Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This is an argument I had a while ago and I thought I'd get the opinion on it (with fancy pictures as well!). Here's the jist
Now lets say you have a tank with a single gun and a unit infiltrators.

Because the tank can;t draw LoS from it's gun to the infiltrators, can they set up within 12" as per the infiltrate rules

Technically vehicles only have line of sight when firing their weapons, so you could even set place them 12" directly in front of the vehicle.

Yeah, nobody really knows how it is supposed to work, as vehicle LOS sits outside the normal rules and doesn't specifically address it.

My personal take on it is to treat it exactly as you would if the vehicle were shooting. Others take the more hardline 'has to be in the vehicle's current LOS' angle, but that is problematic to enforce.... it would technically mean that your unit would have to be directly in front of a weapon barrel to be visible.

I have yet to come across anyone claiming that vehicles could just be ignored for infiltrating, regardless of that interpretation of the RAW.

Yeah, I don't play it that way myself. I usually go with if the unit's in the vehicle's firing arc it has line of sight to the unit.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
This is an argument I had a while ago and I thought I'd get the opinion on it (with fancy pictures as well!). Here's the jist
Now lets say you have a tank with a single gun and a unit infiltrators.

Because the tank can;t draw LoS from it's gun to the infiltrators, can they set up within 12" as per the infiltrate rules

Okay but the chance of you being able to exploit such a deployment tactic on the battlefield is virtually zero, because according to the Infiltrate rules, even if a single enemy unit (regardless how far) can draw LoS to your infiltrating unit, it then has to deploy 18.1" away from said tank.

But let's say that you are indeed extremely lucky and not a single enemy unit can draw LoS to your guys.

In this case, if the vehicle has side sponsons with a 180° fire arc, or a pintle-mounted weapon or a rotating turret, you're still out of luck.

Such a tactic can thus only work on walkers, Vindicators or IG Thunderers.

Not true.
If you're going to that extreme, cite permission to move a turret/sponson/etc. since you draw LoS from the barrel of the weapon, if the barrel is pointed away the mount doesn't matter.

P72 would seem to infer that permission. But a better question, does a weapon that doesn't require LoS to fire count as having a LoS for infiltrators?

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
P72 would seem to infer that permission.

When shooting. Does it say anything about infiltrators?

But a better question, does a weapon that doesn't require LoS to fire count as having a LoS for infiltrators?

No... why would it? Is drawing LoS to infiltrators shooting?

So what rule allows you to rotate your figures to determine LoS when not shooting?

Cheers

Andrew

You dont need to, as you can draw LOS freely through members of your own unit

But you're still restrained by the 'models eye view'. You are allowed to look through other members of your unit, but not yourself. Also by strict definition of the rule on P8, you only ignore members of your own unit when firing. Do you fire when determining LoS to infiltrators?

Cheers

Andrew

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You dont need to, as you can draw LOS freely through members of your own unit

Right, but if your non-vehicle models are facing towards the enemy deployment zone, and you look from behind their head (as the rules for LOS say to do), then how can they see behind them?

 Happyjew wrote:
and you look from behind their head (as the rules for LOS say to do), then how can they see behind them?

Does it say from behind their heads? I'm fairly certain it doesn't.

Edit: Yes it does! My memory fails me at times...

Sorry Happy, but was that addressed to me, Rigeld or Nos?

Caught the edit. I know now.

 AndrewC wrote:
Sorry Happy, but was that addressed to me, Rigeld or Nos?

It was addressed to nos. You beat me with your post. I edited mine to make it clearer.

 Happyjew wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You dont need to, as you can draw LOS freely through members of your own unit

Right, but if your non-vehicle models are facing towards the enemy deployment zone, and you look from behind their head (as the rules for LOS say to do), then how can they see behind them?

How far behind their head do you have to be?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You dont need to, as you can draw LOS freely through members of your own unit

Right, but if your non-vehicle models are facing towards the enemy deployment zone, and you look from behind their head (as the rules for LOS say to do), then how can they see behind them?

How far behind their head do you have to be?

Doesn't specify, however as was pointed out, you can only ignore models in the unit for LOS purposes when shooting. Just like you can only use gun barrels oon vehicles for LOS purposes only when shooting.

 AndrewC wrote:
But you're still restrained by the 'models eye view'. You are allowed to look through other members of your unit, but not yourself.

I'm pretty certain that all models are members of their own units.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
But you're still restrained by the 'models eye view'. You are allowed to look through other members of your unit, but not yourself.

I'm pretty certain that all models are members of their own units.

They are. Now show permission to ignore members in the unit when not shooting.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
But you're still restrained by the 'models eye view'. You are allowed to look through other members of your unit, but not yourself.

I'm pretty certain that all models are members of their own units.

Which, while is debatably grammatically correct, certainly does not address the rest which is that it only applies when firing.

Cheers

Andrew

under the current rules I thought the 18" requirement was if an enemy has line of sight to the infiltrating unit.

If I recall correctly they removed the requirement that it be the unit you are closest to that can draw line of sight to the infiltrators. Meaning that if any enemy unit can draw line of sight to the infiltrators you have to be at least 18" from any other enemy unit.

I don't have my book handy at the moment to look up the exact wording.

Happy, we're doing well at answering each others posts.

 AndrewC wrote:
Happy, we're doing well at answering each others posts.

We're working in tandem, just like if one enemy unit can see the Infiltrators they have to be 18" away from all other enemy units.

rigeld2 wrote:
Not true.
If you're going to that extreme, cite permission to move a turret/sponson/etc. since you draw LoS from the barrel of the weapon, if the barrel is pointed away the mount doesn't matter.

page 8, Model's Eye View, 2nd paragraph, last sentence.

 Sir Arun wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Not true.
If you're going to that extreme, cite permission to move a turret/sponson/etc. since you draw LoS from the barrel of the weapon, if the barrel is pointed away the mount doesn't matter.

page 8, Model's Eye View, 2nd paragraph, last sentence.

Nothing in that entire paragraph, let alone the last sentence, allows you to move turrets/sponsons/etc.
This isn't a borderline case at all. By the rules it's very clear. So your citation is irrelevant.

 Happyjew wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
Happy, we're doing well at answering each others posts.

We're working in tandem, just like if one enemy unit can see the Infiltrators they have to be 18" away from all other enemy units.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Not true.
If you're going to that extreme, cite permission to move a turret/sponson/etc. since you draw LoS from the barrel of the weapon, if the barrel is pointed away the mount doesn't matter.

page 8, Model's Eye View, 2nd paragraph, last sentence.

Nothing in that entire paragraph, let alone the last sentence, allows you to move turrets/sponsons/etc.
This isn't a borderline case at all. By the rules it's very clear. So your citation is irrelevant.

While I disagree with Rigelds position, he is correct in that P8 is not helpful as a citation for vehicle LoS.

Cheers

Andrew

This is the exact same that happened last time.
I dug out the old thread if anyone wants to take a look.
old thread

What about hatches? Embarked models have permission to shoot from them, and draw line of sight from them, but do they have permission to draw line of sight during deployment from them?

 DJGietzen wrote:
Pg 72 only describes how to draw line of sight when firing the vehicle's weapon. There is no permission or instruction on how determine line of sight from a vehicle when not firing its weapon. The infiltrators rule has us check if an enemy unit can draw line of sight to our models.
You can take this to mean to check as if the vehicle was firing its weapon.

If you do then the weapon can rotate in its arc to face the infiltrator.

If you do not then the vehicle can never draw line of sight during deployment and infiltrators may be set up 13 inches in front of its barrel.

I'm inclinde to agree with DJ on this one (from the other thread).

the implication that a vehicle cannot draw line of sight when a turret has a 360 arc of fire (or line of sight in reality) implies the freedom of unrestricted view.

So this means I should deploy tanks with turrets already facing open areas in my deployment zone. :p