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It's not all bad but if you have to go out of your way to post even if it's only 5 minutes then only someone who's passionate about eh subject is going to bother. As such people who feel "meh" about the situation aren't going to bother.

Now it's become very in to be negative about everything these days and Dakka has a very vocal group who will wade into each and every topic to remind everyone how terrible the game is in their opinion and how at best wrong at worst idiotic everyone who disagrees is. Now Dakka isn't alone in this by any means, like I say it's very in, but it's the place I frequent most often and thus see in the most detail.

When you get a loud enough bastion of this many positive posters simply will not bother, I can only testify anecdotally from myself and people I know to this but I will often read the first page and see all the same old names and hate and simply leave the thread be never to return. Occasionally I feel strongly enough to post but often due to the highly combative nature of some of the posters it simply isn't worth it.

Take out the meh and the positive and what are you left with.

TL : DR
The internet is a place for hate, don't take it as an indicator of how much enjoyment can be had from the game.

 Dunklezahn wrote:
It's not all bad but if you have to go out of your way to post even if it's only 5 minutes then only someone who's passionate about eh subject is going to bother. As such people who feel "meh" about the situation aren't going to bother.

Now it's become very in to be negative about everything these days and Dakka has a very vocal group who will wade into each and every topic to remind everyone how terrible the game is in their opinion and how at best wrong at worst idiotic everyone who disagrees is. Now Dakka isn't alone in this by any means, like I say it's very in, but it's the place I frequent most often and thus see in the most detail.

When you get a loud enough bastion of this many positive posters simply will not bother, I can only testify anecdotally from myself and people I know to this but I will often read the first page and see all the same old names and hate and simply leave the thread be never to return. Occasionally I feel strongly enough to post but often due to the highly combative nature of some of the posters it simply isn't worth it.

Take out the meh and the positive and what are you left with.

TL : DR
The internet is a place for hate, don't take it as an indicator of how much enjoyment can be had from the game.

While a lot of what you're saying is true, I think there are a lot of posters here, myself included, that would usually defend GW. However, most people will only take so much gak before becoming vocal.

Less than three months ago, I had planned on applying for a job with G-dubs. Now? Not with a bargepole.

 Dunklezahn wrote:
It's not all bad but if you have to go out of your way to post even if it's only 5 minutes then only someone who's passionate about eh subject is going to bother. As such people who feel "meh" about the situation aren't going to bother.

Now it's become very in to be negative about everything these days and Dakka has a very vocal group who will wade into each and every topic to remind everyone how terrible the game is in their opinion and how at best wrong at worst idiotic everyone who disagrees is. Now Dakka isn't alone in this by any means, like I say it's very in, but it's the place I frequent most often and thus see in the most detail.

When you get a loud enough bastion of this many positive posters simply will not bother, I can only testify anecdotally from myself and people I know to this but I will often read the first page and see all the same old names and hate and simply leave the thread be never to return. Occasionally I feel strongly enough to post but often due to the highly combative nature of some of the posters it simply isn't worth it.

Take out the meh and the positive and what are you left with.

TL : DR
The internet is a place for hate, don't take it as an indicator of how much enjoyment can be had from the game.

That's all well and good but it is a fact that GWs sales are falling quite rapidly so while the 'hate' you see on the internet shouldn't be taken as the majority opinion it is a growing opinion.

 Lobukia wrote:
How could a fan of the 40k universe NOT hate on GW? That's the better questions IMO.

By not being that emotionally involved in GW's shenanigans. I disapprove of things GW does, or have times when I wonder what they're smoking, but I don't hate them.

 liquidjoshi wrote:

While a lot of what you're saying is true, I think there are a lot of posters here, myself included, that would usually defend GW. However, most people will only take so much gak before becoming vocal.

Less than three months ago, I had planned on applying for a job with G-dubs. Now? Not with a bargepole.

I wouldn't dispute that but it doesn't go against what I'm saying. If you go into a thread and it's first page is the same 10 names saying 6th sucks, melee sucks, GW sucks, it makes not posting far easier, especially if you suspect at least 1 of them will fly into personal attacks if you dare say you are still enjoying it.

You admit that are are now on the other side of the fence, it's a lot easier when these people are at your back rather than shouting abuse in your face. As a result people will simply shake their head and metaphorically walk on by. I do it all the time, I hit the reply button with a reply on the tip of my tongue then decide it's just not worth the hassle. Dakka has a very negative "Forum Mafia" that like to descend on threads and make sure any positive voice is drowned out in a tide of hate. I have no problems standing up against that but if I don't care significantly about the topic then I just leave them to it and given the level of personal attacks in some threads that level of care required is rising with almost every post.

This however is one of those times when I feel putting my hand up and saying I still love 40k and what they are doing (barring the odd decision because I'm never gonna agree with everything *anyone* says) needs to be said.

jonolikespie wrote:
That's all well and good but it is a fact that GWs sales are falling quite rapidly so while the 'hate' you see on the internet shouldn't be taken as the majority opinion it is a growing opinion.

True, however that is a stat that carries limited context, you cannot say with any confidence the reason for that number. Economic troubles still plague the globe, new model companies are rising and may be taking custom because people prefer the aesthetic not necessarily because of GW hatred.
How many people leave for other games because they want to try something new? Impossible to say.
We know GW profits are dropping, trying to state with any fact the reason for that is a whole different ball game. I'm not ruling out hatred for their practice but the profit drop cannot be cited as the evidence for it being the majority either.


Edit, reply came while i was typing.

If you consider most companies in the table top games market are experiencing a period of growth.And have been for a couple of years now.
Coupled with GW plc falling sales volumes for over a decade.

Then I would suggest GW plc drop in profits and share price has evolved from a long term problem GW plc CEO has failed to address.

People that dont like the game of 40k and simply switch games , AND tend to take all their friends with them.
And people that get fed up with GW plc polices and just stop buying from GW.
And all the customers who just become disenchanted with 40k and take up other hobbies instead.

All these people do not bother to post on forums.

Only people who care about 40k as a game universe and viable game system, bother to critisize the way GW plc (fail to )develop and market 40k,

There is not hate for 40k.
Just frustration with GWs handling of 40k.And a vain hope that eventually things will improve .

My 2ps worth.

Lanrak wrote:
If you consider most companies in the table top games market are experiencing a period of growth.And have been for a couple of years now.
Coupled with GW plc falling sales volumes for over a decade.

Then I would suggest GW plc drop in profits and share price has evolved from a long term problem GW plc CEO has failed to address.

Not necessarily, unless the market is growing at the same rate those other companies are taking a bigger share of the pie, this is true, it doesn't however corroborate that people like GW's pie less but rather that different flavours of pie are now available that they may like more. The extra pie Warmahordes is eating has to come from somewhere.

Add in that since in this case pie eating is a social event (This pie metaphor has gotten away from me somewhat, i'm gonna drop it ) now that more games are available and being played you can find people willing to play them with you because not everyone is playing GW stuff. 10 years ago if Infinity had come out you could have really liked it but it would have started out niche and most people in your area may well play GW stuff so you might not have bothered. Now these other brands have expanded into their own right both in terms of line and playerbase people have more options are so GW cannot be expected to have the same market dominance it had when it was alone.

Lanrak wrote:
There is not hate for 40k.
Just frustration with GWs handling of 40k.And a vain hope that eventually things will improve.

We are reading different boards, the bile and hatred for GW is present throughout this board. They are incompetent, terrible designers, marketers, scupltors, ruining the game with their idiocy. A personal attack of this nature indicates hatred, not frustration in my opinion.

 Dunklezahn wrote:

We are reading different boards, the bile and hatred for GW is present throughout this board. They are incompetent, terrible designers, marketers, scupltors, ruining the game with their idiocy. A personal attack of this nature indicates hatred, not frustration in my opinion.

If it was really hatred then it wouldn't be as rational of a decision.
It honestly is just accumulated frustration for me.
6th hits and flyers get updated for only half the armies: okay
Allies shenanigans start tipping the balance scale further: Meh
a few bland codex that really push things in a balanced and positive direction: Hope intensifies
Followed immediately by Tau, which stands well above the standard set so far: Okay, maybe a fluke
Followed by Eldar and Space Marines: Maybe not that bad
Followed by data slates and formations: Okay, kinda bad. It was going a bit unchecked with allies, but now it seems to be running wild.
Followed by Inquisition: Someone gave a drunk their car keys
Escalation and Stronghold assault: Honestly why have a FOC at this point?
and now IK: Is FOC a running joke in the UK? I don't get it?

It's a frustrating scenario that GW seems to almost be toying with us. As much as people didn't like the Escalation and Stronghold assault release and the general unease that people felt, only to see a very questionable IK release shortly after? How could you really doubt people's frustrations? Frontline Games did an amazing battle report using the Revenant when Escalation hit to show how, with even a bit of play testing, the unit was incredibly broken in standard formats. It's frustration that the game that so many of us enjoy has been rushed and forced onto the shelves with no regard to the actual quality of the game. Or the LotD supplement that can apparently lead to a turn 1 defeat. Helbrute Formations coming out for the sole purpose of pushing a model? This is like a game where you pay for the patches and the patches cause more bugs than it fixes.

If GW plc had close to complete market dominance in fictional table top games the late 1990s.
(With a wide range of fully supported games .)

And now other companies are producing games that are of similar type the the ones GW plc dropped, or failed to give adequate support too.

And these games are growing in popularity, and leaving Gw plc with a shrinking customer base, they have to get higher returns from to maintain profit.

The one could say the C.E.O was ignoring the problem that customers wanted good games, and GW plc were focused on '..selling toy soldiers to children...'

I would say typing on a forum that you think some one is an 'incompetent moron', is a sign of frustration with them.

Actually subjecting some one to psychological or physical harm/torture is an expression of actual hatred.

Caring about something and expressing a concern on how you believe it is being mis managed , is not hate.

I hope you never experience the destructive force that is hate in you life.And may your belief that 'internet complaining ' is as bad as 'hate' gets, is never proved wrong in a personal demonstrable way.

Peace, and happy gaming to one and all.

People do know the Dataslates and formations are made by the blokes in the Digital Editions team and not the GW main dev team right?

And yet strangely they're more accepted than FW is...

 ClockworkZion wrote:

And yet strangely they're more accepted than FW is...

I can see that. $5 for rules to a model you already own or pay a premium for an IA book and then get one or two models out of that to run.
Really that's all that is stopping me from expanding into Forgeworld. I don't want to get one of their huge and expensive books to field one or two extra units in a game. I'm not saying that the quality or balance is bad, it's just another starting barrier that I'm hesitant to cross.

Honestly I swear there is some mysticism to FW. I got into a discussion Saturday at the FLGS because the manager was talking about how he might have a FW wall. Some were a bit nervous and I told them about how it doesn't do anything for me as a Tau player. Once I started explaining things like the majority T3 MC and heavy gun drones, they kind of realized that FW can be hit or miss. They even post up experimental rules all the time, so it's not really a case of the unknown.

 Dunklezahn wrote:
Dakka has a very negative "Forum Mafia" that like to descend on threads and make sure any positive voice is drowned out in a tide of hate. I have no problems standing up against that but if I don't care significantly about the topic then I just leave them to it and given the level of personal attacks in some threads that level of care required is rising with almost every post.

Weird, I've seen a number of users I'm guessing you would characterise as "forum mafia" refer to a "casual at all costs mafia" or words to that effect.

It's almost as though people on one side of a debate need to characterise those that disagree in some negative context. Much better to take each argument on it's merits says I.

jonolikespie wrote:
That's all well and good but it is a fact that GWs sales are falling quite rapidly so while the 'hate' you see on the internet shouldn't be taken as the majority opinion it is a growing opinion.

True, however that is a stat that carries limited context, you cannot say with any confidence the reason for that number. Economic troubles still plague the globe, new model companies are rising and may be taking custom because people prefer the aesthetic not necessarily because of GW hatred.

I agree it carries limited context, because it is one interim report. Once their second, end of year, report is published in about two months, that will provide a lot more info as to whether this is a blip or a trend. The economy isn't really valid in this sense because firstly, it is broadly accepted that people do spend more on "small" pleasures when the economy is poor, but, more tellingly in this situation, the sales were down in all territories, including the likes of Australasia, which have their own peculiar issues with GW, but their economy is still fairly robust.

How many people leave for other games because they want to try something new? Impossible to say.

Agreed, motivation would be impossible without extensive research to assess, but I'll counter that with -why now? GW has been top dog, and financially consistent for some time, there have been other pretenders to the throne as long as I can remember back to 2nd edition. Why, all of a sudden, is there apparently a mass exodus from GW like never before?

We know GW profits are dropping, trying to state with any fact the reason for that is a whole different ball game. I'm not ruling out hatred for their practice but the profit drop cannot be cited as the evidence for it being the majority either.

There is no one reason, IMO, but their questionable, or shall we be charitable and call it "unorthodox?" way of conducting their business, and the resulting disenchantment it breeds in what appears to be a significant, if not statistically large (again, without extensive research, impossible to assess) part of their customer base is a key one.


EDIT

I'm also declaring war on the usage of the term "hate" for anyone who expresses a negative opinion of GW or 40K. Of course there is the odd frothing loon, but a lot of people often have well reasoned and supported arguments for their thought processes, and to use a clumsy, extreme notion like "hate" to describe these sorts of posters/arguments just harks back to my earlier "mafia" comments, and doesn't do people the courtesy of due consideration for their points by hand waving it away under the banner of an irrational emotion.

The way i see it is this:40k obviously has some units that are stronger than others, but no matter how cheesy a unit is, it WILL have counter... wraithknight? Sternguard with combi gravs and hellfire rounds.
Wave serpent spam? Bury them one by one with s6-7 shots. Flying circus? Again target saturation with anti air weaponry. jetbike farseer with rerollable 2+ cover save?? Legion of the damned meltagun to the face or again blast him with dragonfire(ignores cover) bolts from sternguard.
The point i am trying to make is that while cheese CAN ONLY be killed with cheese, if you are on tournament you HAVE TO bring some cheese of your own, because it is competitive play. You are encouraged to do the best you can, which obviously isn't possible to achieve with fluffy, useless units(possesed for example). Instead a. CSM player will bring plague marines, obliterators, heldrakes, C:SM would be clan raukaan chapter master smash****er whitescars grav spam etc. As for a friendly game... Don't be a head and bring truckloads of cheese vs a fluffy list???
Tl;dr just as players in games like SC don't use units that are weak in competitive play, same goes for 40k

Hatred can be a very rational decision Convoy, just as an aside, some people give others a genuine reason to hate them.

"Actually subjecting some one to psychological or physical harm/torture is an expression of actual hatred."

It is but it is not the only one, as I said in another thread, Apples are Fruit, not all Fruit are Apples. You are describing violence, a sometime symptom of hatred.

"Hate the management, respect the game."
"They are a company, and they are made to make money, and they dont mind screwing their loyal fans by half-assing so many of their new rules. "
"as excuses for why their laziness and incompetence is something to be proud of. Don't make excuses for that kind of behavior."

Very mild examples but it took 5 minutes and I looked on in this thread alone on I think the first 2-3 pages. I'm not prepared to trawl the rest of the board for something more offensive the MODS missed but I didn't have to go far. People on this board respond with rage and hate toward GW and their fellow posters, not simply frustration.
Some folks are simply frustrated, and they can usually be relied upon for a reasonable (If opposing ) conversation, but, there are people who frequent these boards enough that they are dedicating significant time (indicating an investment) in the idea of pushing their hate of GW and the people who enjoy their work.

 Dunklezahn wrote:
Hthere are people who frequent these boards enough that they are dedicating significant time (indicating an investment) in the idea of pushing their hate of GW and the people who enjoy their work.

Demonstrably true.

It's actually quite hilarious that some people keep repeating as fact that GW hate them, on the basis of sketchy rumours and a silly rant by one ex-employee. Then they get so offended at this rudeness that they go round calling people ignorant (again and again), , trolls, or assert that pointing out that a loss is not the same as a profit is a "very bad point." .

It's always funny to see people demand a high standard of probity from others - then conspicuously fail to demonstrate it in their own conduct.

 azreal13 wrote:

Weird, I've seen a number of users I'm guessing you would characterise as "forum mafia" refer to a "casual at all costs mafia" or words to that effect.
It's almost as though people on one side of a debate need to characterise those that disagree in some negative context. Much better to take each argument on it's merits says I.

But that's not what's happening here, we have reached a point where even at my own casual observation of threads I can almost predict when certain posters will appear and their comments. Tell me that you could see a discussion about melee units without it devolving into "6th ed is a pure shooting game" within a page. The fact a conversation is ongoing has become irrelevant, only the pushing of the statement "X is OP/UP/better than Y" Now I could generally be relied upon to weigh in to get people to be more specific about what they think is OP but I'm even letting those go often because of the level of bile I got last time that resulted in at lest one temporary ban.

I agree it carries limited context, because it is one interim report. Once their second, end of year, report is published in about two months, that will provide a lot more info as to whether this is a blip or a trend. The economy isn't really valid in this sense because firstly, it is broadly accepted that people do spend more on "small" pleasures when the economy is poor, but, more tellingly in this situation, the sales were down in all territories, including the likes of Australasia, which have their own peculiar issues with GW, but their economy is still fairly robust.

Ah but 40k is not the only little luxury, nor in fact as many posters will rush to tell you, is it not a little luxury at all. Look at the threads about GW startup costs, it is an expensive hobby in terms of costs and time, something the computer does better.

Agreed, motivation would be impossible without extensive research to assess, but I'll counter that with -why now? GW has been top dog, and financially consistent for some time, there have been other pretenders to the throne as long as I can remember back to 2nd edition. Why, all of a sudden, is there apparently a mass exodus from GW like never before?

There have always been pretenders but thanks to the web startups if nothing else it's easier. Now it's unlikely to be the only reason as we have had far more non-GW growth than before but it's also possible that we are now seeing the new generation of GW's kid players growing into their own companies and GW's previous success sowed the seeds for their own failure. It's a complicated and interesting question though.

There is no one reason, IMO, but their questionable, or shall we be charitable and call it "unorthodox?" way of conducting their business, and the resulting disenchantment it breeds in what appears to be a significant, if not statistically large (again, without extensive research, impossible to assess) part of their customer base is a key one.

It's true that they have upset folks but as you say, how many? I certainly don't use a forum as a good indicator though as even assuming no-one is trolling (for either side) dislike is always a better driving force than enjoyment.

I'm also declaring war on the usage of the term "hate" for anyone who expresses a negative opinion of GW or 40K.

It's rarely used that way but I see what your trying to do, I personally don't consider it hatred until someone has started with the personal attacks but I'd support the idea if "Hate" is used as a substitute for anyone who dislikes something about the game, I used dislike above in reverance to your crusade

 Dunklezahn wrote:

It's rarely used that way

Would you like a list of the posts that disregarded all valid criticisms against 40K and were labeled as hating for the sake of hating in this thread alone? You wouldn't have to go back too far. Sweeping generlizations about how anyone that isn't purely positive about 40k being negative and hating for the sake of hating is overwhelmingly more common than any personal attacks made from the more negative leaning side. Even you have gone so far as to call people members of a "Forum Mafia" trying to overwhelm positive comments.
This is untrue and most dishonest. The people that have negative opinions have not in this thread, nor any other thread that I've seen, told anyone they can't have fun or to leave the game. I haven't called anyone the Fun Police for trying to talk about the positives of the game. I don't like being generalized as a hater for my opinions and I don't like being told I can't have opinions, both of which far more negative than a valid criticism of a company and game. The closest thing I can recall to the scenario you paint out is asking players to realize the faults that others experience with the game, even if they are able to work around the faults and have fun, and that the request for higher quality is not "whining" when we feel like we are paying more than enough to justify the quality we expect.

I've seen many people not take up WH or drop it due to GW's business practices. I don't think putting one's head in the sand will make that go away. GW is pushing customers away. The question is, are they pushing them away faster than they're gaining them?
I doubt it.
I doubt it because: A. the start up prices are very high. B. GW doesn't advertise. C. GW prevents others from advertising for them. D. Other games are easier to get into, offer customer support and advertise. E. GW is getting a bad reputation for rude business practices from word of mouth. F. Bad word of mouth about the game itself from forums such as this one.

About the employee/former employee that bad mouthed GW's customers. Yes, he didn't speak for the company, but here's the thing and why I believe people have bad feelings about GW for it: GW has never said or done anything to refute what that man said. When you have Kirby saying that the hobby is "buying stuff from GW" he only enforces that negative idea, whether its true or not. GW does not understand public relations at all.

They don't understand public relations because they refuse to interact with the fan base. There is no real way to contact them. I've seen letters and I've sent e-mails to the customer service department because I didn't know where else to go. They've sealed themselves off in their little castles and refuse to listen or speak with their customers. That's not a good way to run a business because if their business starts going down, they won't understand why or how to fix it. and it'll be a shock to them.

The latest photo taken of Kirby at GW HQ.

I've lurked this thread for awhile. A key thing folks are missing when defending GW is multi-teired.

First, using myself and those I have met over the years as a barometer (read anecdotal), we have spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of man hours building our armies for however we see fit. That's a part of why we enjoy Warhammer 40k, otherwise we would be playing something else that doesn't involve this.

We bought into this hobby for various reasons; fluff, models, gameplay, or a mixture of the three. We all have a various level within each category. A tournament player may be more concerned with gameplay than a narrative forger. A professional painter might be more concerned about model detail and quality than how it plays on the tabletop.

However, the reason why complaints are being increased is that no matter who you are, the value prospect of GW is decreasing. Not the "perceived value," as in what you personally equate, but the literal value. And this is even before you compare the company to competition.

The fluff player... We have seen the fluff being redacted or "rewound" with every release. What was built upon on previous editions has been removed. Third party informations repositories (e.g. 40k wikis) now contain a more complete timeline of the events of the 41st Millenium then what you find in current releases. Was is a brave guardsman that was the final man to stand in front of Horus... no wait, it was a space marine... no wait, it was Custodian (or w/e those Terra guards are called). I don't know, choose which point of this fiction you want? GW has said that all fluff is some form of propoganda, allowing them to back peddle about anything at anytime. It never progresses, despite many other game settings (digital, role playing, table top, etc.) being succesful and still advancing an overall story. It could even simply be a cheesy sci-fi soap opera, but at least it would change. Characters can die. It doesn't mean you can't keep playing them in the table top, or maybe their heroic sacrifice creates a new model or new rules, perhaps?

The models... are getting better. No doubt about it. However, their value is not. Many kits that were previously 10 models are the same price for five. Or their price just increases with no perceived reasoning. Or we get metal replacments that JUMP in price with a lower cost material (without commenting on lower quality). We have static, single pose plastic minautures going $30. Not even specific artistic merits, we have seen a lot more new model introductions (love 'em, hate 'em) that do not correct long lasting aging model lines that die hard fans of certain factions keep requesting (sorry Chaos, Eldar, Orks, Sisters,...). Things like the Riptide for $85 is a joke compared to a Master Grade Gundam kit which is 8x the sprues (read 8x the material), cheaper, is a physically bigger model, loads of detail, and is fully posable upon construction WITH multiple weapon load outs. But no, GW is a "premium" product.

Finecast. I said it. Privateer Press produces their same kits in plastic/resin that were previously metal and they always drop in price. Games Workshop increased the price. That's. Dumb.

Lastly, the rules... the rules shouldn't need discussing. We have seen many releases that need FAQs day one, obviously, without play testing or are flat out broken. We have a codex release that, if taken as the primary detachment, autoloses the game. We are seeing copy & paste releases, billed as "new", and charged at a "premium" price. Premium costs for what? Hardcovers are a joke, anyone even remotely aware of the books business model knows that they only slightly up the manufacturing and shipping costs while reaping a premium for the "gotta have it" day one buyers. Color? Other companies have been doing color for cheaper for a long time. Size? See previous answer, too. Look at the content and quality of the Fantasy Flight Rogue Trader, Dark Heresy, Deathwatch releases. The same cost, or so, as a recent codex but with far more physical size, more fluff, more rules. You don't even need models to play that game and the rules are cheaper.

I'm straying into comparisons of other companies and it's hard not to. Games Workshop does not exist in a vacuum. We have already seen game companies produce better rules for cheaper (or free), provide better customer support (by, at minimum, acknowledging them!), and like products for cheaper. You don't have to like Warmachine as a game, but they produce a setting that advances and by advancing, they produce new models that fit the fluff. We could have Wolf Guard Ragnar, Wolf Lord Ragnar, and maybe Grand Wolf Ragnar if the fluff would ever progress. Privateer Press never invalidates the playstyle of the previous variants of the same characters, just changes them. They just killed a huge character from one of their factions, but I can still play him. He may even come back (fluff allowing) and I would get a varaint! Look, more models to buy, new ways to play!

I'm thousands deep in 40k. You got me. I complain because it is hard for me to walk away from all that time and money invested. I want to keep playing the game, to keep enjoying it, but they are trashing the game, reducing the value of model releases, and never doing anything with the fluff. The value of the game, from the cold hard facts, is going down. You can work yourself up as much as you want about how much you love it or don't mind the prices as it's a luxury item, that's fine. It doesn't change the facts.

And that's why I complain. And that's why I own armies from 4 different games outside of Games Workshop these days.

Have an exalt to go with the haterade you're obviously drinking to construct such a post.

Davor wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
Too OP: Its not hate, I just know they can do a better job. It would be a great loss if GW died.

It'd be a loss if they died and took 40k with them, if gw went down but someone else bought 40k and warhammer and did a better job that would be a plus.

Another company can actually do worse. So much worse.

How? Realistically mind you.

 Harriticus wrote:

How? Realistically mind you.

The easiest way would be to make the fluff more PC. I mean I could just imagine that they make Space Marines into noble and tolerant protectors of humanity that resort to violence only as a last resort. Don't want to paint a war game as too violent after all.
Probably just remove SoB all together as something that someone will eventually accuse of being sexist. Might as well have no women in the game or fluff just to avoid the battle corsets.

Or we could see them attempting to fill in the numerous gaps in the fluff with their own stories. Tau for example leaves the origins of the Ethereals suspicious on purpose. While someone may think they are doing good by removing the mystery their answer will always upset someone. The mysterious human frozen in a Necron Trophy case? Or they could just advance the story in a bad direction. Like letting Abbadon have a successful crusade.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:

How? Realistically mind you.

The easiest way would be to make the fluff more PC. I mean I could just imagine that they make Space Marines into noble and tolerant protectors of humanity that resort to violence only as a last resort. Don't want to paint a war game as too violent after all.
Probably just remove SoB all together as something that someone will eventually accuse of being sexist. Might as well have no women in the game or fluff just to avoid the battle corsets.

Or we could see them attempting to fill in the numerous gaps in the fluff with their own stories. Tau for example leaves the origins of the Ethereals suspicious on purpose. While someone may think they are doing good by removing the mystery their answer will always upset someone. The mysterious human frozen in a Necron Trophy case? Or they could just advance the story in a bad direction. Like letting Abbadon have a successful crusade.

I think he meant business wise not fluff wise.

hobojebus wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:

How? Realistically mind you.

The easiest way would be to make the fluff more PC. I mean I could just imagine that they make Space Marines into noble and tolerant protectors of humanity that resort to violence only as a last resort. Don't want to paint a war game as too violent after all.
Probably just remove SoB all together as something that someone will eventually accuse of being sexist. Might as well have no women in the game or fluff just to avoid the battle corsets.

Or we could see them attempting to fill in the numerous gaps in the fluff with their own stories. Tau for example leaves the origins of the Ethereals suspicious on purpose. While someone may think they are doing good by removing the mystery their answer will always upset someone. The mysterious human frozen in a Necron Trophy case? Or they could just advance the story in a bad direction. Like letting Abbadon have a successful crusade.

I think he meant business wise not fluff wise.

How to handle the newly acquired IP would be a business decision would it not?

I think that any company that decided to take the IP in the direction outlined would have such little idea about what it had bought and what to do with it that odds are their decision making in other areas would be equally suspect and they wouldn't be around long.

Odds are more heavily in favour of a company with experience in and around the sector coming in, should it happen, with due diligence done, a clear idea of why 40K appeals to people and a plan of how to exploit that.

Or Hasbro or Disney buys the IP and we either get Pony Marines, Transformer Marines, or the Emperor is now Mickey.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Or Hasbro or Disney buys the IP and we either get Pony Marines, Transformer Marines, or the Emperor is now Mickey.

Cause that's totally what happened when Disney bought Marvel, right?

Isn't the setting currently more PC than its ever been?
The current codexs lack a lot of the darker themes, a lot of BL book have been reduced to "Space Marine Captain X defeats Y" and the hopelessness that is supposed to underlie it all is hard to find when Marneus Calgar wins every fight eva.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Or Hasbro or Disney buys the IP and we either get Pony Marines, Transformer Marines, or the Emperor is now Mickey.

Cause that's totally what happened when Disney bought Marvel, right?

It was largely a joke (I hope).

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:

How? Realistically mind you.

The easiest way would be to make the fluff more PC. I mean I could just imagine that they make Space Marines into noble and tolerant protectors of humanity that resort to violence only as a last resort.

Already pretty much the case in most BL fluff. We even have multiple stories about noble Chaos Space Marines!

Don't want to paint a war game as too violent after all.

40k rarely gets into the horrors of war and treats it as a literal game, save things like 15 Hours of whatever.

Probably just remove SoB all together as something that someone will eventually accuse of being sexist. Might as well have no women in the game or fluff just to avoid the battle corsets.

No more Sisters?! Oh no! This'd be terrible given how excellently they're treated right now!

Or we could see them attempting to fill in the numerous gaps in the fluff with their own stories. Tau for example leaves the origins of the Ethereals suspicious on purpose. While someone may think they are doing good by removing the mystery their answer will always upset someone. The mysterious human frozen in a Necron Trophy case? Or they could just advance the story in a bad direction. Like letting Abbadon have a successful crusade.

Advancing the fluff at certain levels would not be a terrible thing, especially if they had professional writers take a shot at it.

In any regard all the stuff you list I'd gladly trade in a second if it meant non-joke prices, no more secrecy BS, company-consumer interaction, a real ruleset, competency, emphasis on fun over "collecting", and most of all (after prices anyway) a company that doesn't hate me.