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Zengu wrote:
Has anyone used the Wyvern yet? Is it any good or worth taking? I've done a few test rolls and I cant seem to wound anything with it. Am I right in thinking that Eradicator or even another artillery would do its job better?

Saw a battery of x3 decimate a Tau Gunline army, these things seem tailor made to take in squadrons and to be used to deal with Xenos armies. Against MEQ's the sheer volume of hits you should be able to inflict with them should makeup for their low S and high AP.

 gmaleron wrote:

Zengu wrote:
Has anyone used the Wyvern yet? Is it any good or worth taking? I've done a few test rolls and I cant seem to wound anything with it. Am I right in thinking that Eradicator or even another artillery would do its job better?

Saw a battery of x3 decimate a Tau Gunline army, these things seem tailor made to take in squadrons and to be used to deal with Xenos armies. Against MEQ's the sheer volume of hits you should be able to inflict with them should makeup for their low S and high AP.

I wouldn't call S4 shred low strength.

S4 shred is better than S5

Wyverns hit T4 targets with a 4+ armor save harder than forge world thudd guns and don't require a prescience.

Anyone claiming wyverns aren't good will be crying about them and calling them the new cheese in a couple weeks times.

Well for their price they do more than you pay them for. But compared to the old guns, they seem disappointing. But their spamability kinda makes up for it. I too see it becoming a popular model.

So do the Tauox have the same footprint as the Chimeria or is it closer to a Rhino or Land Raider?

Its smaller than a chimera, not much smaller. Its taller though.

Not as wide from memory.

What about the MoO's? Are they worthwhile for 20pts? Are they worth twin-linking?

What about Astropaths? I feel, after having much face time with Belakor, telepathy includes some powerful debuffs.

Thoughts?

Razerous wrote:
What about the MoO's? Are they worthwhile for 20pts? Are they worth twin-linking?

What about Astropaths? I feel, after having much face time with Belakor, telepathy includes some powerful debuffs.

Thoughts?

Moo's are pretty much the same as before. the only difference being you can possibly get relentless.
Astropaths i think will be a relatively awesome add on. little bit of psychic defense and the potential to get some fum powers.

I think we will see more Master of the Fleet to screw people over more than we will see astropaths

Rob451 wrote:As a counterpoint to my own Chimera Spam List: Taurox Spam

Yeah, I don't know how much I like tauroxes, and foot guard definitely did get more love than mech guard this codex, but it seems to me that mech guard is still the stronger way of running guard at the moment.

kir44n wrote:With the decrease in cost to Vanquishers, I find it difficult to justify not taking a double vanquisher squadron, each with a lascannon.

With the points cost reduction in multimeltas, it's hard to make an argument against adding them as well.

I mean, for the price of two meltas, you get two multimeltas, and on AV14 to boot.

It's one of those things that I feel like they may have made too cheap about russes.

Red Corsair wrote:Yea, a hellhound with an auger array and a platoon with 10 specials precision DS'ing can be VERY effective.

I'm a little wary of the auger arrays. They'd sort of HAVE to be on fast units like hellhounds in order to get used, but a hellhound blasting forward isn't THAT durable. Which means you'd have to have multiple auger arrays, and those suckers ain't free. Plus, whoever had one would have the biggest possible target drawn on them...

Biophysical wrote:I really like Sentinels, and the decreased cost of armored sentinels suddenly makes them pretty interesting. There's a catch, though. Leman Russ tanks also went down in price, and they have a gun for everything.

So, I don't like armored sentinels (or vendettas in this case), on this very principle. Things in the FA slot should behave like FA choices. They shouldn't behave like heavy support options in the wrong FOC slot.

In practice, yeah, armored sentinels have basically the same killing power. The real distinction is if you want 6HP of AV12 or 3HP of AV14. In this case, I think I'd still take the russ. Yeah, there's the chance that a single vehicle destroyed result will poach the whole deal, but on the other hand, losing 2 HP of AV12 means that now you're down a gun, while the russ always fires at full strength until it's destroyed.

But I can see uses for the armored sentinels as well, I suppose.

felixcat wrote:astropaths

I think I finally figured them out. Astropaths are really just a way to include a cheap psychic shriek into the squad. Think of it as being like adding a plasma gunner, sort of.

Also, astropaths cheaply give CCSs a 5+ deny the witch.

schadenfreude wrote:S4 shred is better than S5

Sure, but it's not real S5, which means it doesn't hurt vehicles.

And even then, it's still Ap6, so even if the hits to wounds ratio is good, the wounds to kills ratio is crappy. And it's still stuck with a small blast template, so it still doesn't work on displaced troops, and it's still barrage, so it still doesn't work against units in ruins, and no matter how squishy infantry the infantry are, it never works against units embarked in a transport. Given that it's also not doing much to monstrous creatures or vehicles, and can't even target fliers, the role of a wyvern is extremely narrow.

... and it still competes with other infantry killers, and it still takes up a valuable HS slot, and it still does what all the anti-infantry weapons you were already bringing does, and it's still stuck on an open-topped AV12/10 chassis.

I imagine that we'll see some players give it a try and then realise how crappy its damage is and quit. Especially when you consider its damage output for how dang long it takes to resolve all the dice rolling every time it fires.

Except for a few hard-core hold-outs. Some people liked the griffon after all, and that at least was S6 Ap4 ordnance, which was a lot better.

I love the telepath. Their primar power is good against elite models where winning by 3 or 4 will be devastating. Against horde like armies, its not really great, but I want to try it against terminators or something.

I also like the master of fleet now, a bit unreliable maybe but at least he can pick and choose, plus combine effects if need be.

Here is one way to think about it.

You take 3 Level-2 Psykers.
#1 Rolls a 1 Getting: Foreboding. Happy with that you move on trying to get Precognition, but rolls a 6 giving you Scryer’s Gaze so you take Presence.
#2 Rolls a 2 Giving you Forewarning. Then you make your second roll and gets 5 giving you Precognition.
#3 Roll a 4 giving you Perfect Timing and then rolls a 6 giving you Scryer’s Gaze so you take Presence.

You now have the following
#1: Full Ballistic Skill on Overwatch and Re-Rolls to hit, so you attach him to one of your Veteran Squads.
#2: 4++ Save and Re-Rolls on To Hit and Damage along with saves, so you attack him to your Punisher Russ Squadron.
#3: Ignore Cover and To-Hit Rolls, so you attack him to your Vanquisher/Exterminator Squadron or your Heavy Weapons Teams.

Edit: Well I posted here by mistake, but it is not out of place here.

Swastakowey wrote: Against horde like armies, its not really great,

But it is a lot funnier. Conscripts have Ld5, which means sometimes the astropath leers angrily and points his finger at them and then 13 of them suddenly explode like a gory version of popcorn.

 Ailaros wrote:

Swastakowey wrote: Against horde like armies, its not really great,

But it is a lot funnier. Conscripts have Ld5, which means sometimes the astropath leers angrily and points his finger at them and then 13 of them suddenly explode like a gory version of popcorn.

Very true, but thats like super horde haha.

Either way, at his price he doesnt have to kill many models to make his money back.

Its also awesome because he is blind. In my opinion a blind old man walking the fields of death blasting away enemies is impressive.

What do people think about Straken's 360 No-scopers? I don't have the book in front of me, but doesn't Straken give his unit Relentless, and 3 BS4 Sniper Rifles that can move and shoot like Ratlings could be amusing.

Yes from his warlord trait, though I was thinking Plasma Guns and Nork along with a Priest out of a Valk

 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes from his warlord trait, though I was thinking Plasma Guns and Nork along with a Priest out of a Valk

Thats pretty expensive. I have found Imperial Guard to always be about the amount of models you put down. Expensive things like this (only 7 models) will let you down most of the time.

In my opinion, id be more than happy to see a unit like that coming towards me.

So I just had a thought. With 3 ML2 psykers, you can really go fishing for any power you want out of those 4 trees and still take an inquisitor or two to have divination covered.

Augur Array + Gate of Infinity = precision deep strike by the blob. I'm not sure this is the most effective tactic, but you could put the array on a valk or vendetta. Zoom it into position during the move phase of turn 3, reposition your blob anywhere that has room for it. Downside is, you're super clumped up at that point (and I don't think Forwards for the Emperor bypasses the Deep Strike prohibition on moving further that phase?). Upside is FRF in double tap range, with a large group of models and if the enemy was coming towards you and left gaps in his back field... (your list could also have some scions ready to reinforce this new front).

Of course, Telekinesis has some other less useful powers that you might get stuck with trying to get this one. The 24" Haywire hit one isn't bad either though it's not like you were hurting for vehicle killing power, but the reroll 6s would shut down people snap firing at your fliers or making overwatch shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, looking at Pyromancy: Fire shield + Cypher = 2+ cover save in the open. (Are there cheaper ICs with Shrouded?)

Or 3+ cover saves in the open for vehicles with camo netting.

Sadly, again pyromancy has a lot of other powers that are just meh. (Though fiery form + force axe on the psyker gets you S6 AP2, instant death attacks, that could get you somewhere.)

Since Scions are a "platoon", does that mean that a single succesful reserve roll would allow the entire platoon of 3 squads to deep-strike in the same turn?

I think biomancy wins at being the best non-divination set of powers. The primaris is potentially useful though somewhat short range. I could see builds that go for 12 AP2 attacks.

I could also see div and biomancy mixed for maximum effect. You know how your blob is still somewhat squishy with 4++? What if it also had FNP? (Also Relentless and IWND; so there's more than one way to give a squad Relentless.)

I can also see Enfeeble + Rad Grenades being a thing. Throw in Hammer Hand, and suddenly your conscript's attacks cause instant death for MEQ.(Probably not worth the points tactically, but the hilarity...)

Curve ball tactic that would only work against casual lists but may be fun, 3 primaris psykers, allied in inquisitor psykers, allied in greay knights inquisitor and maybe a bare bones strike squad. Add a culexus assasin and get them up the field, yeah it's only 12" range but that could potentially be 9(off the top of my head?) S5 AP1 shots from BS10.

Again, not really competitive but it could be funny, providing you can keep everything that is buffing him alive, and him for that matter.

Mavnas wrote:
So I just had a thought. With 3 ML2 psykers, you can really go fishing for any power you want out of those 4 trees and still take an inquisitor or two to have divination covered.

Augur Array + Gate of Infinity = precision deep strike by the blob. I'm not sure this is the most effective tactic, but you could put the array on a valk or vendetta. Zoom it into position during the move phase of turn 3, reposition your blob anywhere that has room for it. Downside is, you're super clumped up at that point (and I don't think Forwards for the Emperor bypasses the Deep Strike prohibition on moving further that phase?). Upside is FRF in double tap range, with a large group of models and if the enemy was coming towards you and left gaps in his back field... (your list could also have some scions ready to reinforce this new front).

Of course, Telekinesis has some other less useful powers that you might get stuck with trying to get this one. The 24" Haywire hit one isn't bad either though it's not like you were hurting for vehicle killing power, but the reroll 6s would shut down people snap firing at your fliers or making overwatch shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deepstriking does not prevent you from running in the shooting phase. Just stops you from further movement in the movement phase.

Then forward for the emperor is the way to unbunch slightly while still shooting.

 Crablezworth wrote:
Anyone claiming wyverns aren't good will be crying about them and calling them the new cheese in a couple weeks times.

I think this is probably going to be the case. 4 shots per 65 point tank is a lot of firepower, even at S4. There's so many twin-linked shots, with shred, that even sub-optimal targets take a lot of damage. I don't think it has to be slow either. Say you've got a whole squadron. You make the first ranging shot, then just roll a D6 for each of the remaining shots all together. Any 5's or 6's are hits, and you set them aside, re-rolling the rest. Any more 5's or 6's go into the first pile. Find the optimal place to put the template and multiply your hits by the number of dice in the hit pile. Everything else you'll have to scatter, but that shouldn't be that many scatters, and it shouldn't take that long to resolve each one. Then you roll your wounds like anything else. It won't be a short shooting phase, but it's not going to be way longer than, say, a big blob with mixed weapons and Divination.

The common argument is IG don't need a lot of help killing infantry. I look at it this way. They're not that great at killing infantry dug in way in the back of a deployment zone, but the Wyvern does this pretty well. They also have plenty of killing power against tanks, and don't necessarily need help in that department.

Biophysical wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
Anyone claiming wyverns aren't good will be crying about them and calling them the new cheese in a couple weeks times.

I think this is probably going to be the case. 4 shots per 65 point tank is a lot of firepower, even at S4. There's so many twin-linked shots, with shred, that even sub-optimal targets take a lot of damage. I don't think it has to be slow either. Say you've got a whole squadron. You make the first ranging shot, then just roll a D6 for each of the remaining shots all together. Any 5's or 6's are hits, and you set them aside, re-rolling the rest. Any more 5's or 6's go into the first pile. Find the optimal place to put the template and multiply your hits by the number of dice in the hit pile. Everything else you'll have to scatter, but that shouldn't be that many scatters, and it shouldn't take that long to resolve each one. Then you roll your wounds like anything else. It won't be a short shooting phase, but it's not going to be way longer than, say, a big blob with mixed weapons and Divination.

The common argument is IG don't need a lot of help killing infantry. I look at it this way. They're not that great at killing infantry dug in way in the back of a deployment zone, but the Wyvern does this pretty well. They also have plenty of killing power against tanks, and don't necessarily need help in that department.

I think you have it for the most part. The Wyvern in my mind fills a very specific role for the IG, and that is to remove backfield objective holders in cover. A unit must maintain at least 1 model within 3" of the objective in order to hold it, so if the enemy displaces the maximum 2" from each model, he's going to limit how many models are actively holding the objective. Putting one model on top of the objective, you can then fit a maximum of 6 additional models maintaining 2" coherency within the 3" radius objective bubble. A full unit of Wyverns will be able to pound a unit off an objective over the course of a game, or draw fire from more expensive units if it is accomplishing its goal. Either way the IG player is benefiting.

I like some of what I am seeing in this thread but I have to say, I am seeing WAY too many points flushed into the pooper on power axes with some of these blobs.

A PW is 15pts! Some of these blobs I am seeing are 5 strong. Thats 75 points. You can get an Inquisitor with rad grenades and hammer hand for less then that. Do you really think the enemy is going to survive a 5 squad platoon swinging at s4 against -1t all prescience from a PP at initiative 3? If anything give the sarges melta bombs so wrath knights or iron clads can't tar pit that high cost blob as easily.

Heck I just noticed one blob had 5 guys with axes at 15ppm and no HW's. Buy 5 AC's and still save 25 points! A platoon HAS to have an AC or LC max. Other wise your wasting so much opportunity cost from orders.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Here is one way to think about it.

You take 3 Level-2 Psykers.
#1 Rolls a 1 Getting: Foreboding. Happy with that you move on trying to get Precognition, but rolls a 6 giving you Scryer’s Gaze so you take Presence.
#2 Rolls a 2 Giving you Forewarning. Then you make your second roll and gets 5 giving you Precognition.
#3 Roll a 4 giving you Perfect Timing and then rolls a 6 giving you Scryer’s Gaze so you take Presence.

Sadly Precog only works on the psyker, not even the unit he is in gets the buff.
Perfect timing is good but only works on the psyker and the unit he is in so no buffing tanks with it.

:p and Scryer's Gaze isn't so bad if you have reserves or outflanking units.

I'm not impressed with wyverns at all.
200 points for a squadron of three gets you 12 shots.

Assuming *every* shot doesn't scatter at all (and this isn't very likely, even with re-rolls), with a small blast you're only going to be hitting at *most* two models if your opponent does even a semi-decent job at spreading out his unit. So 12 shots, hitting two models each is 24 hits.

24 STR4 AP6 shots with re-rolls to wound does 6 wounds on average to MEQ, 11 to Firewarriors and 14 to GEQ.

But that's with optimal conditions, assuming there's *no* scatter for any of them, which is rather unlikely.

idk.

edit- Also, it'd be nice if someone answered my question. If scions are in a platoon, does that mean that a single successful reserve roll brings them all the squads in together?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
edit- Also, it'd be nice if someone answered my question. If scions are in a platoon, does that mean that a single successful reserve roll brings them all the squads in together?

Unless they specified anything for the Scions, platoons count as one unit for the purposes of reserves until they are deployed.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'm not impressed with wyverns at all.
200 points for a squadron of three gets you 12 shots.

Assuming *every* shot doesn't scatter at all (and this isn't very likely, even with re-rolls), with a small blast you're only going to be hitting at *most* two models if your opponent does even a semi-decent job at spreading out his unit. So 12 shots, hitting two models each is 24 hits.

24 STR4 AP6 shots with re-rolls to wound does 6 wounds on average to MEQ, 11 to Firewarriors and 14 to GEQ.

But that's with optimal conditions, assuming there's *no* scatter for any of them, which is rather unlikely.

idk.

How's that bad again? And even a bad turn of shooting, they'll likely get more no? How many lists can effortlessly contend with 3 of these bastards sitting at your board edge potentially behind los blocking terrain.