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Hey guys,

I had a question on tactical squads, I frequently, if not always see them geared to the teeth with as many special or heavy weapons as possible. I was wondering if it is a good idea to run several teams with just bolt guns, no additional weapons. In my head it seems like a good idea with the Imperial Fists' Chapter tactics, but what do you guys think?

I find that plasma/combi-plas works out very, very well since plasma has the same profile as the boltgun. Other than plasma, I agree with you. Heavy weapons are bleh in tacticals.

There is little downside to taking a special. If nothing else the plasmagun shares range and rapid fire, so maybe that is a good choice. I agree that heavy weapons are a bad choice in tactical squads.

Ninja'd. I rarely agree with Martel, so our agreement on this issue is probably pretty good indication that we're on the right track.

I take both a special and a heavy, (and a fully loaded sergeant) but I play Salamanders so that skews the answer. I could definitely see an IF force paying for the heavy bolter as a special, since the bolter drill would apply to it and might make it a more appealing choice, especially given its low cost.

If you're building a list to capitalize on the IF's strengths, then massed bolter fire may be the way to go. I don't have enough experience to state definitively whether or not choosing specials or heavies would be a good option, but I would lean towards still taking the plasma gun and experimenting in a few games with heavy bolters, just to see if they were worth their costs.

The Codex dictates that all tactical squads are to be deployed at a full 10 men, armed with both a special and a heavy weapon. Now I realize that not all marines follow the codex as strictly as they should, and respect the victories my battle-brothers can achieve with their divergent tactics. But I’m an Ultramarine, and I’ve been fielding my squads they proper way since the RT era. I’m not changing my ways now.

That said, I could see a very strong case for a highly mobile squad to leave the heavy at home. Particularly for non-Ultramarine CTs. Ultras have 2/3s of their chapter tactics that can mitigate heavy weapons on the move, not all marines have that luxury.

I see no problem with it but at the same time the benefit may be fairly minor.

Saving 15-35 points per squad may matter if you're buying something worthwhile with those points.
Basic Marines with Bolters and Krak Grenades are still a threat to many targets.

I played against a Dark Angels list with 3 10-Man Marine squads with Plasma Guns and Cannons that all broke up into combat squads. It was annoying, because unlike a Devestator squad, you couldn't concentrate fire on the Heavy Weapons guys because they were split across 3 different squads with 4 Body shields each. That also gave him great scoring capability.
However, that also cost him a bunch of points, and the damage output was frustrating but not overpowering. Being split up so much meant that killing off his squads one by one wasn't difficult, and his lack of transports heavily limited mobility. I ended up winning because he simply didn't have the firepower or mobility to kill my Long Fangs behind an Aegis line. (5 Missile Launchers, 5 Plasma Cannons, Tigurius, amd an Inquisitor.It was a big castle that he couldn't destroy or get around.)

IMO - it's a good idea in order to free up points into more specialized squads/units. It allows you more bodies and units to throw onto objectives and for Imperial Fists, your mileage is decent with bolters. This also means that you aren't snap shooting a rocket at a squad that only needs bolters nor not firing your bolters when you need to drop a tank. Lastly, this puts more importance on a dedicated unit to handle the anti-tank and makes such a more juicy target for your opponent to take out.

 Nevelon wrote:
The Codex dictates that all tactical squads are to be deployed at a full 10 men, armed with both a special and a heavy weapon. Now I realize that not all marines follow the codex as strictly as they should, and respect the victories my battle-brothers can achieve with their divergent tactics. But I’m an Ultramarine, and I’ve been fielding my squads they proper way since the RT era. I’m not changing my ways now.

That said, I could see a very strong case for a highly mobile squad to leave the heavy at home. Particularly for non-Ultramarine CTs. Ultras have 2/3s of their chapter tactics that can mitigate heavy weapons on the move, not all marines have that luxury.

I wish this worked better in practice for me. I've found the heavy in tac squads to be a liability.

Since I often run SW as allies for the RP i find this squad is fantastic ...

160: 10 Grey Hunters; 2 Plasma Guns -- Space Wolves

Space Wolves are still great as allies ... 10 point PGs with the second one free - oh yes. Forty point razorbacks? Oh yes. As allies they are really good.

Barebones bolters and maybe a meltabomb on the sergeant in a pod is my go-to for Imperial Fists. Lets Marines focus on killing one type of enemy, while Devs focus on transports, and then my Elite slot can be directed to kill MEQ/TEQ.

I'd say it's a better idea with dark angels and the banner of devastation.

I always wanted to see a Camo cloak and bolter scout spam list backed up by the SoD. If you positioned objectives right it would be pretty mean.

 Nevelon wrote:
The Codex dictates that all tactical squads are to be deployed at a full 10 men, armed with both a special and a heavy weapon. Now I realize that not all marines follow the codex as strictly as they should, and respect the victories my battle-brothers can achieve with their divergent tactics. But I’m an Ultramarine, and I’ve been fielding my squads they proper way since the RT era. I’m not changing my ways now.

The issue being that sticking to fluff isn't all that significant when it comes to tactical discussion. It'd be nice if all the armies performed well and fluffy, but often a bit of one or the other has to be sacrificed.

Plus, codex astartes was written by the tactically and strategically inept. So, there's that, too.

Martel732 wrote:
Plus, codex astartes was written by the tactically and strategically inept. So, there's that, too.

Should've been written by the Lion. Might have had something then.

The Space Marines in general are a bunch of fools and idiots. It's no surprise that their war manual is mega crap.

Martel732 wrote:
The Space Marines in general are a bunch of fools and idiots. It's no surprise that their war manual is mega crap.

Much like the pirate code its merely a set of guidelines. Even the Ultramarines will deviate from it to get the job done on occasion, they just don't like to talk about then go home and then whip themselves as penance for thinking outside of the box.

That being said I find myself running a few ten man + melta gun or plasma gun squad in a rhino, while i will run something like a 10 man squad with a flamer/melta+ PC in a razorback and leaving the plasma cannon in the backfield. I also play with Calgar often so more boots on the ground is helpful to me.

since the 6th ed codex, I've been leaving the heavies at home and just bringing specials amd combis with my 10-man squads. when I bring a heavy, the squad has an identity crisis. most heavies are geared towards anti-armor, which bolters are not. so, the squad has to decide if it wants to shoot 9 bolters at infantry or 1 big gun at a transport/tank off in the distance. furthermore, the squad has to decide if it's going to be on the move and shoot the big gun poorly or sit still and shoot the big gun well (but sacrifice a turn of bolter fire and objective grabbing in the process). it gets marginally better if you use combat squads, but then your 4 guys babysitting the heavy are consigned to being ablative wounds for a single-shot heavy support choice. it just doesn't feel like points well spent these days.

I use elite slots (LotD melta squads) and heavy support slots (devs, dev cents) for the big guns and have my tactical squads focus on being mobile AI and objective grabbers.

Special Weapons almost always are useful, however Heavy Weapons are a little bleh...There use is much more....optional....

If you're planning on charging, Combi-Meltas and plain Meltaguns are great because they have high strength, low AP, and are (most importantly) ASSAULT weapons. This means you can still fire off your Special Weapons and get off a charge. If you aren't assaulting, though, Plasmaguns are usually better in my experience. (I bring 2-4 Meltaguns in case of really tough tanks, but with the exception of Land Raiders and Monoliths, Plasma Guns can often go Tank Hunting in their spare time. Against AV 10-11, I'd even say that they are as deadly as Meltaguns, and against Monstrous Creatures and the like you're far better off with Plasma.)

Who assaults with tac marines?

Martel732 wrote:
Who assaults with tac marines?

I've seen it happen. Usually, it's either to wipe out really weak squads, or tie up a unit that would otherwise cause havoc in the shooting phase. For example, if you've got ten Marines and you're within a few inches of 10 Devestators with maxed out heavy weapons, you're better off charging them (And causing more damage than them, because you get the +1 for charging with otherwise identical stats) than trying to either wipe them out with shooting or end up taking their shooting phase on their turn. However, that's not something you plan for so much as something that could possibly maybe come up.

I'll assault to deny the charge bonus to an enemy unit, but assault in general is just a really terrible place for your marines to be. for the emperor's finest, they are pretty terrible in melee :(

 varl wrote:
I'll assault to deny the charge bonus to an enemy unit, but assault in general is just a really terrible place for your marines to be. for the emperor's finest, they are pretty terrible in melee :(

I played one game, I was assaulted by 2 squads of 5 Marines (Both with a captain who had a power sword.) Against my 8 Grey Hunters.
We both caused equal damage, then on my turn I caused *more* damage, then he charged in 4 more Marines..He lost 9 Tacticals to kill my 8 guys, and it took him 4 Rounds.
I lol'd. And then it was turn 4 and my last Drop Pod (Which had roflfailed every turn to come in) Deep struck and I finished him off.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 varl wrote:
I'll assault to deny the charge bonus to an enemy unit, but assault in general is just a really terrible place for your marines to be. for the emperor's finest, they are pretty terrible in melee :(

I played one game, I was assaulted by 2 squads of 5 Marines (Both with a captain who had a power sword.) Against my 8 Grey Hunters.
We both caused equal damage, then on my turn I caused *more* damage, then he charged in 4 more Marines..He lost 9 Tacticals to kill my 8 guys, and it took him 4 Rounds.
I lol'd. And then it was turn 4 and my last Drop Pod (Which had roflfailed every turn to come in) Deep struck and I finished him off.

it's the one attack base that does them in, I think. if it were just base 2, assaulting with marines would be such a different (and potentially worthwhile) experience...

I'm a firm believer in Tactical Arms 1.5 (1.0 was flamer and missile launcher, which never worked right) ... Flamer and heavy bolter. This gives you concentrated dakka without sacrificing the heavy weapon or special, and you lose the confusion of an anti-armor weapon ... everyone knows to bolter the face off of enemy infantry and lets the heavy units deal with tanks.

Cheap and effective, you can't go wrong.

1 plazma shot is so much more valuable than 1 bolter shot that it's hard to discribe.

 koooaei wrote:
1 plazma shot is so much more valuable than 1 bolter shot that it's hard to discribe.

Often, but not always. Against an IG trooper, a Hormagaunt, a Termagant, an Ork boy a Grot... pretty much anything with an armor save of 5+, they're close to the same. One wounds a tad easier, true, but costs twice as much and has a chance to fry the attacker instead of the defender.

AGainst vehicles, of course, the plasma's a far better choice, and against monstrous critters, but, there are days when two marines with bolters are just better than one with a plasma gun.

SOmetimes, you just need more dakka.

Wakshaani wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
1 plazma shot is so much more valuable than 1 bolter shot that it's hard to discribe.

Often, but not always. Against an IG trooper, a Hormagaunt, a Termagant, an Ork boy a Grot... pretty much anything with an armor save of 5+, they're close to the same. One wounds a tad easier, true, but costs twice as much and has a chance to fry the attacker instead of the defender.

AGainst vehicles, of course, the plasma's a far better choice, and against monstrous critters, but, there are days when two marines with bolters are just better than one with a plasma gun.

SOmetimes, you just need more dakka.

Agreed, I had FRFSRF Vet Squads kill 3 nurgle bikers in one round, granted it was an extremely lucky shot and bad armor saves, but volume of fire can overcome any weapon profile, hence more Bolters are always batter

Wakshaani wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
1 plazma shot is so much more valuable than 1 bolter shot that it's hard to discribe.

Often, but not always. Against an IG trooper, a Hormagaunt, a Termagant, an Ork boy a Grot... pretty much anything with an armor save of 5+, they're close to the same. One wounds a tad easier, true, but costs twice as much and has a chance to fry the attacker instead of the defender.

So yes, overall the plasma is more valuable, since it is more effective against a wider variety of targets.

Something's value isn't lowered just because it has an exception, especially when that exception is only good against one thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Agreed, I had FRFSRF Vet Squads kill 3 nurgle bikers in one round, granted it was an extremely lucky shot and bad armor saves, but volume of fire can overcome any weapon profile, hence more Bolters are always batter

More bolters aren't always better though.

It's actually pretty rare that you'd want another bolter vs. wanting another special weapon.