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Plazma and melta allows you to threat vehicles, high-toughness and good-armor targets where bolters will be an auto-loose. Marines are allready oki vs regular troops. Besides, if you take a cheapo flamer, it's gona be much better vs squishy targets than a regular bolter.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
1 plazma shot is so much more valuable than 1 bolter shot that it's hard to discribe.

Often, but not always. Against an IG trooper, a Hormagaunt, a Termagant, an Ork boy a Grot... pretty much anything with an armor save of 5+, they're close to the same. One wounds a tad easier, true, but costs twice as much and has a chance to fry the attacker instead of the defender.

So yes, overall the plasma is more valuable, since it is more effective against a wider variety of targets.

Something's value isn't lowered just because it has an exception, especially when that exception is only good against one thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Agreed, I had FRFSRF Vet Squads kill 3 nurgle bikers in one round, granted it was an extremely lucky shot and bad armor saves, but volume of fire can overcome any weapon profile, hence more Bolters are always batter

More bolters aren't always better though.

It's actually pretty rare that you'd want another bolter vs. wanting another special weapon.

Im not discounting taking a special weapon, not at all, im just saying don't underestimate the power of a bolter volley

Bolters do a better job than they are given credit for when it comes to simply putting wounds on targets, so just get them into Rapid Fire range and let the enemy have it. I've actually been having a lot of success lately with focusing on just letting my Tactical Marines shoot their Bolters at reasonable enemy targets and forcing the foe to make saves.

That said, I do love to toss a Plasma Gun in with my Bolter squad. It really adds a bit of punch to a good Bolter volley.

I'd say go ahead and run your squads with nothing but Bolters and let yourself be pleasantly surprised by how much damage they can actually cause.

 Nevelon wrote:
The Codex dictates that all tactical squads are to be deployed at a full 10 men, armed with both a special and a heavy weapon. Now I realize that not all marines follow the codex as strictly as they should, and respect the victories my battle-brothers can achieve with their divergent tactics. But I’m an Ultramarine, and I’ve been fielding my squads they proper way since the RT era. I’m not changing my ways now.

Its worthwhile deploying a full ten man squad, because then you get combat squads, it can really help. Sgt and special weapon in one half to attack with, heavy in the other half to kill tanks with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 UltraTacSgt wrote:

Bolters do a better job than they are given credit for when it comes to simply putting wounds on targets, so just get them into Rapid Fire range and let the enemy have it. I've actually been having a lot of success lately with focusing on just letting my Tactical Marines shoot their Bolters at reasonable enemy targets and forcing the foe to make saves.

If you want a squad for bolter fire keep a full ten man squad, toss in a flamer and a heavy bolter, good synergy all round.

Ayup, with combat squads, you have the option of breaking them into a 5-man asault team, with Sarge having a CCW and a flamer, and a support fire team, with the heavy bolter. Stick 'em in a Rhino, drop the support team about 6" out into cover, then drive the rest of the way for the assault on-point, or take a Razorback, add a character to the assault team, and let'er rip.

You can also go with the full ten-man, drop 'em into cover near a point, and simply say, "Come have a go if you think you're hard enough!" and start dropping dakka on opposing troops while enjoying a line of T4, SV 3+, cover save 4/5++ guys that can rapid fire, spray flame, and fend off charges until the cows come home.

Never count out the humble tactical Marine with a bolter; he's gonna stick around for a while.

It's worth noting that against MEQ, a plasma gun is exactly 5 times as effective as a bolter in terms of delivering unsaved wounds. Against 4+ saves, it is only about 3 times as effective. Against 5+, it's less than twice as effective as a bolter (you would be better off spending those points on another marine).

I play salamanders, so I have a skewed perspective on how to equip tactical squads (MM+flamer+combigrav). But if I were playing another chapter tactic, I would probably just go with blobs of 10 marines with a plasma gun. Tactical squads are good for camping objectives and shooting other troops choices, no sense in complicating their role with tank hunting equipment.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
It's worth noting that against MEQ, a plasma gun is exactly 5 times as effective as a bolter in terms of delivering unsaved wounds. Against 4+ saves, it is only about 3 times as effective. Against 5+, it's less than twice as effective as a bolter (you would be better off spending those points on another marine).

I play salamanders, so I have a skewed perspective on how to equip tactical squads (MM+flamer+combigrav). But if I were playing another chapter tactic, I would probably just go with blobs of 10 marines with a plasma gun. Tactical squads are good for camping objectives and shooting other troops choices, no sense in complicating their role with tank hunting equipment.

If you just can't leave home without a dedicated anti tank upgrade, 5 point melta bombs are cheap insurance.

 minigun762 wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
It's worth noting that against MEQ, a plasma gun is exactly 5 times as effective as a bolter in terms of delivering unsaved wounds. Against 4+ saves, it is only about 3 times as effective. Against 5+, it's less than twice as effective as a bolter (you would be better off spending those points on another marine).

I play salamanders, so I have a skewed perspective on how to equip tactical squads (MM+flamer+combigrav). But if I were playing another chapter tactic, I would probably just go with blobs of 10 marines with a plasma gun. Tactical squads are good for camping objectives and shooting other troops choices, no sense in complicating their role with tank hunting equipment.

If you just can't leave home without a dedicated anti tank upgrade, 5 point melta bombs are cheap insurance.

Even that is not totally necessary, with the advent of easier to hit vehicles in CC and the rework of Krak grenades i have lost more Leman Russes and other supposedly hard to kill vehicles to roving marines with their damned grenades than anything else combined! Now i pretty much have to bubble wrap my vehicles at all times to prevent this. Melta bombs makes this even more inevitable, but I think they are a bit unnecessay unless you foresee Land Raiders in your games

I think in general the only heavy that is worthwhile is either the missile launcher or the heavy bolter.

I prefer the heavy bolter out of the two.

Missile launcher you can fire frag, along with the combat squads bolters it lets you put out 2-3 hits instead of 1 from a bolter at max range, of course in rapid fire range you might as well have a bolter, and it gives you the option to fire at a tank or something high toughness but of course the shots of the bolters at that point might well be wasted.

Heavy bolter I like because it basically keeps the squad firing at infantry or trying to glance av 10 light vehicles, you can also move and fire 3 times at bs1 which is better than not firing, or firing just 1 shot at bs 1, which will usually net you a hit at least.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
It's worth noting that against MEQ, a plasma gun is exactly 5 times as effective as a bolter in terms of delivering unsaved wounds. Against 4+ saves, it is only about 3 times as effective. Against 5+, it's less than twice as effective as a bolter (you would be better off spending those points on another marine).

I play salamanders, so I have a skewed perspective on how to equip tactical squads (MM+flamer+combigrav). But if I were playing another chapter tactic, I would probably just go with blobs of 10 marines with a plasma gun. Tactical squads are good for camping objectives and shooting other troops choices, no sense in complicating their role with tank hunting equipment.

If you just can't leave home without a dedicated anti tank upgrade, 5 point melta bombs are cheap insurance.

Even that is not totally necessary, with the advent of easier to hit vehicles in CC and the rework of Krak grenades i have lost more Leman Russes and other supposedly hard to kill vehicles to roving marines with their damned grenades than anything else combined! Now i pretty much have to bubble wrap my vehicles at all times to prevent this. Melta bombs makes this even more inevitable, but I think they are a bit unnecessay unless you foresee Land Raiders in your games

Yeah, standard-issue Krak grenades allows the Tac to wound monstrous critters on a 4+ in melee instead of a 6, and does just terrible, TERRIBLE things to any vehicle which gets near. Kinda helpless against an AV 12+ tank sitting 20" away and pounding them with big guns, true, but that's why you have the rest of your army.

So from what I can tell, it isn't a bad idea to just use bolt guns, but having a plasma rifle works well as a just in case measure for MEQ or TEQ.

I typically play against Chaos and Guard, so having that extra plasma punch may be a handy thing for the marines. I may have to buy a combat squad box so I have some sock marines to fill in plasma guys for when I fight guard.

You guys seem a little split on the heavy weapons. Seeing how I plan to use the Imperial Fists' Chapter Tactics, wouldn't it be a better idea to allocate those to devastators to take advantage of the chapter tactic further?

My initial plan was to have at least two five man teams and mount them in lascanon razorbacks. That way I have both anti-tank and anti infantry capabilities. Knowing this, are plasma guns still a good idea on these combat squads?

For that why not give the tac squad a heavy bolter? devs don't want them so won't miss out on their tactics and gives something more interesting for the regular guys to do.

Biggest reason for Melta Bombs is AV13 walkers. Since nobody takes power fists anymore, you need some way to hurt them.

 minigun762 wrote:
Biggest reason for Melta Bombs is AV13 walkers. Since nobody takes power fists anymore, you need some way to hurt them.

Use "Our Weapons are Useless!", fall back, shoot it. If he catches you ATSKNF saves you anyway.

 minigun762 wrote:
Biggest reason for Melta Bombs is AV13 walkers. Since nobody takes power fists anymore, you need some way to hurt them.

Why are people not bringing power fists to games? I planned to place them on many units.

 Brotherjanus wrote:
For that why not give the tac squad a heavy bolter? devs don't want them so won't miss out on their tactics and gives something more interesting for the regular guys to do.

Exactly my thinking, besides tank hunters on heavy bolters would only be handy with dark eldar or any other light vehicles.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Biggest reason for Melta Bombs is AV13 walkers. Since nobody takes power fists anymore, you need some way to hurt them.

Use "Our Weapons are Useless!", fall back, shoot it. If he catches you ATSKNF saves you anyway.

I completely overlooked that rule, I can see this being very helpful in future games.

Wakshaani wrote:
I'm a firm believer in Tactical Arms 1.5 (1.0 was flamer and missile launcher, which never worked right) ... Flamer and heavy bolter. This gives you concentrated dakka without sacrificing the heavy weapon or special, and you lose the confusion of an anti-armor weapon ... everyone knows to bolter the face off of enemy infantry and lets the heavy units deal with tanks.

Cheap and effective, you can't go wrong.

I agree on this one, and Bolter drill helps a fair bit...but I play Nids...this is a Bad combo...don't do this at all!

Guy I play with persists on equipping his squads with a lascannon and a melta gun (and no Rhino), essentially spending 170 points on a single lascannon shot at BS4 every turn. It's kind of silly.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Guy I play with persists on equipping his squads with a lascannon and a melta gun (and no Rhino), essentially spending 170 points on a single lascannon shot at BS4 every turn. It's kind of silly.

Agreed.
Having one long range and one short range AT weapon doesn't not make your squad an AT counter.

 R3YNO wrote:

Why are people not bringing power fists to games? I planned to place them on many units.

Cause it's easy to snipe out or challenge out your powerfist sarge.

 koooaei wrote:

 R3YNO wrote:

Why are people not bringing power fists to games? I planned to place them on many units.

Cause it's easy to snipe out or challenge out your powerfist sarge.

Plus for the same price you can get a power sword to strike at initiative AND melta bombs, and you will always come out on top. I will argue, however, that power fists LOOK AWESOME!

 minigun762 wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Guy I play with persists on equipping his squads with a lascannon and a melta gun (and no Rhino), essentially spending 170 points on a single lascannon shot at BS4 every turn. It's kind of silly.

Agreed.
Having one long range and one short range AT weapon doesn't not make your squad an AT counter.

I'm not really sure on what you mean, because you said "doesn't not". Are you saying that this setup is good or bad? I was pointing out that it's bad! They just sit in their deployment and fire off one lascannon shot a turn until the game's over or I bother to deal with them. It's a huge waste of points. Predators are hardly a good unit, but still a far more points-efficient way of getting lascannons on the board. Devastators are the most points-efficient unit behind Jokaero for number of lascannons, but he doesn't use Devastators.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Guy I play with persists on equipping his squads with a lascannon and a melta gun (and no Rhino), essentially spending 170 points on a single lascannon shot at BS4 every turn. It's kind of silly.

Agreed.
Having one long range and one short range AT weapon doesn't not make your squad an AT counter.

I'm not really sure on what you mean, because you said "doesn't not". Are you saying that this setup is good or bad? I was pointing out that it's bad! They just sit in their deployment and fire off one lascannon shot a turn until the game's over or I bother to deal with them. It's a huge waste of points. Predators are hardly a good unit, but still a far more points-efficient way of getting lascannons on the board. Devastators are the most points-efficient unit behind Jokaero for number of lascannons, but he doesn't use Devastators.

My bad grammar is to blame.
I agree with your assessment, it's not a build I would use.

Now that they're allowed to take one for under strength squads, it is pretty nice to have like a six man razorback squad with a flamer and sgt with combi-flamer.

Tacticals have become so strange. I know that SMs are the heroes of the game and they need/want to sell a ton of them, but my marine forces on the table are around the same number as my standard ork lists. According to background, there should be a handful of really powerful marines on the table and they should actually be bigger than guardsmen.

But yeah, I find heavies difficult. They really don't do much in Tacticals except slow down the unit. Devs are now cost effective and can mass fire heavies.

I wish Tacticals could take 2 specials or heavies were effective somehow. I guess I have decent luck with plasma/plasma cannon combo and not move the squad, but missile launchers flat out suck.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Space Marines in general are a bunch of fools and idiots. It's no surprise that their war manual is mega crap.

Much like the pirate code its merely a set of guidelines. Even the Ultramarines will deviate from it to get the job done on occasion, they just don't like to talk about then go home and then whip themselves as penance for thinking outside of the box.

That being said I find myself running a few ten man + melta gun or plasma gun squad in a rhino, while i will run something like a 10 man squad with a flamer/melta+ PC in a razorback and leaving the plasma cannon in the backfield. I also play with Calgar often so more boots on the ground is helpful to me.

Noooope. It was written to function as such but in the blind doctrinal 41st Millenium it is meant to be followed to the letter by Codex adherent Chapters. In Warriors of Ultramar, Captain Ventris goes outside of the codex and actually wins the war but is subsequently exiled from the Chapter.

You could of course play a Chapter that doesn't really stick to the rules though.

 Gorgrimm wrote:


I wish Tacticals could take 2 specials or heavies were effective somehow. I guess I have decent luck with plasma/plasma cannon combo and not move the squad, but missile launchers flat out suck.

I've nevee fully understood why the Plas/Plas squad never caught on in the same way as Las/Plas..

A plasma cannon has a lot more in common with bolter's preferred targets compared to a lascannon.

Ugh, power fists and power weapons, guys? Really?

Seriously, don't ever take them on Tactical Sergeants.

Noone is frightened by garbage upgrades like plasma/Grav pistols and special melee weapons. They won't tip any combats 90% of the time they're supporting an action your Tacticals shouldn't even be trying to do, period, they're expensive and wasteful when there are far better upgrades for the same cost, and they reduce redundancy.

4 power fists buys you a combat squad of Tacticals and a heavy weapon, or a LSS Scout Squad almost, or some Sniper Scouts. You tell me if you still want those worthless fists.

 minigun762 wrote:
I've nevee fully understood why the Plas/Plas squad never caught on in the same way as Las/Plas..

A plasma cannon has a lot more in common with bolter's preferred targets compared to a lascannon.

Are you familiar with the "Army Don't Roll A 1" theory?

Basically, a combi-plasma, plasma gun, and plasma cannon in the same squad. Morale of the story is that you have way too many chances to lose something valuable in the squad.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
I've nevee fully understood why the Plas/Plas squad never caught on in the same way as Las/Plas..

A plasma cannon has a lot more in common with bolter's preferred targets compared to a lascannon.

Are you familiar with the "Army Don't Roll A 1" theory?

Basically, a combi-plasma, plasma gun, and plasma cannon in the same squad. Morale of the story is that you have way too many chances to lose something valuable in the squad.

Understandable but the actual risk is small. 5.5% chance to roll a one and fail a 3+.considering the extra damage potential of a plasma cannon compared to a lascannon and I think it's worth it.

Then again if you are only worried about busting heavy tanks at range, you can leave the plasma gun at home and only take the lascannon.

 minigun762 wrote:

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
I've nevee fully understood why the Plas/Plas squad never caught on in the same way as Las/Plas..

A plasma cannon has a lot more in common with bolter's preferred targets compared to a lascannon.

Are you familiar with the "Army Don't Roll A 1" theory?

Basically, a combi-plasma, plasma gun, and plasma cannon in the same squad. Morale of the story is that you have way too many chances to lose something valuable in the squad.

Understandable but the actual risk is small. 5.5% chance to roll a one and fail a 3+.considering the extra damage potential of a plasma cannon compared to a lascannon and I think it's worth it.

Then again if you are only worried about busting heavy tanks at range, you can leave the plasma gun at home and only take the lascannon.

You can also look at it as a loss of firepower. If you consider that each one is the loss of what would be a high powered shot, it also tends to equate out that other squads will do far more damage because of that temporary loss of firepower, regardless if they manage to live through it.

Eh, it depends on how you play. I play very casually and in depth with the background of my chapter or what I think marines would be kitted out. I usually take power fists on my sgts since my chapter is descended from IF, so fists. Plus I have yet to go to 6th, we mostly play a cross of 3rd and 5th. Heavy into the stories of the game. I've also turned more into a collector than player, so I tend to take what I think a certain squad should have.

And yes, it usually doesn't work well.

That being said, I also go off what I've experienced. Plasmas have been good to me. Back in the day everything was missile launcher/flamer, or was in my circles. Heck, I was downright ruined my a marine player with dev missile squads and missile launchers. I've never had any luck with them. They don't seem to do enough frag damage and the krak's never penetrate. Just probably me though.

Haven't used grav weapons yet.

Multi-meltas and meltas are another one I can't seem to get right. By the time they are in good range, I miss and they die in CC.

Heavy bolters are another one I don't see a lot of in other forces, but they work for me pretty well. I like them, now with IF tactics, they are probably going to be even better.

Lascannons have been expensive, but now they are not so bad, but I have a lascannon dev squad if I want to take them.

I don't know, probably not the best for talking tactics, the way I play nowadays, but that's my two cents;.