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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
That, and it seems everyone keeps miscalculating the strength of our missiles.

An imperial plasma weapon is S7, and is described as hitting with the intensity of a solar flare. Is there anything on earth, perhaps outside of thermite, that's like that?

Imperial Plasma is S7. So are autocannons, which fire hot lead. So is an Ork Nob with a big stick. Also, it's a 'Miniature Solar Flare.' In the same way that a water pistol could be called a 'Miniature Tsunami.' Or a Hair Dryer is a 'Miniature Windstorm.'

All that tells us is that autocannons have one hell of a punch (insta gibbing humans) and that Orks are absurdly strong.

A real life Bofors 40mm Autocannon with a rate of fire of 330 shells/minute and a potential range of several kilometers will insta-gib a person and they're 80 years old. If that's the equivalent of a plasma gun, then we very much do have similar weapons.

Well, so can S6 assault cannons. Still, that is pretty nasty. What can it do to vehicles?

Shoot bullets at them?

I assume that as with most rapid fire weapons it would not be shot at , you know, the 3 inch thick metal, it would most likely be useful for shooting through view slits tough, who needs accuracy when you have more bullets than can be counted on a city's fingers?

MATH TIME!
A Grounding Test is S9 AP2. A Lascannon Shot is S9 AP2. Therefore, a Lascannon shot is within 1 Order of Magnitude to a Grounding Test, in terms of raw power.

A Flying Monstrous Creature can move twice as fast as a human being at top speed. (Running a full 6" = 12" of Movement versus 24". Human top speed is 28 MPH. Assuming heavy body armor, we'll say maybe 22.5Mph. (This is fairly generous.)
Therefore, a FMC can move at 45 MPH.

This is where it gets tricky, because it's not like there's a website that keeps a record of the size and mass of all the 40k monsters.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hive_Tyrant
... Oh.

So a Flyrant weighs 5 Tons. That's about 4500 Kilograms. 45 MPH is 20 MPS. Force = Mass x Acceleration, so a Flyrant takes 90,000 Newtons of energy when Grounded.

Therefore, a Lascannon deals around 90,000 Newtons of force. Let's round that to 100,000. Now, it's far more concentrated, but it's about the same amount of power.
That's around 22,000 Pounds of pressure, and about equal force to a speeding Ford F-150, within about a 3-foot diameter beam.


That's strong, but it's not overwhelmingly powerful.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

madtankbloke wrote:

The biggest difference would be in Doctrine. The imperial guard seems to be a force that tries to gain overwhelming numerical and mateial superiority in a small area, and then pounds the enemy flat. attacking with massed infantry supported by artillery and tanks. They have the ability to adopt what we would call modern mechanised warfare, but they seem to have similar doctrine to the russians did in the second half of WW2. arguably the germans had better trained infantry, better tanks, planes and routinely caused heavier casualties. but the russians still won

The Russians won due to several reasons:

1. Germany was fighting on multiple fronts and could not put enough equipment and supplies into the Russian theatre
2. As a result Germany over extended and could not resupply their troops.

Almost within days the entire Russian air force was destroyed en mass by the German Luftwaffe, and the only thing that kept the Russian air corps in to come back was that the US proceeded to supply them with both equipment and technical knowhow (many of their fighter designs from mid-late war are based on US designs we supplied to them). Their primary tactic until then was to attempt to ram German fighters and hope they took them down because they were so massively outclassed (and imperial fighters are very much 1960s era equivalents in terms of weapon load outs and standard modus operandi in engagements).

The Russians also lost ~25 million men to push out an under equipped and under supplied German force. Without the British and American forces tying up as much German resources as they did, the Russians would have been conquered quite handedly (as they got pretty badly curb stomped until the German front effectively 'ran out of gas' enabling the mass up tactics of the Russians to win).

Germany's fatal mistake, and what cost them the war, was fighting two fronts at once with resources insufficient for that. Had they focused on just Western Europe or just Eastern Europe, they would have won that theatre.

not quite.

The opening of operation Barbarossa in 1941 saw the German military almost totally destroy the Russian Air force, and the russian armoured force. capturing or killing millions of russian soldiers in the opening moves. The german plan then called for the german Army group north to take leningrad, and then hook round moscow. army group center was to drive straight for moscow, and army group south was to take Kiev, and then drive for the caucasus. Taking part was just over 75% of the german military, rising to 80% in 1942 and falling to around 60% fighting in the east by 1945. so the germans did indeed deploy the bulk of their army to russia for the 1941 campaign
What prevented an early German victory wasn't the weather, it wasn't Russian resistance, which was couragous and stiff, it was down to the fact that the german army was only partially motorised. it was 18% in 1941-43 and reached a peak of 22% in 1945. If the german Army had been fully motorised, then the war would have been over by christmas 1941, and even with only a few armoured and motorised formations, it very nearly was.

The main lessons that were drawn from the war was that a military force should be fully motorised, which the US army was after D-day, and that as such, formations should be free to maneuver as and when threats and opportunities presented themselves. this freedom of maneuver was denied the germans both by the lack of motor vehicles, and by the guy at the top saying 'hold at all costs' that the russians didn't smash the german army sooner was down to the excellent mid level officers the germans had (being generally older, better educated and better trained more experienced that their russian counterparts( and the fact that while the germans were only partly mechanised, the russians also suffered the same problem. Lend -lease helped somewhat, but with the massive size of the russian army, was never really going to happen

Modern Military forces are fully Mechanised, The imperial Guard is not. While the imperial guard has very good APC's, and they do have tanks of their own, disadvantaged though they would be against modern 3rd Generation vehicles like the Challenger 2, The Black Panther, Leopard 2, T-80 or T-90 and so forth. the fact that they would be fighting against fully mechanised troops would put them at a severe disadvantage.

Those poopooing Space Marines fail to understand a Space Marine company comes in a Strike Cruiser.

We have no defense against that. They wouldn't even need to land any troops, nor would they. They aren't idiot blood knights you know.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Those poopooing Space Marines fail to understand a Space Marine company comes in a Strike Cruiser.

We have no defense against that. They wouldn't even need to land any troops, nor would they. They aren't idiot blood knights you know.

 Ratius wrote:
Assume a united populace and that we arent orbitally nuked to ash.

Obviously any faction can obliterate us from orbit, that's why for the sake of discussion the OP disregarded it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Those poopooing Space Marines fail to understand a Space Marine company comes in a Strike Cruiser.

We have no defense against that. They wouldn't even need to land any troops, nor would they. They aren't idiot blood knights you know.

Many people have already said that we need to ignore the imperial navy if there is going to be any discussion at all on thus topic.

... these kinds of discussion almost always end with someone ignoring the original conditions. Whether its IoM vs Modern Day Earth or Faction vs Faction, once it gets past page 2 (typically), the constraints of the battle are lost and it becomes Necrons shooting black holes at people from the next quadrant for the lulz.

What's the point of ignoring their principle advantage?

So earth fights back without anything computer related too, since that's our best thing? What other kind of BS stipulations do you want to add to your theoretical masturbation?

Waaaghpower wrote:KorPhaeron: Help me out here, I'm confused on how 100 men manage to take down *any* city. I live in a semi-large city, nowhere near the size of New York or Paris or Berlin, and I can't imagine 100 men with standard Adeptus Astartes gear and vehicles siezing our down-town and succesfully holding it, much less the city. Much less a city four times the size.

Even assuming that the Mechanicus can shut down technology completely incompatible with their own, even assuming that the marines *Could* eventually conquer any city, it would take time. A hell of a lot of time. Even just a day is a lot of time in war, and it would take weeks for 100 Marines to conquer a city of substantial size. And contrary to popular belief, knocking out our capitol doesn't mean you won. It doesn't mean you kinda hurt us. Tactically, a capitol is mostly just a morale victory. We can plan a counter-attack at our lesiure to strike back.

It all comes down to our lack of anti-spaceship weaponry. We've got nothing to defend against Orbital Bombardment, which really is the only thing that would cause us to lose, if anything did.

Funny enough if they killed of everyone in DC then the USA may actually respond with Greater speed and consensus. It usually takes something like that to unite the USA against an enemy and with the remaining civilian part of the federal govt shocked into militarism the USA would be committed. We also would still have a significant federal government leadership that are almost always out of DC.

You are absolutely right that the capturing of a capital is almost always symbolic in the history of warfare.

KorPhaeron77 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
KorPhaeron: Help me out here, I'm confused on how 100 men manage to take down *any* city. I live in a semi-large city, nowhere near the size of New York or Paris or Berlin, and I can't imagine 100 men with standard Adeptus Astartes gear and vehicles siezing our down-town and succesfully holding it, much less the city. Much less a city four times the size.

Even assuming that the Mechanicus can shut down technology completely incompatible with their own, even assuming that the marines *Could* eventually conquer any city, it would take time. A hell of a lot of time. Even just a day is a lot of time in war, and it would take weeks for 100 Marines to conquer a city of substantial size. And contrary to popular belief, knocking out our capitol doesn't mean you won. It doesn't mean you kinda hurt us. Tactically, a capitol is mostly just a morale victory. We can plan a counter-attack at our lesiure to strike back.

It all comes down to our lack of anti-spaceship weaponry. We've got nothing to defend against Orbital Bombardment, which really is the only thing that would cause us to lose, if anything did.

This pushes the constraints of the discussion but ultimately virus bombs would probably be the simplest solution if they wanted the planet and not the people.

If they want the people then they are going to have to do more than destroy capitals to subdue most of the countries on earth. Many of the countries on earth are composed of people that identify themselves as such and follow not just a govt but an ideal, contract, and group identity. If they kill off the govt, change the map, and tell the people they are now the IoM that won't stop almost any nation from fighting even if the population has to use IEDs to do so. Can you even imagine the USA, France, or England giving up because their capital got was conquered...no because I picked nations who have experienced exactly that in the past (Fr by De WW2 conquered, England by several groups in the middle ages and bombed to rubble in WW2, and USA had DC burned to the ground by the British in the War of 1812).

Sorry, I didn't mean take out the whole capitol, so much as wipe out the central governements in one big hit. Drop pod assault into key areas and kill the leaders. The main point though is that this scenario is being governed by an arbitrary "No oribital bombardment clause" But quite honestly that would be the easiest solution the Imperium would have. The could independence day our major cities and then give an ultimatum, surrender or the rest of your cities die. It's exactly why America nuked the Japanese, because a war of attrition would have been costly and taken time. The imperium wouldn't waste billions of guardsmen when they can just glass a continent. That's assuming it even came to war. An intelligent commander would survey the planet, see that we are a world on the verge of an energy crisis in the next century. Speak to our leaders, agree lucrative deals between the 1% and the Adminstratum, and we'd be in the Imperium without ever even getting a choice. Arbites and Imperial cults would be set up across the population and we would struggle to ever shake off their grip afterwards. If we made a big fuss they could just virus bomb us and send a re-colonisation fleet in about 50 years later. If the whole Babab sector, with 4 Chapters and tons of stockpiled resources couldn't fight of the Imperium for much more than a decade, then we wouldn't stand a chance, no matter how many times we compare a lasgun to a AK-47.

That could work to a degree though the amount of men and material the IoM would probably demand would make this impossible. Still when the IoM reveals the anti aging drugs the planetory govt could get we would loose a huge portion of our current leadership. It really depends on how much the IoM let us discover about them before they have sufficient pull within our social structure and assets on the ground to block any uprisings.


As for what most of the other races could do.

The DE could raid us pretty much freely with little reprisal. We are too spread out to react to a DE webway assault and I am sure the DE vehicles have some sort of stealth tech.

CWE could raid well or they could manipulate us from the shadows with huge amounts of success. They could an would never bother to conquer us due to limited numbers. If they want to wipe us out then we are talking about actually fighting a different faction as the CWE would never attempt such a thing.

Orks would never loose as we as a planet are not disciplined enough to wipe out all the spores, ever. However it is very likely that we would capture tech before they win and that is a crazy good basis for developing tech. If they don't wipe us out we would be a crazy powerful faction within a few thousand years due to the application of the scientific method to ork tech.

Nids would almost assuredly kill us all. Not due to military force but due to genestealers eroding our societies utterly and us being in a full world war before the hivefleet even shows up.

The necron could definitely take us. They have the numbers, they have mind shackle, and they have the speed and tech. If the necrons were full bore then they couldn't be stopped and even capturing tech is essentially impossible due to phase out. Brutal.

Tau could probably do it but would almost certainly do it through diplomacy. We would be a part of the Tau empire with fairly little coaxing and probably before realizing exactly what that means.

Chaos could definitely do it as a single faction. The big thing is that the overall method would probably be subverting the world religions to worship chaos gods. Once they get enough followers they would probably open a gate and make us into a daemon world. Once this happens it is done there is nothing we could do without some understanding of warp tech and we don't have the social structures to block it like the Tau, eldar, and IoM have.

The IoM btw can definitely do it but they are too compatible with us and so if they don't do it in the first battle group their success rate goes way down. There is also the problem that due to them being the hero in their books they are always given 1/100th the numbers they would need and due to plot armour always manage. It makes them more "heroic" but it makes it ridiculous when thought about.

One Genestealer is capable of dominating all.

 Ratius wrote:
What array of forces from each faction do you guys think it would take to conquer our Earth in its current state?

Assume a united populace and that we arent orbitally nuked to ash.

One ripper.

Fired at the smallest fraction under light speed the universe will allow.

At this speed a grain of sand strikes with the force of several petatons of TNT equivalence, so an entire ripper will hit with enough force to mass scatter if not vaporize the entire planet.

Bam, done.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
What's the point of ignoring their principle advantage?

So if someone asked you who would win between a human and an ant BUT the human was scaled down to ant size, you would automatically reply "What's the point of ignoring their principle advantage?"?

There is no discussion otherwise, so stipulations are made to make it interesting.

None. Earth would win. Why? Because we don't roll for everything.

Murdius Maximus wrote:
None. Earth would win. Why? Because we don't roll for everything.

That's what you think, but honestly, our world leaders are just busy playing Risk with each other over a couple of pints.

 Kain wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
What array of forces from each faction do you guys think it would take to conquer our Earth in its current state?

Assume a united populace and that we arent orbitally nuked to ash.

One ripper.

Fired at the smallest fraction under light speed the universe will allow.

At this speed a grain of sand strikes with the force of several petatons of TNT equivalence, so an entire ripper will hit with enough force to mass scatter if not vaporize the entire planet.

Bam, done.

If the ripper were an infinitely strong and hard material. Due to the fact it is not the energy will largely be dissipated by it burning up in atmosphere and then the subsequent ash and gas scattering. Still probably one heck of a down burst though. Anybody have the program and computer time to run the simulation?

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
An Imperial Guard battle group. They maybe flashlights to space marines but to us Lasguns are far more powerful than any infantry standard issue small arm we have. A Leman Russ battle tank would make mincemeat out of any earth tank. Baneblades could roll over entire tank armies without stopping. Basilisks would destroy any fortifications we have. Vendettas would blow out helicopters out of the sky with so much ease. Flak armor would be all but invulnerable to our assault rifle rounds.

After we just start dropping dust bombs and salting rain clouds over the battlezone, the lasgun becomes completely useless (never mind the let's all line up and fight IG tactic means one missile that the IG has 0 defense against ends them without them ever firing a single round). The Leman Russ is a mediocre tank. It might have a reasonable gun, but it's slow, not particularly mobile, poor armor, and has a very tall and visible silhouette, etc. A modern tank runs rings around it without getting into anything flashy such as the M1A1's fire with pinpoint accuracy while doing ~30kph up and down hills (i.e. over unstable terrain) from 2 miles away.

As a general note, the M1A1 vs Leman Russ:

Leman Russ Hull Armor: 180mm
M1A1: 350/700 (350 vs certain rounds, 700 vs others)

Leman Russ shell size: 120mm
M1A1: 120mm

Leman Russ height: ~16ft
M1A1: 8ft

Leman Russ speed: 35kph
M1A1 speed: 67kph

Go to ~38minutes in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrN66eGAfuQ

So it's much weaker armor, much slower, and a much larger target. Meaning it pretty much looses every time.

It's all hyperbole behind a lot of the Imperial stuff that comes standard issue. Modern weapons trump a lot of 40k equipment, including the modern battle rifle in all areas save the fact a lasgun can recharge. 40k is the 'bigger is better' mentality that generally fails in reality.

I'm like 99 percent sure that armor is way harder in 40000 years compared to them. Congrats your 700mm think but you armor is hard as pillows comparatively. The material quality is so much greater than ours now. Also lasguns would destroy flesh.

Lets go with a tactical squad loaded up 10 man squad.
Sergeant with bolter (two round burst explosive round iirc), chain sword, melta bombs, and power armor (compared to lasgun can deflect most shots, aka a 50 cal.), super strength and the ability to survive almost any environment and other crap.
7 marines with bolters, chain swords or pistols
1 marine with any special weapon. Lets say a plasma gun (that would be able to hurt armor even)
1 marine with any heavy weapon. Lets say with a plasma cannon (blowing bitched up).
Transports lets say a drop pod with a death wing launcher. Explosives everywhere and precision to hit key areas.

So with fear and tactical advantage a single marine squad could almost wipe a base out by itself. Worst case land a ton of marine in Chernobyl with whirlwinds and air superiority they would probably be able to kill at a almost 100:1 ratio.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
An Imperial Guard battle group. They maybe flashlights to space marines but to us Lasguns are far more powerful than any infantry standard issue small arm we have. A Leman Russ battle tank would make mincemeat out of any earth tank. Baneblades could roll over entire tank armies without stopping. Basilisks would destroy any fortifications we have. Vendettas would blow out helicopters out of the sky with so much ease. Flak armor would be all but invulnerable to our assault rifle rounds.

After we just start dropping dust bombs and salting rain clouds over the battlezone, the lasgun becomes completely useless (never mind the let's all line up and fight IG tactic means one missile that the IG has 0 defense against ends them without them ever firing a single round). The Leman Russ is a mediocre tank. It might have a reasonable gun, but it's slow, not particularly mobile, poor armor, and has a very tall and visible silhouette, etc. A modern tank runs rings around it without getting into anything flashy such as the M1A1's fire with pinpoint accuracy while doing ~30kph up and down hills (i.e. over unstable terrain) from 2 miles away.

As a general note, the M1A1 vs Leman Russ:

Leman Russ Hull Armor: 180mm
M1A1: 350/700 (350 vs certain rounds, 700 vs others)

Leman Russ shell size: 120mm
M1A1: 120mm

Leman Russ height: ~16ft
M1A1: 8ft

Leman Russ speed: 35kph
M1A1 speed: 67kph

Go to ~38minutes in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrN66eGAfuQ

So it's much weaker armor, much slower, and a much larger target. Meaning it pretty much looses every time.

It's all hyperbole behind a lot of the Imperial stuff that comes standard issue. Modern weapons trump a lot of 40k equipment, including the modern battle rifle in all areas save the fact a lasgun can recharge. 40k is the 'bigger is better' mentality that generally fails in reality.

The Abram's stats are in armor equivalence while the Leman Russ is in absolute thickness.

The actual thickness of any modern tank's armor is classified to the point that you'd get thrown in prison for posting it online.

In any case, forget the Imperium, it's been done to death, the Xenos and forces of Chaos are much more interesting in this Scenario, I once made a thread where a billion orks with full mechanization in two thousand space ships attacked Earth.

Earth obviously went down hard.

We would have all made a fight out of it, but we simply died in a massive WAAAGH!

Ignoring the other factions.

I think we would dominate Imperial Guard if all the fighting was on the Earth and they didn't bombard us from space. All of their aircraft is just pathetic in comparison to what the US can pour out. In a training exhibition between the US and Germany a few years ago the F-22 Raptors were locking on to the Germans Typhoons from 19.6 KM's away. Thunderbolts would be shot out of the sky left right and center as they blind fired their Lascannons at targets not in visual. An Apache MkII can pour out 20 times as much fire power as a Vulture. Once the air battle is over, then there is nothing to protect the guard tanks from Drone strikes, AC-130s and pounding from various countries bombers.

Also keep in mind that pretty much all the IG tanks don't have edged armour, so everything that hits them does a lot more damage then it should.

The US has 10 Aircraft carriers that can launch between 40-90 Aircraft each... Add in the rest of the words 12 Aircraft carriers in an uncontested ocean being backed up by Destroyers, Frigates and every Sub-Marine we have and the Guard aren't going to be able to land anywhere with out being pulverized.

The Imperial Guards technology is pretty much what Iraq used in the Gulf War + Lasers, Plasma, Lava Guns and over-sized tanks. They lost 20 000 - 35 000 Troops in combat. The US lost around 250, of that 250 only about 110 were from combat.

The Guard would need to out number us so much it's ridiculous if you factor that they're the invading force on a foreign world they know very little about.

Now of course once the Guard realized this we would be annihilated from orbit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:


The Abram's stats are in armor equivalence while the Leman Russ is in absolute thickness.

The actual thickness of any modern tank's armor is classified to the point that you'd get thrown in prison for posting it online. -what?

In any case, forget the Imperium, it's been done to death, the Xenos and forces of Chaos are much more interesting in this Scenario, I once made a thread where a billion orks with full mechanization in two thousand space ships attacked Earth.

Earth obviously went down hard.

We would have all made a fight out of it, but we simply died in a massive WAAAGH!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams I guess I'm going to jail then.


Tankers drive an M1A1 Abrams through the Taunus Mountains north of Frankfurt during Exercise Ready Crucible in February 2005.
The Abrams is protected by armor based on the British-designed Chobham armor, a further development of the British 'Burlington' armor. Chobham is a composite armor formed by spacing multiple layers of various alloys of steel, ceramics, plastic composites, and kevlar, giving an estimated maximum (frontal turret) 1,320–1,620 millimetres (52–64 in) of RHAe versus HEAT (and other chemical energy rounds) and 940–960 mm (37–38 in) versus kinetic energy penetrators.[45] It may also be fitted with reactive armor over the track skirts if needed (as in the Urban Survival Kit) and slat armor over the rear of the tank and rear fuel cells to protect against ATGMs. Protection against spalling is provided by a Kevlar liner. Beginning in 1987, M1A1 tanks received improved armor packages that incorporated depleted uranium (DU) components in their armor at the front of the turret and the front of the hull. Armor reinforced in this manner offers significantly increased resistance towards all types of anti-tank weaponry, but at the expense of adding considerable weight to the tank, as depleted uranium is 1.7 times more dense than lead.[46]
The first M1A1 tanks to receive this upgrade were tanks stationed in Germany, since they were the first line of defense against the Soviet Union. US-based tank battalions participating in Operation Desert Storm received an emergency program to upgrade their tanks with depleted uranium armor immediately before the onset of the campaign. M1A2 tanks uniformly incorporate depleted uranium armor, and all M1A1 tanks in active service have been upgraded to this standard as well. The added protection from the depleted uranium armor is believed to be equivalent to 24 inches (610 mm) of RHA. In the Persian Gulf War, Abrams tanks survived multiple hits at relatively close ranges from Iraqi Lion of Babylon tanks and ATGMs. M829A1 "Silver Bullet" APFSDS rounds from other M1A1 Abrams were unable to penetrate the front and side armor (even at close ranges) in friendly fire incidents as well as an incident in which an Abrams tried to destroy an abandoned Abrams stuck in the mud.[47]

Here's a fun little website you can use to get an idea of what we can produce. http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison.asp

The problem with fighting Marines, Ravengatorfan: They cannot absorb 1:100 losses, because there are only 1000 of them per chapter. (Not to mention, it'd be closer to 1:10 against actual armed and trained military forces. Civilians and untrained, sure. 1:100, or 1:500 even.)
As Zande pointed out, though, our weapons kick their asses in terms of range. Their longest weapons have about a 2 Kilometer range. Those are titan-class siege weapons. They'd never get close to us before we vaporized them.



The problem with *your* scenario, Zande, is that the Imperial Guard CAN absorb 1:140 Losses. Heck, modern war tactics are vastly superior to what the Guard use. We can say 1:1000 losses. But the Guard are pretty much limitless. They can throw trillions of soldiers at us before running dry. We'd run out of fuel and ammo before we killed them.

As I said, estimated equivalency, not absolute thickness,

You aren't even allowed to photograph the interior of any modern tank.

Nor are you allowed to know what tank armor is made of beyond "Composites!"

And I sure as hell can't tell you what I was trained to aim for during my time in the Russian military.

Modern tanks are wrapped up in endless secrecy and classified data and I really wish civilians would stop talking about them when they only know what the state lets them, which is rather little.

 ravengatorfan wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
An Imperial Guard battle group. They maybe flashlights to space marines but to us Lasguns are far more powerful than any infantry standard issue small arm we have. A Leman Russ battle tank would make mincemeat out of any earth tank. Baneblades could roll over entire tank armies without stopping. Basilisks would destroy any fortifications we have. Vendettas would blow out helicopters out of the sky with so much ease. Flak armor would be all but invulnerable to our assault rifle rounds.

After we just start dropping dust bombs and salting rain clouds over the battlezone, the lasgun becomes completely useless (never mind the let's all line up and fight IG tactic means one missile that the IG has 0 defense against ends them without them ever firing a single round). The Leman Russ is a mediocre tank. It might have a reasonable gun, but it's slow, not particularly mobile, poor armor, and has a very tall and visible silhouette, etc. A modern tank runs rings around it without getting into anything flashy such as the M1A1's fire with pinpoint accuracy while doing ~30kph up and down hills (i.e. over unstable terrain) from 2 miles away.

As a general note, the M1A1 vs Leman Russ:

Leman Russ Hull Armor: 180mm
M1A1: 350/700 (350 vs certain rounds, 700 vs others)

Leman Russ shell size: 120mm
M1A1: 120mm

Leman Russ height: ~16ft
M1A1: 8ft

Leman Russ speed: 35kph
M1A1 speed: 67kph

Go to ~38minutes in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrN66eGAfuQ

So it's much weaker armor, much slower, and a much larger target. Meaning it pretty much looses every time.

It's all hyperbole behind a lot of the Imperial stuff that comes standard issue. Modern weapons trump a lot of 40k equipment, including the modern battle rifle in all areas save the fact a lasgun can recharge. 40k is the 'bigger is better' mentality that generally fails in reality.

I'm like 99 percent sure that armor is way harder in 40000 years compared to them. Congrats your 700mm think but you armor is hard as pillows comparatively. The material quality is so much greater than ours now. Also lasguns would destroy flesh.

Lets go with a tactical squad loaded up 10 man squad.
Sergeant with bolter (two round burst explosive round iirc), chain sword, melta bombs, and power armor (compared to lasgun can deflect most shots, aka a 50 cal.), super strength and the ability to survive almost any environment and other crap.
7 marines with bolters, chain swords or pistols
1 marine with any special weapon. Lets say a plasma gun (that would be able to hurt armor even)
1 marine with any heavy weapon. Lets say with a plasma cannon (blowing bitched up).
Transports lets say a drop pod with a death wing launcher. Explosives everywhere and precision to hit key areas.

So with fear and tactical advantage a single marine squad could almost wipe a base out by itself. Worst case land a ton of marine in Chernobyl with whirlwinds and air superiority they would probably be able to kill at a almost 100:1 ratio.

100:1 ratio, how... cute! A chapter has 1000 marines, there that would been they'd kill about 100 000 soldiers, or roughly 5% of the US army, very very cute indeed.

 Kain wrote:
As I said, estimated equivalency, not absolute thickness,

You aren't even allowed to photograph the interior of any modern tank.

Nor are you allowed to know what tank armor is made of beyond "Composites!"

And I sure as hell can't tell you what I was trained to aim for during my time in the Russian military.

Modern tanks are wrapped up in endless secrecy and classified data and I really wish civilians would stop talking about them when they only know what the state lets them, which is rather little.

What are you on about?

M1 Abrams interior (US) - https://www.google.com.au/search?q=M1+Abrams+interior&espv=210&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=pkEhU9KRBIbAkgXWyYGoBw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=979

Leopard 2A6 interior (German) - https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Leopard+2A6+interior&espv=210&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=8kEhU5jKKY2flQXrlYH4BQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=979

T-90 interior (Russian) - https://www.google.com.au/search?q=T-90+interior&espv=210&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=HEIhU5iSMoWNkAXdzIGIAg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=979

@WaaaghpowerMade I agree, we would be drowned by their numbers eventually. I was more commenting towards the people claiming that Guard had it over us in an evenly numbered skirmish.

Official pictures, likely, but a soldier on exercise can't take pictures of the tank or its interior (not even your own rifle)

The imperium of man has the tech edge over us in two major areas, metallurgy and miniaturized power sources, allowing them to make anti grav vehicles, house sized tanks, titans, plasma and laser rifles etc.

We have the edge in computer technology, especially micro-processors and detection (radar and satellites). That allows us to have tanks that can balance wine glasses on their main guns while moving over rough terrain and Fire and Forget missiles and our huge advantage in the air.

Do I think we'd win versus the imperium of Man? Hell no, even just with the guard alone we're no so far ahead that they can't just drown us in more stuff that probably as good as most of our equipment. Once marines get involved its over, their rapid global strike capability would probably be too much for us to deal with, they can hit us where it hurts until we sue for peace.

However we would give good account of ourselves.

Did any one saw a patron here? maybe to much american movies where tecnological advance civilization were crush by a mac virus and will smith
Truly, a xenos magos, using a single human as sample to create a geno-virus and release it with a deathstrike missile, dont care if they shut donw the missile, the toxins are release it on the air currents and puff, good bye humanity.
A single chaos sorcerer making puff on the deepest buneker of sencret security room (of any country) and using their psychic powers to control the will of the high echeleons and sending troops where there is only thin air, mean while, CSM warbands spreading terror on the civilian population, making censored things to the poor little humans , mean while, sending deamons to trick and break the will of each soldiers before the slaughter, and a tzeencht greater daemon making false promises to generals and trick them into fingthing each other by greed and ambition, then a single chaos lord on a seeker enjoying the massacre meanwhile the soldiers, mezzmerising with the sight of sexy deamonettes, just stand still.... and puff again, no more humanity.
The tau, lol, the send waves after waves of riptides to destroy the thick of the infantry, send the crisis armours to hunt down vehicles, broadsides playing point and destroy with the aerial power and the kroots, well, enjoying the buffet of the civilian population.
Space marinees, lol, you are figthing a mole that moves and react 100 time faster tahna human, even they can evade a tank shell (ragnar books) a single scout sgt and a squad of 5 explorers and camo cloacks, poping up hundreds of tanks with melta bombs and a power fist, and a single librarian crushing the little mind of any body just waving his hand; dont forget a single tech marine breacking the codes of any computer sistem and posting the photos of all leaders of the world when they where babys...

That post made my brain bleed...

Bharring wrote:
A Farseer and time to hatch an elaborate plot.

Or just a genestealer.

A Herald might also solo it, but most other factions would probably take a company.

I agree, just 1 Genestealer then kerplunk... Here comes the Hive to eat Earth after the Genestealers take us out. They come at night, mostly...

In any case, this scenario depends entirely on your calcs.

The calcs that put lasguns at megajoule firepower that bores through meters of concrete, while Orks shrug off .50 cal BMGs like raindrops, with marines capable of punching through eight inches of steel with their basic bolters and moving around like spiderman on crack while lance batteries put the K-T Impactor asteroid to shame with single shots at full power means that we get curbstomped by even token forces.

Low balling 40k to it's minimum means that the curb-stomp happens in reverse as single Spetsnaz squads mow down thousands of Chaos space marines.

I generally tend towards high end 40k for my interpretation and write my fiction to reflect that.

Essentially, I'd see us as crumbling in short order before something like the first war for Armageddon, the Maynarkh Dynasty, or the battle of Macragge.

From what we know of the Necrons, they'd first send out their malignant broadcasts that essentially sidefeth any electronics that receive the message; causing most of modern society to undergo massive disruptions. Then they'd cause a huge solar storm in the sun, frying most of what remained of the electronics and cooking everyone on the dayside of the planet. At this point, only military hardware is in any way functional, the civilians are in a panic and millions if not billions are dead. Society is on it's last legs at this point if it hasn't already keeled over and died.

Then the Necrons start landing and sweep up what remains. Our industry is already functionally dead, civilizations have collapsed, and economies have receded tremendously. We fight for as long as we are able barring Necron mindhax, but it's futile. Most small arms are useless against the Necrons; accelerating the already occuring demise of the Assault Rifle as we know it (grunts with ARs already cause absolutely pitiful numbers of casualties, 5% or so, and even the Taliban uses AR grunts as cannon fodder because RPGs are more effective) but thanks to the collapse of most societal networks, new weapons aren't forth coming.

Our already small peacetime stocks of high end munitions(Libya put a strain on NATO's supply of PGMs, and America is running rather low on Javelins) are quickly depleted, there's no time or resources left to shift to second world war era levels of militarized heavy industrialization (which is quite hard to do). We don't give up, this is a war of extinction, and history shows that when faced with such wars, national wills are very hard to break. But the Maynarkh Dynasty doesn't offer us any surrender terms anyway.

In a short period of time, Earth is silent. All human activity has ceased, and only the silent legions of the Tomb Worlders remain.

Obviously there are plenty of ways to subversively take us down but I think the OP had a big kursk style battle in mind.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
What's the point of ignoring their principle advantage?

Because disregarding orbital attacks makes an interesting discussion and not doing so makes "aliens win from orbit".

And we like interesting discussions.