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Well I have to agree, I have been accompanying Warhammer for years, though only recently I started collecting my first army.
But as a new player all the talk around the GW just leaves me dishearten about the future, yes GW has terrible practices and needs some reform, but I would hate something bad to happen to Warhammer since their fate is pretty much connected and I doubt any company big enough to buy GW is any better than GW.

Any company big enough to buy GW's assets would be at least more competent.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
GW's vision of the 'rules' is clearly as a non-competitive framework of guidelines that allows people to have narrative games; not unlike a roleplaying game. That might explain GW's perceived apathy towards the rules. The rules are meant as guidelines and can be changed by the players at will.

No, GW's "vision" for the game is that they spend the absolute minimum amount of effort on the rules because 12 year olds begging their parents for a box of space marines probably never play the game anyway. The rules are terrible for casual play, and the whole "they're just guidelines" excuse is just that: an excuse. It's nothing more than a concession that GW doesn't give a about the quality of their products.

I think the biggest problem is that GW puts out all these ridiculous things for 40k, and people think they need to have them and use them all the time as if there's a mathhammer formula that proves they fail at life if they don't.

It is hard to argue with ++2 re-rollable invs or multi shot D weapons , math or no math.

Makumba wrote:
It is hard to argue with ++2 re-rollable invs or multi shot D weapons , math or no math.

Not if your balancing point is "will this make me lose friends?"

 Wilytank wrote:
I think the biggest problem is that GW puts out all these ridiculous things for 40k, and people think they need to have them and use them all the time as if there's a mathhammer formula that proves they fail at life if they don't.

Yeah, how dare people try to play the game for the fun strategy of trying to build the perfect winning list instead of taking weaker stuff just for the sake of having a weaker list. This is a failure by GW, not by the players.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
[ The rules are meant as guidelines and can be changed by the players at will.

$75 for a book that is just "guidelines" + $50 per codex full of guidelines and $83 worth of Escalation/Stronghold guidelines

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
[ The rules are meant as guidelines and can be changed by the players at will.

$75 for a book that is just "guidelines" + $50 per codex full of guidelines and $83 worth of Escalation/Stronghold guidelines

Dont buy expensive guidlines then. That is not GW fault. It is your fault.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
I think the biggest problem is that GW puts out all these ridiculous things for 40k, and people think they need to have them and use them all the time as if there's a mathhammer formula that proves they fail at life if they don't.

Yeah, how dare people try to play the game for the fun strategy of trying to build the perfect winning list instead of taking weaker stuff just for the sake of having a weaker list. This is a failure by GW, not by the players.

I think GW's specific failure is they assume we build lists like they seem too: a little bit of everything. If the staff armies they've shown off have proved anything, the meta they play rarely involves more than two of any unit at most.

 Swastakowey wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
[ The rules are meant as guidelines and can be changed by the players at will.

$75 for a book that is just "guidelines" + $50 per codex full of guidelines and $83 worth of Escalation/Stronghold guidelines

Dont buy expensive guidlines then. That is not GW fault. It is your fault.

How, pray tell, do I, an existing 40K player, assess the quality of these extensive documents without purchase?

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:

-Can we give GW a break?? I know they've made some stuff-ups, and possibly broken 6th and maybe the whole game. But they're trying. Without them there's no FW, no BL, no 40k.

Untrue. 40k would live on without GW, no problem. Actually, it would probably prosper even more without GW's "We are just in for the money!" policy.

My point was, if Rick and the GW team hadn't come up with the idea, everything we have and moan about today wouldn't exist. Maybe it would improve NOW, but we owe them.

Serious fail right here. We gave them millions in cash for their idea. At undeniably overpriced costs from our end. The amount of money received by them is a measure of how good their idea was. If it's starting to dwindle, well, maybe some of the bad ideas are beginning to out number the good ones. Maybe things like spending no time balancing rulesets, making the price on everything as close to unaffordable as possible, while having zero PR in any way shape of form in age ruled by the internet are some of these bad ideas businesswise. Just maybe.

I give GW what they deserve. I love the universe they've created, thus I pay my dues to them in the models I bought from them, and in my contribution as player by doing what we all do and providing people games and vice versa, telling friends to start playing, attending events, being part of the community etc. This also earns me the right to give critical criticism. And GW freaking sucks. The management of that company is by far the worst thing about the 40k hobby. Or am I not allowed an opinion because they invented the game, because just FYI whether we are allowed to voice our opinions or not GW is just as bad. In fact probably would somehow find a way to be worse.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
I think the biggest problem is that GW puts out all these ridiculous things for 40k, and people think they need to have them and use them all the time as if there's a mathhammer formula that proves they fail at life if they don't.

Yeah, how dare people try to play the game for the fun strategy of trying to build the perfect winning list instead of taking weaker stuff just for the sake of having a weaker list. This is a failure by GW, not by the players.

The crazy thing is, people get blamed for making "bad" lists even though 40k is massively a list building game. You blame the players for making bad lists that don't suit the rules, and yet the rules are designed in such a way that list building is a massive part of the game and because of the expansive nature of 40k, there's a lot of fun to be had building a list. When I used to have more free time on my hands, I'd just read through the different codices and have fun assembling different army lists from them.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
[ The rules are meant as guidelines and can be changed by the players at will.

$75 for a book that is just "guidelines" + $50 per codex full of guidelines and $83 worth of Escalation/Stronghold guidelines

Dont buy expensive guidlines then. That is not GW fault. It is your fault.

How, pray tell, do I, an existing 40K player, assess the quality of these extensive documents without purchase?

Do you not try out before you buy? Just like you do not buy a car without trying it, just like you dont buy a boat without a test drive or 2, or a bicycle or anything you buy. Test the water before diving in as the saying goes. No need to be spiteful because you didnt try it out before you buy it. There is no way you can be upset at GW for your own purchase.

Not everyone has access to a rulebook already that they can look through. Not everyone has a local GW/FLGS. Not everyone has bought a rulebook already for their bunch of friends-group who are taking up 40K.

Azreal is right here.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Not everyone has access to a rulebook already that they can look through. Not everyone has a local GW/FLGS. Not everyone has bought a rulebook already for their bunch of friends-group who are taking up 40K.

Azreal is right here.

How is that GWs fault though?

Because they write rules not worth a massive chunk of money.

It really does not have to be more complicated than that.

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
Ok, I'm the first to admit that there are things about 40k I don't like (IK, LotD as a supplement etc). But when I look at all the hate on here, all I think to myself is;
-Well if you don't like it, don't play that list e.g. If there's a Taudar monster player and you think it's spammy, don't play it if you can (this is particularly easy with the expansions)
-Can we give GW a break?? I know they've made some stuff-ups, and possibly broken 6th and maybe the whole game. But they're trying. Without them there's no FW, no BL, no 40k. So please, back off.
-If you REALLY cannot get on with the game at all, take a break. Keep up with the hobby, expand your forces maybe, but don't play until you get a new rules set you can live with.
-Not everything is screwed up. 40k is supposed to be fun, so have fun! Play to the fluff, make custom games, whatever. Just enjoy the game, or at least the aspects you love.

Instead of hating the complaints you should ask why GW is failing to properly address the concerns of its consumers, especially in light of its recent problems.

 Swastakowey wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
[ The rules are meant as guidelines and can be changed by the players at will.

$75 for a book that is just "guidelines" + $50 per codex full of guidelines and $83 worth of Escalation/Stronghold guidelines

Dont buy expensive guidlines then. That is not GW fault. It is your fault.

I feel like you kind of missed the point. Point: Calling them guidelines when you charge massive amount of money for them is just a bad excuse.

But yeah, 40k is awesome if you don't use GW's rules/guidelines and just invent your own instead. Oh, and if you buy all your models from somewhere else. Also if you just make up your own fluff, coz GW is just fickle and inconsistent with them.

But if you ignore the rules and the models and the fluff, 40k is a great game.

At the end of the day, IMO, you can have fun with 40k, but it's in spite of the rules, not because of them.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Because they write rules not worth a massive chunk of money.

It really does not have to be more complicated than that.

Then dont buy it. You wont have anything to whine about for not wasting money.

-

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
[ The rules are meant as guidelines and can be changed by the players at will.

$75 for a book that is just "guidelines" + $50 per codex full of guidelines and $83 worth of Escalation/Stronghold guidelines

Dont buy expensive guidlines then. That is not GW fault. It is your fault.

I feel like you kind of missed the point. Point: Calling them guidelines when you charge massive amount of money for them is just a bad excuse.

But yeah, 40k is awesome if you don't use GW's rules/guidelines and just invent your own instead. Oh, and if you buy all your models from somewhere else. Also if you just make up your own fluff, coz GW is just fickle and inconsistent with them.

But if you ignore the rules and the models and the fluff, 40k is a great game.

At the end of the day, IMO, you can have fun with 40k, but it's in spite of the rules, not because of them.

No all im saying is it isnt GW fault. You as a customer have every right to try before you buy. To not buy or to buy. To judge if it is worth it. You are simply there to spend money. Nothing more. They are there to sell. Nothing more. If how they sell annoys you. Dont buy. If what they sell annoys you, dont buy. Nowhere is GW to blame.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Because they write rules not worth a massive chunk of money.

It really does not have to be more complicated than that.

Then dont buy it. You wont have anything to whine about for not wasting money.

But how do I know if it is bad or not, then?

 Swastakowey wrote:
No all im saying is it isnt GW fault.

I think we are just getting in to a philosophical debate now of what it means to be at fault. GW make bad rules and charge large amounts of money for them. That's their fault. It might be the customer's fault for buying them, but that still doesn't excuse GW and doesn't absolve them of blame.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Because they write rules not worth a massive chunk of money.

It really does not have to be more complicated than that.

Then dont buy it. You wont have anything to whine about for not wasting money.

But how do I know if it is bad or not, then?

How is that GW problem again? Its not. Its your problem. Its not their fault they dont have a shop ever few miles.

I am not a director, I can still see if movies are bad or not.

I am not a rulewriter, I can still see if rules are bad or not.

GW rules cost an above average amount of money that are below average in quality. However, because they are official and widespread, they are effectively the standard and are effectively necessary if you do not only play with those who trust you enough to and you spend enough time with to make custom rules.

This is not always a common situation.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
No all im saying is it isnt GW fault.

I think we are just getting in to a philosophical debate now of what it means to be at fault. GW make bad rules and charge large amounts of money for them. That's their fault. It might be the customer's fault for buying them, but that still doesn't excuse GW and doesn't absolve them of blame.

Um yes it does. You purchased it...

 Swastakowey wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
[ The rules are meant as guidelines and can be changed by the players at will.

$75 for a book that is just "guidelines" + $50 per codex full of guidelines and $83 worth of Escalation/Stronghold guidelines

Dont buy expensive guidlines then. That is not GW fault. It is your fault.

How, pray tell, do I, an existing 40K player, assess the quality of these extensive documents without purchase?

Do you not try out before you buy?

Do you stand in a bookshop and finish a novel before you decide to buy it? Do you watch a movie in the store before you rent it?

Just like you do not buy a car without trying it, just like you dont buy a boat without a test drive or 2, or a bicycle or anything you buy.

If I need to explain to you the distinction between your examples and the matter in hand, there is no hope for your future.

Test the water before diving in as the saying goes.

That isn't a saying.

No need to be spiteful because you didnt try it out before you buy it. There is no way you can be upset at GW for your own purchase.

Well, spiteful is such an erroneous term in this context I'm not entirely sure you know what it means, and who, pray tell, is responsible for GW producing a sub par product that I should be upset with other than GW? You're correct in that nobody forces anyone to purchase anything, you're utterly wrong to try and assert that if a customer is disappointed in that purchase that they cannot ascribe blame for that disappointment to the company that fething made it!!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I am not a director, I can still see if movies are bad or not.

I am not a rulewriter, I can still see if rules are bad or not.

GW rules cost an above average amount of money that are below average in quality. However, because they are official and widespread, they are effectively the standard and are effectively necessary if you do not only play with those who trust you enough to and you spend enough time with to make custom rules.

This is not always a common situation.

Cool dont buy the DVD if the movie sucks.

Dont buy the rules if they suck.

Dont pay for over priced items. Clearly they are out of your value for money range. The blame does not fall on GW.

Also the "try before you buy" thing is a bit silly IMO, unless you have an extensive background in wargames, I don't think you're going to figure out the flaws in 40k until you've already invested time and money in to it OR if you come on a forum like this and read negative comments enough to push you away from starting in the first place.