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Jefffar wrote:
I wouldn't say the Rune Priest is the same as a tech marine. He's not an Independant character, he uses up an elite slot, and the options for models in his unit include Fenresian Wolves in addition to the Servitors. Those aren't just wargear and chapter tactics changes.

A good point. But to be honest, the. IC rule is the only change since the rest are only wargear and FOC charges. All of these combined might, however make it unique.

I would like to ask you something:
How different are Skyclaws from Assault Marines?
I don't remember the wargear options, but in the end they are ASM with -1 WS, -1 BS and counter-attack (or whatever it's called).
Assuming that counter-attack is their Chapter Tactics, could they be rolled into C:SM by changing their stats? Same rules as ASM but named Skyclaws.

I honestly have no opinion, I'm just intrested in hearing yours.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 soomemafia wrote:
And Space Wolves are just regular Space Marines after all, aren't they? Long Fangs are completely similar to Devastators, at least when you change their rules!

No Space Wolves are not just Grey Space Marines.
Grey Hunters are NOT Tactical Marines. They are Equiped completly difrent and are used difrently. Thay are real good at the Mid-Ranged [out to 24"] and in the Counter Assualt Role.

The same with Long Fangs. While outwordly simialr to Devistators, they are used as a Jack of Trades type of Role. Devistators Generaly are 4 of the same making them Uni-Taskers and are hard pressed pressed to do the job they were not set up, Anit-Vehicle, Anti-Infantry or Anti-Aircraft.
Long Fangs is set up correctly are Multi-Taskers being able to take Weapons for both Anti-Vehicle and Anti -Infanftry and can do both at the same time. Their Split Fire is what allows them to do both. That is why they are better, becouse they can do both jobs at the same time.
Now if Devistatores could reliably Split Fire they would be able to Multi-Task without relying Combat Squading.

Yeah, I know and that makes them awesome! I was just being sarcastic here

 soomemafia wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
I wouldn't say the Rune Priest is the same as a tech marine. He's not an Independant character, he uses up an elite slot, and the options for models in his unit include Fenresian Wolves in addition to the Servitors. Those aren't just wargear and chapter tactics changes.

A good point. But to be honest, the. IC rule is the only change since the rest are only wargear and FOC charges. All of these combined might, however make it unique.

I would like to ask you something:
How different are Skyclaws from Assault Marines?
I don't remember the wargear options, but in the end they are ASM with -1 WS, -1 BS and counter-attack (or whatever it's called).
Assuming that counter-attack is their Chapter Tactics, could they be rolled into C:SM by changing their stats? Same rules as ASM but named Skyclaws.

I honestly have no opinion, I'm just intrested in hearing yours.

We here are the basics, some of which has been noted.
>BS-1
>WS-1
>1 Special Melee Weapon no mater what the Pack Size
>1 Special Ranged Weapon no mater what the Pack Size
>1 Mark of the Wolfen
>No Sargent
>Berserk Charge +2 Attacks on the Assualt]
>Headstrong [Must Assualt if within 6" without firing weapons unless a IC has been added to the Squad making the choice of a Melta-Gun or Flamer worthless]

Alright, I clearly left out a lot of stuff (my bad).
With headstrong and berserk charge they can hardly be compared to Assault Marines.
Wargear options might have been avoided, tough.

Wolf priest= chaplain. same.

wolf priest is different from the chaplain.

Yes they both have the same wargear, 4++ save, crozius.

The chaplain gives Hatred, only good in a close combat.

The wolf priest gives preferred enemy (one unit choice, like infantry or monstrous creatures), which is good in close combat AND shooting.

Two totally different roles for them.

Alot of people are saying that space wolves should be rolled into the SM codex.

How exactly would you do it? Do you own a space wolf codex to give us a unit by unit breakdown of how it would be done? without turning them into grey space marines like you all want.

Sorry, my apologies, I mean the Iron Priest rather than the Rune Priest.

Additionally the reference to Fenresian Wolves should be Cyber Wolves, and unlike other characters who take them as wargear, they are taken along as part of the unit (up to 4 IIRC) with the Iron Priest and the Servitors. so a drastically different unit composition.

 soomemafia wrote:

 kronk wrote:
SW:
Wolf Guard Battle Leader = captain with -1 w and -1 Ld. different.

LOL! "We just added Space Wolves to the C: SM. Your WG Battle Leaders are now captains and just gained +1 W and +1 LD. Congrats!"

SW
Wolf scouts: FOC change and stat change. different.

Then change them back! Simple.

BA:
Reclusiarch: chaplain with several stat changes. different.
Honour guard: required sanguinary novitiate. different

No reason for them to even be different. Change Reclusiarch to match Chaplain and Honor Guard to match either Honor Guard or Command Squad in the C: SM

Most of your points are ticky-tack, man. Was this a trolling thread? Was there a need to make a new one when there are 2 threads covering this?

Ah! We have found a true genius indeed!!
If there's an unique unit, just delete it and you're good to go!

Seriously "Then change them back! Simpe." Seriously!?

Yes. Seriously. I'm not talking about deleting a unique flier or a skimmer that can take ordinance weapons.

Take a good long look at my examples. What is a Reclusiarch? A chaplain? Yes? Why does it need it's own entry? Same for the Honor Guard, same for the Wolf Scouts, same for the WG Battle Leader.

The burden is on you to defend why they should be separate. Also, thank you for the compliment. I am not just a true genius, but I'm also incredible handsome and humble!

No reason to be different, totally.
Except, you know, fluff, style, gameplay, and the fact that they are different units.
But besides that, totally no reason to be different.

Waaaghpower wrote:
No reason to be different, totally.
Except, you know, fluff, style, gameplay, and the fact that they are different units.
But besides that, totally no reason to be different.

Thanks for agreeing with me. Acceptance is the first of many steps!

They also have years of extra stuff being intentionally made different, so they could justify keeping separate, full codexes.

BA used to be held up as an example of a codex compliant chapter…

Every edition of the codex is going to change stuff. You shrug and move on. This happens regardless of if you are going to be wrapped up into another book or not. Would bumping a wolf guard battle leader up to captain stats critically alter the fluff/playstyle of SW? Nope. Things like scout-statted assault marines and veteran wolf scouts do though.

Here is how I would roll BA and SW into SM:
- Blood Angel Chapter Tactics are Descend of the Angels and Black Rage
- Space Wolves Chapter Tactics are Counter-Attack + Acute Senses and 4 HQ selections
- Chapter Master/Captain with Jump Packs unlocks assault Squads as Troops
- Reclusiarch is available for everyone
- Honor Guards and Command Squads may take Jump Packs
- Dreadnoughts have the option to be double-ccw or to take a frag cannon.
- Librarian Dreads are available for everyone (Iron Hands would like this too)
- Sanguinary Priest as BA CT-locked Elites selection
- Lone Wolf as SW CT-locked Elites selection
- Tactical Squads gain the option to take double special weapons and to take a ccw/replace boltgun with ccw
- Any SM Scout squad can be upgraded to have +1 BS and +1 WS, and they can take various special weapons too (Raven Guard would like this too)
- Black Company as BA CT-locked Troops selection, BC Dreadnought is rolled into BC Squad to from a "mixed" infantry/vehicle unit ala Ravenwing Attack Squad
- Fenrisian Wolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry is rolled into a single SW CT-locked unit. Works similarly to Inquisitorial Warbands as you build a unit of, say, 1-10 Fenrisian Wolves and/or Thunderwolf Cavalry
- Some random Devastator wargear that confers Split Fire
- Baal Predator is rolled into the normal Predator through weapon options
- All SM vehicles can take Maximus Engines. It changes the vehicle's type to Fast (and White Scar players rejoice)

And that's all, the essential stuff is covered. If you want Wolf Guard then take Sternguard/vanguard Vets, Terminators and upgrade your Sergeants to Veteran Sergeants. if you want Sanguinary Guard then take Honor Guard with JPs. If you want Whateverclaws then take Tacs/Assaults/Bikes and enjoy your WS4/BS4.

It's an interesting academic discussion. But if GW believes they'll make more money keeping the codecies separate, then they will.

<--- Honestly doesn't care if SW and BA keep their own codex or gets lumped in with the C: SM.

 kronk wrote:

 soomemafia wrote:

 kronk wrote:
SW:
Wolf Guard Battle Leader = captain with -1 w and -1 Ld. different.

LOL! "We just added Space Wolves to the C: SM. Your WG Battle Leaders are now captains and just gained +1 W and +1 LD. Congrats!"

SW
Wolf scouts: FOC change and stat change. different.

Then change them back! Simple.

BA:
Reclusiarch: chaplain with several stat changes. different.
Honour guard: required sanguinary novitiate. different

No reason for them to even be different. Change Reclusiarch to match Chaplain and Honor Guard to match either Honor Guard or Command Squad in the C: SM

Most of your points are ticky-tack, man. Was this a trolling thread? Was there a need to make a new one when there are 2 threads covering this?

Ah! We have found a true genius indeed!!
If there's an unique unit, just delete it and you're good to go!

Seriously "Then change them back! Simpe." Seriously!?

Yes. Seriously. I'm not talking about deleting a unique flier or a skimmer that can take ordinance weapons.

Take a good long look at my examples. What is a Reclusiarch? A chaplain? Yes? Why does it need it's own entry? Same for the Honor Guard, same for the Wolf Scouts, same for the WG Battle Leader.

The burden is on you to defend why they should be separate. Also, thank you for the compliment. I am not just a true genius, but I'm also incredible handsome and humble!

Actually the burden is on the proposer of a theory. The BA and SW codexes are currently separate codexes. You are proposing they are rolled into c:sm. You have made the proposal. The burden is on you.

Poly Ranger wrote:

Actually the burden is on the proposer of a theory. The BA and SW codexes are currently separate codexes. You are proposing they are rolled into c:sm. You have made the proposal. The burden is on you.

Nope! The proposer of the theory is the OP of this thread. Anyone that sides with him has to prove their theory.

I've already disproved it.

<---- Has also shown that he doesn't care either way. I hope you keep your codex, but wouldn't be surprised if you lost it.

Have fun!

Poly Ranger wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 soomemafia wrote:

 kronk wrote:
SW:
Wolf Guard Battle Leader = captain with -1 w and -1 Ld. different.

LOL! "We just added Space Wolves to the C: SM. Your WG Battle Leaders are now captains and just gained +1 W and +1 LD. Congrats!"

SW
Wolf scouts: FOC change and stat change. different.

Then change them back! Simple.

BA:
Reclusiarch: chaplain with several stat changes. different.
Honour guard: required sanguinary novitiate. different

No reason for them to even be different. Change Reclusiarch to match Chaplain and Honor Guard to match either Honor Guard or Command Squad in the C: SM

Most of your points are ticky-tack, man. Was this a trolling thread? Was there a need to make a new one when there are 2 threads covering this?

Ah! We have found a true genius indeed!!
If there's an unique unit, just delete it and you're good to go!

Seriously "Then change them back! Simpe." Seriously!?

Yes. Seriously. I'm not talking about deleting a unique flier or a skimmer that can take ordinance weapons.

Take a good long look at my examples. What is a Reclusiarch? A chaplain? Yes? Why does it need it's own entry? Same for the Honor Guard, same for the Wolf Scouts, same for the WG Battle Leader.

The burden is on you to defend why they should be separate. Also, thank you for the compliment. I am not just a true genius, but I'm also incredible handsome and humble!

Actually the burden is on the proposer of a theory. The BA and SW codexes are currently separate codexes. You are proposing they are rolled into c:sm. You have made the proposal. The burden is on you.

This is correct. The status quo is defense in itself. Change to the status quo requires redirection of energy. Otherwise the "object in motion" will stay in motion.

It also seems I done goofed on some of the SW entries. I'll go back to edit the results with the chaplain and tech marine in mind. Good catch to those who brought them up.

The reason that the Angels (NOT VAMPIRES LEARN EARLY HEBREW MYTH!!) and Wolves get their own codex is because they have their own set of special rules. Also they get unique units that can only be found in their armies such as the Baal Preds and the Wollf Riders... To put this into the main SM codex would not only make that book as thick as the BRB, but it would also imply that bolth armies follow the Codex... Angels do to some extent, but they prefer Assault Marines vs Tac marines and are a more strike and go force. The Wolves ignore the codex all together.

Waaaghpower wrote:
No reason to be different, totally.
Except, you know, fluff, style, gameplay, and the fact that they are different units.
But besides that, totally no reason to be different.

Just because it's said they are different units doesn't mean they are. Grey Hunters are demonstrably similar enough to Tactical marines as to not warrant their own unique entry. But Kronk has the right of things. You don't need a different entry for every different name for the same unit.

 kronk wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

Actually the burden is on the proposer of a theory. The BA and SW codexes are currently separate codexes. You are proposing they are rolled into c:sm. You have made the proposal. The burden is on you.

Nope! The proposer of the theory is the OP of this thread. Anyone that sides with him has to prove their theory.

I've already disproved it.

<---- Has also shown that he doesn't care either way. I hope you keep your codex, but wouldn't be surprised if you lost it.

Have fun!

I didn't actually propose anything sir. I declared what would be enough to set a unit apart for me personally, and did research according to that. All it is is a resource, a chart, or a gathering of information in one location.

As has been said, the "what would set a unit apart" ground rules are opinions, and can easily be changed to suit the next researcher's opinion on "what is enough to set a unit apart."

He was more talking about the status quo that the codices DO currently exist, and doing anything other than keeping them as such is diverting the status quo. And the status quo tends to follow Newton in a metaphorical way. It stays the same unless someone expends enough energy to change it.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
No reason to be different, totally.
Except, you know, fluff, style, gameplay, and the fact that they are different units.
But besides that, totally no reason to be different.

Just because it's said they are different units doesn't mean they are. Grey Hunters are demonstrably similar enough to Tactical marines as to not warrant their own unique entry. But Kronk has the right of things. You don't need a different entry for every different name for the same unit.

By that theory Necron Immortals are standard SM tac marines.
-lower initiative
-different weapon
-ld10 and rp in place of atsknf

The rest is all the same.
Death co have more differences with assault marines and baal preds have more differences with preds than immortals have with tac marines...

Btw I realise what I am saying is ridiculous... that's the point.

I cannot speak for the Space Wolves because I don't own the army or the codex, but I do play BA. It seems to me that they are in fact different enough from C:SM to warrant having their own codex.

I also have said before and I will say again here that I think fluff has a big thing to do with why SW and BA get their own codex. First off, according to the fluff written in the codex for BA, they are experiencing a dire time when Dante must take tithes of initiates in order to replenish the BA ranks. I feel that this is why BA are so overpriced right now per unit. Fluff wise, it makes sense. Also, due to the fact that every Blood Angel has the potential to break and fall to the Red Thirst or even worse, the Black Rage, it means that they have to deviate from the Codex Astartes in ways that other chapters do not have to do.
I don't know about the Space Wolves, but I feel like I've read somewhere that they are pretty much like @#$^#%^^@#$^#%^*#$$%!%^& Codex Astartes, we serve the Emprah OUR way lol!

While yes, many of these units are different than their C:SM counterparts, a great number are just wargear/USR swaps and little more, and many of the current differences won't survive and edition change as they are now. Death Company for example have been notably different in each BA book from their previous incarnation.

The number of truly unique units (i.e. those that aren't just weapon/wargear/USR swaps) is small.

Pretty much, Murdius. Their gene-seed doesn't allow for seeding chapters are their recruits are all more viscious, for starters. They have Veterans do the scouting because the recruits would charge in headlong and give away their position. They also have about twice the number of Marines compared to a normal chapter, and they draw all their recruits from one particularly viscious planet. (An advantage of which, most of the population are already badasses in their own right, so they're a more fertile population to recruit from and come already tough and already combat experienced.)

 Vaktathi wrote:
While yes, many of these units are different than their C:SM counterparts, a great number are just wargear/USR swaps and little more, and many of the current differences won't survive and edition change as they are now. Death Company for example have been notably different in each BA book from their previous incarnation.

The number of truly unique units (i.e. those that aren't just weapon/wargear/USR swaps) is small.

Well, by my quick count, the amount of Space wolf units that are similar enough that I consider them to be a "marine with a wolf pelt disguise" is only 15, as compared to the 21 units I consider unique. And part of that was counting dreads, venerable dreads, rhinos, razorbacks, drop pods, and each of the land raider variants as completely separate units. So heavily relying on vehicles to pad that number of similar units. I believe only 7 were infantry models of some type.

So, at least in my opinion, even considering the copy/paste vehicles, the wolves have more unique than they have borrowed.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Pretty much, Murdius. Their gene-seed doesn't allow for seeding chapters are their recruits are all more viscious, for starters. They have Veterans do the scouting because the recruits would charge in headlong and give away their position. They also have about twice the number of Marines compared to a normal chapter, and they draw all their recruits from one particularly viscious planet. (An advantage of which, most of the population are already badasses in their own right, so they're a more fertile population to recruit from and come already tough and already combat experienced.)

The scout bit might be old fluff. The current book fluff has neophytes on scouting duty just like other codices. They start to differ when they go straight to assault squad instead of devastators though.

niv-mizzet wrote:


Well, by my quick count, the amount of Space wolf units that are similar enough that I consider them to be a "marine with a wolf pelt disguise" is only 15, as compared to the 21 units I consider unique. And part of that was counting dreads, venerable dreads, rhinos, razorbacks, drop pods, and each of the land raider variants as completely separate units. So heavily relying on vehicles to pad that number of similar units. I believe only 7 were infantry models of some type.

So, at least in my opinion, even considering the copy/paste vehicles, the wolves have more unique than they have borrowed.

I'd consider many of those to not be truly unique. GH's are different, but ultimately still tactical equivalents, you can get as much difference between GH's and Tac's as you can with just the basic CSM entry alone. Furioso's are a bit different, but ultimately aren't super distinct from Ironclads, they're more different from their 4E incarnation than they are from Ironclads.

I said it in the SW specific thread, but I would really love to see a mock-up of the hypothetical "marines united" codex. Or at least a mock-up of some of the more complicated pages, such as assault marines, that are, by the admission of several posters, intended to be used as a base unit while using upgrades to emulate death company, or downgrades to emulate skyclaws, and giving both armies, including the non-DC assault squad from BA, their appropriate wargear options and rules.

I'm having a hard time picturing it being anything comprehensible to anyone but the hardiest veteran players, but perhaps seeing it might change my mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

I'd consider many of those to not be truly unique. GH's are different, but ultimately still tactical equivalents, you can get as much difference between GH's and Tac's as you can with just the basic CSM entry alone. Furioso's are a bit different, but ultimately aren't super distinct from Ironclads, they're more different from their 4E incarnation than they are from Ironclads.

Would you mind doing a quick count through say... the wolves codex using your own standards and let us know the numbers of what you find "copy/paste" material and things that need their own entry to reproduce? And please let me know what standards you ended up using. So far people have avoided giving me any set of ironed-out rules for their own opinion on what is enough to set a unit apart, and I'm not really sure why.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
No reason to be different, totally.
Except, you know, fluff, style, gameplay, and the fact that they are different units.
But besides that, totally no reason to be different.

Just because it's said they are different units doesn't mean they are. Grey Hunters are demonstrably similar enough to Tactical marines as to not warrant their own unique entry. But Kronk has the right of things. You don't need a different entry for every different name for the same unit.

By that theory Necron Immortals are standard SM tac marines.
-lower initiative
-different weapon
-ld10 and rp in place of atsknf

The rest is all the same.
Death co have more differences with assault marines and baal preds have more differences with preds than immortals have with tac marines...

Btw I realise what I am saying is ridiculous... that's the point.

Okay, here is my main issue with this argument. What do Grey Hunters and Tactical Squads have in common? Same standard weapon, same stats, same rules and generally the same wargear choices. What do Tactical Squads and immortals have in common? Level 4 stats and save. That's it.

I realize what you are trying to say. "Oh, you can't just say that Grey Hunters are just +1 Space Marines when all units are like that too!". The key here is how these units are played and their model range. Tac Squads and Grey Hunters are general infantry that can be tooled to do any job and be thrown in a multitude in transports to assist in this. In addition, they both are power armored boy scouts while Immortals are completely different. Necron Immortals, I believe, play a lot differently than Tac Squads do.

Then you must consider this. Grey Hunters, if they were simply replaced with the Tactical Squad, would be mostly the same unit. If you replaced Immortals with the Tactical Squad they would be vastly changed.

Personally, with the SW codex, not counting Characters, the units I'd say are "truly unique" are

Fenrisian Wolves
Thunderwolf Cavalry

these don't have direct equivalents or even anything close in C:SM.

Then we have "implementation unique" units. Stuff that is similar to other stuff or identical to older units, but don't have a truly parallel unit. I'd consider the following to fall under that

Wolf Guard Battle Leader
Lone Wolf

They're basically mini-HQ's, the stat's of old 4E HQ's and -1 wound for the most part, but they're not something other books have anymore (i.e. chaos used to have 2 wound Combat HQ's too, Chaos Lieutenants, until 2007).

So that's 4.

Everything else, barring Characters, in the SW codex, really is just stat, wargear, or special rule swaps. You could write a codex, and have an addendum of a couple pages with a note like the following

"If using Space Wolves Chapter Tactics, all units exchange USR X for Y, and the following units are changed as described

Wolf Scouts, as Scouts except +1WS, +1 BS, gain Super Outflank, are Elites, cost +Xpts for the squad.
[STATLINE entry]

Swiftclaws - as Space Marine Bike Squad, -1WS, -1BS, gains Berzerk Charges rule, no Sergeant.
[STATLINE entry]

Skyclaws, as Space Marine Assault Squad, -1WS, -1BS, gains Berzerk Charges rule, no Sergeant.
[STATLINE entry]"

 AtoMaki wrote:
Here is how I would roll BA and SW into SM:
- Blood Angel Chapter Tactics are Descend of the Angels and Black Rage
- Space Wolves Chapter Tactics are Counter-Attack + Acute Senses and 4 HQ selections
- Chapter Master/Captain with Jump Packs unlocks assault Squads as Troops
- Reclusiarch is available for everyone
- Honor Guards and Command Squads may take Jump Packs
- Dreadnoughts have the option to be double-ccw or to take a frag cannon.
- Librarian Dreads are available for everyone (Iron Hands would like this too)
- Sanguinary Priest as BA CT-locked Elites selection
- Lone Wolf as SW CT-locked Elites selection
- Tactical Squads gain the option to take double special weapons and to take a ccw/replace boltgun with ccw
- Any SM Scout squad can be upgraded to have +1 BS and +1 WS, and they can take various special weapons too (Raven Guard would like this too)
- Black Company as BA CT-locked Troops selection, BC Dreadnought is rolled into BC Squad to from a "mixed" infantry/vehicle unit ala Ravenwing Attack Squad
- Fenrisian Wolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry is rolled into a single SW CT-locked unit. Works similarly to Inquisitorial Warbands as you build a unit of, say, 1-10 Fenrisian Wolves and/or Thunderwolf Cavalry
- Some random Devastator wargear that confers Split Fire
- Baal Predator is rolled into the normal Predator through weapon options
- All SM vehicles can take Maximus Engines. It changes the vehicle's type to Fast (and White Scar players rejoice)

And that's all, the essential stuff is covered. If you want Wolf Guard then take Sternguard/vanguard Vets, Terminators and upgrade your Sergeants to Veteran Sergeants. if you want Sanguinary Guard then take Honor Guard with JPs. If you want Whateverclaws then take Tacs/Assaults/Bikes and enjoy your WS4/BS4.

So you want BA and SW rolled into the SM codex to make all SM stronger?

I think we are looking only at half the puzzle in this thread. We've asked how different are the BA and SW, but we haven't asked how different are the SM?

I think it would be informative to compare the SM codex to BA and then SW and see which units are in SM that are either not present or radically different in the BA and SW book.

Some examples, using Marines and Wolves

HQ

Honour Guard: Not used, Wolf Guard is closest
Command Squad: Not used, Wolf Guard is closest
Chapter Master: Not used, Wolf Lord is closest
Terminator Captain: Not used, Wolf Lord is closest
Captain: Wolf Lord, unlocks command squad plus moderate differences
Librarian: Rune Priest, unlocks command squad, plus moderate differences
Chaplain: Wolf Priest, unlocks command squad plus moderate differences
Master of the Forge: Not used
TechMarine: Iron Priest, radically different
Servitors: Not a seperate choice, part of Iron Priest.

Troops:
Tactical Squad: Grey Hunters closest, moderate differences
Scout Squad: Not used, closest are Wolf Scouts (Elite, different stats, different options, different special rules and different dedicated transport) and Blood Claws (different stats, different options, different special rules, different dedicated transport and radically different role)

Dedicated Transport:
Rhino: Same
Razorback: Same
Drop Pod: Same
Land Speeder Storm: Not Used

Elite:
Vanguard Vets: Not used, Wolf Guard is closest
Sternguard Vets: Not used, Wolf Guard is closest
Dreadnought: Dreadnought and Venerable Dreadnought, minor differences
Ironclad Dreadnought: Not used
Legion of the Damned: Not used
Tactical Terminators: Not used, Wolf Guard is closest
Assault Terminators: Not used, Wolf Guard is closest
Centurion Assault Squad: 6th Ed Addition , not to be counted

Fast Attack:
Assault Squad: Not used, Skyclaws are closest with different stats, different rules and different options
Land Speeder Squadron: Same
Storm Talon Gunship: 6th Ed, not counted
Bike Squad: Not used, closest is Wolf Guard (not very) or Swiftclaws (Stats, Rules and Options are different)
Attack Bikes: Not Used
Scout Bikes: Not used, closest is Swiftclaws (Stats, Rules and Options are different)

Heavy Support
Devastators Squad: Long Fangs, Different stats, different rules, different options
Centurion Devastators: 6th edition
Thunderfire Cannon: Not used
Predator: Same
Whirlwind: Same
Vindicator: Same
Hunter: 6th Ed
Stalker: 6th Ed
Land Raiders: Same
Storm Raven: 6th

So, ignoring the units added in 6th and the Black Templars units, I count 20 SM units that are either not used in SW or are radical different from their equivalents (including almost all of the HQ and Elite options. On the other hand there are 15 SM units I consider close enough to their SW counterparts. Of those 15, 11 are vehicles.

This is the big stumbling block to a straight unification. SM has several units that are not represented in SW or are radically different from the closest SW unit (plus that whole Combat Squads thing, but a Blanket rule can cover that).

That being said, a Codex Expansion which included Wolves Fluff, Wolves Characters, Wolves Rules/Wargear, a list of SM units the Wolves couldn't take, notes on changes to SM units they could take, and Wolf specific units could be done. There would be a reduction in the amount of space needed for the crunchy bits of the Wolf book as much would still reference Codex: Space Marines, which would give space for extra fluff.

But no, SW as SM with different Chapter Tactics and dudes that ride wolves is too big a change based on the above.

DOOMONYOU wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Spoiler:

Here is how I would roll BA and SW into SM:
- Blood Angel Chapter Tactics are Descend of the Angels and Black Rage
- Space Wolves Chapter Tactics are Counter-Attack + Acute Senses and 4 HQ selections
- Chapter Master/Captain with Jump Packs unlocks assault Squads as Troops
- Reclusiarch is available for everyone
- Honor Guards and Command Squads may take Jump Packs
- Dreadnoughts have the option to be double-ccw or to take a frag cannon.
- Librarian Dreads are available for everyone (Iron Hands would like this too)
- Sanguinary Priest as BA CT-locked Elites selection
- Lone Wolf as SW CT-locked Elites selection
- Tactical Squads gain the option to take double special weapons and to take a ccw/replace boltgun with ccw
- Any SM Scout squad can be upgraded to have +1 BS and +1 WS, and they can take various special weapons too (Raven Guard would like this too)
- Black Company as BA CT-locked Troops selection, BC Dreadnought is rolled into BC Squad to from a "mixed" infantry/vehicle unit ala Ravenwing Attack Squad
- Fenrisian Wolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry is rolled into a single SW CT-locked unit. Works similarly to Inquisitorial Warbands as you build a unit of, say, 1-10 Fenrisian Wolves and/or Thunderwolf Cavalry
- Some random Devastator wargear that confers Split Fire
- Baal Predator is rolled into the normal Predator through weapon options
- All SM vehicles can take Maximus Engines. It changes the vehicle's type to Fast (and White Scar players rejoice)

And that's all, the essential stuff is covered. If you want Wolf Guard then take Sternguard/vanguard Vets, Terminators and upgrade your Sergeants to Veteran Sergeants. if you want Sanguinary Guard then take Honor Guard with JPs. If you want Whateverclaws then take Tacs/Assaults/Bikes and enjoy your WS4/BS4.

So you want BA and SW rolled into the SM codex to make all SM stronger?

Well, that's one way to put it . But it's like, why not? None of these changes would make the SM codex broken but they would give some nice flavor to the book.

This is the big stumbling block to a straight unification. SM has several units that are not represented in SW or are radically different from the closest SW unit (plus that whole Combat Squads thing, but a Blanket rule can cover that).

So? Nobody forces you to use those units or special rules. If you don't want to Combat Squad your Tac Squad because they are in fact Grey Hunters then don't do it. Doh.

niv-mizzet wrote:
I said it in the SW specific thread, but I would really love to see a mock-up of the hypothetical "marines united" codex. Or at least a mock-up of some of the more complicated pages, such as assault marines, that are, by the admission of several posters, intended to be used as a base unit while using upgrades to emulate death company, or downgrades to emulate skyclaws, and giving both armies, including the non-DC assault squad from BA, their appropriate wargear options and rules.

I'm having a hard time picturing it being anything comprehensible to anyone but the hardiest veteran players, but perhaps seeing it might change my mind.

And while we are at it we might as well throw in Dark Angels and a few other Modifications while we are at it some using Fluff and others with suggestions from other threads.

UNIT TYPE: Tactical Squads: Infantry. Space Marine, Sergeant and Veteran Sergeant are Infantry (Character).
WARGEAR:
>Black Templar: Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades
>Blood Angels: Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades
>Dark Angels: Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades
>Imperial Fist: Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades
>Iron Hands: Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades
>Raven Guard: Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades
>Salamanders: Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades
>Space Wolves: Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag grenades, Krak grenades
>Ultra Marines: Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades
>White Scars: Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades

SPECIAL RULES: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>Black Templar: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>Blood Angels: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>Dark Angels: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>Imperial Fist: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>Iron Hands: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>Raven Guard: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>Salamanders: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>Space Wolves: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics
>Ultra Marines: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>White Scars: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads

CHAPTER TACTICS:
>Black Templar: Accept any Challenge no matter the Odds, Crusaders.
>Blood Angels: Red Thirst
>Dark Angels: Grim Resolve
>Imperial Fist: Bolter Drill, Siege Master
>Iron Hands: The Flesh is Weak, Machine Empathy
>Raven Guard: Strike from the Shadows, Winged Deliverance
>Salamanders: Flamecraft, Master Artisans
>Space Wolves: Counter Attack, Acute Senses.
>Ultra Marines: Combat Doctrines
>White Scars: Born in the Saddle, Fight on the Move

TACTICAL SQUAD MODIFICATIONS:
>Black Templar: May add up to 1 Neophyte per Initiate, One Models may now take a Power Weapon, Power Fist or Heavy Weapon, may now take on of each. Any may take a Close Combat Weapon in place of a Bolt Gun. Gain Access to Land Raider Crusaders as a dedicated Transport.
>Blood Angels: Sergeant/Veteran Sergeant may take a Infernus Pistol in place of his Bolt Pistol. Sergeant/Veteran Sergeant may be upgraded to a Sanguinary Priest. May add Fast to Rhino Chassis Dedicated Transports, may take a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport.
>Dark Angels: None
>Imperial Fist: None
>Iron Hands: None
>Raven Guard: None
>Salamanders: May take a Heavy Flamer as a Heavy Weapon
>Space Wolves: Loose Sergeant/Veteran Sergeant and Access to Heavy Weapons, but may take a Ranged Special Weapon per 5 Models. One Model may take a Power Weapon or Power Fist. May take the Mark of the Wolfen, one Model May Trade in his Bolt Pistol for a Plasma Pistol. One Model may take a Wolf Standard.
>Ultra Marines: None
>White Scars: None





UNIT TYPE: Assault Squads: Infantry. Space Marine, Sergeant and Veteran Sergeant are Infantry (Character).
WARGEAR:
>Black Templar: Power Armour, Close Combat Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades, Jump Pack
>Blood Angels: Power Armour, Close Combat Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades, Jump Pack
>Dark Angels: Power Armour, Close Combat Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades, Jump Pack
>Imperial Fist: Power Armour, Close Combat Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades, Jump Pack
>Iron Hands: Power Armour, Close Combat Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades, Jump Pack
>Raven Guard: Power Armour, Close Combat Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades, Jump Pack
>Salamanders: Power Armour, Close Combat Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades, Jump Pack
>Space Wolves: Power Armour, Close Combat Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades, Jump Pack
>Ultra Marines: Power Armour, Close Combat Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades, Jump Pack
>White Scars: Power Armour, Close Combat Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades, Jump Pack

SPECIAL RULES: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>Black Templar: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>Blood Angels: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>Dark Angels: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>Imperial Fist: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>Iron Hands: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>Raven Guard: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>Salamanders: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>Space Wolves: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics
>Ultra Marines: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads
>White Scars: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads

CHAPTER TACTICS:
>Black Templar: Accept any Challenge no matter the Odds, Crusaders.
>Blood Angels: Red Thirst
>Dark Angels: Grim Resolve
>Imperial Fist: Bolter Drill, Siege Master
>Iron Hands: The Flesh is Weak, Machine Empathy
>Raven Guard: Strike from the Shadows, Winged Deliverance
>Salamanders: Flamecraft, Master Artisans
>Space Wolves: Counter Attack, Acute Senses.
>Ultra Marines: Combat Doctrines
>White Scars: Born in the Saddle, Fight on the Move

ASSUALT SQUAD MODIFICATIONS:
>Black Templar: None
>Blood Angels: Sergeant/Veteran Sergeant may take an Infernus Pistol in place of his Bolt Pistol. Sergeant/Veteran Sergeant may be upgraded to a Sanguinary Priest with a Jump Pack. One model for every 5 Models can also take an Infernus Pistol May add Fast to Rhino Chassis Dedicated Transports, may take a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport all for a discount if the Squads drops their Jump Packs. Assault Squads become Troops Choice.
>Dark Angels: None
>Imperial Fist: None
>Iron Hands: None
>Raven Guard: None
>Salamanders: May take a Heavy Pistols in place of Plasma Pistols or Flamers.
>Space Wolves: Loose Sergeant/Veteran Sergeant may take a Melee Special Weapon or Ranged Special Weapon per 5 Models. May take the Mark of the Wolfen, one Model May Trade in his Bolt Pistol for a Plasma Pistol. May not drop Jump Packs.
>Ultra Marines: None
>White Scars: None