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I think the continuity of the Terminator franchise is firmly heading in the 'Highlander" direction. It's a muddled mess.

Of course you can ignore the third movie, as it was really just a re-skin of the second movie.

I liked Termination 4 because we finally got out of the played chase formula and FINALLY got to see the future war they've hinted at since the original. The third one was just another rehash of the first two. Although it added some John Connor back story elements which filled in how he had the means to one day take command of the Resistance.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I think the continuity of the Terminator franchise is firmly heading in the 'Highlander" direction. It's a muddled mess.

Of course you can ignore the third movie, as it was really just a re-skin of the second movie.

True, the plotting of the third film followed the second, and did everything worse resulting in a bad movie... but at least it ended with things different to how they began. The film began with the war prevented, and the proceeded to tell us the war was still inevitable. Not a great change, but a change none the less.

The fourth film, though, was really the true franchise film because it changed nothing. It was like an episode of a TV series, new characters came in and met the old characters, stuff happened and by the end the main characters are unaffected and everything is back where it started, all ready for another pointless episode that changes nothing.


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 WarAngel wrote:
I liked Termination 4 because we finally got out of the played chase formula and FINALLY got to see the future war they've hinted at since the original. The third one was just another rehash of the first two. Although it added some John Connor back story elements which filled in how he had the means to one day take command of the Resistance.

For all its problems, I could have forgiven the fourth movie if only it had given us the future war we'd been promised in the first and second films. But instead we got crazy CGI monster robots with stupidly impractical weapons and little interest in, you know, crushing puny humans. Robots that shoot robot motor bikes instead of like, guided missiles. And the end scene where the new Arnie robot stopped being a terminator that, like terminated, and instead was happy just throwing people around the room and not killing them because the script said they couldn't die.

 sebster wrote:
And the end scene where the new Arnie robot stopped being a terminator that, like terminated, and instead was happy just throwing people around the room and not killing them because the script said they couldn't die.

Perhaps this will be the movie where John Connor does get killed, as is canon. At that point they can actually start telling a new story in that universe.

 Soladrin wrote:
Not really sure what you would expect from a future war movie, unless you just want 90 minutes of pew pew robots.

A continuation of the story is what I'd want to see. Yes future robots and all that will be cool on its own to see, but I want to see it progress beyond "let's see if we can come up with a new idea........ on how to send a "killer" robot back in time to snuff out john Conner. Ideas? "

That's getting really fracking tired like going on 10 years now.

Isn't it more like 25 years now?

Besides, I was never that into Terminator for the story, I would watch it for the pew pew robots, thats about it.

I just want to see them assault skynets core and have an epic battle with plasma rifles.

For those who want to see the future war stuff, I suggest trying to track down the old, out of print Terminator comics by NOW! comics. They were set after the events of the first movie (sorta... Reese went back in time, but Skynet was still a threat because reasons) and involved a resistance cell in Florida. They avoided having anyone from the movies show up (John Connor appears at one point, but this was before T2 was filmed) but Kyle Reese's kid brother is a character. Overall, it wasn't bad. A highlight was the two-part stand-alone story where a terminator heads to Brazil to destroy the rain forest (thus depriving the world of oxygen and killing all the humans) and is opposed by a tribe of natives. The series ended with a five-issue story (with fantastic art) about the final assault on Skynet's mainframe in the old NORAD complex.

It's worth a look.

Mmmnope. I want a movie not a comic.

See, I liked T2 a lot, and T3&4 sucked majorly - For a few moments, I was actually really excited by this trailer, as what looked like a direct sequel to T2.
But from about midway through, it's definitely fake, and that makes me sad. :(

 WarAngel wrote:
I liked Termination 4 because we finally got out of the played chase formula and FINALLY got to see the future war they've hinted at since the original. The third one was just another rehash of the first two. Although it added some John Connor back story elements which filled in how he had the means to one day take command of the Resistance.

Future war where everyone is still fighting with M60 machineguns and M4 assault rifles.

Salvation was just a rehash of the first in reverse, Marcus was cryo frozen into the future instead of time traveling back in time. And it feelt rather convenient he had matching blood type aswell matching organs.

T3 is by far the worst in the series, T4 was a small step in the right direction, but not the size it could have been. Kinda how the AVP movies dragged down both the Predator franchise and the Alien franchise with mediocrity.

Bishop F Gantry wrote:
Kinda how the AVP movies dragged down both the Predator franchise and the Alien franchise with mediocrity.

Alien 3 was fairly poor, and Alien: Resurrection was measurably worse. They came 12 and 7 years, respectively, before AvP.

 Ouze wrote:

Bishop F Gantry wrote:
Kinda how the AVP movies dragged down both the Predator franchise and the Alien franchise with mediocrity.

Alien 3 was fairly poor, and Alien: Resurrection was measurably worse. They came 12 and 7 years, respectively, before AvP.

I wouldnt say Alien3 was poor, it went back towards more horror oriented than Alien2's action oriented, esentially it was a rehash of Alien1, horror wise Alien3 is superior, overall Alien2 is the better movie.

Alien4 the hidden jewel of manure, good cast, amazing looking sets ruined by some overacting, someone being slightly to inspired by Giger in the monster department, there was alot wrong with Alien4 mediocre wasent one of them.

Xenomorphs swimming is still one of the best scenes in the entire franchise, easily up there with Kane's chestburst

Alien 3 could have been a lot better, but the thing that I really liked about it was the concept of what could be considered human rubbish, lowest of the low, fighting to the last to bring down a menace to humanity, with no one to know about or witness their heroics.

 Ouze wrote:
Perhaps this will be the movie where John Connor does get killed, as is canon. At that point they can actually start telling a new story in that universe.

Thing is, once you start moving away from John Connor and away from time travel, then what you've really got is just humans fighting robots in a future wasteland. Which is awesome, of course, but then all the Terminator name is doing is putting limitations on what you can do - better to just start a new setting at that point, I think.


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 Ouze wrote:
Alien 3 was fairly poor, and Alien: Resurrection was measurably worse. They came 12 and 7 years, respectively, before AvP.

Alien 3 and 4 were both dreadful movies, but they at least kept the ambition of the first two films. Alien 3 might have ended up a muddle that somehow managed to be boring, and Alien 4 might have ended camp and just kind of weird, but as Bishop F Gantry says, the problem wasn't mediocrity. They were at least films made by quality directors who were trying to make some kind of art, even if they failed.

But with AVP films... basically FOX handed the reigns over to a guy who was recognised as making franchise schlock that reliably came in on time, on budget... and he gave us exactly that - it was Frankenstein vs the Mummy for a new generation. Requiem didn't even bother with a director as qualified as they, they handed control over to a couple of brothers who had worked purely in visual effects until that point, because truly no-one involved gave a gak anymore.

Of course, then we got Prometheus, where they returned to an A-list director with a whole lot of storytelling ambition and that was probably the worst film of the lot, so...

 sebster wrote:
Of course, then we got Prometheus, where they returned to an A-list director with a whole lot of storytelling ambition and that was probably the worst film of the lot, so...

Are you saying Prometheus is worse than AVP and AVP:R? It had some gaping flaws, but it also had some great moments as well. I would take it over 3 and 4 just for the Michael Fassbender's performance.

 Ahtman wrote:
Are you saying Prometheus is worse than AVP and AVP:R? It had some gaping flaws, but it also had some great moments as well. I would take it over 3 and 4 just for the Michael Fassbender's performance.

I was exaggerating, or speaking loosely, or something like that You're right that Prometheus is nowhere near as bad as AVP and Requiem.

In my post to Ouze, what I was trying to say before I basically forgot to say it, is that I used to argue that AVP and Requiem were worse, because now the Alien franchise had been relegated to just another monster movie genre, the ambition to make proper sci-fi was gone, and while 3 and 4 were terrible movies at least they were trying. But with AVP and Requiem they weren't trying any more, the Alien was now just like zombies and Freddy and anything else, cranking out a movie every couple of years so people could watch and laugh as the cast gets slaughtered. Then Prometheus got made, and so it looked like they were trying again, so my concern didn't pan out. But it was still bad, and so maybe Hollywood is incapable of making a decent Alien film now, and is being incapable of making a good Alien film any different to not trying?

You were right the first time. AVP movies are pretty bad because they weren't trying. Prometheus is worse because they were trying--you can feel the effort, the potential--and they made a movie that insults the audience'sintelligence even more than AVPR ever could.

Watching the making of features on the Bluray you can tell where Prometheus went off the wheels. Up until Lindelof was brought in to arbitrarily rewrite it to make the studios feel better the project was going fairly smoothly. I don't just blame him, I also blame Scott for listening to him. Even in the documentary when it gets to [Lindelof] showing up he just about literally says "well I thought it would be great to remove all Alien references and leave no answers to things".

How did this wind up going from Terminator to the Aliens franchise?

I still hold that Alien 3 is actually a decent movie and what really could have saved it is if they'd just changed the characters and not had any returning cast members. Pretty much all of the movie's problems would have been solved that way.

As for Terminator, is it so wrong that I would like a 90 minute movie of people running around burned out buildings shooting at robots? I will admit that I kind of liked Terminator 4. It was a step in the right direction and is arguably what T3 should have been. Still, I'd have liked something more grimdark like the flashback scenes in the first movie. A proper future war movie should be dark, gritty, and slightly depressing. The movie shouldn't end with any real hope of salvation for humanity. It should be about humanity's struggle to simply survive to continue the fight.

I'm a little surprised though that they haven't explored the idea of having some of the Terminators actively rebel against Skynet on their own. I mean, they are fully sentient. Why not have some become fully sapient? It might at least be interesting to have some fully self aware Terminators side with humanity.

it's a mystery how Mr. Lindelof finds work; as the man is a one man gak factory.

 Ahtman wrote:
Watching the making of features on the Bluray you can tell where Prometheus went off the wheels. Up until Lindelof was brought in to arbitrarily rewrite it to make the studios feel better the project was going fairly smoothly. I don't just blame him, I also blame Scott for listening to him. Even in the documentary when it gets to [Lindelof] showing up he just about literally says "well I thought it would be great to remove all Alien references and leave no answers to things".

I thought the references to Alien were taken out under studio request?

 Ouze wrote:
it's a mystery how Mr. Lindelof finds work; as the man is a one man gak factory.

I feel like he single handily caused Prometheus to suck. I'm glad he won't be on the sequel.

 Barzam wrote:
I still hold that Alien 3 is actually a decent movie and what really could have saved it is if they'd just changed the characters and not had any returning cast members. Pretty much all of the movie's problems would have been solved that way.

The bulk of the movie would still consist of uninteresting people talking, and the climax would still consist of people running around corridors closing doors.

As for Terminator, is it so wrong that I would like a 90 minute movie of people running around burned out buildings shooting at robots? I will admit that I kind of liked Terminator 4.

That's what I wanted out of T4, and if we'd got it I probably would have forgiven all the other nonsense entirely. But unfortunately instead of getting the taut, relatively believable action scenes similar to the first two movies, we got giant robots that shot robot motor cycles at people and other stupid nonsense. It was very typical '00s movie making - we got a massive CGI and unlimited imaginations so let's make up the whackiest war machines ever nonsense.

I'm a little surprised though that they haven't explored the idea of having some of the Terminators actively rebel against Skynet on their own. I mean, they are fully sentient. Why not have some become fully sapient? It might at least be interesting to have some fully self aware Terminators side with humanity.

That was a major plot in the tv series, and opened up a lot of good ideas.

Blending the two ideas could be very interesting. Have rebel terminators coming back from a time after the rebellion, perhaps to aid the war effort and prevent John Connor from unleashing viral warfare on the machines that would allow victory, but would also eliminate computers entirely. The few remaining rogues had severed their net connection, and thus are functionally immune to the virus unless exposed to a broadcasting victim. The entire program is set from Future War into the aftermath of the Future War.

The focus could shift from the survival of humans to the survival of humanity, and a victory without genocide (cybercide?) being the ultimate goal.

I'm now getting this awesome idea of watching a T-1,000 losing structural integrity under the effects of the virus, and puddling or blowing away before some bemused humans.

 sebster wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
Watching the making of features on the Bluray you can tell where Prometheus went off the wheels. Up until Lindelof was brought in to arbitrarily rewrite it to make the studios feel better the project was going fairly smoothly. I don't just blame him, I also blame Scott for listening to him. Even in the documentary when it gets to [Lindelof] showing up he just about literally says "well I thought it would be great to remove all Alien references and leave no answers to things".

I thought the references to Alien were taken out under studio request?

Initially I had thought that others made to much of his 'contribution', but when I watched the making of features on the bluray there is a part where they talk about how he was brought in at the studious request because the original writer was still fairly unknown, and that even though everyone liked the script, they wanted a 'named' screenwriter to work on it. I can't quite remember the exact quote, but I remember being a bit stunned by his remarks and how obvious the demarcation line was between before he was there and after. I could find it, but I'm not sure I want to sit through it again at this point. On the other hand I think I might watch Hearts of Darkness, the documentary about the making of Apocalypse Now, again tonight.

Read the original script of Prometheus and you will weep tears of pure nerdery for what could have been. I know I did.

The time machine component in Terminator has always interested me. Why not just send loads of Terminators back to the same time frame over the years. It wouldn't matter if they did this over a period of decades in the future as they'd all appear at the same time in the past. I guess you wouldn't have a movie, but meh.

They really need to clarify their time travel in the Terminator franchise. I've never understood why only organic material, or things wrapped in organic material can go back in time.

I also was much intrigued by the rebel Terminator faction in the TV show. I think that episode (well, 2 technically) were maybe the best of the series. When I think of why I am sad the show was cancelled, I think that one single storyline is paramount as to why - we'll never find out where that was going. Also the, you know, alternate timeline they spawned, sure.

 Ahtman wrote:
Initially I had thought that others made to much of his 'contribution', but when I watched the making of features on the bluray there is a part where they talk about how he was brought in at the studious request because the original writer was still fairly unknown, and that even though everyone liked the script, they wanted a 'named' screenwriter to work on it. I can't quite remember the exact quote, but I remember being a bit stunned by his remarks and how obvious the demarcation line was between before he was there and after. I could find it, but I'm not sure I want to sit through it again at this point. On the other hand I think I might watch Hearts of Darkness, the documentary about the making of Apocalypse Now, again tonight.

Interesting. I will have to check that out. Thanks mate.


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 Ouze wrote:
I also was much intrigued by the rebel Terminator faction in the TV show. I think that episode (well, 2 technically) were maybe the best of the series. When I think of why I am sad the show was cancelled, I think that one single storyline is paramount as to why - we'll never find out where that was going. Also the, you know, alternate timeline they spawned, sure.

That show brought in a lot of really great ideas, it's really a shame that they spent so much of the second series just treading water.