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Ill admit that I'm glad to see some IG vehicles get a price increase. The camera and vendetta were always underscored for what they gave you. I just hope the russes stay priced competitively. I'd like to see more main battle tanks than transports with overloaded guns for a change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Post made on phone. Sorry for spelling errors.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Ill admit that I'm glad to see some IG vehicles get a price increase. The camera and vendetta were always underscored for what they gave you. I just hope the russes stay priced competitively. I'd like to see more main battle tanks than transports with overloaded guns for a change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Post made on phone. Sorry for spelling errors.

Did people really think the Chimera was that overpowered? If anything, it was the Vets that were a no brainer over regular Guardsman, and then they naturally went in a Chimera. However vets are apparently getting cheaper and the Chimera more expensive, so it only widens the gap between Chimera vets and regular infantry Chimeras.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I have no sympathy here. The Vendetta was universally regarded as way undercosted. It's balanced now. Yes, that might mean changing your list a little. I don't see how you could have expected anything else.

almost 200pts is not a little change . Not at 1500pts. That is no ally taken , or one tank less , but then why take a single one at all . It forces a total rebuilding of a list. And they aren't showing any good tier units like they did with tau , eldar or even marines.

Coming soon to every Astra Militarium army list everywhere...

Save for places where FW is not legal.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Did people really think the Chimera was that overpowered? If anything, it was the Vets that were a no brainer over regular Guardsman, and then they naturally went in a Chimera. However vets are apparently getting cheaper and the Chimera more expensive, so it only widens the gap between Chimera vets and regular infantry Chimeras.

Most people that have/had a problem with the Chimera are still thinking back to 2009 and the beginning of 5th edition, not how the game actually currently plays.

Where was this price change when it actually would have been accurate?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
Ill admit that I'm glad to see some IG vehicles get a price increase. The camera and vendetta were always underscored for what they gave you. I just hope the russes stay priced competitively. I'd like to see more main battle tanks than transports with overloaded guns for a change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Post made on phone. Sorry for spelling errors.

Did people really think the Chimera was that overpowered? If anything, it was the Vets that were a no brainer over regular Guardsman, and then they naturally went in a Chimera. However vets are apparently getting cheaper and the Chimera more expensive, so it only widens the gap between Chimera vets and regular infantry Chimeras.

I didn't think it was overpowered, but it was undercosted. Way too many firing ports for other things than Lasguns. It removed all penalties for having officers in vehicles for giving orders (which clearly was supposed to be a downside since the loss of that ability is a rule).

Now I'm not saying that a Chimera shouldn't have these abilities, just not at the cost that it used to be.

 Vaktathi wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Did people really think the Chimera was that overpowered? If anything, it was the Vets that were a no brainer over regular Guardsman, and then they naturally went in a Chimera. However vets are apparently getting cheaper and the Chimera more expensive, so it only widens the gap between Chimera vets and regular infantry Chimeras.

Most people that have/had a problem with the Chimera are still thinking back to 2009 and the beginning of 5th edition, not how the game actually currently plays.

I think that's pretty accurate. I'd wager all the money in my pocket that the chimera price jump was due to some combination of wanting to make the Taurux more appealing and residual complaints of undercosted chimeras in 5th edition.

And yes, Chimeras were undercosted... for about six months. Compared to Space Wolf Missile Spam, chimeras were perfectly balanced.

170 for the Vendetta is good. I think it becomes a solid unit that fills a role, not a no-brainer auto include. I think we'll see more basic valkyries as well, especially since they're basically the same price with rocket pods (well, 5 points more).

Makumba wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I have no sympathy here. The Vendetta was universally regarded as way undercosted. It's balanced now. Yes, that might mean changing your list a little. I don't see how you could have expected anything else.

almost 200pts is not a little change . Not at 1500pts. That is no ally taken , or one tank less , but then why take a single one at all . It forces a total rebuilding of a list.

Considering that the rules have only been leaked for about 4 or 5 units in the 'Dex thus far, I think that's a premature assessment...

Point increase is warranted, slashing its transport isn't.

What is it supposed to take now? Hell, make it 180 and keep the transport. I just liked having a gunship that could also get dudes where they needed to be. Sure, its a gunship, but what's the point of even having a transport capacity if it's for 6 men - men who die from a stiff breeze no less.

Seems as though everything I really likes about Guard (heavily Mechanised) is being cut back. Chimera costs, Vendetta, removing artillery... sad times.

MWHistorian wrote:
I have no sympathy here. The Vendetta was universally regarded as way undercosted. It's balanced now. Yes, that might mean changing your list a little. I don't see how you could have expected anything else.


It IS GW. I could have totally seen them leaving it unchanged.

And for once GW actually made the correct choice. The things were grossly undercosted, 170 is far more in line with their abilities than 130 was. GW made the correct decision and they are still taking flak for it. I actually feel bad for them for once.

Phanixis wrote:

MWHistorian wrote:
I have no sympathy here. The Vendetta was universally regarded as way undercosted. It's balanced now. Yes, that might mean changing your list a little. I don't see how you could have expected anything else.


It IS GW. I could have totally seen them leaving it unchanged.

And for once GW actually made the correct choice. The things were grossly undercosted, 170 is far more in line with their abilities than 130 was. GW made the correct decision and they are still taking flak for it. I actually feel bad for them for once.

Eh of course they're taking flak for it. I play eneugh MMOs to realize that any "nerf" no matter HOW needed, will be met with flak, and ANY nerf no matter the context will be greated with howls out outrage. GW could combine the vendetta nerf with "guardsman now all have plasma guns instead of lasguns with no gets hot, and a 50% point reduction" and people'd still focus on the nerf

Did people actually think they were getting a new codex and wouldn't have to change their army list? There is always change...that's kinda the point of changing the codex. Now that the Vendetta is priced accordingly, that's a good change.

BrianDavion wrote:

Phanixis wrote:

MWHistorian wrote:
I have no sympathy here. The Vendetta was universally regarded as way undercosted. It's balanced now. Yes, that might mean changing your list a little. I don't see how you could have expected anything else.


It IS GW. I could have totally seen them leaving it unchanged.

And for once GW actually made the correct choice. The things were grossly undercosted, 170 is far more in line with their abilities than 130 was. GW made the correct decision and they are still taking flak for it. I actually feel bad for them for once.

Eh of course they're taking flak for it. I play eneugh MMOs to realize that any "nerf" no matter HOW needed, will be met with flak, and ANY nerf no matter the context will be greated with howls out outrage. GW could combine the vendetta nerf with "guardsman now all have plasma guns instead of lasguns with no gets hot, and a 50% point reduction" and people'd still focus on the nerf

Erm, who's giving GW flak for nerfing the Vendetta? You people are being way too dramatic, every Guard player knows that the Vendetta was going to need a nerf and there's been rather little complaining about the nerf other than the illogical reduction in carrying capacity given the Valkyrie and Vendetta share the same transport area.

At 9,000 Yens a pop the Vendetta is totally not worth it. But then I don't play AirCav, that's what marines are for. The IG should be blood and trenches, tanks and artillery optional.

M.

I respectfully disagree. Marines wouldn't know aircav if it kicked them in the head.

Anyway, the Vendetta with 6 transport becomes the perfect vehicle for suicide meltagun special weapon squads and throwaway command squads.

I thought it would be about 180 points as it was previously. With the reduction to 6 model capacity (so only command squads, psycher battle squads and storm troopers can use it) 170 is perfectly fair.

Drop pods > airplanes though.

180 would be a little steep imo, considering that 20 points more gets you melta-immunity, AV12 all over, BS4, far greater weapon utility (anti-horde as well as anti-armor) and 12-man transport capacity in the Stormraven. Don't overestimate that third lascannon.

 Still Standing wrote:
I thought it would be about 180 points as it was previously. With the reduction to 6 model capacity (so only command squads, psycher battle squads and storm troopers can use it) 170 is perfectly fair.

Wasn't there some rumour about vet squads being buffed and dropped to a 5 unit minimum? Or did I halucinate that?

Vet squads are 10 points cheaper, but have lost access to their third special weapon.

Also, the carapace armor upgrade is 15 points now.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Drop pods > airplanes though.

180 would be a little steep imo, considering that 20 points more gets you melta-immunity, AV12 all over, BS4, far greater weapon utility (anti-horde as well as anti-armor) and 12-man transport capacity in the Stormraven. Don't overestimate that third lascannon.

First off, it's not melta immunity. Melta still functions as a krak missile ++ against Stormravens. And the anti-horde for Stormravens costs 30 more points, because a single AC isn't cutting it. I still think Storrmraven are overcosted on a hull point/pt basis. They cost more than helldrakes and are so much easier to hull point out.

Secondly, drop pods are great until any turn after you drop in. Then you are stuck foot slogging. Which can be fatal in some matchups. It's much worse if you are not Space Wolves, actually.

 Panzer1944 wrote:
Well until they give us a tank that can do some decent damage to Riptides, Wraithknights, and other monstrous creatures it’s really the only thing in the IG arsenal that can do heavy damage in a single turn so even with the point increase all my flyers will still be seeing plenty of action. Am a little sadden by the larger then hopefully point increase (had my hopes at 150) still it’s pretty much a most have in any of my list.

Ummm you have beast hunter shells which enables you to one shot any MC at super long range....LOL IG players complaining is truly entertaining...

Beast Hunter shells do make me lol a lot. I might care if BA had any MCs, but guess what? We don't!

vortexdr wrote:

 Panzer1944 wrote:
Well until they give us a tank that can do some decent damage to Riptides, Wraithknights, and other monstrous creatures it’s really the only thing in the IG arsenal that can do heavy damage in a single turn so even with the point increase all my flyers will still be seeing plenty of action. Am a little sadden by the larger then hopefully point increase (had my hopes at 150) still it’s pretty much a most have in any of my list.

Ummm you have beast hunter shells which enables you to one shot any MC at super long range....LOL IG players complaining is truly entertaining...

With a specific army list from a FW book.

You'll note that this thread is about the Vendetta, and consequently about the changes to it from the upcoming IG codex.

We're all aware of the ABG list, but that's not relevant to the discussion when most IG players use the base codex for their gaming needs.

Instead, you could have offered in a reasonable tone that perhaps players might consider bringing an ABG allied formation to help.


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Martel732 wrote:
Beast Hunter shells do make me lol a lot. I might care if BA had any MCs, but guess what? We don't!

We get it Martel, BA are the worst thing ever.

No need to compare everything ever said to how awful BA are.

vortexdr wrote:

 Panzer1944 wrote:
Well until they give us a tank that can do some decent damage to Riptides, Wraithknights, and other monstrous creatures it’s really the only thing in the IG arsenal that can do heavy damage in a single turn so even with the point increase all my flyers will still be seeing plenty of action. Am a little sadden by the larger then hopefully point increase (had my hopes at 150) still it’s pretty much a most have in any of my list.

Ummm you have beast hunter shells which enables you to one shot any MC at super long range....LOL IG players complaining is truly entertaining...

As others have noted, Beast Hunter Shells aren't part of the IG codex, they're part of the FW IA1 Armored Battlegroup list, and even then only on one tank variant in two FoC slots.

Okay, so I've seen a leaked copy of the codex. The Vendetta is no longer a seperate unit and is now purchased as a 35 point upgrade. Regular Valkyries can no longer do grav chute insertions and is only doable by the Vendetta. Valkyries and Vendetta can no longer be taken in squadrons either.

Is it ironic that GW is taking flak on the modifications to a flyer?

It's only taking flak from people who thought a 12 av flier with three twin linked lascanons was fair at 130 points.

I for one think the new version is priced properly now.

One unit fixed. How many more to go?

 Jayden63 wrote:
Ill admit that I'm glad to see some IG vehicles get a price increase. The camera and vendetta were always underscored for what they gave you. I just hope the russes stay priced competitively. I'd like to see more main battle tanks than transports with overloaded guns for a change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Post made on phone. Sorry for spelling errors.

Clearly...you see so many IG lists winning tournaments these days. They definitely needed a nerf.

Derp.


Anyway on topic: Vendetta was fine at 130 points in this edition. In an edition where most armies are infantry-based, typically containing Death Stars with rerollable invulns, or 5+ wound MCs with invulns, 130 points for 3 lascannons that come in, at best, on Turn 2 is perfectly reasonable.

Marines don't get cheap lascannons because they're BS4, can take bikers with grav guns, can take EW guys with 4 wounds and a 3+ invuln, etc. Tau don't get cheap lascannons because they have Riptides etc. Eldar don't get cheap lascannons because they have Wave Serpents and Wraithknights.

Even when Chimeras were 55 points and Vendettas were 130, IG players were getting their asses handed to them in tournaments by newer armies. This kind of thing is only going to further increase the divide.

"Marines don't get cheap lascannons because they're BS4, can take bikers with grav guns, can take EW guys with 4 wounds and a 3+ invuln, etc. Tau don't get cheap lascannons because they have Riptides etc. Eldar don't get cheap lascannons because they have Wave Serpents and Wraithknights. "

Broken logic.

"Anyway on topic: Vendetta was fine at 130 points in this edition"

No, it wasn't. It completely invalidated Stormravens. Which are still overcosted because of the near-mandatory sponsons. Also, 130 was the price of a ground-bound Imperial walker, none of which can sport more than two weapons.

I agree with you on the Chimera increase, though. That makes ZERO sense.