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If I ran a miniatures company and had you as a customer, i would do anything to keep you around.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Lots of wargamers are like me, and we are no longer the target market for GW.

Does anyone even know what the target market for GW actually is these days?
It seems to be 'people who buy GW products', which is, you know, dumb, but I genuinely don't think we have the information to be able to say one way or the other and GW seem to only be interested in telling themselves what their target market is, not actually researching and finding out the facts.


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 frozenwastes wrote:
If I ran a miniatures company and had you as a customer, i would do anything to keep you around.

As someone who is really, really terrible when it comes to seeing a new shiny and buying it without thinking but has bought all of 1 pot of paint from GW in the last 6 months I couldn't agree more. That is exactly the kind customer you want. I haven't counted how much I have spent on the hobby this year because holy gak I know I'd make myself feel bad if I did (I have about $200 of random infinity models on my desk as well as 2 28mm Dreamforge Leviathans under it that I bought purely because they all looked cool and were all on sale at one point).

Yet GW seem to have no interest in catering to these sorts of customers because...? It's somehow more cost effective to constantly bring in new customers? Us vets are expected to buy everything GW put out anyway so there is no need to waste effort on us?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I understand GW's argument that people would get bored of the game if they did not keep changing it. That is self-serving, of course, because people can play a different game if they get bored, but GW don't want the trouble and expense of inventing different games any more, so they just keep making changes to their existing game.

Unfortunately, GW have managed the trick of modifying the game to make it worse by making it bigger and too complex and expensive, without having got the core rules to a good peak first.

The game would be a lot more interesting if, for example, the UGOIGO was replaced by a system of unit activation by cards. That would be easy and cheap to implement. GW could put snazzy cards into every unit box and sell spares separately for old armies. But GW want to implement complex and expensive things, like the Knight Titan, which is designed to make everyone buy Escalation.

I accept that, as a business, GW want to maximise their profits. However I am not a shareholder and I only care about how GW can maximise my game playing enjoyment.

GW, like TSR, have got to the point where most of the stuff they are publishing is irrelevant and even in some ways detrimental to my interest in their game.

I think they could stop changing things up and go for streamlining. They don't have to stop completely and say "40k v7 will never change", they can continue to tweak it. The main difference here is that GW has a continually evolving product, i.e. the miniatures, which TSR didn't have so after a while everything was too bloated with rules and optional rules and additional books that you might want to use and campaign settings and historical settings and the like. GW could produce a streamlined set of rules that's clear and concise, and then just evolve it every so often with editions and updates. Hell with the dataslate/supplement route (barring the crazy cost) they don't even need to republish the codex, they can create a new unit and add it to a dataslate or a supplement instead, without having a blatant "Oh new unit means new codex just $75 buy yours now!" kind of marketing shilling.

There's so much in the 40k (and to a lesser extent fantasy) meta that they could pump out new things without ever touching or revamping the rules (assuming the rules were good) if they chose to. Warzones, campaigns, dataslates, scenarios, the list goes on. If they had rules that stood the test of time and were a framework, then they could just add to it without any issues. But instead they deliberately shake up the rules because they have this idea that people aren't going to buy unless they do.

What GW doesn't realize is that streamlined, solid and flexible rules with reasonably-priced models is going to do a lot more than pretending you're selling a luxury product with $50 books and $40+ figures that you need several of. They like to think they are a luxury hobby but really the only luxury is in the cost. How many of us who no longer play would play again if the rules were balanced and prices were reasonable, say what they were in 2002 (which was still higher than inflation then), without all the angry GW vs. the world things (e.g. bitz was back, mail order had deals again, etc)? A lot of us, I bet. I would buy things all the time if a normal squad was $20 instead of double that.

My first army was squats. My second was imperial arbites. My third was genestealer cultists. After 3rd hit i didnt even touch the game til 5th. Even then I was squeamish about giving them money.


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Yeah battletech has changed less in 20 years than gw does in one edition look how that worked for them. Story advance and some new gear does wonders. If it wasnt for the robotech lawsuit they would be leagues ahead. Maybe it kept them humble. Who can say? Prime example of what is being suggested here though.

As a player I would like GW to produce a modernised set of core rules, tested over a couple of editions until it was solid and well balanced. Include codexes for 10 core armies (SM, IG, Impy specials (SoB and Grey Knights), Tyranids, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Necrons, Chaos.) Release every book in a full size hardback version with fluff and modelling guide, and a reduced size, reduced price, rules only version for people who don't need the fluff and stuff.

Then stop changing 40K because it is now as good as it will ever be.

From now on, do add-ons for super-heavies, fliers, fortifications, Cities of Death, a set of vehicle design rules so people can make their own cool conversions and put them in the game, and variants of the core army lists for all the different colours of SMs and dataslates and so on. The rest of this stuff doesn't need to be balanced because it's for occasional special fun games. A lot of it could be left to Forge World and the Imperial Armour books like it used to be.

Finally, make some new games.

That's what I find so funny. They could easily build a solid set of core rules that allow additions, and then build on it with dataslates. Look at how Warmachine/Hordes tends to handle it - not the rules themselves necessarily, but how they have a rules framework that lets them pit two different games against each other as well as have constant new releases and upgrades that can play against each other, without invalidating the earlier ones that exist.

That's what GW should do, in concept at least. A solidly flexible rules framework that's easy to understand and well balanced, and then add extras as you need to without invalidating entire armies or collections just to force people to buy more.

Lol is gw bound to buy back its products should they go the TSR path?

I've been involved with GW for about 15 years now. We just got a GW store in my area about 2 years ago. I was talking to the new store owner the other day and he told me that they have plans to open up 3-4 more stores in my area, I am confused now!?! I agree that GW is on a downwards spiral but how in the hell are they going to open 3 more stores in my little area. The gaming community in my area is large but not that large. So this almost feels like an attempt to spread the word of their products to maybe attracted new customers. All I have to say is alittle too late GW, I am going to finish the armies I have but will be done after that. I have already moved to other paints becasue the resent batch of GW paint is too watered down and drys up way too fast for the cost.

They'll open 3 because they'll have closed 3 elsewhere, this is the MO.

They open, farm the area for as long as possible, if it continues to make money, great, if not, fire the manager (GW don't do franchise, so the guy you spoke to was an employee, loosely termed 'manager' not an owner) and find another location.

It is a terrible approach, IMO, and totally prevents the possibility of the growth of a sustainable, long term wargaming communities in many locations where an independent shop would have a real chance at developing one, but they've shown that they really don't care about long term anything.

 Ruberu wrote:
I've been involved with GW for about 15 years now. We just got a GW store in my area about 2 years ago. I was talking to the new store owner the other day and he told me that they have plans to open up 3-4 more stores in my area, I am confused now!?! I agree that GW is on a downwards spiral but how in the hell are they going to open 3 more stores in my little area. The gaming community in my area is large but not that large. So this almost feels like an attempt to spread the word of their products to maybe attracted new customers. All I have to say is alittle too late GW, I am going to finish the armies I have but will be done after that. I have already moved to other paints becasue the resent batch of GW paint is too watered down and drys up way too fast for the cost.

Agree on the paints. Lids seem to either not shut properly or open back up after being shut a lot of the time. Even being really vigilant to ensure I have pressed the lids down hard often the pot wont be properly closed when I go back to it for the next painting session.

WayneTheGame wrote:
That's what I find so funny. They could easily build a solid set of core rules that allow additions, and then build on it with dataslates. Look at how Warmachine/Hordes tends to handle it - not the rules themselves necessarily, but how they have a rules framework that lets them pit two different games against each other as well as have constant new releases and upgrades that can play against each other, without invalidating the earlier ones that exist.

That's what GW should do, in concept at least. A solidly flexible rules framework that's easy to understand and well balanced, and then add extras as you need to without invalidating entire armies or collections just to force people to buy more.

All GW needs to do is look at what Forgeworld does. Most of their expansions come in the form of campaigns.

 Ruberu wrote:
I've been involved with GW for about 15 years now. We just got a GW store in my area about 2 years ago. I was talking to the new store owner the other day and he told me that they have plans to open up 3-4 more stores in my area, I am confused now!?!

Did you really expect him to say:
"GW is going to be bancrupt soon because the rules suck, the models are overpriced crap and our dictator boss is an idiot! Please buy elsewhere!"

 Kroothawk wrote:

Did you really expect him to say:
"GW is going to be bancrupt soon because the rules suck, the models are overpriced crap and our dictator boss is an idiot! Please buy elsewhere!"

No he won't. Probably because he's an intelligent person who can understand that the world is not binary.

One of the staff at Dark Sphere told me that Imperial Knights were one of the most successful GW launches he can remember. He also said Warhammer Visions was selling really badly. Always good to look at all the evidence, ain't it?

I think the main thing we should be worried about at this point is predicting the future of the gaming market. What companies do you think will expand, how much will the overall size of the hobby fall, stuff like that. We know GW isn't going to collapse overnight, but it is going to be down or at least not an industry leader before the decade is up. The only hope 40k has of remaining top dog is for another company to buy their IP up, so who is that going to be? Lets not argue on why they're failing- it has been made abundantly clear that they are failing- and look toward the future of the (no longer HHH)hobby.

40K doesn't have to be an industry leader though. Hell the fact there is a tabletop company pulling 200+ million a year in revenue is bonkers given that computer games and the like really limit the new customer base. GW is facing a similar problem to other industry leading companies in niche markets. The market is shifting, and GW doesn't seem willing to notice.

I think the more interesting line is that once GW's revenue finally nose dives off a cliff and they flatline and contract back into a mail order models company or sell off the IP, will we ever see a tabletop company get near their size again?

 Saevus wrote:


I think the more interesting line is that once GW's revenue finally nose dives off a cliff and they flatline and contract back into a mail order models company or sell off the IP, will we ever see a tabletop company get near their size again?

It's possible but Consider that GW have grown over 30+ years - They sought investment and have developed into what they are today (for better or worse). IMO they also grew (for want of a better term) whilst any competition they may have had at the time faltered.

The pie is probably bigger than it was when GW started but a lot more products and companies are grabbing their small slice.

I wonder if when looking at the metrics allowing for the expanded market if more people are actually joining the hobby or it's simply a case of higher revenues to cost. I haven't looked at the numbers, but I almost feel like that would need to be answered succinctly before any thought of a new industry leader reaching GW's size could actually occur.

 Ruberu wrote:
I've been involved with GW for about 15 years now. We just got a GW store in my area about 2 years ago. I was talking to the new store owner the other day and he told me that they have plans to open up 3-4 more stores in my area, I am confused now!?! I agree that GW is on a downwards spiral but how in the hell are they going to open 3 more stores in my little area. The gaming community in my area is large but not that large. So this almost feels like an attempt to spread the word of their products to maybe attracted new customers. All I have to say is alittle too late GW, I am going to finish the armies I have but will be done after that. I have already moved to other paints becasue the resent batch of GW paint is too watered down and drys up way too fast for the cost.

You have some GW stores in your area to soak up the "hhhobby" dollar. They do this by undercutting your local game store's crowd, then as they push the envelope and continue to change and morph business practices and eventually suck the life out of your local gaming community. Most of the time it will happen because "all the cool kidz are going over to the "New" GW store, but behind the scenes, these stores are in direct competition with each other and with your LGS for the crowd.

They have a.. rather stringent... sales target. Your "New store" doesn't know it yet, but they are living under the gun. They don't make sales, the one and two man stores of GW fame die a silent death in the excuse of "Expanding the gaming community to other areas" and they "perform a summery execution, (ala commissar style), because of the failure" on the floundering store, and either relocate the personnel, fire their butts, or redirect the store to another location. GW is a suck company to work for on a good day, and it takes a pretty intense sort to keep it from going under in their way of "Sales".

You are programmed from the moment you go in the store, to the moment you leave the store and ask yourself, "What just happened, I just dropped 400 bucks on a 1780 pt army...."

They are "spreading the word" more or less by carpet bombing your area with some 1-2 man stores to soak up the sales from several different directions. They are on a downward spiral, because of the tactics used, and the desperation in which they are moving. It is easier to kill the weak store in a few months to a year, and keep the strong one going, as you change areas. Not much overhead, liquidation needed, or loss, especially if the store in question is in a strip mall with a yearly lease.

What GW does when it moves into a town is not undercutting, which implies they offer their products cheaper than their competitors. Their competitors usually undercut GW. They do however muscle out other stores with better stock availability - especially now that so much is direct only and it's so hard for stores to stock GW stuff, but this only works if said store makes most of its money from GW which is a rarity these days.

 -Loki- wrote:
What GW does when it moves into a town is not undercutting, which implies they offer their products cheaper than their competitors. Their competitors usually undercut GW. They do however muscle out other stores with better stock availability - especially now that so much is direct only and it's so hard for stores to stock GW stuff, but this only works if said store makes most of its money from GW which is a rarity these days.

That and every store around that GW suddenly has mysterious supply issues as it has been reported many times.

Well my local gw store stocks the online orders only stuff and the manager has claimed to many since they opened that they will have forgeworld on the shelf within a month because theyer a gw store. When I called up there last january they acted like I was talking crazy.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
What GW does when it moves into a town is not undercutting, which implies they offer their products cheaper than their competitors. Their competitors usually undercut GW. They do however muscle out other stores with better stock availability - especially now that so much is direct only and it's so hard for stores to stock GW stuff, but this only works if said store makes most of its money from GW which is a rarity these days.

That and every store around that GW suddenly has mysterious supply issues as it has been reported many times.

Still, in times of one-man-stores with no gaming area but aggressive sales behavior, a GW store should have serious trouble now to attract customers from a FLGS.

Like having the flier book on the shelf when no one else may because gw wont sell it to the flgs?

 Quientin wrote:
Like having the flier book on the shelf when no one else may because gw wont sell it to the flgs?

Maybe, but a FLGS has about a thousand things that a GW store won't... paint options, brush options, non-GW terrain, soda, discounts, etc. I find it hard to believe that a GW store is going to put a dent in the community at any decent FLGS. Sales? Maybe. But all a FLGS needs to do is show a hint of longevity and the GW store will move out in a year when their borderline-poverty stricken single employee can't make their sales number because they're only open 40 hours a week and he's not allowed to offer any discounts, tournaments, or opinions.

AFAIK TSR did not have shops, so that element of the thread is off topic.

 Wayshuba wrote:

 Las wrote:
I agree with the notion that it will be a huge blow to the community if GW goes under especially considering the example of TSR. I mean, it's basically impossible to play D&D these days.

You're correct. It is almost impossible to play D&D as written by TSR. If it wasn't for WotC, or more properly, Peter Adkinson's love of D&D, it would have been history as the company was in such bad shape it wasn't a good buy - even at pennies on the dollar. However, WotC had the cash as was able to pick up and save the brand because of one fact - Peter Adkinson loved D&D.

If GW does collapse - who has the cash in the industry to pick them up? People forget that GW has a tremendous amount of assets as a manufacturer and their is no one close to their size. So, does 40k have a Peter Adkinson out there, willing to make a bad buy in order to save a brand they love???

And, if you think it can't happen, you may want to read the story of WordPerfect Corporation and Wang Corporation to see how a small $500 million company (WordPerfect) caused a $51 billion dollar company (Wang) to disappear from existence in less than a year.

Robbin Williams?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If people want to protest the prices with some hope of an effect, I suggest the following method.

Whenever you buy a non-GW product, write an email to GW saying you have bought X because it is cheaper than their product Y. Enclose a copy of your receipt.

Clearly this only really applies to substitution products. GW won't give a feth if you buy two complete armies for DBA and two sets of the rules instead of a Knight Titan. But they might care if you bought a Gundam to use as a Knight Titan.

That sounds like a good way to see you name brought up during the next big GW IP/copyright trial!

I would like to see GW take on Bandai for selling toy giant robot kits.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Clearly this only really applies to substitution products. GW won't give a f**k if you buy two complete armies for DBA and two sets of the rules instead of a Knight Titan. But they might care if you bought a Gundam to use as a Knight Titan.

What they have also set themselves up for is that since they no longer hold "official" GW tournaments we can pretty much play what we want of competitor product so playing a Gundam may not be all that far off.


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 -Loki- wrote:
What GW does when it moves into a town is not undercutting, which implies they offer their products cheaper than their competitors. Their competitors usually undercut GW. They do however muscle out other stores with better stock availability - especially now that so much is direct only and it's so hard for stores to stock GW stuff, but this only works if said store makes most of its money from GW which is a rarity these days.

At first glance I was tempted to agree but I found the "new" stores also carry "basic" stuff and most vehicles they do not.
They were VERY quick to point out that I can order there and pick-up for "free" but they have removed another reason for buying there: when someone wants that model "now" they are of no use, might as well order online.

I have a local store that FAR surpasses the GW store and they also carry Forgeworld stuff, they really put them to shame.
It does help when they are walking distance of 2 universities and a college further down the road to dictate some terms.

It will be interesting what their next wave of "death-throes" they attempt will be.

^meeplemart?