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 ClockworkZion wrote:
One review for the curious: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2014/04/new-release-codex-astra-militarum.html

Thanks for the review clockworkzion! It's been quite useful to me

DAT DEFENCE FORCE DOH ! I knew I should have waited to start my guard army. I would have gotten more bang for my buck

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So, if the Fleet Advisor now does what he did before and what the Astropath did before, what's the point of the Astropath again?

Cheap access to Telepathy in the squad it seems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was thinking about the Wyrdvane Psykers and I think they aren't as horrible as people are making them out to be. Firstly they have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule so they only lose a single model if they Perils meaning they can cast powers a lot more often without worrying about losing models as much as the Primaris, and Commissars don't auto-kill models for Perils either, meaning you could stick a Lord Commissar in the unit if you really wanted with no issues.

Now I'm not saying they're great. I'm just saying they're not that horrible.

On a plus-side, the Change from PBS to Wyrdvanes removed Overseers gibbing the unit to stop a perils (or if he was dead, a single perils affecting the entire squad). On the downside, they went down from Leadership 9, which is a fair bit easier to pass a psychic test for.

It seems that the Imperial Guard approaches psykers the same way they approach everything else. The psykers they got are iffy, but they can take a goodly amount, and on the cheap.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Now I'm not saying they're great. I'm just saying they're not that horrible.

I have been thinking that to.

 Peregrine wrote:

Right, time to go and get some Bullgryns to rank alongside my Rough Riders.

Except that's not a fair comparison. Rough riders are not a very competitive unit, but at least they're different. They do something no other unit in the codex can do, and you can legitimately enjoy using them even if they're not the best choice for winning games. Psyker squads, on the other hand, are just HQ psykers with weaker stats. It's a completely redundant unit that has no reason to exist anymore.

And of course if GW had competent game designers we wouldn't even be having this conversation because there wouldn't be any weak units in the codex at all. Rough riders would be a viable competitive choice instead of having terrible rules, and there would be no need to take your bizarre moral high ground and congratulate yourself for using weak units.

Rough Riders used to be if you used the now missing Mogal Kimar. Giving FC and rage to a squad, especially after they errated the old codex paragraph removing the rule that didn't allow the 2 CC bonus. For only 140 pts he would have a 10 mand squad doing 40+ S6 AP3 I5 attacks on the charge. I called that pretty dame good and cost efficient.

Now with Lances being speicalist weapons, and no Kimar, they are worthless. And I used 2 full squads of them. Looks like they (along with the rest of my IG) will be sitting on the shelves until the 7th Ed IG codex.

MY question would be since the rough riders received a modest rules update, might we be seeing new plastics for them soon? Their metal bits are old as hell, and have been slowly falling off the site for the past several weeks.

 kir44n wrote:
MY question would be since the rough riders received a modest rules update, might we be seeing new plastics for them soon? Their metal bits are old as hell, and have been slowly falling off the site for the past several weeks.

They did not update their rules. They are the same as before, just with no Kimar and Lances changed to speicalist weapons, AND a (1) point increase! If you call that an update. They are worse than before and I do not foresee new models as they will not be able to sell any.

 Salted Diamond wrote:

 kir44n wrote:
MY question would be since the rough riders received a modest rules update, might we be seeing new plastics for them soon? Their metal bits are old as hell, and have been slowly falling off the site for the past several weeks.

They did not update their rules. They are the same as before, just with no Kimar and Lances changed to speicalist weapons, AND a (1) point increase! If you call that an update. They are worse than before and I do not foresee new models as they will not be able to sell any.

They were updated to having BOTH a close combat weapon & a laspistol, from having a close combat weapon OR a laspistol. It is an important distinction that increases the number of attacks they get in close combat. So they are in fact better now, for a measly 1 point increase. Yes, I consider that an update.

 kir44n wrote:

 Salted Diamond wrote:

 kir44n wrote:
MY question would be since the rough riders received a modest rules update, might we be seeing new plastics for them soon? Their metal bits are old as hell, and have been slowly falling off the site for the past several weeks.

They did not update their rules. They are the same as before, just with no Kimar and Lances changed to speicalist weapons, AND a (1) point increase! If you call that an update. They are worse than before and I do not foresee new models as they will not be able to sell any.

They were updated to having BOTH a close combat weapon & a laspistol, from having a close combat weapon OR a laspistol. It is an important distinction that increases the number of attacks they get in close combat. So they are in fact better now, for a measly 1 point increase. Yes, I consider that an update.

You ONLY get the +1 attack if you're using the CCW and the Laspistol, and hence are not using the Hunting Lance. You do not get +1 attack universally for having a pair of CCWs- you have to use them.

So basically all Rough Riders gained is an extra attack after their lance attacks. If there is a unit still standing after your lance charge, your Riders are screwed anyway probably.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 kir44n wrote:

 Salted Diamond wrote:

 kir44n wrote:
MY question would be since the rough riders received a modest rules update, might we be seeing new plastics for them soon? Their metal bits are old as hell, and have been slowly falling off the site for the past several weeks.

They did not update their rules. They are the same as before, just with no Kimar and Lances changed to speicalist weapons, AND a (1) point increase! If you call that an update. They are worse than before and I do not foresee new models as they will not be able to sell any.

They were updated to having BOTH a close combat weapon & a laspistol, from having a close combat weapon OR a laspistol. It is an important distinction that increases the number of attacks they get in close combat. So they are in fact better now, for a measly 1 point increase. Yes, I consider that an update.

You ONLY get the +1 attack if you're using the CCW and the Laspistol, and hence are not using the Hunting Lance. You do not get +1 attack universally for having a pair of CCWs- you have to use them.

So basically all Rough Riders gained is an extra attack after their lance attacks. If there is a unit still standing after your lance charge, your Riders are screwed anyway probably.

IT may be because I mostly play nids, but they are not a bad unit. Cheap, cavalry with 2 s5 ap3 i5 attacks on the charge aint bad, the biggest issue these guys have is competing with a Vendetta. And everything in the FA is competing with the Vendetta, even with the point increase it is still a strong flyer.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 kir44n wrote:

 Salted Diamond wrote:

 kir44n wrote:
MY question would be since the rough riders received a modest rules update, might we be seeing new plastics for them soon? Their metal bits are old as hell, and have been slowly falling off the site for the past several weeks.

They did not update their rules. They are the same as before, just with no Kimar and Lances changed to specialist weapons, AND a (1) point increase! If you call that an update. They are worse than before and I do not foresee new models as they will not be able to sell any.

They were updated to having BOTH a close combat weapon & a laspistol, from having a close combat weapon OR a laspistol. It is an important distinction that increases the number of attacks they get in close combat. So they are in fact better now, for a measly 1 point increase. Yes, I consider that an update.

You ONLY get the +1 attack if you're using the CCW and the Laspistol, and hence are not using the Hunting Lance. You do not get +1 attack universally for having a pair of CCWs- you have to use them.

So basically all Rough Riders gained is an extra attack after their lance attacks. If there is a unit still standing after your lance charge, your Riders are screwed anyway probably.

While you are correct kir44n, that they did get the pistol/CCW instead of just 1, the making if lances to specialist weapons has made no change. Once they are used, are you really going to charge them back into assault? Maybe if Kimar was still around to give them FC and Rage, (or if they were WS4) I could conceive them still being semi effective CC after the lances, but with out Kimar they can not do the job they were built to do. While 20 WS3 attacks vs MEQ at WS4 means you should get 10 hits, and then only need +2 to kill, but than is pretty close. Just a few dice one way or the other will alter the outcome, and that's if overwatch misses everything. Before 40+ S6 attacks on the charge meant that what ever MEQ they were pointed at died, a good investment for 140 points. Not it's 110 points for "I might be able to kill that squad on the charge"

barnowl wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 kir44n wrote:

 Salted Diamond wrote:

 kir44n wrote:
MY question would be since the rough riders received a modest rules update, might we be seeing new plastics for them soon? Their metal bits are old as hell, and have been slowly falling off the site for the past several weeks.

They did not update their rules. They are the same as before, just with no Kimar and Lances changed to speicalist weapons, AND a (1) point increase! If you call that an update. They are worse than before and I do not foresee new models as they will not be able to sell any.

They were updated to having BOTH a close combat weapon & a laspistol, from having a close combat weapon OR a laspistol. It is an important distinction that increases the number of attacks they get in close combat. So they are in fact better now, for a measly 1 point increase. Yes, I consider that an update.

You ONLY get the +1 attack if you're using the CCW and the Laspistol, and hence are not using the Hunting Lance. You do not get +1 attack universally for having a pair of CCWs- you have to use them.

So basically all Rough Riders gained is an extra attack after their lance attacks. If there is a unit still standing after your lance charge, your Riders are screwed anyway probably.

IT may be because I mostly play nids, but they are not a bad unit. Cheap, cavalry with 2 s5 ap3 i5 attacks on the charge aint bad, the biggest issue these guys have is competing with a Vendetta. And everything in the FA is competing with the Vendetta, even with the point increase it is still a strong flyer.

The sad part is they make the banewolf look awesome. It's way more durable, the same speed and its weapon will get the same number of hits the RR charge probably would and wounds the same. Only the BW isn't useless after words.

I want to love RR, but ever since they nerfed assaults from reserve, these guys have been maybe the MOST situationaly useful unit in 40k. Heck I'd rather field pyrovores.

barnowl wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 kir44n wrote:

 Salted Diamond wrote:

 kir44n wrote:
MY question would be since the rough riders received a modest rules update, might we be seeing new plastics for them soon? Their metal bits are old as hell, and have been slowly falling off the site for the past several weeks.

They did not update their rules. They are the same as before, just with no Kimar and Lances changed to speicalist weapons, AND a (1) point increase! If you call that an update. They are worse than before and I do not foresee new models as they will not be able to sell any.

They were updated to having BOTH a close combat weapon & a laspistol, from having a close combat weapon OR a laspistol. It is an important distinction that increases the number of attacks they get in close combat. So they are in fact better now, for a measly 1 point increase. Yes, I consider that an update.

You ONLY get the +1 attack if you're using the CCW and the Laspistol, and hence are not using the Hunting Lance. You do not get +1 attack universally for having a pair of CCWs- you have to use them.

So basically all Rough Riders gained is an extra attack after their lance attacks. If there is a unit still standing after your lance charge, your Riders are screwed anyway probably.

IT may be because I mostly play nids, but they are not a bad unit. Cheap, cavalry with 2 s5 ap3 i5 attacks on the charge aint bad, the biggest issue these guys have is competing with a Vendetta. And everything in the FA is competing with the Vendetta, even with the point increase it is still a strong flyer.

Where I play, Escalation & Stronghold assault aren';t questioned, so the vendetta is no longer an autotake. I can get other anti-air that is more efficient. For me Fast Attack comes down to Armored Sentinels, HH or RR if I'm making a fun list. Against Firewarriors, Gaunts, Non-close combat marines , etc, the RR aren't terrible. I also like using them as an MC speedbump. Rush out and charge MCs before they hit a gunline, with a good combat they can tie the MC down until my next turn, leaving my gunline open to kill it. I'm also guessing alot of people don't play with LOS blocking terrain either, because for me cavalry is easy when they can hide behind a wall, move at 12" then charge their 2D6.

I mean, lets also be honest. If you're looking for a super-kill-everything close combat unit....it should probably cost more than 110 points.

Zengu wrote:
So I've got the new codex and I'm looking through it for the force organization chart to see if knights and what not have been added. I looked and looked and gest what? I cant find the force chart unless I missed it Gw forgot to add it in the codex.........

Umm there hasnt been a FoC chart in the Tau, Eldar or Space Marine codex either, so this is nothing new.

 Sir Arun wrote:

Zengu wrote:
So I've got the new codex and I'm looking through it for the force organization chart to see if knights and what not have been added. I looked and looked and gest what? I cant find the force chart unless I missed it Gw forgot to add it in the codex.........

Umm there hasnt been a FoC chart in the Tau, Eldar or Space Marine codex either, so this is nothing new.

To add to that: there have been no FOC charts in any codex that follows the FOC in the main rulebook, only books like Inquisition, Legion of the Damned, and Imperial Knights who have variant FOCs have charts.

Yea yarrick is cheaper and we finally have an independent character that can issue orders

Ah, looks like the rumor of Ogryns losing Stubborn wasn't true. Incidentally, can they make use of Priests this time? It was specifically disallowed by the old rules, so I'm curious to know if that is still in effect.

Looks like priests can join any squad this time round.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Ah, looks like the rumor of Ogryns losing Stubborn wasn't true. Incidentally, can they make use of Priests this time? It was specifically disallowed by the old rules, so I'm curious to know if that is still in effect.

There is no rule that prevents them from rolling from a Priest. And knowing the Ogryns they'd just sing along to the hymns!

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Ah, looks like the rumor of Ogryns losing Stubborn wasn't true. Incidentally, can they make use of Priests this time? It was specifically disallowed by the old rules, so I'm curious to know if that is still in effect.

There is no rule that prevents them from rolling from a Priest. And knowing the Ogryns they'd just sing along to the hymns!

Hold on a minute, so does that mean that a bunch of S5 T5 3W models can get rerolls to hit and wound?
That's...somewhat scary.

Wait, ogryns have three wounds?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Wait, ogryns have three wounds?

Yep. Since ever I believe.

Wow, I know someone who has been playing them wrong.

Co'tor Shas wrote:Wait, ogryns have three wounds?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Ah, looks like the rumor of Ogryns losing Stubborn wasn't true. Incidentally, can they make use of Priests this time? It was specifically disallowed by the old rules, so I'm curious to know if that is still in effect.

There is no rule that prevents them from rolling from a Priest. And knowing the Ogryns they'd just sing along to the hymns!

Hold on a minute, so does that mean that a bunch of S5 T5 3W models can get rerolls to hit and wound?
That's...somewhat scary.

To answer both sets of questions: yes.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Wow, I know someone who has been playing them wrong.

How many wounds did he give him?

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
But seriously, in GW's delusional fantasy world nobody ever takes units because they're effective, they always do it because it fits their fluff or because they want to collect the models. So it's simple: if you want an advisor to attach to your command squad and provide psychic support you take the HQ psyker, if you want a whole squad of psykers running around the battlefield you take the psyker unit. The rules just let you use the models you've already chosen, you shouldn't even read them before making your choice. And if you start doing things like analyzing which is more point-efficient at giving you divination powers then you're obviously TFG and don't understand the One™ True™ Hobby™.

Take out the sarcasm and bitterness and that's pretty much my approach to the hobby.

So, good codex yes?

Nope. Because it ditched Penal Squads. And Al'rahem.

squidhills wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
But seriously, in GW's delusional fantasy world nobody ever takes units because they're effective, they always do it because it fits their fluff or because they want to collect the models. So it's simple: if you want an advisor to attach to your command squad and provide psychic support you take the HQ psyker, if you want a whole squad of psykers running around the battlefield you take the psyker unit. The rules just let you use the models you've already chosen, you shouldn't even read them before making your choice. And if you start doing things like analyzing which is more point-efficient at giving you divination powers then you're obviously TFG and don't understand the One™ True™ Hobby™.

Take out the sarcasm and bitterness and that's pretty much my approach to the hobby.

So, good codex yes?

Nope. Because it ditched Penal Squads. And Al'rahem.

Wait. There were people who actually played Penal Squads? I thought those were considered one of the worst units in the book.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Wait. There were people who actually played Penal Squads? I thought those were considered one of the worst units in the book.

They weren't great, but had their uses. They made ok outflanking scoring units, or cheap scoring units for certain builds.

They were a perfectly fine unit in semi-competitive and casual play lists.

Stubborn, outflank, and scoring made them a viable threat to enemy objective campers (especially with the old astropath giving an outflank re-roll). The random roll rule was more of a bonus, and the whole thing was still reasonably cheap.

I felt they were a fine unit that needed only a small buff to become better (my favorite was another posters suggestion of allowing them to be 10-20 models strong).