Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 illuknisaa wrote:
Did gw really nerf trukks?

In 4th dex trukks are basically so bad that they should give extra points if you field them. Now they are worse.

Forgive me, how did they nerf them? Is that where they reduce them by 5 points, make it easier for trukk boyz to get into combat before they break, make it so they don't blow up 2/3 of the time when they are glanced to death, made it so they downgrade 1/6 pens to glances, and made boarding planks, wreckin' balls, and grot riggers better? Is that what you meant?

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 Mumblez wrote:
Pre-ordered my warboss edition!

And so the cycle continues....

I pre-ordered mine as well, I don't mind the investment considering the last codex was from fourth, this might have to do till 10th Edition .

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


"If you have trouble with a type of unit, you didn't plan to fail, you failed to plan. "
...Is perhaps the most meaningless thing I've read today, and I went on yahoo news comments... It literally has no application to what we were talking about, but it does make you sound really sharp there Sun Tzu.

On the contrary, it is very applicable to issues with AV14 as a whole topic . I've seen countless people whinge about X unit being too strong without having adequately prepared for it, case in point for 3/4 of 6th; Riptides.

In addition, there are probably two states you are either in ; 1) Not having enough counters or consideration for them, in which case complaining about AV14 is invalid and 2) Having enough counters, in which case why are you complaining about it such that it seems to not be possible altogether?

Now relative to your argument that 2) is difficult or supposedly impossible to reach, it becomes less relevant, but otherwise, it has plenty of meaning as a blanket point to these sorts of questions.

 matphat wrote:

XC18 wrote:
7th edition is focused on controlling objectives.

I was planning to change my biker deathstar into an small & cheap unit of nobz bikers (with painboy for + survivability), that will turboboost here and there all over the board to collect VP each turn for me.
Now the new codex gives me +3 cover /4+ armour/5+ FNP ? Suits me very well.
Same for the stormboyz. 2D6 run ? they can reach an objective like nobody now.

The changes on bikers and even stormboys look like nerf, but maybe that because we still want to play them like we did in previous editions.

I am pretty sure we will discover plenty of new tactics with our new codex - so don't sell your army yet... ;p

Nobz are elite still correct? Are they allowed to score as elite in 7th? I've not gotten the book yet.

7th? Any units can score (bare zooming fliers, swooping FMC, falling back units...),, heck even your bastion can score Ahah..
Granted they re not troops so they don't have 'objectif secured'.

Leerjawise wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:
Did gw really nerf trukks?

In 4th dex trukks are basically so bad that they should give extra points if you field them. Now they are worse.

Forgive me, how did they nerf them? Is that where they reduce them by 5 points, make it easier for trukk boyz to get into combat before they break, make it so they don't blow up 2/3 of the time when they are glanced to death, made it so they downgrade 1/6 pens to glances, and made boarding planks, wreckin' balls, and grot riggers better? Is that what you meant?

This is a very biased point of view, a prime example of cherry picking changes to reinforce a point of view. Trukks got better in a few ways, sure, but they also got noticeably worse in others, something you seem to have forgotten when you made this statement.

Boarding planks are great, but the other two upgrades, unless they are 5 points each, are a waste of points - who cares about IWND when "glanced to death" and "trukks" have never been used together in a sentance before your post?

Trukks explode stupendously more easily than before, despite vehicle changes in 7th, because of a loss of Ramshackle, which downgraded 2/3 of explodes to either wreck or "kareen" + explode which is more often than not an improvement. When trukks explode, they kill more boyz than before, and its definitely debatable as to whether "sometimes fail morale and sometimes beat half the unit to death and pass morale" tops "kill one for a re-roll on ld7+". Boyz inside trukks die a burney death from flamers eaasily, and trukks can no longer get KFF saves unless you put the Mek inside. Night Fight also got nerfed too, making them less survivable than before in 50% of games.

Its debatable as to whether they are better or worse, but whats not debateable is removing the awesome Ramshackle table, an example of random tables done right, with a bs 1/6 pens to glances result. One of the biggest issues I have with this codex, and which many others seem to agree with, is its uninspired design. A 6+ downgrade is way less enjoyable than the old ramshackle table, which was the most orky thing in the codex after the SAG

Is it true? Is the KFF really getting weaker? It's been getting weaker with every edition. There's one rule book that confers its protection as long as you are 6' away form another unit inside the bubble (not 6' away from the mek), but that's from the way-back. I'm still looking forward to seeing a new codex, but I am beginning to be more excited about the months after, when people figure out the better ways to use it.

 The Good Green wrote:
Is it true? Is the KFF really getting weaker? It's been getting weaker with every edition. There's one rule book that confers its protection as long as you are 6' away form another unit inside the bubble (not 6' away from the mek), but that's from the way-back. I'm still looking forward to seeing a new codex, but I am beginning to be more excited about the months after, when people figure out the better ways to use it.

KFF covers models (not units) within 6" with a 5++ bubble when disembarked from a transport. When embarked on a transport, it only confers 5++ upon the vehicle upon which you are embarked. When embarked, it does not confer the 5++ to the occupants of the vehicle, only to the vehicle itself, so the occupants cannot claim the KFF save against template weapons while embarked.

KFF also cannot be used in close combat.

Really it's only going to be usable when the Big Mek is either on foot or on a bike, and even then I think it's only going to be useful on a bike. It's almost not worth the points cost.

The KFF can also be put on a Morkanaut, which may be a worthwhile platform for it. It's got a big base, 5HP and 13/13/12 armor.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

On the contrary, it is very applicable to issues with AV14 as a whole topic . I've seen countless people whinge about X unit being too strong without having adequately prepared for it, case in point for 3/4 of 6th; Riptides.

In addition, there are probably two states you are either in ; 1) Not having enough counters or consideration for them, in which case complaining about AV14 is invalid and 2) Having enough counters, in which case why are you complaining about it such that it seems to not be possible altogether?

Now relative to your argument that 2) is difficult or supposedly impossible to reach, it becomes less relevant, but otherwise, it has plenty of meaning as a blanket point to these sorts of questions.

You're incredibly off base and Land Raiders are coming back and yes, they've traditionally hosed Orks pretty bad. And now they've lost more options to crack them instead of gaining them. And you're "whinging" bit needs to stop. Valid complaints are valid complaints and not every army has equal capabilities in overcoming certain units because they are overpowered. The game is broken as crap and the books are not on the same power level. This is not new and being incredibly reductive and borderline rude about it isn't helping this discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streamdragon wrote:
The KFF can also be put on a Morkanaut, which may be a worthwhile platform for it. It's got a big base, 5HP and 13/13/12 armor.

A Stompa + KFF + Little Meks is incredibly hard to kill. Whether or not it makes it's points back is a separate issue.

 streamdragon wrote:
The KFF can also be put on a Morkanaut, which may be a worthwhile platform for it. It's got a big base, 5HP and 13/13/12 armor.

If you were using Kans and Dreads this could make sense

Does a KFF Morkanaught produce a bubble? Or just 5++ for itself?

6" from the hull

I just got permission from my gaming group to keep using the 4th Ed. codex. Either till we decide that the new dex isn't mostly worse, or until the end of time. Which ever comes first.

Makes the whole thing feel quite a bit better.

 matphat wrote:
I just got permission from my gaming group to keep using the 4th Ed. codex. Either till we decide that the new dex isn't mostly worse, or until the end of time. Which ever comes first.

Makes the whole thing feel quite a bit better.

Grats. I'll be waiting and seeing how it goes first before I go down that route but these leaks certainly have me shaking my head at how GW could fudge up so many things in the old book given that it's 3 bloody editions old.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

On the contrary, it is very applicable to issues with AV14 as a whole topic . I've seen countless people whinge about X unit being too strong without having adequately prepared for it, case in point for 3/4 of 6th; Riptides.

In addition, there are probably two states you are either in ; 1) Not having enough counters or consideration for them, in which case complaining about AV14 is invalid and 2) Having enough counters, in which case why are you complaining about it such that it seems to not be possible altogether?

Now relative to your argument that 2) is difficult or supposedly impossible to reach, it becomes less relevant, but otherwise, it has plenty of meaning as a blanket point to these sorts of questions.

You're incredibly off base and Land Raiders are coming back and yes, they've traditionally hosed Orks pretty bad. And now they've lost more options to crack them instead of gaining them. And you're "whinging" bit needs to stop. Valid complaints are valid complaints and not every army has equal capabilities in overcoming certain units because they are overpowered. The game is broken as crap and the books are not on the same power level. This is not new and being incredibly reductive and borderline rude about it isn't helping this discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streamdragon wrote:
The KFF can also be put on a Morkanaut, which may be a worthwhile platform for it. It's got a big base, 5HP and 13/13/12 armor.

A Stompa + KFF + Little Meks is incredibly hard to kill. Whether or not it makes it's points back is a separate issue.

Well the changes have been made, and what are you going to do about it? Complain and get stuck in negativity or adapt?

Do you even play Orks?

Well the changes have been made, and what are you going to do about it? Complain and get stuck in negativity or adapt?

Theres also option C, sell and go play either another army or another game.

This is a very valid option, and its up to the individuals who play Orks to decide whether they enjoy the new playstyles and whether the new book lives up to expectations, or not.

I know I'm certainly thinking of how many Infinity armies I can buy by parting with my collection, thats for sure.

 TedNugent wrote:

 The Good Green wrote:
Is it true? Is the KFF really getting weaker? It's been getting weaker with every edition. There's one rule book that confers its protection as long as you are 6' away form another unit inside the bubble (not 6' away from the mek), but that's from the way-back. I'm still looking forward to seeing a new codex, but I am beginning to be more excited about the months after, when people figure out the better ways to use it.

KFF covers models (not units) within 6" with a 5++ bubble when disembarked from a transport. When embarked on a transport, it only confers 5++ upon the vehicle upon which you are embarked. When embarked, it does not confer the 5++ to the occupants of the vehicle, only to the vehicle itself, so the occupants cannot claim the KFF save against template weapons while embarked.

KFF also cannot be used in close combat.

Really it's only going to be usable when the Big Mek is either on foot or on a bike, and even then I think it's only going to be useful on a bike. It's almost not worth the points cost.

The Big Mek KFF definitely has a purpose. This also addresses a post I made a few pages back that a lot of people took exception to:

I played a few 7th ed games with a friend who plays IG a few weeks back, and we used the new KFF rules, as they had just been released in WD that week. I chained together 3 KFF Big Meks, with the limit of their bubbles touching. It made a cohesive KFF bubble that stretched 3 feet wide across the table and 1 foot deep. In that bubble I was able to place two 30-boy blobs in front of the Meks, and three 20-boy mobs in the back. Each big mek was joined to a unit, with the two 30-boy blobs also getting IA8 Painbosses, which it turns out are exactly the same as new-codex Painboyz (it's a strange time to be playing Orks, right now).

Granted, it's against IG shooting, which isn't great, but I was averaging a loss of 3-4 boyz per turn - not from each unit, but in all. The two saves, (5+ FNP & 5++ KFF) really do keep boys alive. I was also able to stretch unit coherency basically to its limit while keeping all my boyz models in the bubble - remember, the boyz models don't have to be entirely within the KFF, just in 6" range of it. Same goes for vehicles - if the rear corner of a BW, or a sliver of the base of a Dred is within that 6" bubble, the save still confers. He was throwing down pieplates and still not taking off more than a few per turn. I was able to keep unit coherency so stretched out that when he sent his Cyclops to suicide at my big blobs, the blast only took out one boy, which was pretty amusing. If we had been using new Mob Rule, none of my boyz mobz would have had to take a check, and once they got into CC, having five ICs to move around and provide FNP saves and extra rolls, they wouldn't have fallen back either.

Yes, you can go up against lists that can take care of that, but unless you're up against Super Death Stars it's very hard to whittle down a 30+ mob that gets FNP and 5++ (I definitely say this from experience). I'm considering putting together a list that gets rid of the 3rd Big Mek and takes a Morkanaut, extending that 3 foot bubble to about 3.5 feet, while putting 3 regular Meks and 3 Burnas inside it with meks keeping the Morka alive and the Burnas for a nasty surprise once they get to the enemy (you don't need to assault burnas out of a Morka to fry dudes up with burnas or KMBs).

The one thing that really hurts my playstyle is shoota boy point increase, as I would take all-shoota mobs in 6th. Now, I'm thinking of running two big 30-blobs of shootas in the front line of the KFF while keeping my 20-strong choppa mobz in the back, with a bunch out of LOS due to the Morka. I'll proxy in a coffee can for a game or two so I can see how that works. Loss of Cybork really does hurt, though, and I'm thinking of replacing my old Nob trukk mob with either MANz or Flash Gitz.

Believe it or not, I can both complain AND adapt.

I'm that good.

Guh....first started out with Orks back in 4th and this new codex is like a punch in the gut.

So much chopped out and so much just screwed up for me to even comprehend.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


"If you have trouble with a type of unit, you didn't plan to fail, you failed to plan. "
...Is perhaps the most meaningless thing I've read today, and I went on yahoo news comments... It literally has no application to what we were talking about, but it does make you sound really sharp there Sun Tzu.

On the contrary, it is very applicable to issues with AV14 as a whole topic . I've seen countless people whinge about X unit being too strong without having adequately prepared for it, case in point for 3/4 of 6th; Riptides.

In addition, there are probably two states you are either in ; 1) Not having enough counters or consideration for them, in which case complaining about AV14 is invalid and 2) Having enough counters, in which case why are you complaining about it such that it seems to not be possible altogether?

Now relative to your argument that 2) is difficult or supposedly impossible to reach, it becomes less relevant, but otherwise, it has plenty of meaning as a blanket point to these sorts of questions.

You know you're not making actual coherent sentences? I know you're putting several words together and thinking to yourself that what you've done sounds smart, it's just that nothing from their combination is resulting in anything you just said having any sort of point or pertinence to what we were discussing before you decided to show up and 'educate' us.

Theres some redeeming features WarOne. For instance, the new Mek Guns are pretty cool.

it's very hard to whittle down a 30+ mob that gets FNP and 5++

I used to use Painbosses this time last year. Their only real weakness was being able to take just one, and only via alliance with Dread Mob.

They make boyz mobs dead hard.

 44Ronin wrote:
[
Well the changes have been made, and what are you going to do about it? Complain and get stuck in negativity or adapt?

Do you even play Orks?

So you understand, we can express our dissatisfaction with a product for a line we are financially invested in when we perceive that product to be inferior. That's how consumerism works.

Also, discussing our dissatisfaction with the various elements of this product, for this line, on a forum dedicated to these products in general and in a thread dedicated to this product specifically, is totally cool as well.

Some of us will adapt, some of us will adapt to another army and some, by the sound of it, will adapt to another game or just leave altogether.

The nature of these forums is to come together and discuss, not all sing from the same hymn sheet.

We have received or are being offered what we believe to be an inferior product for something we are already invested in, we aren't happy about it, we get to state that and discuss why.

That's how this works. How you deal with it is your own business.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 44Ronin wrote:
[
Well the changes have been made, and what are you going to do about it? Complain and get stuck in negativity or adapt?

Do you even play Orks?

So you understand, we can express our dissatisfaction with a product for a line we are financially invested in when we perceive that product to be inferior.

Sounds like a boring hobby you have there.

Also, discussing our dissatisfaction with the various elements of this product, for this line, on a forum dedicated to these products in general and in a thread dedicated to this product specifically, is totally cool as well.

That depends on how rational and fair the comments are.

The nature of these forums is to come together and discuss, not all sing from the same hymn sheet.

You mean constantly focus on the negatives? Yeah it gets old.

We have received or are being offered what we believe to be an inferior product for something we are already invested in, we aren't happy about it, we get to state that and discuss why.

That's how this works. How you deal with it is your own business.

I don't understand why people would want to use the old codex. Change is good and fun.

As someone with equally large tyranid and ork armies, I'm much much more happier with this release.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Theres some redeeming features WarOne. For instance, the new Mek Guns are pretty cool.

it's very hard to whittle down a 30+ mob that gets FNP and 5++

I used to use Painbosses this time last year. Their only real weakness was being able to take just one, and only via alliance with Dread Mob.

They make boyz mobs dead hard.

And now you can take as many as you want.

Can I say this as an Ork player of 2 decades or is my positive comment invalid before even making it (cause people here hate that) ?

I love the mob rule change. It changes Orks from mindless zombies taken in cut and paste mobs of 30 by default, into something that is FAR FAR more in line with the fluff.

I don't care if it hurts people, now that they have to actually think about morale factors.

and lets not forget, it helps smaller elite units., esp bikers and MANz who can literally laugh off the wounds. When you attach a painboy to a MANz unit that's +4 to wound and then you need to fail +2 save and then fail +5 FNP. Bikers it's 5+ to wound and then you've got your chance at a save.

The elite smaller units needed this ability not to leg it. I'll take the wounds rather than getting run down any day.

 44Ronin wrote:
You mean constantly focus on the negatives? Yeah it gets old.

Are you going to adapt to the negativity or are you going to sit around and whine about it?

 44Ronin wrote:
cheer up, the nerfs are fluffy if you apply the fluff from a certain angle and anyone who isn't happy is a dirty whinger!

Go team Venture!

 44Ronin wrote:

Well the changes have been made, and what are you going to do about it? Complain and get stuck in negativity or adapt?

Do you even play Orks?

Hooray, more reductive arguments!... ...and half my post was about trying a new strategy, but sure... ignore that part for convenience...

Nope, have friends that do. Having a tepid, vanilla book, like Tyranids and Guard, does worse for the game than make it better. And I did adapt. Would you care for a game of Infinity, Malifaux, Warmachine, or Freeblades? I play four games instead of one now!

 44Ronin wrote:
Can I say this as an Ork player of 2 decades or is my positive comment invalid before even making it (cause people here hate that) ?

I love the mob rule change. It changes Orks from mindless zombies taken in cut and paste mobs of 30 by default, into something that is FAR FAR more in line with the fluff.

I don't care if it hurts people, now that they have to actually think about morale factors.

and lets not forget, it helps smaller elite units., esp bikers and MANz who can literally laugh off the wounds. When you attach a painboy to a MANz unit that's +4 to wound and then you need to fail +2 save and then fail +5 FNP. Bikers it's 5+ to wound and then you've got your chance at a save.

The elite smaller units needed this ability not to leg it. I'll take the wounds rather than getting run down any day.

I disagree maybe for elites it helos but it screws our boys. Trukk boys and dwindled unit of boys are evn more susceptible to fleeing. Nobs are challenged and killed, no eavy armor even, and then you have to roll a 1.
You want the rules to reflect fluff, well Gw is so good at that...
A trukk of raging ork competing with each other who can get to the front lines first to do the first killing shows up, fights, loses its nob and 2 boyz then tries to run away and gets destroyed.... yep makes total sense.