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actually in the night lords trilogy when there secondary fortress was being attacked by the newly reformed legions puts the whole SM vs CSM in a better perspective for me CSM are better warriors in that they have training and talents where the SM are better soldiers with better squad cohesion and such .

also on a unrelated note other good books to read
storm of iron (one of the ones that got me into reading black library fiction)
Dark apostle (the first one IMO puts the conflict between imperial guard and CSM in a more realistic perspective for me)

 Psienesis wrote:
... They do make more Chaos Space Marines. They raid the Imperium for supplies of gene-seed, steal it from fallen Loyalists, and Fabius Bile has more-or-less figured out how to make it.

They make them alright, but at a much slower rate than the IoM replaces it's losses. Thus either Chaos has a higher kill ratio, or Chaos would have been defeated already.

The argument that SM fight more and die more simply because of that is moot, since Chaos fight themselves all the time. It's how their rank system works, the ones on top are there because they got rid of the competitors. They are very Darwinian.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Because the good guys always have to win. Even if the bad guys are more experienced, pumped full of warp dust and have the same wargear the good guys do.

Read Storm of Iron, Iron Warriors obliterate Imperial Fists and Imperial Guard, and the Iron Warriors aren't even pumped full of Warp Dust

It might be that the loyalists are getting their new mar 8 'errant' armor and their mark 3 'sunfury' plasma pistols and all the fancy new gunships and tanks.

I agree to Gjd123. They have all the forge worlds and, not to forget, all the STCs which give them a huge advantage.

Sometimes it feels awkward but maybe the people who like normal SM have higher numbers so they choose to please the major group.

Also, I read a lot of books that have equal fights and equal destruction (ex. on malodrax the entire Imperial fists 1st company is wiped out with almost no losses to the Iron warriors

 Cursed Founding wrote:
It might be that the loyalists are getting their new mar 8 'errant' armor and their mark 3 'sunfury' plasma pistols and all the fancy new gunships and tanks.

I agree to Gjd123. They have all the forge worlds and, not to forget, all the STCs which give them a huge advantage.

Sometimes it feels awkward but maybe the people who like normal SM have higher numbers so they choose to please the major group.

Also, I read a lot of books that have equal fights and equal destruction (ex. on malodrax the entire Imperial fists 1st company is wiped out with almost no losses to the Iron warriors

Well, keeping in mind that Errant armour isn't wide spread yet since its production has just been launched. Also keep in mind its only real difference from Aquila Armour is the Neck Guard which protects against projectiles ricochating off the upper chest and into the jaw/chin or throat. It is also slightly more mobile. I do agree that the Imperium may have slightly better equipment and weapons but it doesn't really do any justice for the differing amount of casualties. And Chaos Marines have their own STC's and forgeworlds.

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 Inkubas wrote:
While I do see plot armor in books and the UM movie overall, I'd argue that its far from one side and more of a grim dark stalemate. There are amazing loyalist wins and crushing defeats. Heck, I recently read a book where AL destroyed an entire chapter with no losses. As per one on one combat and skill, I'd think of it as special ops vs mercenaries. It can go both ways but chances are special ops wins more often. My .02 anyway

Yes, an AL agent secretly destroyed the Crimson Consuls Chapter I believe. Now I find that the most stupid and unrealistic event to ever occur in 40k. There is no way an entire chapter of SM's could be dealt with so easily. Chapter Masters are very careful and meticulate with the engagements they wonder into and the fact the Consuls fell for such a thing is foolish beyond belief.


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 Silverthorne wrote:
Loyalists have a monster logisitical advantage over CSM. Especially since the SM will run into the CSM usually at the tail end of a raid, when the traitors are low on ammo and somewhat banged up anyway. There is a ton of churn in the NCO ranks for the traitors too, which is really, really bad from an overall war perspective, since that's the most critical rank bracket.

Plus, I get the impression the SM are really trained and optimized to go after the hardest targets, things the Guard can't take down. CSM are more optimized to do the most damage possible in the shortest amount of time, typically to soft targets. Both are legitimate taskings, but in a paper-scissors rock matchup, you can see how SM might have the advantage.

And the time dilation of the warp probably hurts more than it helps the traitors. Aside from time in transit, a few weeks or months between campaigns, SM are perpetually in combat, 24/7. CSM might experience centuries between campaigns for their skills to atrophy, even though outside only a few days have passed.

Chaos Marines optimized for "soft" targets? Uhh, I don't believe that. I don't see how SM have that significant of an advantage. People keep pointing at logistics and saying SM's win because of it. I guess Chaos Marines are armed with auto guns and sticks? Come on, lets be real, SM's may hold a slight advantage in logistics but I don't believe it's enough to doom CSM's. Lets keep in mind the technology that the Imperium has lost. For instance, Chaos Marines still wield missle launchers that carry 4 missles instead of 1. Most technology that the Imperium lost the CSM's still have.

One SM vs one CSM can be anyone's game? Add a chapter vs a warband and same thing. If you want realism then its a coin toss depending on: logistics, supply, numbers, technology,training, luck, lay of land and commanders. With that said for the most part I would say that SM have a slight edge with what the whole not getting stabbed in the back thing.

Also what's so far fetched with AL destroying a chapter? During the HH much greater tricks took place. With lots list being beat left to right. Heck even Abbadon is winning the war.

I don't get this whole logistics argument.

SM have the Imperium behind them, but do CSM have to carve their bullets out of wood?

I'm pretty sure being able to infuse anything with a daemon should trump anything. In all the books with Chaos pretty much every piece of machinery has some sort of daemon bound within it.

Plus CSM builders and forgeworlds have NO RESTRICTIONS. That alone makes a huge difference, plus they have warp-given knowledge and help.

The people fusing daemons into things is the Dark Mechanicus, who hold no particular allegiance to the Legions. The various warbands and such need to barter/trade with the DM to get them to make things for them... meanwhile, the Tech-Priests of the DM are all pretty much loons, and would rather work on whatever Mad Science! project they have going on, rather than building bolters or bolter-rounds and such for some SM.

 herpguy wrote:
I don't get this whole logistics argument.

SM have the Imperium behind them, but do CSM have to carve their bullets out of wood?

I'm pretty sure being able to infuse anything with a daemon should trump anything. In all the books with Chaos pretty much every piece of machinery has some sort of daemon bound within it.

Plus CSM builders and forgeworlds have NO RESTRICTIONS. That alone makes a huge difference, plus they have warp-given knowledge and help.

The IoM also has to use a lot of it's material advantage getting the material to the war zone and keeping the keepers of it from being corrupted. Moving stuff by armored car across the galaxy isnt cheap. Chaos on the other hand has some short supply lines, made all the shorter by the power of the warp.

 Psienesis wrote:
The people fusing daemons into things is the Dark Mechanicus, who hold no particular allegiance to the Legions. The various warbands and such need to barter/trade with the DM to get them to make things for them... meanwhile, the Tech-Priests of the DM are all pretty much loons, and would rather work on whatever Mad Science! project they have going on, rather than building bolters or bolter-rounds and such for some SM.

Except, you know, the Warpsmiths who are a very important part of the warbands and a central part of the Iron Warriors Legion.

The Chirumeks as well.

The CSM are not so foolish as to rely on the DM to build things for them when the Warpsmiths are already absolute masters of that craft.

Warpsmiths that follow a warband or a Legion around may not have access to an actual Forge from which to build the things he's going to tie daemons into. And if your Warpsmith is spending all his time making bolter rounds, plasma flasks, and maintaining power armor, when's he going to have time to build a LR for them?

This is also the case for those Legions that don't even have a Warpsmith. They need to raid for slaves and supplies in order to trade to the DM for ammo and supplies, in order for them to raid for slaves and supplies in order to trade to the DM for ammo and supplies...

As far as supply lines go I see it this way:

Imagine you have to transport supplies through a very dangerous jungle and there are many things that can cause the jungle to randomly eat you.

However, your enemy never has to worry about that and actually has the carnivorous jungle creatures on their side, and can just waltz right through.

The jungle represents the warp where CSM bypass one of the largest hurdles in all of 40K by not having to worry about the warp randomly swallowing them whole (unless of course they really piss some dark entity off)

It is EXTREMELY big plot armor that one of the big SM heros doesn't evaporate in a random warp jump to some random planet.

I think that effectually the difference comes down to individual versus gestalt power. This meaning that the individual Chaos Space Marine, a Veteran of the Long War blessed by the dark gods with eldritch power should, and arguable is, more powerful than your run of the mill Space Marine. In a one on one fight a CSM should win against a space marine simply because of experience, as was mentioned. Unfortunately by definition a Chaos Space Marine is an agent of CHAOS. Meaning there is little rhyme or reason to the warfare of a Chaos chapter. Because of the highly individualistic nature of a CSM he simply does not play well with other CSM and that is the inherent flaw.

Much like Roman Soldiers would regularly defeat larger forces of Gaulish Barbarians through sheer discipline, Space Marines triumph because of their strict adherence to brotherhood and order. A smaller force of Space Marines aught to triumph simply because there is a sense of shared purpose: e'spirit d'corps, that makes a company of space marines more than any individual member.

The inherent flaw of the CSM is also the inherent downfall of the Barbarian tribes of ancient Europe, and lets face it CSM are just Techno-Barbarians. The disorganized, though warlike, culture of the Germans or Gauls or Picts valued individual Glory. Where as the Romans valued the "Glory of Rome" and actively encouraged a sense of brotherhood among their troops. The average Gaul was more experienced, more aggressive, and more talented a soldier than a Roman legionnaire, but failed to appreciate the importance of teamwork.

The downfall of the CSM military doctrine is ironically also the source of their power. Chaos is powerful force, but in embracing it you also abandon the brotherhood which had made the Chapter powerful.

Its like the CSM never watched Pokemon! Come on guys! Its all about TEAMWORK!!!

That's a very good way to put it, Devious.

 Psienesis wrote:
Warpsmiths that follow a warband or a Legion around may not have access to an actual Forge from which to build the things he's going to tie daemons into. And if your Warpsmith is spending all his time making bolter rounds, plasma flasks, and maintaining power armor, when's he going to have time to build a LR for them?

This is also the case for those Legions that don't even have a Warpsmith. They need to raid for slaves and supplies in order to trade to the DM for ammo and supplies, in order for them to raid for slaves and supplies in order to trade to the DM for ammo and supplies...

Chirumeks, as said. Servitors. Various slaves.

Much like the Imperium does.

The Chirumeks probably do most of the things in the maintenance - manufacturing spectrum of bolt rounds, PA etc, with the Warpsmiths doing the more difficult things and the simple things like welding on big metal plates onto starships is something left to (supervised) slaves.

There is no reason whatsoever that CSM somehow need to bargain for their equipment.

Devious wrote:
I think that effectually the difference comes down to individual versus gestalt power. This meaning that the individual Chaos Space Marine, a Veteran of the Long War blessed by the dark gods with eldritch power should, and arguable is, more powerful than your run of the mill Space Marine. In a one on one fight a CSM should win against a space marine simply because of experience, as was mentioned. Unfortunately by definition a Chaos Space Marine is an agent of CHAOS. Meaning there is little rhyme or reason to the warfare of a Chaos chapter. Because of the highly individualistic nature of a CSM he simply does not play well with other CSM and that is the inherent flaw.

Much like Roman Soldiers would regularly defeat larger forces of Gaulish Barbarians through sheer discipline, Space Marines triumph because of their strict adherence to brotherhood and order. A smaller force of Space Marines aught to triumph simply because there is a sense of shared purpose: e'spirit d'corps, that makes a company of space marines more than any individual member.

The inherent flaw of the CSM is also the inherent downfall of the Barbarian tribes of ancient Europe, and lets face it CSM are just Techno-Barbarians. The disorganized, though warlike, culture of the Germans or Gauls or Picts valued individual Glory. Where as the Romans valued the "Glory of Rome" and actively encouraged a sense of brotherhood among their troops. The average Gaul was more experienced, more aggressive, and more talented a soldier than a Roman legionnaire, but failed to appreciate the importance of teamwork.

The downfall of the CSM military doctrine is ironically also the source of their power. Chaos is powerful force, but in embracing it you also abandon the brotherhood which had made the Chapter powerful.

Its like the CSM never watched Pokemon! Come on guys! Its all about TEAMWORK!!!

Even though this is a very good point that is still assuming that CSM are raving bands of lunatics. Many warbands operate not much differently from SM chapters. CSM also as a whole are pretty wary in the fluff. They don't get to survive thousands of years by charging at every enemy. Usually they orchestrate events and insert as a special ops team to do cleanup or complete an objective.

And the craziness of people like Berzerkers is often overplayed.

Sure, once they are in melee with you things get ugly, but otherwise they can be rather controlled.

 Exergy wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
... They do make more Chaos Space Marines. They raid the Imperium for supplies of gene-seed, steal it from fallen Loyalists, and Fabius Bile has more-or-less figured out how to make it.

They make them alright, but at a much slower rate than the IoM replaces it's losses. Thus either Chaos has a higher kill ratio, or Chaos would have been defeated already.

No, they survive because they can run and hide in the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom.

The other misconception is that most Chaos Marines are veterans of the Heresy. That's a minority. Most of the veterans of the Heresy are dead or transcended to daemonhood. Heck, most of the Traitors were killed in the Heresy. It's all there in the fluff. People just like to skip that part. The Legions didn't just give up and wander off. They ground themselves to burger at Terra, then were hounded and chased until the remnants were forced to retreat where the loyalists couldn't follow. The remaining Chaos Marines are mostly substandard replacements made from stolen geneseed.

The argument that SM fight more and die more simply because of that is moot, since Chaos fight themselves all the time. It's how their rank system works, the ones on top are there because they got rid of the competitors. They are very Darwinian.

It's also a ridiculously awful way to run a military, lol. Because it means the strong lead the weak by eliminating the not quite as strong. And strength itself isn't a leadership quality.

The Orks choose leaders the same way. And you see how successful they tend to be.

 da001 wrote:
Plot armor. The good guys always win.

It gets really annoying. In "Know no Fear", you read about some SM obliterating full squads of CSM with their mighty bolters while the enemy fire (bolters) only scratches their Power Armor.

This is just cheap and easy narrative device common to action stories. Space Marine power armor is only ever as powerful as it needs to be in any given situation.

If you read the Night Lords trilogy, on more than one occasion the loyalist Space Marines die ridiculously easily because the Night Lords need to win. It has nothing to do with the good guys always winning. Because they lose in the fluff too. I hate to pick on ADB because I like the guy, but another example that occurs to me is the battle at Armatura, where the World Eaters do everything wrong that you possibly could in warfighting, and still manage to win because angry. Where the Ultramarines have some hardened defensive position, and Kharn defeats it with the sheer power of angry and charging right at it. It's just that these stories aren't being written with technical accuracy as the main concern. Otherwise Marine vs Marine stories would actually be fairly boring.


Remember though, the most important thing to take away from 40K is that modern Space Marines are actually better than Crusade-era space Marines. A big part of the Codex Astartes was removing all the substandard recruiting and training processes that were prevalent during the Crusade when the Legions were trying to churn out Space Marines as fast as possible to keep up with their high casualty rates. Basically, the Ultramarines were the best of the Legions, and the Codex Astartes was designed to turn all the Space Marines into Ultramarines. It's funny to think of because everything in 40K is supposed to be archaic and outdated, but that works in the Space Marines' favor because 10,000 years ago was the best time to be a Space Marine. So being stuck doing it the same way means they're still doing it the best way possible.

Devious wrote:
I think that effectually the difference comes down to individual versus gestalt power. This meaning that the individual Chaos Space Marine, a Veteran of the Long War blessed by the dark gods with eldritch power should, and arguable is, more powerful than your run of the mill Space Marine. In a one on one fight a CSM should win against a space marine simply because of experience, as was mentioned. Unfortunately by definition a Chaos Space Marine is an agent of CHAOS. Meaning there is little rhyme or reason to the warfare of a Chaos chapter. Because of the highly individualistic nature of a CSM he simply does not play well with other CSM and that is the inherent flaw.

Much like Roman Soldiers would regularly defeat larger forces of Gaulish Barbarians through sheer discipline, Space Marines triumph because of their strict adherence to brotherhood and order. A smaller force of Space Marines aught to triumph simply because there is a sense of shared purpose: e'spirit d'corps, that makes a company of space marines more than any individual member.

The inherent flaw of the CSM is also the inherent downfall of the Barbarian tribes of ancient Europe, and lets face it CSM are just Techno-Barbarians. The disorganized, though warlike, culture of the Germans or Gauls or Picts valued individual Glory. Where as the Romans valued the "Glory of Rome" and actively encouraged a sense of brotherhood among their troops. The average Gaul was more experienced, more aggressive, and more talented a soldier than a Roman legionnaire, but failed to appreciate the importance of teamwork.

The downfall of the CSM military doctrine is ironically also the source of their power. Chaos is powerful force, but in embracing it you also abandon the brotherhood which had made the Chapter powerful.

Its like the CSM never watched Pokemon! Come on guys! Its all about TEAMWORK!!!

THIS. Exactly! Loyal Space Marines train and train and are indoctrinated in the glory of the Emperor and Imperium. They believe in a greater cause than themselves.

CSM do what? Murder and care slaves? Raid worlds and kill PDF to a man? CSM are *very* violent and daemonically strong, but they are undisciplined.

 herpguy wrote:

Devious wrote:
I think that effectually the difference comes down to individual versus gestalt power. This meaning that the individual Chaos Space Marine, a Veteran of the Long War blessed by the dark gods with eldritch power should, and arguable is, more powerful than your run of the mill Space Marine. In a one on one fight a CSM should win against a space marine simply because of experience, as was mentioned. Unfortunately by definition a Chaos Space Marine is an agent of CHAOS. Meaning there is little rhyme or reason to the warfare of a Chaos chapter. Because of the highly individualistic nature of a CSM he simply does not play well with other CSM and that is the inherent flaw.

Much like Roman Soldiers would regularly defeat larger forces of Gaulish Barbarians through sheer discipline, Space Marines triumph because of their strict adherence to brotherhood and order. A smaller force of Space Marines aught to triumph simply because there is a sense of shared purpose: e'spirit d'corps, that makes a company of space marines more than any individual member.

The inherent flaw of the CSM is also the inherent downfall of the Barbarian tribes of ancient Europe, and lets face it CSM are just Techno-Barbarians. The disorganized, though warlike, culture of the Germans or Gauls or Picts valued individual Glory. Where as the Romans valued the "Glory of Rome" and actively encouraged a sense of brotherhood among their troops. The average Gaul was more experienced, more aggressive, and more talented a soldier than a Roman legionnaire, but failed to appreciate the importance of teamwork.

The downfall of the CSM military doctrine is ironically also the source of their power. Chaos is powerful force, but in embracing it you also abandon the brotherhood which had made the Chapter powerful.

Its like the CSM never watched Pokemon! Come on guys! Its all about TEAMWORK!!!

Even though this is a very good point that is still assuming that CSM are raving bands of lunatics. Many warbands operate not much differently from SM chapters. CSM also as a whole are pretty wary in the fluff. They don't get to survive thousands of years by charging at every enemy. Usually they orchestrate events and insert as a special ops team to do cleanup or complete an objective.

I totally agree. Much in the same way the SM are portrayed as simply the goody-two-shoes Ultramarines, I think that the CSM are often stereotyped as the World Eaters: Khornate bersekers who carve their way through the Galaxy one chainaxe at a time. Sadly my favorite CSM chapter, the Alpha Legion, is the complete opposite of this stereotype: cold, calculating, guilesome, duplicitous, and utterly ruthless. I think it's these complex, multifaceted CSM chapters that end up falling to the wayside for many players. These chapters like the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, or the Thousand Sons strike me as organized, ruthless machines of destruction that would in every respect be the equals (or betters) of their SM counterparts.

I still believe my post is relevant and holds water, but it's important to recognize the great diversity of tactics and chapters across the realm of Chaos. My post merely singles out the bog-standard khornate chapters that maim, and kill, and procure skulls for skull thrones or whatever (boring).

And yes, they need to make the CSM seem more dangeous, and an actual threat to mankind. That'd be epic.

And yes, they need to make the CSM seem more dangeous, and an actual threat to mankind. That'd be epic.

Wow, after reading some of these posts, it appears like chaos is not bad enough. Chaos is a MAJOR threat. It's not THE threat. I believe that spot is for the Tyranids but it's a plague that is crippling the imperium of man. The strength and skill of SM and CSM is based on the author and how much they want to empower or enfeeble. Don't believe me? Play Space Marine where one SM is able to stop an Ork Waaagh and a demonic incursion single handed. That doesn't exist in the books. That doesn't exist on the table. Other games/books are more balanced and fair but again, it can vary.

Let's just run a hypothetical situation space marine chapter comes across a chaos war band. The results will vary. It's not like the Space marines are going to be the clear winners every time, nor does it mean that the chaos warband will be able to destroy and crush the space marines. If the Space wolves meet Iron warriors the result would be different than if Dark Angels meet Death Guard. Does it mean that if DA lose they suck? Or does it mean that Iron warriors aren't as strong as SW? It can go either way. This is compounded by the fact that all the information we have is based on fluff that can/will change depending on author.

There is no ONE team (CSM/SM) that is stronger or better.

I'd put this on par with a discussion on who would win in a fight Jesus or Superman.

Alright, let me go over CSM discipline and let me be very clear about this. CSM DO in fact have a cause, a cause that actually united all their kin under one single force 13 times a count. CSM's lifelong goal is to get to Terra. It's like a child going to bed at night dreaming of that one toy. CSM's veery badly want to reach Terra and rip that bewildered corpse from his throne. They want to gloriously charge the Imperial Palace and plunder Terras cities. They commit an act known as the Crimson Path. They turn every world leading their way to Terra into a Daemon World. By thus means, reinforcements and great tithes of Daemons can be summoned from the warp, ready to reap Terra. This goal is what disciplines CSM's. Every CSM and SM are extremely smart, and I mean almost if not not as smart as Albert Einstein. They know what they must do to win, and they very frequently use teamwork. This is probably CSM's biggest misconception is the fact they dont use teamwork. They do. They have tactics, strategy, and definitely power.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Alright, let me go over CSM discipline and let me be very clear about this. CSM DO in fact have a cause, a cause that actually united all their kin under one single force 13 times a count. CSM's lifelong goal is to get to Terra. It's like a child going to bed at noght dreaming of that one toy. CSM's veery badly want to reach Terra and rip that bewildered corpse from his throne. They want to gloriously charge the Imperial Palace and plunder Terras cities. They commit an act known as the Crimson Path. They turn every world leading their way to Terra into a Daemon World. By thus means, reinforcements and great tithes of Daemons can be summoned from the warp, ready to reap Terra. This goal is what disciplines CSM's. Every CSM and SM are extremely smart, and I mean almost if not not as smart as Albert

You're confusing the Black Legion with the the entirety of chaos marines, there's probably just as many (if not more) who turned away from emps purely for their own reasons, such as Huron or the myriad of rogue SM. Also, the plot armour point is applicable in every single faction. The Ultramarines win in Uriel Ventris' books for the same reasons the Night Lords do in their books. They're the protagonists. Out of all the factions, the Tau/Eldar arguably have strongest plot armour atm.
Not all CSM want to depose Emps with the furor that BL and to a lesser extent, the Word Bearers do.
The second largest group of CSM is no longer a ex-legion, but now it's Huron's band of renegades and pirates, and I'm not entirely sure what they want, but it's definitely doesn't coincide with Abbadon's dream.
,

"The Imperium is a weak old man, ready and waiting to be broken apart by his vengeful sons." -Lufgt Huron, Tyrant of Badab

That is Hurons exact words. What do you think he wants to do? Sit around? I don't think so, he wants to tear the Imperium down and the best way to do that is killing the Emperor and plundering Terra. Do not be fooled, this is exactly what all Chaos Marines want...and they will have it.

Arguably, he could've meant that other vengeful scions will take care of the Imperium, not him or his warband.

And if someone's bringing down the IoM its the Nids or the Necrons.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Arguably, he could've meant that other vengeful scions will take care of the Imperium, not him or his warband.

And if someone's bringing down the IoM its the Nids or the Necrons.

No offense, but are you joking me? Why would he bother saying that if he himself has no intention of being a part of the scheme? Thats like saying I wanna be a rockstar yet Im sitting around hoping someone else does it for me. I do agree with you about the Nidz, they could be the death of everything. Necrons definitely could be the destruction of the Imperium but they are more likely to turn their weapons on Chaos first and then destroy the Imperium.

Play Space Marine where one SM is able to stop an Ork Waaagh and a demonic incursion single handed. That doesn't exist in the books. That doesn't exist on the table. Other games/books are more balanced and fair but again, it can vary.

The CSM in that game fought like armed vegetables and certain scenes (Like when he wrecked half a dozen of them alone easily) were just plain illogical. But to be fair the majority of that game was actually plausible. Titus rarely fought more than half a dozen foes at once and when he did it was almost always Orks.

 Inkubas wrote:

And yes, they need to make the CSM seem more dangeous, and an actual threat to mankind. That'd be epic.

Wow, after reading some of these posts, it appears like chaos is not bad enough. Chaos is a MAJOR threat. It's not THE threat. I believe that spot is for the Tyranids but it's a plague that is crippling the imperium of man. The strength and skill of SM and CSM is based on the author and how much they want to empower or enfeeble. Don't believe me? Play Space Marine where one SM is able to stop an Ork Waaagh and a demonic incursion single handed. That doesn't exist in the books. That doesn't exist on the table. Other games/books are more balanced and fair but again, it can vary.

Let's just run a hypothetical situation space marine chapter comes across a chaos war band. The results will vary. It's not like the Space marines are going to be the clear winners every time, nor does it mean that the chaos warband will be able to destroy and crush the space marines. If the Space wolves meet Iron warriors the result would be different than if Dark Angels meet Death Guard. Does it mean that if DA lose they suck? Or does it mean that Iron warriors aren't as strong as SW? It can go either way. This is compounded by the fact that all the information we have is based on fluff that can/will change depending on author.

There is no ONE team (CSM/SM) that is stronger or better.

I'd put this on par with a discussion on who would win in a fight Jesus or Superman.

To be fair, Spacemarine was just a video game, your suppose to feel like an overpowering bad***. Just look at Master Chief in Halo, throughout the course of the series hes killed lord knows how many Covenant troops.

The CSM in Space Marine were worfed.

The rest of the game was good.