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I never really bought the whole "Oh, the complainers are in the minority. Everyone else is forging a narrative with big ol' grins!" idea that gets put out. Most 40k players I meet have some sort of gripe with Warhammer 40,000 or GW. This isn't to say they aren't forging narratives with gak eating grins but only the most vehement GW defenders fail to recognize it's short comings. And how can't they? The problems with the company and it's games are legion. To ignore all of it is to live with your head so deep in the sand you can start brushing up against sandstone.

This isn't to say people who dislike what GW does or recognizes the faults of the shouldn't play. Far from it. There are aspects of 40k that are still quite enjoyable such as the story and the models. Few games can make a battle scene like 40k. I don't think there are very many people who play the game without enjoying something about it. I myself enjoy the models and the story. I also like assembling themed armies as it fills me with pride to hear people say, "Wow, that's cool!".

Which is why I think Swastakowey's argument is crap. The "If you don't like it, leave" argument never works because it assumes a all-or-nothing approach to the "whether one should love something despite it's faults" problem. Either you have to love everything about 40,000 (Or just shut up about it) or gtfo.

Playing within GW's "hobby" system is indeed a terrible, awful, and self-harming experience. That doesn't mean 40k is though. Use old models, kitbash, buy from FLGS/E-bay, use old rules or make up your own, etc.. GW doesn't have to make the experience terrible for you, simply pretend they don't exist. This is becoming the case with people I know who play 40k, mainly use modified 5E rules and converted models.

But for GW, it is even more awful than most people say here. They are the worst recreational activities company I've ever seen, by a good degree. Their spitefulness and generally mean-spirited attitude is only matched by their ineptitude and disconnection from reality. This "lay off GW" stuff is nonsense because they are actively killing their franchise and are not "trying" to make it better. The only thing they're trying to do is manipulate the numbers to make a "positive" sales report to the investors, nothing else. Note I didn't say "make profits" because they're past that point and are trying to simply hold on financial report to financial report without gak hitting the fan for them. Otherwise the powers that be there hate the hobby and hate you. GW going under and 40k being bought by a real even semi-competent company that isn't at war with its customers would be the best thing that would happen to it. Don't appreciate GW, wish they get bought out if you care about 40k or FB. The sooner you understand this the sooner you can move past GW and play 40k.

And GW deserves every bit of criticism they get and then more, the whiteknighters here are fascinating. This is a company that actually dislikes you personally and you seek to defend them. And no, that's not an exaggeration. GW hates gamer-orientated older customers who use the new-fangled internet.

Exactly, no reason to try to restrict yourself based entirely on GW's catalogue. Don't like something that's fine, like something that's also fine. No need to go "well I like it so then YOU can't hate it" or the other way around, if GW does things that seem stupid to people then leave them to think they're stupid just as you go off to think they aren't with the same decisions. The thing that will really tell if they are or aren't are their sales numbers; and they have not been liking their choices.

Plus the whole all or nothing approach simply screams idiocy.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I never really bought the whole "Oh, the complainers are in the minority. Everyone else is forging a narrative with big ol' grins!" idea that gets put out. Most 40k players I meet have some sort of gripe with Warhammer 40,000 or GW. This isn't to say they aren't forging narratives with gak eating grins but only the most vehement GW defenders fail to recognize it's short comings. And how can't they? The problems with the company and it's games are legion. To ignore all of it is to live with your head so deep in the sand you can start brushing up against sandstone.

This isn't to say people who dislike what GW does or recognizes the faults of the shouldn't play. Far from it. There are aspects of 40k that are still quite enjoyable such as the story and the models. Few games can make a battle scene like 40k. I don't think there are very many people who play the game without enjoying something about it. I myself enjoy the models and the story. I also like assembling themed armies as it fills me with pride to hear people say, "Wow, that's cool!".

Which is why I think Swastakowey's argument is crap. The "If you don't like it, leave" argument never works because it assumes a all-or-nothing approach to the "whether one should love something despite it's faults" problem. Either you have to love everything about 40,000 (Or just shut up about it) or gtfo.

I could believe the complainers are in the minority simply because most people DO leave after some time. Of all my long term friends, I'm the only one still playing, there's one other guy who is working on an army but he's been working on it for the past 5 years and hasn't played a game with it yet, at the rate he's going he might have an army in another 5 years, lol. Everyone else has quit and their complaining can no longer be heard.

The fact that GW is hemorrhaging sales is about all the proof you need that even if the 'complainers' are the minority, they are a growing minority that can't be dismissed so easily.

 TheCustomLime wrote:


Which is why I think Swastakowey's argument is crap. The "If you don't like it, leave" argument never works because it assumes a all-or-nothing approach to the "whether one should love something despite it's faults" problem. Either you have to love everything about 40,000 (Or just shut up about it) or gtfo.

Or, to put into one term, it's a false dilemma fallacy.

 krazynadechukr wrote:

Imagine being a pilot, working for xyz airlines. Everyday complaining about the planes used by the company, the quality of employees that are being hired, the quality of food on the plane, etc... then a stewardess says "you should find another airline to work for."

Time after time they will be like "hey, if I dont complain, things wont change." Not realizing they are going about it all the wrong way. Many times they like to have a vent session, then go and buy $100 worth of 40k stuff anyways...

Laugh it off.

Wow.

False analogy is false. The difference here is we are not employees of GW, we're the customers; or were at one point as their shenanigans have gotten too much.

I really don't understand why people bother with analogies so much, though I admit I occasionally do it as well, lol. We are all big boys and girls here, we can talk about people complaining about 40k without having to abstract it with talking about complaining about cars, airlines, phones.

Using pointless analogies is kind of like driving to work and getting stuck in traffic.

 Harriticus wrote:
Note I didn't say "make profits" because they're past that point and are trying to simply hold on financial report to financial report without gak hitting the fan for them. Otherwise the powers that be there hate the hobby and hate you.

Thanks for the perfect example of hyperbole that the OP was complaining about. The company made £6.6 million pounds of profit in the six months to December 2013.

Yes, GW do plenty of silly things but the fact that some schadenfreude-junkies assert that £6.6m is a negative number perfectly exemplifies the ludicrous over-reactions and misrepresentations that are spooled out here.

ill-conceived rules which make for poor game play; ludicrously expensive models. Try other systems--you won't regret it.

 olympia wrote:
ill-conceived rules which make for poor game play; ludicrously expensive models. Try other systems--you won't regret it.

Are there any rules that are of a similar scale to 40k? The only ones I've tried are all skirmish type games and I'm really not a fan of skirmish type games (except maybe Aeronautica Imperialis, but that's an odd exception because it has a fun movement mechanic).

 Swastakowey wrote:
You wont pollute everything with doom and gloom if you dont complain. You wont have anything to be annoyed about if you leave the game. Simple really.

If someone's leaving dog crap on your step, if you don't complain you won't be annoyed by it and everyone will be happy! Yay!

If you leave it alone instead of moving it you won't have to be annoyed by moving it too! Yaaaay!

It's all sooo simple really. Just ignore everything and let it walk over you because being passive is the absolute best way to state you opinion on any matter at all! In fact by being passive and shutting up you realise you cannot be wrong? Can't be wrong if you never answered the question or raised a concern about something, right?

The most annoying part of any fanbase, is the base of blindness with in it; both the hate and the fanwankery blind praise. Both restrict innovation, both lead to backwards thinking which stupidly holds tight to outdated ideas brought about by the "good old days" and kept around simply because no one bothered to point out issues with them. If something changes in a way you do not like, why should you just take it? Like the dog crap example up there. Don't like it? Have a voice, say why you don't like it and do something about it whether it be by stating disappointment, leaving the game system for alternatives or even praising interesting ideas. But never, ever just simply go "well just don't buy it then kek" or "not their fault you don't like it". Obviously as they're trying to put out a product for sale it sort of is their fault if they make an inferior product; they will not please everyone but they will fail those they don't please and this results in missed sales; businesses tend to try to keep these to as close to 0 as possible by the way. So if they release a product that's subpar and people don't like it, they don't want you to shut up and go elsewhere; most businesses want you to say why it is because you won't be the only one and by raising issues they can be addressed and improved on. GW is seemingly unique in how they seem to widely just ignore this. Will they see every raised issue? Probably not, but echoed enough and they will catch things; if no one says anything there is no echo.

Because if you stay silent and let the crap build up you're not going to even be able to open your door. Then it is your fault.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Note I didn't say "make profits" because they're past that point and are trying to simply hold on financial report to financial report without gak hitting the fan for them. Otherwise the powers that be there hate the hobby and hate you.

Thanks for the perfect example of hyperbole that the OP was complaining about. The company made £6.6 million pounds of profit in the six months to December 2013.

Yes, GW do plenty of silly things but the fact that some schadenfreude-junkies assert that £6.6m is a negative number perfectly exemplifies the ludicrous over-reactions and misrepresentations that are spooled out here.

In the same period 2004 they made 19, year on year they are making less profit that's been the case for a long time now but we are reaching the danger point now because the price of shares haven't improved much since the big dip earlier.

Shareholders don't care about us they want money and if gw keeps up this trend there will be a run on the stock market and bankruptcy won't be far behind that.

40k is broken and people are moving away from it to play other games, unless 7th radically changes things that's going to spell doom for the company, he'll it's already happening with the warhammer players.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 olympia wrote:
ill-conceived rules which make for poor game play; ludicrously expensive models. Try other systems--you won't regret it.

Are there any rules that are of a similar scale to 40k? The only ones I've tried are all skirmish type games and I'm really not a fan of skirmish type games (except maybe Aeronautica Imperialis, but that's an odd exception because it has a fun movement mechanic).

But size is the problem . w40k is a skirmish system at least as far as rules go . If someone would try to play WM or infinity at 1000pts it would be just as fun as w40k is now . The whole fact that it it possible for someone to have to wait for 10-15min only rolling saves , shows that w40k as a game took a wrong turn at some point.

Makumba wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 olympia wrote:
ill-conceived rules which make for poor game play; ludicrously expensive models. Try other systems--you won't regret it.

Are there any rules that are of a similar scale to 40k? The only ones I've tried are all skirmish type games and I'm really not a fan of skirmish type games (except maybe Aeronautica Imperialis, but that's an odd exception because it has a fun movement mechanic).

But size is the problem . w40k is a skirmish system at least as far as rules go . If someone would try to play WM or infinity at 1000pts it would be just as fun as w40k is now . The whole fact that it it possible for someone to have to wait for 10-15min only rolling saves , shows that w40k as a game took a wrong turn at some point.

40k is increasingly convoluted, but it's still a larger scale squad based game suited to 30-50 models per side. The waiting 10-15 minutes while the other person has their turn has never really bothered me except for armies that have hordes of puny models that take forever to move, hence why I'm making magnetic movement trays for my gants and gaunts.

As far as game size goes, I like 40k in the 1500-2000pts range. Big enough for some tanks, couple of monsters, without getting so big that you spend your entire life in the movement phase.

Try Bolt Action. It's like an improved version of 5th edition 40k with Nazis.

Yeah, I've been wanting to get in to Bolt Action, it looks good, though no one around here plays it. I was more thinking something that would let me use the thousands of dollars of 40k models I already have though

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Yeah, I've been wanting to get in to Bolt Action, it looks good, though no one around here plays it. I was more thinking something that would let me use the thousands of dollars of 40k models I already have though

2nd? 3rd? 4th? 5th? I'd wager that pretty much any deition of 40K is better than 6th in most people's eyes. I certainly prefer 5th to 6th. my £0.02.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I never really bought the whole "Oh, the complainers are in the minority. Everyone else is forging a narrative with big ol' grins!" idea that gets put out. Most 40k players I meet have some sort of gripe with Warhammer 40,000 or GW. This isn't to say they aren't forging narratives with gak eating grins but only the most vehement GW defenders fail to recognize it's short comings. And how can't they? The problems with the company and it's games are legion. To ignore all of it is to live with your head so deep in the sand you can start brushing up against sandstone.

This isn't to say people who dislike what GW does or recognizes the faults of the shouldn't play. Far from it. There are aspects of 40k that are still quite enjoyable such as the story and the models. Few games can make a battle scene like 40k. I don't think there are very many people who play the game without enjoying something about it. I myself enjoy the models and the story. I also like assembling themed armies as it fills me with pride to hear people say, "Wow, that's cool!".

Which is why I think Swastakowey's argument is crap. The "If you don't like it, leave" argument never works because it assumes a all-or-nothing approach to the "whether one should love something despite it's faults" problem. Either you have to love everything about 40,000 (Or just shut up about it) or gtfo.

I could believe the complainers are in the minority simply because most people DO leave after some time. Of all my long term friends, I'm the only one still playing, there's one other guy who is working on an army but he's been working on it for the past 5 years and hasn't played a game with it yet, at the rate he's going he might have an army in another 5 years, lol. Everyone else has quit and their complaining can no longer be heard.

That poor fellow. Is it time, money or some other issue?

It is true that those who with less patience left The Hobby quite a long time ago and now the remaining players are losing their patience. You'd think the amount of customers abandoning GW would raise some alarm in HQ as, AFAIK, companies care about customer loyalty. Then again... this is GeeDubs we are talking about.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I really don't understand why people bother with analogies so much, though I admit I occasionally do it as well, lol. We are all big boys and girls here, we can talk about people complaining about 40k without having to abstract it with talking about complaining about cars, airlines, phones.

Using pointless analogies is kind of like driving to work and getting stuck in traffic.

We're like sharks, we just cant stop making analogies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


I do hope the rumored website launch will see a return of the FAQs. But that's my wish listing.

I wouldn't put it past them that they take down the FAQs all together and make it a digital release.

When did GW release a statement saying they hated their customer base? I must have missed that.

I will say as a returning player, the price increase is nothing to balk at but I've manage to snag good deals on Ebay.

Hollismason wrote:
When did GW release a statement saying they hated their customer base? I must have missed that.

I will say as a returning player, the price increase is nothing to balk at but I've manage to snag good deals on Ebay.

I believe it was from somebody who (claimed?) they worked at HQ and the managers would refer to their customers as "plebs" and other such derogatory statements, indicating all they cared about was if you bought stuff.

 Ravenous D wrote:
I wouldn't put it past them that they take down the FAQs all together and make it a digital release.

I wouldn't assume that. Well the second half of that anyways.

If the dev team is responsible for answering the FAQs then the current release schedule might actually be why we haven't seen FAQs in a while. Just a random thought I just had is all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I believe it was from somebody who (claimed?) they worked at HQ and the managers would refer to their customers as "plebs" and other such derogatory statements, indicating all they cared about was if you bought stuff.

That sounds more like what the sales folks might say over the dev side of the house. Even if a few people in the company actually believe that it doesn't mean everyone is guilty of thinking like that though.

Hollismason wrote:
When did GW release a statement saying they hated their customer base? I must have missed that.

I will say as a returning player, the price increase is nothing to balk at but I've manage to snag good deals on Ebay.

Nowhere. It's always a friend of a friend.

An ex-employee Of GW once called customers whiners, though, and that's been taken as company gospel by the same people who can't tell the difference between a profit and a loss.

Yeah I just think there is a huge disconnect here with attributing here some sort of Malevolent Entity that is GW which has emotions and motivations beyond it being a business and wanting to make money. There isn't a secret cabal or some crazy gak secret room where they gather in dark robes and harvest the psychic energy of the suffering of their players. It's a company. A company's job is to be profitable. There's not a single developer at GW that actively hates the game and is purposefully ruining it. They probably all really enjoy their job and in their view are improving it. I

GW is not going to fold any time soon, they're not in the red afaik. They still have a net profit of 30 or so million a year.

It's not going to just fold up shop.

viewfinder wrote:
[youtube] http://youtu.be/uEY58fiSK8E[/youtube]

Aw come now. If you're going to post that joke, at least post the real one.

Hollismason wrote:
When did GW release a statement saying they hated their customer base? I must have missed that.

I will say as a returning player, the price increase is nothing to balk at but I've manage to snag good deals on Ebay.

I can attest to upper management having a disdain for older customers and treat people like bags of money during my time with the great enemy.

Here's GWs former director of growth.

I am a casual player. My biggest problem with 40k is the price.

I do not find the price to high personally. But with the prices where they are.... I am far to ashamed to admit what I spend on this stuff or to show it to my friends. I will never suggest my friends try this game as the price will likely drive them away instantly. If they want me to drag my friends into the hobby they will need to slash prices across the board by about 20-30%. The sticker shock that comes with this game keeps me from inviting new players.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
When did GW release a statement saying they hated their customer base? I must have missed that.

I will say as a returning player, the price increase is nothing to balk at but I've manage to snag good deals on Ebay.

I can attest to upper management having a disdain for older customers and treat people like bags of money during my time with the great enemy.

Here's GWs former director of growth.

One angry person doesn't represent the whole company though. I'll admit it doesn't help the company's image, but I won't hold an entire company accountable for what he was saying after he left GW.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
When did GW release a statement saying they hated their customer base? I must have missed that.

I will say as a returning player, the price increase is nothing to balk at but I've manage to snag good deals on Ebay.

I can attest to upper management having a disdain for older customers and treat people like bags of money during my time with the great enemy.

Here's GWs former director of growth.

One angry person doesn't represent the whole company though. I'll admit it doesn't help the company's image, but I won't hold an entire company accountable for what he was saying after he left GW.

When it by a guy who's whole job it to grow the game and player base, it says a whole lot.