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Zond wrote:
I found all my old Fanatic issues whilst unpacking today. Made me realise how much I miss the GW setting, especially BFG. No other fleet game has had the same weight except the also mourned for Babylon 5.

Have you had a look at Firestorm Armada 2? You can get a serious amount of ships on the field although you don't have the variation of ship armaments, you also don't have ALL the variation of ship armament.

 MarcoSkoll wrote:
Well, Necromunda of course started as 2nd edition.

2nd rules, sure, but I don't see what difference it makes. Necromunda is made not by the rules but by the background and the gangs. Simply swapping them for small-scale 40K armies would make the game not Necromunda.

I played Epic, Gorkamorka, and my favorite, Necromunda. I never got into Mordheim or BFG, but I wish I had.

I tried to get back into 40k via Kill Team a few months ago hoping it could work as an alternative to Necromunda, but I just couldn't stay excited about it. Necromunda was and is still the best game GW ever made, IMO. I got my gaming friends to give it another go a few years ago and we had a pretty good run, but interest died off eventually. I'd still like to start up a campaign again at some point.

I just hope that the Mordheim video game is both good and successful, so that we might get Necromunda game at some point. As far as existing GW games, I have little interest in where they are taking 40k. Bigger is not always better. That and the spirit of the games from the 90's is long dead, and that's what made them special IMO.

Ah well, things move on. Doesn't mean the games aren't still worth playing. I would encourage everyone to give Necromunda a try if you never have. It is a blast when played with a good group of friends.

Going to raise a glass in honor of Necro tonight.

I'll miss Mordheim, well I won't because I have the PDF stashed away, but you know what I mean!

On a recent thread in News and Rumors about the Mordheim video game, somebody was saying that Mordheim became muddled as it didn't have an errata/rules updates etc etc

Out of all the GW games I've played, I never had a problem with the Mordheim rules. Here's hoping the video game will capture some of the game's flavour.


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 Flashman wrote:
I have all the specialist games stuff downloaded onto a laptop.

For free.

Do you hear that GW? For free! Mmmwahahahaha!!!

Ahem. On topic - played Gorkamorka back in the day and still play Mordheim, mainly because the minis are so readily available via the Fantasy range.

Slightly OT, but I've noticed that warhammer visions is sleeveless these days. Given your penchant for magazine 'browsing,' that's more free stuff for you.

But, then again, visions is that bad, probably not worth the bother.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


On a recent thread in News and Rumors about the Mordheim video game, somebody was saying that Mordheim became muddled as it didn't have an errata/rules updates etc etc

Out of all the GW games I've played, I never had a problem with the Mordheim rules. Here's hoping the video game will capture some of the game's flavour.

I know there are substantial community revisions for both Mordheim and Necromunda. There is Coreheim and Necromunda Community edition that can be found with a quick google search. I can't speak to the Coreheim rules, other than reading they are regarded as very good, but Necromunda CE is very good. It fixes a lot of the issues with gang balance and more importantly fixes the mess that was Necromunda: Underhive, which is so typo ridden and flat out missing rules descriptions referenced elsewhere in the book, that if you were unfamiliar with the original rules, you could argue makes aspects of the game unplayable due to lack of content.

That said, the original rules are good enough to stand on their own. The revisions done by the community are basically updates on things that didn't work as well as they could have. I don't know where the idea comes from that these rules are a mess, unless it is from those gamers who are always looking for ambiguity in the writing to exploit. Then again, we often went with "what makes sense" when we got in a rules question with Necro, but that's the advantage of playing with like minded friends. Perhaps if you were trying to play it somewhat competitively you could find more ways to break or exploit the rules. That is very much not the point of Necromunda though.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Necromunda is made not by the rules but by the background and the gangs. Simply swapping them for small-scale 40K armies would make the game not Necromunda.

Which more or less comes across to me as reading too literally and responding to "Hey, you could use the Necromunda rules for skirmish 40k" with "NO! NO YOU CAN'T! THAT'S AN AWFUL IDEA! BY DEFINITION, YOU CAN'T USE THE NECROMUNDA RULES FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN PLAYING AS GANGS ON NECROMUNDA!". Probably using a frying pan to punctuate the sentence, but maybe I'm just violent.

The most sensible future for Necromunda probably would be as one of a possible range of settings for a general WH40K skirmish ruleset - you'd want to run any non-core game development pretty lean, so as to maximise the rate of return.

I think that, as a whole, Blood Bowl has done the best, post-GW, of any of the Specialist games.

Lots of teams, lots of miniatures, 3rd party dice and even custom pitches.

I wish that I liked the game better - but it sure as heck is still getting a lot of love.

The Auld Grump


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 MarcoSkoll wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Necromunda is made not by the rules but by the background and the gangs. Simply swapping them for small-scale 40K armies would make the game not Necromunda.

Which more or less comes across to me as reading too literally and responding to "Hey, you could use the Necromunda rules for skirmish 40k" with "NO! NO YOU CAN'T! THAT'S AN AWFUL IDEA! BY DEFINITION, YOU CAN'T USE THE NECROMUNDA RULES FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN PLAYING AS GANGS ON NECROMUNDA!". Probably using a frying pan to punctuate the sentence, but maybe I'm just violent.

The most sensible future for Necromunda probably would be as one of a possible range of settings for a general WH40K skirmish ruleset - you'd want to run any non-core game development pretty lean, so as to maximise the rate of return.

I think that you two are having separate arguments - that there is a failure to communicate rather than an actual disagreement.

What I think that you want is a general 'WH40K Skirmish' rule set, with modules that define that game as, say, Necromunda or Gorka Morka. With the possibility of further modules defining other settings.

What I think H.M.B.C. thinks you are saying is that you want full scale WH40K, but with rules for skirmishes - which really isn't the same thing. (Whether or not you like the rules post 3e... they really are not as flexible as the old, kludgier, but well loved 2nd ed rules sets.)

Me... I would not argue against Mad Max style vehicular madness on the Ash Wastes outside of the Spire, with or without Orks. (YakTribe has some expansions upon that theme. )

The Auld Grump

I never played any of these games, but I miss the Necromunda minis, and regret not getting into Mordheim when I had the chance.
GorkaMorka was great for the converting and scratch-building potential, as well.

TheAuldGrump wrote:I think that, as a whole, Blood Bowl has done the best, post-GW, of any of the Specialist games.

Lots of teams, lots of miniatures, 3rd party dice and even custom pitches.

I wish that I liked the game better

I'm getting through the better part of a season after a hiatus for a few years and I'm having trouble liking it again. Everything is so badly cobbled together and bolted on. It's starting to remind me of a bad late 80s RPG that people think is good because the happened to enjoy the GM who ran the game and falsely attribute it to the rules. I have three painted teams that mostly live in my display cabinet which I keep because I tell myself I'll play again because Bloodbowl is so awesome, but after taking a couple years off from it and returning to it, I can see I had a major case of rose tinted glasses. I think I'm just going to give my teams to a friend and call it quits as it might actually be a bad game. I just kept telling myself was good because of the half of the time I found the actual play tolerable, the people I was playing with were the real cause of the fun.

 Starfarer wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


On a recent thread in News and Rumors about the Mordheim video game, somebody was saying that Mordheim became muddled as it didn't have an errata/rules updates etc etc

Out of all the GW games I've played, I never had a problem with the Mordheim rules. Here's hoping the video game will capture some of the game's flavour.

I know there are substantial community revisions for both Mordheim and Necromunda. There is Coreheim and Necromunda Community edition that can be found with a quick google search. I can't speak to the Coreheim rules, other than reading they are regarded as very good, but Necromunda CE is very good. It fixes a lot of the issues with gang balance and more importantly fixes the mess that was Necromunda: Underhive, which is so typo ridden and flat out missing rules descriptions referenced elsewhere in the book, that if you were unfamiliar with the original rules, you could argue makes aspects of the game unplayable due to lack of content.

That said, the original rules are good enough to stand on their own. The revisions done by the community are basically updates on things that didn't work as well as they could have. I don't know where the idea comes from that these rules are a mess, unless it is from those gamers who are always looking for ambiguity in the writing to exploit. Then again, we often went with "what makes sense" when we got in a rules question with Necro, but that's the advantage of playing with like minded friends. Perhaps if you were trying to play it somewhat competitively you could find more ways to break or exploit the rules. That is very much not the point of Necromunda though.

Thanks for that info about community revisions - I'll look into it.

On a separate note, does Dreadfleet count as a specialist game? It got a lot of stick on this site, but I enjoyed painting the ships and thought it was a half decent game.

The fact that I bought 10 boxes of Dreadfleet and doubled my money a few months later is entirely unrelated to my love of Dreadfleet

Still, does it qualify as a specialist game or does Man O' war get the accolade?

No. Dreadfleet does not count.

Now watch your mouth out and say ten Hail Kirby's as penance for even suggesting such a thing.

I started going to a new gaming club a few weeks ago and they actually seem to thoroughly enjoy Dreadfleet as a team game.

Not having played it, but seen multiple reviews... I was thoroughly confused, especially when they compared it to Battlefleet Gothic.

boomaster wrote:

Zond wrote:
I found all my old Fanatic issues whilst unpacking today. Made me realise how much I miss the GW setting, especially BFG. No other fleet game has had the same weight except the also mourned for Babylon 5.

Have you had a look at Firestorm Armada 2? You can get a serious amount of ships on the field although you don't have the variation of ship armaments, you also don't have ALL the variation of ship armament.

I have models for it. It lacks a fleshed out setting which I enjoy however. The manuals from Salute look fairly meaty however.

Hawk Wargames / Dropzone Commander announced that they're doing a Spaceship game now... With a little help from Andy Chambers.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
No. Dreadfleet does not count.

Now watch your mouth out and say ten Hail Kirby's as penance for even suggesting such a thing.

Never! Give me dreadfleet or give me death!


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 Compel wrote:
I started going to a new gaming club a few weeks ago and they actually seem to thoroughly enjoy Dreadfleet as a team game.

Not having played it, but seen multiple reviews... I was thoroughly confused, especially when they compared it to Battlefleet Gothic.

I think the Dreadfleet backlash was for a few reasons:

1) The price, which was a fair criticism, especially when people like me were sucking up multiple copies and doubling my profits a few months done the line. That was good business acumen!

2) The fact that people knew that it would be here today, gone tomorrow, so why should I invest money in a game that won't receive future support? Again, this is something I sympathise with, as after you've done the main campaign, there is nothing left, and no chance of any new ships/scenarios in the future.

3) It wasn't Battlefleet gothic. Out of all the criticisms, this was probably the most petty in my view, like blaming oranges for not being apples.

I think he was just comparing the rule mechanics/structure between Dreadfleet & BFG. That's a fair comparison to make, you quite often have a lot of cross-over between space/sea battle games in terms of how mechanics function.

I actually thought Dreadfleet was fun, in a 'play it a few times' kind of way. Way too random and nothing like enough depth (ho ho!) for it to be mentioned in the same breath as some of the 'Specialist' games, but it was an extremely rare foray by the modern-age, publically owned GW into a new game and as such I was glad that they tried such a thing. The feint echo of ages past and all that..

Sadly, it sounds like it didn't sell enough to make the venture likely to be repeated. So it's going to be 40k or the highway if you are a GW fan from here on in, especially if those rumours that WFB is going to be turned into a bastardised version of the same game turn out to be true.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
No. Dreadfleet does not count.

Now watch your mouth out and say ten Hail Kirby's as penance for even suggesting such a thing.

Never! Give me dreadfleet or give me death!

*BLAM!*

[John Cleese]What a senseless waste of human life.[/John Cleese]

Sorry, it was just sitting there....

The Auld Grump

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


3) It wasn't Battlefleet gothic. Out of all the criticisms, this was probably the most petty in my view, like blaming oranges for not being apples.

I think the complaint was that it wasn't Man o' War.

It's a shame Dreadfleet didn't do great, because it was so refreshing that they produced something new which wasn't Space Marines. Sadly, one of the biggest criticisms the game faced was that "It's not Space Marines!"

It looked like well-produced game, and not even overly expensive when you consider the contents, however the visual aesthetic was just all over the place. All the ships were completely different visual style. This was a major bummer, since people who like naval games want to build FLEETS. Visual design just screamed "beer & pretzels & out of whack" which was a major turnoff for those who wanted a naval game, and it being a naval game was big turnoff for those who just wanted a beer & pretzels game.

What I miss about Specialist games.


hmm.....


On the whole, I miss the tone of the company more then any one rules set in particular. I miss the free wheeling, "Hey lets have some fun, this is how we can do it..." side play that the staffers from the WD, and company in house seemed to put off within the overall tone of the GW environment.

As they slowly crossed into mindless corporation drone status, we started loosing more and more of the guys that we evolved gaming with. I played a LOT of Necromunda, Gorkamorka, and Skirmish level 40K with some second edition use in there. I did not as much as I wanted to, play as much fantasy, based on the overall tone change from 3d edition to 4th, and I had a particularly favorable impression on the seasonal events, such as Lustria, Norsica, and the world wide campaigns systems. encouraged by the design team. We started slipping in our fun level partly because of the rules change from 2d to 3d edition, but on the whole, the books were written with a broad scope of open ended material that gives players plenty of opportunity to have fun and use their imagination, unlike today where everything is a compulsory this or standard issue that. The way in which fun was encouraged, and creative spins on the stuff that did not lock you down was probably the best thing that Specialist Games brought to the table, and one could easily push and want to push the material and use it in ways that were highly constructive, and downright fun.

Ork Bar brawl, Dark Eldar Pit fight, Lustria expansion, the Mordhiem added materials, the modeling corner, the HOW TO's that let you build stuff for use in the specialist games...., were but a few examples of how I remember how the Specialist games team pushed WD's envelope and made it a real fun magazine to read, and look forward to the added "Specialist games" material that came with it a real fun ride.

Try something like that now, and your more then likely going to get a C and D from G and W.

What happened to the rumoured inquisitor skirmish game? All fizzled to nothing, though fan made games exist. A shame because that really seemed to fire people's imaginations.

At salute I bought the Mordheim Possessed warband which I look forward to making up soon. My advice is to buy specialist games stuff when you see it, because it will get harder and harder to buy over time.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
What happened to the rumoured inquisitor skirmish game? All fizzled to nothing, though fan made games exist. A shame because that really seemed to fire people's imaginations.

It was likely rumour people mistaking Inquisition Codex for a stand-alone game.

And yes, it's a shame since it's a kind of game GW would really need these days to freshen up their limited & increasingly stale selection. Well, they're likely done with LOTR license at this point, so lets hope it frees sculpting and design resources to other than more 40k.

Rumours like that are just wishlisting out of the context of GW's financial plateuing and retraction of sales.

GW has doubled down on their "main games" approach at every opportunity. They're simply not going to change their plan unless forced to. And when each financial report comes out where GW's revenue is flat and unit sales are down, big changes become more believable.

Surely, at some point, they must do something. And then when they do, we tend to think that catering to our specific preferences will be what happens.

That's all that rumour was.

When I really think about it, "Specialist Games" is really the problem and not a point of nostalgia. "Specialist Games" is a label that GW slapped on a bunch of games that they decided to give to a couple of staff and supply only minimal support and finances too. Not to say that some of the SG team didn't try hard to do well and get some new minis and material out, but from the moment that the label was applied it was a slow turning off of the tap for resources and support.

Nearly all the games that we refer to as "Specialist games" had their heyday and time of biggest success and support before they were sent to the SG room. Before SG, they were full members of the GW family of games with prominent space on store shelves, features in WD, and active support. After SG they were the stepchildren in the basement.

Put another way it's not Specialist Games that I miss. I miss the Games Workshop that used to support a wider range of games.

 Eilif wrote:
Put another way it's not Specialist Games that I miss. I miss the Games Workshop that used to support a wider range of games.

This.

Fanatic or Specialist Games was part of the process of shelving these games and doubling down on the "main games only" approach GW has been on for over a decade.

I did get my hands on a complete BFG start box last year. It eaven had extra ships added to the chaos fleet. I was in the mood to start an Mechanicus collection... but...

I'll just raise my glass in respect of theese great games. Me and my friends will still enyoy them.

I miss Gorkamorka the most, not really for the ruleset or anything, but for the glimpse into the lives of Orks.

I got started in this hobby with Necromunda and I'm very regretful that they killed it off. Then we got into Mordheim ("No way I'm painting up a fantasy army, but 12 guys...?"), and then into the hobby as a whole.

I've got Bommas over the Sulphur River, Space Hulk, Blood Bowl, and Dread Fleet. I regret not getting the ork ships for BFG, but I know no one who plays it at all.

Given the age of Kickstarters and the like, I don't see how GW can't make money on these. Put out something as an option, and if enough people commit to it, then print it! It seems like no risk! I also think that they are missing the opportunity to GET people into the hobby, and KEEP people in the hobby. Small scale games like Necromunda allow someone to 'try out' the game, without ever thinking about buying dozens, or hundreds of models. For the person who already has every model ever made for your army, Epic/BFG/etc. allows you to collect more of your favorite army.

With electronic editions and easy print-on-demand, I can't see why any of the books were ever pulled (don't get me started on Warhammer Historicals) and I don't see why they can't find a way to manage profitable limited production runs of models.

Sigh.

 Eilif wrote:
When I really think about it, "Specialist Games" is really the problem and not a point of nostalgia. "Specialist Games" is a label that GW slapped on a bunch of games that they decided to give to a couple of staff and supply only minimal support and finances too. Not to say that some of the SG team didn't try hard to do well and get some new minis and material out, but from the moment that the label was applied it was a slow turning off of the tap for resources and support.

Nearly all the games that we refer to as "Specialist games" had their heyday and time of biggest success and support before they were sent to the SG room. Before SG, they were full members of the GW family of games with prominent space on store shelves, features in WD, and active support. After SG they were the stepchildren in the basement.

Put another way it's not Specialist Games that I miss. I miss the Games Workshop that used to support a wider range of games.

Yeah. It was obvious that 'Specialist Games' were simply a wastebasket label for obsolete games. When were the last miniatures for them released anyway? Some new BFG ships came out in 2007 IIRC, and Aeronautica Imperialis was released that year. When did the last Blood Bowl minis come out?

As pointed out in ICv2 thread, it's the lack of diversification which is really hurting GW. LOTR license has become a proverbial millstone tied to GW's neck at this point. Well, maybe with Battle of Five Armies it'll pick up speed again...right??

 Pacific wrote:
I think he was just comparing the rule mechanics/structure between Dreadfleet & BFG. That's a fair comparison to make, you quite often have a lot of cross-over between space/sea battle games in terms of how mechanics function.

I actually thought Dreadfleet was fun, in a 'play it a few times' kind of way. Way too random and nothing like enough depth (ho ho!) for it to be mentioned in the same breath as some of the 'Specialist' games, but it was an extremely rare foray by the modern-age, publically owned GW into a new game and as such I was glad that they tried such a thing. The feint echo of ages past and all that..

Sadly, it sounds like it didn't sell enough to make the venture likely to be repeated. So it's going to be 40k or the highway if you are a GW fan from here on in, especially if those rumours that WFB is going to be turned into a bastardised version of the same game turn out to be true.

Good point. I honestly think that if the reception for Dreadfleet had been better, then maybe different games would have been a more regular feature. Space Hulk flew off the shelves, and GW probably thought they were on a roll. Dreadfleet's poor reception probably forced them to reel that thinking back in. But I did my bit to boost sales. I bought 10 boxes, god damn it! Well, that's what my heart says. Head says that dakka's negativity probably scared them off!


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 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


3) It wasn't Battlefleet gothic. Out of all the criticisms, this was probably the most petty in my view, like blaming oranges for not being apples.

I think the complaint was that it wasn't Man o' War.

I'm old enough to remember Man O' War, and it's probably heresy on this site to say this, but I didn't think it was up to much. Battlefleet, yeah, Man O'War, no.


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Backfire wrote:
It's a shame Dreadfleet didn't do great, because it was so refreshing that they produced something new which wasn't Space Marines. Sadly, one of the biggest criticisms the game faced was that "It's not Space Marines!"

It looked like well-produced game, and not even overly expensive when you consider the contents, however the visual aesthetic was just all over the place. All the ships were completely different visual style. This was a major bummer, since people who like naval games want to build FLEETS. Visual design just screamed "beer & pretzels & out of whack" which was a major turnoff for those who wanted a naval game, and it being a naval game was big turnoff for those who just wanted a beer & pretzels game.

Good post. It was a joy to paint those ships. One of the few times that GW had the sense to provide a complete painting guide. Ok, you had to buy WD, but it did allow me to achieve a pretty good paint scheme that boosted my profits, so thank you GW

?????????????? Why is Specialist Games Dead ???????????????????

It's only dead when people stop playing them. This year at my Games Club We've started a Necromunda Campaign. We have 7 active Gangs with 3 more on the way. All the Terrain came from Spartan Games: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/572986.page Members have bought Gangs off Ebay, some have used other ranges like Infinity, someone else has done a Goliath Gang with Catachans. People are loving it. Necromunda was one of the better rulesets from GW.

We've even poached a member from a different Games Club due to the interest in Necromunda.

Battlefleet Gothic I admit, has been replaced with Firestorm Armada. Space Hulk is still played at our club. Epic was replaced with DZC. Point is, a Game is only dead when People stop playing it.