friend intend to hurt someone with their car but not kill them?
Nope... Washington DC.
(3) possessed reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life (that is, demonstrated an “abandoned and malignant heart”);
DUI, Drugs, Speeding, Aggressive Driving, disobeying traffic laws (like driving wrong way) all fall under this in DC if you hit and run and someone dies. They show you intended to put others at risk, hurt someone and didn't bother checking them means you intentionally intended in causing their death.
You can fight it, or plea to less, but the laws in DC are 30 years, voluntary manslaughter.
Voluntary manslaughter is an intentional killing distinguishable from murder by the existence of adequate provocation. This, for example, is the husband returning home to find his wife in bed with his best friend who, in a moment of sudden and intense passion without any time to reflect, kills both of them. He is still guilty but to a lesser degree of culpability.
You're sure you mean voluntary manslaughter?
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 02:27:17
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot
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Ok, so I think we have gone off on a tangent here, lets get back ot, this is not about speeding or buying recasts, simply about should you report someone if you know they are making fake models for a fact (there are plenty of Russian and Chinese sellers on ebay whom are likely selling recasts but you cant be sure). lets widen it a little and say any models, not just GW?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 02:31:22
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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As someone who has been sorely tempted to go down this road, I've done my research, you can widen it to say any models, but with a small selection of some manufacturers as an exception, you'll barely find any.
As one could certainly infer from my posts, I really don't consider it a big enough deal to waste time over (although I appear to be happy spending a longer time period discussing it, I'm a mess of contradictions, me.)
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 02:50:29
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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Fixture of Dakka
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Re-casters will only recast stuff that has merit only, GW, Forgeworld, and PP has miniatures that are in a price range to make copies.
On the Moral side, Those GW casts come close to Brand copies i see here in Asia, i have seen Lego and Gundam toy copies in Vietnam (just in the wrong colors) all made in China.
In Western countries GW use legal powers to shut down re-casters, But in China and Russia, not much is done about IP infringement.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 06:26:42
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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Screamin' Stormboy
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Sirius42 wrote:Part of me posting this here is because I was somewhat shocked at how brazen the seller was about it, admitting in a eBay message it was a copy (unless forgeworld actually has a Chinese division?). There are a few other sellers floating about of a similar ilk, for example item description 'this is an exquisite reproduction of forgeworld's 'add item name'.
And not just recasts. I've also seen an increase in "copy codexes" being used.
I can't, and won't, condone such things. But I will point out that Games Workshop, to a degree, has brought this upon themselves. High prices combined with a general discontent among the fans have created an environment where no-one seems to care. Not because they think it's legal or justified, but simply because they're not going to lift a finger to help Games Workshop.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 09:01:38
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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Jehan-reznor wrote:Re-casters will only recast stuff that has merit only, GW, Forgeworld, and PP has miniatures that are in a price range to make copies.
On the Moral side, Those GW casts come close to Brand copies i see here in Asia, i have seen Lego and Gundam toy copies in Vietnam (just in the wrong colors) all made in China.
In Western countries GW use legal powers to shut down re-casters, But in China and Russia, not much is done about IP infringement.
And this gives me a funny thought. If the source cannot be controlled, could GW look for angle to mitigate the medium through which the sales are made. I.e. GW approached eBay over the repeated sale of copies.
This wouldn't necessarily mean court case, possibly eBay withdrawing GW product actegories en masse from the site. Highly unlikely but it would certainly be a step toward limiting availability of recasts.
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How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 11:42:58
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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Unstoppable Bloodthirster of Khorne
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notprop wrote:
And this gives me a funny thought. If the source cannot be controlled, could GW look for angle to mitigate the medium through which the sales are made. I.e. GW approached eBay over the repeated sale of copies.
This wouldn't necessarily mean court case, possibly eBay withdrawing GW product actegories en masse from the site. Highly unlikely but it would certainly be a step toward limiting availability of recasts.
Slippery slope there - if GW had it's way, all sales of "their" models would be pulled from eBay. New, used - all of it! They greatly despise the secondhand market.
I may be misremembering, but I think they tried that one on once, a few years ago and eBay told them to go jump. First Sale doctrine and all. Which of course makes such requests essentially illegal.
In a nutshell:
The first-sale doctrine creates a basic exception to the copyright holder's distribution right. Once the work is lawfully sold or even transferred gratuitously, the copyright owner's interest in the material object in which the copyrighted work is embodied is exhausted. The owner of the material object can then dispose of it as he sees fit. Thus, one who buys a copy of a book is entitled to resell it, rent it, give it away, or destroy it. However, the owner of the copy of the book will not be able to make new copies of the book because the first-sale doctrine does not limit copyright owner's reproduction right. The rationale of the doctrine is to prevent the copyright owner from restraining the free alienability of goods. Without the doctrine, a possessor of a copy of a copyrighted work would have to negotiate with the copyright owner every time he wished to dispose of his copy. After the initial transfer of ownership of a legal copy of a copyrighted work, the first-sale doctrine exhausts copyright holder's right to control how ownership of that copy can be disposed of. For this reason, this doctrine is also referred to as "exhaustion rule."
TL R - If you legally aquire an object, it's yours and you're legally allowed to do whatever you like with it, including resell it on eBay, and GW doesn't get to say or do anything at all about it. To you, me or eBay.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 14:31:11
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps
Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry
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Quid pro quo ...
You should report recasters, and make the official and legal holder of the item's design know about the sales.
But, tell them why you did it, and what you want them to do if they want you to continue doing so.
If you have issues with GW (in this case), air a grievance or two.
Azazelx wrote:TL R - If you legally aquire an object, it's yours and you're legally allowed to do whatever you like with it, including resell it on eBay, and GW doesn't get to say or do anything at all about it. To you, me or eBay.
Ever heard of 'receiving stolen goods'?
Having bought illegal goods, it's your responsibility to report the sale.
Not that recasting is exactly the same thing, but I'm sure it's close.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/03 14:34:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 14:43:44
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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Azazelx wrote:.....
TL R - If you legally aquire an object, it's yours and you're legally allowed to do whatever you like with it, including resell it on eBay, and GW doesn't get to say or do anything at all about it. To you, me or eBay.
Legally acquired being the hook for that US law.
If eBay cannot ensure they are repeatedly allowing/enabling the sale of counterfeit goods (how can you tell with some painted models?) then and they are shown to be unable to police this eBay might choose to pull (I'm guessing?) a minor category or to mitigate their risk. As I say entirely unlikely but a curious possibility.
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How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 14:47:53
Subject: Re:known forgeries and a moral question
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Irked Necron Immortal
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Ebay is a business and make a fee from each and every sale. That being the case Ebay would never drop the GW category and lose money.
They have no reason to remove the whole GW category because it is no in their interest to do so.
They can remove reported copies but I think that is as far as Ebay will ever go.
There is really no positive angle that I can see for Ebay helping GW out with its problem.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 15:04:18
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer
Boston, MA
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Home taping is killing music!
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Kabal of the Slit Throat ~2000pts
Elect of the Plaguefather 4500pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 15:10:57
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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Fixture of Dakka
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DVR killed the movie star....
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Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 16:21:38
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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Skinnereal wrote:Quid pro quo ...
You should report recasters, and make the official and legal holder of the item's design know about the sales.
But, tell them why you did it, and what you want them to do if they want you to continue doing so.
If you have issues with GW (in this case), air a grievance or two.
Azazelx wrote:TL R - If you legally aquire an object, it's yours and you're legally allowed to do whatever you like with it, including resell it on eBay, and GW doesn't get to say or do anything at all about it. To you, me or eBay.
Ever heard of 'receiving stolen goods'?
Having bought illegal goods, it's your responsibility to report the sale.
Not that recasting is exactly the same thing, but I'm sure it's close.
And how do you go about proving it? There are few certain ways to identify a recast, you should be sure before throwing accusations of recasting around. Also it would be very difficult to prove a customer *knew* they were buying recasts for the same reason. 'Receiving stolen goods' is used to prosecute people fencing stolen goods in which they clearly are aiding criminal behaviour. It's not there to penalise someone buying a knock off handbag.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 16:28:28
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps
Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry
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All true, but it's not as simple as assuming what you buy off the internet is legit. Just like the bloke in the pub might seems above-board.
If they wanted to prove prior knowledge, there's the email trails and sale posting comments list.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 16:44:15
Subject: Re:known forgeries and a moral question
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
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I realise this is almost mandatory on the Internet, but can people please stop using terrible analogies in support of arguments?
Here are a couple of pointers:
1) IP Infringement law is (in most countries) a civil rather than a criminal matter. It is typically used by organisations looking to recover arbitrary damages, often determined by themselves. Comparing it to theft, burglary and mugging - crimes where individuals are affected or even physically hurt - just makes you look silly.
Hint: really the only suitable examples you can make would be other kinds of infringement, such as bootleg movies or music
2) Hyperbole doesn't help matters either. Please consider both sides of your example before posting it. For example:
A) Shooting a gun into a crowd vs not shooting a gun into a crowd - in one of these scenarios people can be hurt, in the other they can't.
B) Driving while breaking the speed limit vs driving while not breaking the speed limit - in both of these scenarios it is still possible for people to be hurt.
The two situations just don't compare.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 17:19:05
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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Foxy Wildborne
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Law and morals aren't the same thing.
Personally I would go for half price GW/ FW recasts (of identical or superior quality to originals) every time without even a pang of guilt.
Sirius42 wrote:Ok, so I think we have gone off on a tangent here, lets get back ot, this is not about speeding or buying recasts, simply about should you report someone if you know they are making fake models for a fact (there are plenty of Russian and Chinese sellers on ebay whom are likely selling recasts but you cant be sure). lets widen it a little and say any models, not just GW?
Maybe grow up and don't ask random strangers on the internet to provide you a moral compass and tell you how strongly you should enforce it. If you feel you should report him, do it. Otherwise don't.
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The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/03 17:37:59
Subject: known forgeries and a moral question
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Devastating Dark Reaper
Virginia
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lord_blackfang wrote:...Personally I would go for half price GW/ FW recasts (of identical or superior quality to originals) every time without even a pang of guilt...
I've been shown by friends* some Chinese recasts and if it's to be believed then the Chinese or at least one company is now making higher quality GW product at half the price. I suspect that this could be the driving motivator behind Finecast going away so quickly. GWs answer to the problem is to stop selling the product. If that's the reason Forge World is not long for this world...
*Up until recently these guys would not have bought anything like this. However it appears the hurdle has been overcome and they don't care anymore they say they just want a quality product at a reasonable price and that's what they buy.
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