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Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

So, I have been having a read through the new codex and am pleased by how Militarum Tempestus is looking. Senshinoman covered the contents of the codex well here, and there has been a lot of coverage via leaks up to now. However, as the codex is now released, I thought it would be a good time to start a fresh discussion on the ways in which the army can be used.

I feel the the strength of the book is the scoring nature of the Scion squad, something that the old Storm Troopers never had. Deepstriking squads of Scions will put out a decent amount of fire power and be able to put pressure on the weak points of the enemy, whilst also being able to score if any of them survive. This leads me to the conclusion that full squads of ten are the way to go, taking more fire power to die and being more efficient for orders. Speaking of which, the orders are pretty awesome:

shenshinoman wrote:
The Orders are as Follows :(Note the lack of First Line Fire! Second Line Fire!)
Directed Firestorm Sanctioned: the unit must shoot, but all fired weapons (no restrictions) are twinlinked for this shooting attack.
Autonomous Fire Sanctioned: The unit must make a shooting attack, all models in the unit gain Preferred Enemy for this attack.
Close Assault Doctrine Sanctioned: The Unit has the Crusader Special Rule for the rest of the turn.
Advance On Target: The unit gains Fleet for the rest of the turn
Suppression Doctrine Sanctioned: the unit must make a shooting attack, all hotshot lasguns and hot shot laspistols can only fire a single shot, but gain the Sniper and Pinning special rules. Also the unit cannot charge in the following Assault Phase.
Elimination Protocol Sanctioned: The unit must fire at a vehicle or Monstrous Creature. All shots fired at said target gain Rending.


A really decent collection I think. Directed Firestorm is Bring it Down on steroids, and the sniper/rending orders have some good uses.

The two formations seem really powerful, if expensive at 650 minimum with no upgrades. I am personally fond of the Valkyrie formation, as it is a way to access the deep strike rerolls and get free twin link and split fire rules. Dropping a squad of scions with meltas near a tank and squad, giving them preferred enemy or sniper with orders, sounds really good.

They do seem like an army that is tailor made to be an ally. The warlord traits are not amazing, but you can ally in one of the formation without using your ally slot. This can use up a large part of your points though, maybe even more than half your army if you kit them out properly.

So, anyone have any thoughts on this new Codex?

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
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Personally I will be utilizing the book as my primary force with a third Imperial Guard army (or Astra Militarium) to be made up using the new book. Personally I like the airborne formation, take that along with as many other scion squads and some Imperial Knights (converted) to run a Harakoni Warhawk army. I think maximizing the number of scoring deep striking units is a good way to go to get as many special weapons into striking distance turn two.

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I find that the Close Assault Doctrine Sanctioned is rather a waste. Their weapons are not assault, only the tempestor/commander have a close-combat weapon/pistol (with a 6 inch range), so you basically have crusader for a single model in the squad as the rest do nothing in the shooting phase, short of throwing a grenade (one of each) or use an assault weapon if you happen to have one (so either melta, GL or flamer) and even then, like IO said, the scions are not equipped for any type of assault role.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/06 18:41:05


 
   
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Whiteshield Conscript Trooper




NC

I am going to ally my Grey Knights in to an MT list, more as a throwback to the oldschool Daemonhunters than anything else. A list with almost every unit able to score and deepstrike seems like it has potential, we'll find out when I run it later this week.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I find that the Close Assault Doctrine Sanctioned is rather a waste. Their weapons are not assault, only the tempestor/commander have a close-combat weapon/pistol (with a 6 inch range), so you basically have crusader for a single model in the squad as the rest do nothing in the shooting phase, short of throwing a grenade (one of each) or use an assault weapon if you happen to have one (so either melta, GL or flamer) and even then, like IO said, the scions are not equipped for any type of assault role.

The Sergeants have CCWs/Pistols...and so do Commissars, who can be placed into a Scion unit.
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





UK

Mass Scion Drop Tactic:

1) Take an Inquisitor, depending on your preference, either in a Valkyrie with a useful retinue or in Terminator Armour so he can join the drop. Give him 3 Servo Skulls. Psyker, Psyoccolum, Liber Heresius are all good upgrades to consider in addition.

2) Optimise your Scions to be dropping in for close range fire, with plasma guns and melta's, maybe consider giving the Command Squad Volley Guns so you can establish a good anti-infantry firebase or give them max plasmas for massacring MC's.

3) Take a reserve roll buffer like an IG Officer of the Fleet -IG can also give you a good home objective camper and Vendettas if you so wish.

4) Create a suitable dropzone, or set of dropzones across the board with servo skulls. (You could even make some smoke grenades with coloured fluff for this)

5) At turn 2, deepstrike within 12'' of the skulls to have a reliable 1D6 scatter.

6) Focus fire to annihilate units in close proximity, using twin-linked, sniper and rending orders to deal with the more difficult threats

7) Hunker down in cover if playing against an offensive force, otherwise exploit your Move Though Cover USR to gradually gain ground towards the key objectives.

So:

Inquisitor with Terminator Armour, Psycannon, Psyker -125~ pts (SW henchmen, or Crusaders + Priests in a Valkyrie squad)

Scion Command Squad with 4x HSVG -125~ pts (depending on the level of MC's in the meta, may replace with plasmas)

Scion Squad I , 2x Plasma, 10 men -160 pts

Scion Squad II , 2x Plasma, 10 men -160 pts

Scion Squad III, 2x Meltagun, 10 men -150 pts

725~ pts total.




This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/10 10:50:19


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




WA, USA

I've been toying with a force of 1000-1500 points to act as a potential solo force or ally to larger games with my Sisters, and I'm going back and forth on the weapons.

Sisters do not hurt for melta, so for me it is a choice between plasma and volleygun. I'm thinking 2x plasma on the squads, and 4x volleygun on the command squad.

 Ouze wrote:

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Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller




 Kanluwen wrote:
Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I find that the Close Assault Doctrine Sanctioned is rather a waste. Their weapons are not assault, only the tempestor/commander have a close-combat weapon/pistol (with a 6 inch range), so you basically have crusader for a single model in the squad as the rest do nothing in the shooting phase, short of throwing a grenade (one of each) or use an assault weapon if you happen to have one (so either melta, GL or flamer) and even then, like IO said, the scions are not equipped for any type of assault role.

The Sergeants have CCWs/Pistols...and so do Commissars, who can be placed into a Scion unit.


So all that jazz to have 2 melee equipped model (with the Commissar being WS4, the sarge, WS3) have a better chance to get in a melee while the 4 other scions are just meat shields?
I still find that doctrine a waste. Add a hot shot laspistol and a CCW to each of them, and now you're talking, right now that seems to be waste of doctrine and I would personally just stand my ground and fire away, let them charge me and try to deal with my overwatch
   
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Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

Mr.Omega wrote:5) At turn 2, deepstrike within 12'' of the skulls to have a reliable 1D6 scatter.


This seems like the weakness of your strategy. The opponent just needs to move close to the skulls and they will be removed, which is not hard to do in a turn if you want to drop in their backfield.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:...I would personally just stand my ground and fire away, let them charge me and try to deal with my overwatch


There are many times that you would want to be in combat rather than out. For instance, against enemy ranged fire power you may get wiped out if you try to go toe to toe with them. There are many shooting units you could charge and keep safe/tie them up.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





UK

 Trickstick wrote:
Mr.Omega wrote:5) At turn 2, deepstrike within 12'' of the skulls to have a reliable 1D6 scatter.


This seems like the weakness of your strategy. The opponent just needs to move close to the skulls and they will be removed, which is not hard to do in a turn if you want to drop in their backfield.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:...I would personally just stand my ground and fire away, let them charge me and try to deal with my overwatch


There are many times that you would want to be in combat rather than out. For instance, against enemy ranged fire power you may get wiped out if you try to go toe to toe with them. There are many shooting units you could charge and keep safe/tie them up.


Enemy models have to get within a relatively close 6'' of servo skulls to remove them, you don't have to play them all in risky positions, and as an added strategy, you force your opponent to move units to neutralize them, the importance of which at times can't be understated. To accomplish this place them in awkward positions, such as very near to table edges (12'' bubble for the 1D6 scatter, so no DS effectiveness risk) or in open ground.

This last fact can also be exploited to make your riskless Servo Skull drop zone have less resistance to deal with for a turn - for their obscenely low cost, having the ability to dictate your opponent's movements is great.

Taking an extra Inquisitor for even more skulls is also an option, adding redundancy and duality to your list simultaneously if they're in identical roles.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/07 23:32:32


 
   
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Northampton

Ok... I love the look of the models, I love the fact that they are now a force unto their own...

But how do they win a game?

How do you play them?

I know and see how MEQ work, how normal guard hammer their opponent into oblivion, but these guys seem to be so surgical in their tactics that they need to be in the right place at the right time, with the right weapons or they die.

Am I blind to see where their strengths are as a primary army?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/08 13:38:54


Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.
 
   
Made in pl
Storm Trooper with Maglight




Breslau

Well, apparently they play a bit like mechvets due to very similar loadouts and things like that, but I am not sure if they're the way to go as a single army. They have absolutely no AA potential outside of a regular Valkyrie(no access to Vendetta) nor high S low Ap guns aside from meltas.

Compared to old(actual) veterans they look somewhat awful - 2 special weapons instead of 3, being forced to take a weak, expensive(in points) AV 11/10/10 transport and they cost much more(like 80pts more), but that's probably because vets are going to get nerfed badly in Astra Militarum codex because Scions have to stand out as the elite.

The way I see it, they'd work great with Imperial Knights in the way that you drive up turn one, hide behind buildings with your wet paper tauroxes and then you perform an alpha strike - with your hotshot lasguns, plasmas supported by the twin-linked or preferred enemy orders and a hotshot volley gun-totting command squad you might be able to butcher enemy troops, hoping to get rid of the scoring units supported by the fire of your taurox primes armed with TL autocannons and the Taurox Battle Cannons, putting s7 shots into either the infantry(to help your scions) or sides of enemy light tanks/transports(depends on how they roll).

And then the, say, two knights go in, either landing two S9 Ap1 large templates on the heaviest targets(I'm looking at you, Land Raiders and Russes) in attempt to outright blast them apart(with large template and BS4 it's really, really hard to miss a big tank, even with above average scatter) if not close enough to benefit from melta rule, or covering everything under 4 Knight battle cannon large templates for more slaughter.

If your alpha strike succeeds, you can reembark into your wet paper boxes and rush off into the distant scoring lands leaving two towering steel behemoths for the enemy to deal with.

Of course it has no anti-air capability, whatsoever, but with blasting everything other than flyers into smithereens you don't have to worry that much about those, especially with a few scoring units.


Other option is a Valkyrie Scion squad spam supported by the airborne formation from the codex, giving you a plenty of lascannon shots in the air while raining men.

I'm talking 8 valkyries with 2 command squads and 6 ten-man Scion teams. That's a list someone invented on this forum and it looks fairly solid with the amount of scoring units, lascannon shots from the sky and Scion badassness. Would mention by name but I forgot who was it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/08 20:02:30


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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

I'm holding out hope that forgeworld will open them up to taking Avenger Strike Fighters. I have three that I have no idea what to do with, and I love the idea of a small elite infantry guard army backed up by heavy air support assets.

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 Klerych wrote:


I'm talking 8 valkyries with 2 command squads and 6 ten-man Scion teams. That's a list someone invented on this forum and it looks fairly solid with the amount of scoring units, lascannon shots from the sky and Scion badassness. Would mention by name but I forgot who was it.


That would mean you would lose the number of your games for not having models on the table turn one and even if you did there would not be enough to survive what a lot of armies could bring to the table, you would be crushed. I have been toying with a few ideas but it definitely seems that this army was more designed to be an "Allied Detachment" moreso then a stand alone Codex.

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Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

The best MT only list I have figured out so far is a bunch of 5 man 2 melta or 2 plasma troops and two 4 plasma command squads all with Taurox transports with volley gun and gatling cannon. Deploy the transports on the board and DS the MTs. You need a comms relay and at least one infantry unit on the board. It doesn't look too bad but I will never buy a Taurox model so I will never play it.

Otherwise allies allow you a strong board presence but still take your scoring MTs. The formation is pretty cool actually and I already had the models for it. I am just waiting for the AM codex to release to have a final opinion on it as it looks like it will only get better.

The new orders are absolutely brutal against most any opponent. The sniper one makes most MC really take notice and if you run into a a riptide the rending on a unit of 10 is very nice, or if you have the plasma go for the TL or preferred enemy.

These new orders are incredibly powerful and when applied correctly will make a real difference in games. People will definitely remember when you shoot the rear armour of a tank with a 10 MT unit of rending lasguns and actually average 2 HP with the lasguns alone.
   
Made in us
Monstrous Master Moulder




Cleveland, Ohio, USA

IG are a sledgehammer.

Scions are a scalpel.

Brief overview of the 'dex leads me to believe the best use of them is as an allied force, coupled with an Inquisitorial detachment. Deep striking squads within Servo-Skull range for precision and laying down the correct type of fire amplified via orders.

They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear. 
   
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 ansacs wrote:
The best MT only list I have figured out so far is a bunch of 5 man 2 melta or 2 plasma troops and two 4 plasma command squads all with Taurox transports with volley gun and gatling cannon. Deploy the transports on the board and DS the MTs. You need a comms relay and at least one infantry unit on the board. It doesn't look too bad but I will never buy a Taurox model so I will never play it.


I thought if they were dedicated Transports the Squad could not be in Reserve while the Dedicated Transport is on the table as they count as one unit for purposes of FOC correct? Or am I mistaken? Also I personally think the best build for the Taurox is the Missile Launcher and Autocannon as you already have plenty of anti-infantry ability with the Scions alone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/10 04:35:06


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Storm Trooper with Maglight




Breslau

 ansacs wrote:
Also I personally think the best build for the Taurox is the Missile Launcher and Autocannon as you already have plenty of anti-infantry ability with the Scions alone.


But the missile launcher is 20 additional searchlights(lol) for, what, 2 S8 shots? I'd rather save those points up and spend on more/better geared Scions/allies while keeping the Taurox Battle Cannon which grants you another Autocannon blast shot and whooping 20 points to spend on more bodies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/11 10:18:57


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Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

Yea, I think keep taurox primes cheap as possible. Base price

depending on opponent/army comp run them empty. and deep strike in.

However I would wait to see synergies with IG before doing anything for sure. Especially since it has formations built into the codex as rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/11 10:26:18


People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

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The T-Prime looks the best (so far) with the battle cannon and auto-cannons for target synergy.

But why would I field one? Scions look to be excellent for fly-by dropping, and destroying prime targets. Then probably being killed right after.

While I like the idea of the Taurox, I honestly think it's too flimsy to be the core of a Mechanized Infantry wall.

Although, it could be employed much like DE skiffs. They manage to make fast, lightly armored, vehicles work really well.
   
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on the forum. Obviously

DE skiffs can get Jink saves and invuls. Primes can't.

What I have
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~1660

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UK

I'm still swearing by the idea of the TL Gatling and TL Hot Shot Volley Gun, to give you more 33% firepower than a DE Venom.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
DE skiffs can get Jink saves and invuls. Primes can't.


Using a camo net and trying to get 25% cover at every opportunity after moving may save your bacon. And the best offence is always the best defence - if you get far enough to put your Scions in a critical position, it doesn't matter if your Taurox survives past that point.

Also, if IG allies are your thing, maybe start the game at a crawl and then rapidly expand into the board later by using LRBT's as cover.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/11 11:41:45


 
   
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on the forum. Obviously

That is true. I don't play MT / Guard though; I just like to drop into tactics threads so I can come up with counter-tactics.

MT can't ally with any of my xenos anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/11 11:45:32


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~1660

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Kovnik






Are the formations worth it? I really like the idea of adding them to my Space Wolves and maybe make them my new main army.
   
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Storm Trooper with Maglight




Breslau

 tommse wrote:
Are the formations worth it? I really like the idea of adding them to my Space Wolves and maybe make them my new main army.


Well, I think that Space Wolves could benefit from the valkyrie formation, but remember that it'd cost around 1000-1200pts depending on the upgrades. That'd leave you with pretty few points to spend on your Wolves.

At 1000pts you can get this(all those units are required by formation):

-Bare Commissar
-Command Squad with 4 volley guns
-3x 5man scion squad with twin meltas
-4 valkyries with lascannons and multiple rocket pods

Pretty nice surgical strike force, given the fact that everyone that disembarks from valkyries has twin-linked, so those meltas -will- hit and you get 4 lascannon shots from the sky while busting 16 s4 ap3 shots with the command squad as it bellows orders at the scions for additional benefit.

Then again I'm not sure if you wouldn't be better off with the stormraven/2stormtalon dataslate formation while spending rest of the points on your Wolves.

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Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

You really want to take full scion squads though, it is just not cost effective to spend so many points buffing inferior troop numbers. Minmax squads suit normal deepstriking far better, with just a command and two scions as allies.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

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Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

Also I am of the belief that the volley guns are not worth it.

Salvo on a non relentless platform is a waste of time(IMO)

If I was going to get it it would be limited to the taurox prime with gatling punisher.

People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

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Hardened Veteran Guardsman




Shrewsbury

I did some maths today on the orders.

Assuming 10 Scions with no upgrades:

No Orders
19 shots, ~4 Dead MEQ.

Directed Firestorm
19 Shots, ~5-6 Dead MEQ

Autonomous Fire Sanctioned
19 shots, ~5-6 Dead MEQ

Suppression Doctrine Sanctioned
10 shots, ~3-4 Dead MEQ

Elimination Protocol Sanctioned
19 shots, 4 Dead MEQ

However that's only taking into account the ability to kill marines.

In terms of best orders to use when...

When Shooting MEQ with non-blast weapons:
Autonomous Fire Sanctioned (Still get to re-roll gets hot and those pesky 1's to wound with Plasma guns)

When Shooting MEQ with blast weapons:
Directed Firestorm (Reroling 1's does nothing for scatter. Only useful for grenade launchers and only with frags).

When Shooting TEQ without AP2 guns:
Elimination Protocol Sanctioned

When Shooting TEQ WITH AP2 guns:
Autonomous Fire Sanctioned

When Shooting T5+ with a 3+ Save (Wraith Knight):
Suppression Doctrine Sanctioned

When Shooting T5+ with a 2+ Save (Riptide):
Elimination Protocol Sanctioned

When Shooting T3 or less:
Directed Firestorm (Potential for more wounds than Autonomous Fire but they are the same on average)

When Shooting from out of Rapid Fire range at anything with T3 or better:
Suppression Doctrine Sanctioned

When Shooting at ANY Vehicle with only Hot-Shots:
Elimination Protocol Sanctioned (But if you're close enough charge it instead and krak it to death on rear armour)

When Shooting at ANY Vehicle with Melta/Plasma:
Directed Firestorm

When you are in a combat with initiative 6 opponents or less:
Close Assault Doctrine (It's all about the extra D3 to sweep or not be swept)

When you want to run:
Close Assault Doctrine (Roll two and pick highest is better than a reroll every time)

When you want to charge:
Advance on Target (Only way to reroll charge distance. if you need to krak a Russ to death).


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/11 16:43:19


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McKenzie, TN

Trickstick wrote:You really want to take full scion squads though, it is just not cost effective to spend so many points buffing inferior troop numbers. Minmax squads suit normal deepstriking far better, with just a command and two scions as allies.
This is only true for one unit per command squad as the command squads can only issue 1 order a turn. This means the rest of them can be double special weapon 5 man squads to leverage as much plasma and melta as you can.

tommse wrote:Are the formations worth it? I really like the idea of adding them to my Space Wolves and maybe make them my new main army.

The flyer formation is actually pretty great. It is strange though as you are left with so few pts to work with in your primary. I actually think that inquisition might be the best primary hunkered down in an AV14 fortification. Gaining TL and split fire when you disembark is incredible.

Klerych wrote:But the missile launcher is 20 additional searchlights(lol) for, what, 2 S8 shots? I'd rather save those points up and spend on more/better geared Scions/allies while keeping the Taurox Battle Cannon which grants you another Autocannon blast shot and whooping 20 points to spend on more bodies.
You got the quote wrong. I would actually say the Gatling and Hot Shot Volley Gun is a great loadout as the MT themselves are brutal against vehicles and MC. Even a 7 lasgun and 2 plasma given the rending order will murder most AV10 rear vehicles and the sniper option can just about kill most MC. They become vastly better with the formations TLing.
   
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Storm Trooper with Maglight




Breslau

 ansacs wrote:
You got the quote wrong. I would actually say the Gatling and Hot Shot Volley Gun is a great loadout...


Well, it sure does have some potential with them being fast vehicles, but then again two of them would cost 180pts with no other upgrades. You know what I could get for 10 pts less? A Leman Russ Punisher with melta sponsons and hull-mounted lascannon. That's 2 MM shots, 1 lascannon shot and murdering amount of 20 S5 shots.

Love the idea of tacticool paratrooper army supported by light vehicles(that imho do not belong to 40k battlefields but whatever! ) but I'd rather get some cheap troop unit to hold home objective while putting 2 punisher squadron with tank commander as the allied HQ. The role will be similar as with Tauroxes, but at the price of mobility it'll get me a steamroller that can't be killed with the same guns that the enemy would use on my Scions unlike the Taurox. It can deal with tanks, transports and infantry and with the forced split fire tank order the two tanks in the squadron can shoot 2 different targets or make sure that one is extremely dead. I mean.. if twin-linked by an inquisitor or AM psyker, 40 s5 shots will even be able to hurt some flyers.

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