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Sweet as, i dont do mathhammer so dont quote me too hard on the odds

I killed an Eldar titan with a plasma pistol once.

I would not make the argument that plasma pistols are worth taking because of this happening.

 Ailaros wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:

Biophysical wrote:I was guessing bailed out of a vehicle or hiding behind cover.

Pretty much

But this is 6th ed where you get to emergency disembark. If he clustered his troops that much, then it was a choice. And if he had a 6+ FNP, that means you need to get either SEVEN OR EIGHT HITS per small blast template. What is even the maximum number that it's possible to hit with a blast template?

Either you got extremely lucky, or your opponent played in literally the stupidest possible way possible, and you merely got very lucky.

And those choices do often happen in games. You cannot ever maintain a perfect 2" between every model for the entire game unless you're not moving. These things are going to hit. They are going to cause wounds. And your opponent is going to fail saves. It's going to be a pain in his backside and effect everything he does (with boots on the ground) until he deals with it (almost more so than any other unit).

 daedalus wrote:
I killed an Eldar titan with a plasma pistol once.

I would not make the argument that plasma pistols are worth taking because of this happening.

He is not claiming that. It preformed well for him in one game and wants to take more to see how good they do. It's a very reasonable approach.

These weapons will do more than what mathhammer can realistically predict.

I am simply saying it did not do as horribly as people said it would. Not every player is always gonna be 2 apart. If they want make use of a barricade or cover because a bunch of melta guns landed nearby or or I just killed a vehicle, then in my opinion it can reasonably hurt a squad of marines with a wyvern.

I never said auto take, never said its amazing. Its just cheap and if you play your cards right it can come in handy.

Use sense when you read things

I recommend people try them in a range of games before they start screaming yay or nay too hard.

Actually, now I kind of want to try Pask in a Punisher with 3 squads of HB dominions for 2 turns of 56 rending S5 shots. If Pask's unit gets prescienced, that's 42 hits or 7 rending hits on average per turn. The downside is neither of those units can ignore cover. The upside is it would take 21 lascannon shots to put out that amount of AP2 wounds on a T8 model and they do a great job on horde killing as well.

People aren't realizing how accurate those wyverns are, even they scatter (1/3 chance) they have 11 more templates with 2/3 chance to aquire hits and walk the damn thing back. That weapon is basically a long range flamer PCS that is harder to kill and gets to fire from turn one and live after it delivers it's payload. Sure it only scores in big guns but who cares.

Lets not forget that it doesn't matter if it only kills a handful of models per volley, if it's sniping that lascanon and plasma gun from those 10 marines behind and aegis then it just took all their teeth away.

Blob players will regret knocking it, when those things put 5+ wounds a turn on that priest or primaris with forewarning, thats all it really need to do against hordes. Snipe.

You don't have to bow down to the great god of mathhammer and seek his comfort in these dark times. It's really basic. Watch:

4 hits that land as direct hits (let's give the wyvern the benefit of the doubt, even though the most likely result is only 2 of them achieving a direct hit, and only a roughly 1 in 2 chance that that first shot doesn't roll a scatter). Each hit lands 7 models (which only happens if they're ludicrously packed in there. Each hit lands .75 wounds (because that's the easy math), and 1 in 3 shots make it through armor (because they're Sv 3+).

4 x 7 = 28 hits. 28 x 3/4 is 21. 21 / 3 is 7.

So, even in this absolutely perfect situation, you still need to hit between 6 and 7 marines per small blast template to get that kind of damage.

Or, you were insanely lucky.

Tell us, should we all make decisions based on how lucky you were once, or should we all only take the wyvern if our opponents bunch up that much?

 Ailaros wrote:
You don't have to bow down to the great god of mathhammer and seek his comfort in these dark times. It's really basic. Watch:

4 hits that land as direct hits (let's give the wyvern the benefit of the doubt, even though the most likely result is only 2 of them achieving a direct hit, and only a roughly 1 in 2 chance that that first shot doesn't roll a scatter). Each hit lands 7 models (which only happens if they're ludicrously packed in there. Each hit lands .75 wounds (because that's the easy math), and 1 in 3 shots make it through armor (because they're Sv 3+).

4 x 7 = 28 hits. 28 x 3/4 is 21. 21 / 3 is 7.

So, even in this absolutely perfect situation, you still need to hit between 6 and 7 marines per small blast template to get that kind of damage.

Or, you were insanely lucky.

Tell us, should we all make decisions based on how lucky you were once, or should we all only take the wyvern if our opponents bunch up that much?

Yea sure why not. (I never said once that you all need to take it, nor did i say it was super amazing....) So i wont read that post as its probably just a waste of time.

They all got hits (one after a reroll) so i will give you that. But you cant really mathhammer hits and misses properly, thats called guessing.

So far from what I have seen in battle reports the wyvern has been pretty impressive. Going after people in cover, people hiding on objectives, things that emergency disembarked(which is gonna happen often with IG).

Thing is it only needs to stop one unit from getting an objective to have more than earned its points back. I think 4 small blasts re-rolling to wound and ignoring cover are good at clearing off objectives. I

 Ailaros wrote:
You don't have to bow down to the great god of mathhammer and seek his comfort in these dark times. It's really basic. Watch:

4 hits that land as direct hits (let's give the wyvern the benefit of the doubt, even though the most likely result is only 2 of them achieving a direct hit, and only a roughly 1 in 2 chance that that first shot doesn't roll a scatter). Each hit lands 7 models (which only happens if they're ludicrously packed in there. Each hit lands .75 wounds (because that's the easy math), and 1 in 3 shots make it through armor (because they're Sv 3+).

4 x 7 = 28 hits. 28 x 3/4 is 21. 21 / 3 is 7.

So, even in this absolutely perfect situation, you still need to hit between 6 and 7 marines per small blast template to get that kind of damage.

Or, you were insanely lucky.

Tell us, should we all make decisions based on how lucky you were once, or should we all only take the wyvern if our opponents bunch up that much?

It happened one time. He even said so. You'll find that I am a huge supporter of math hammer but this is something that can't be predicted that well as there are numerous other factors to take into account (noteably how the opponent reacts to it) with this unit.

I will agree that 4 per hit is probably high but not completely out of this world. You have lots of targets to choose from with 48" range. Pick the one that is most bunched up. Let's say on a good day you get 16 hits. They are then 12 wounds and then 4 dead after marine saves. Pretty decient. Even if you average 8 hits that is still 2 dead marines per turn at a 65 point invesentment.

The effect of causing the opponent to not bunch up is also hard to measure in value. But by all means ignore that.

Is it a good idea to buy 3 wyverns and put them in a squad? I know that that they work best in groups but if they got shot up wouldn't be a big lost but it would be a little dishearten.

NamelessBard wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
You don't have to bow down to the great god of mathhammer and seek his comfort in these dark times. It's really basic. Watch:

4 hits that land as direct hits (let's give the wyvern the benefit of the doubt, even though the most likely result is only 2 of them achieving a direct hit, and only a roughly 1 in 2 chance that that first shot doesn't roll a scatter). Each hit lands 7 models (which only happens if they're ludicrously packed in there. Each hit lands .75 wounds (because that's the easy math), and 1 in 3 shots make it through armor (because they're Sv 3+).

4 x 7 = 28 hits. 28 x 3/4 is 21. 21 / 3 is 7.

So, even in this absolutely perfect situation, you still need to hit between 6 and 7 marines per small blast template to get that kind of damage.

Or, you were insanely lucky.

Tell us, should we all make decisions based on how lucky you were once, or should we all only take the wyvern if our opponents bunch up that much?

It happened one time. He even said so. You'll find that I am a huge supporter of math hammer but this is something that can't be predicted that well as there are numerous other factors to take into account (noteably how the opponent reacts to it) with this unit.

I will agree that 4 per hit is probably high but not completely out of this world. You have lots of targets to choose from with 48" range. Pick the one that is most bunched up. Let's say on a good day you get 16 hits. They are then 12 wounds and then 4 dead after marine saves. Pretty decient. Even if you average 8 hits that is still 2 dead marines per turn at a 65 point invesentment.

The effect of causing the opponent to not bunch up is also hard to measure in value. But by all means ignore that.

Depending on how much terrain one plays with, forcing the opponent to choose between bunching up and not bunching up is important. Let us assume that you have a list with no barrage weapons, or deny cover blasts. This means your opponent can run bunched up, or can hide out of LoS bunched up to confer cover saves, or avoid being shot at completely. If you take a unit of 3 wyverns (or for arguments sake a manticore), then they will also have to weigh bunching up against denying LOS/Cover to other units.

In example. lets say I have a leman russ. Without being backed up by a barrage weapon, the enemy's sole concern depending on the fire lanes is to put any intervening terrain between himself and the Russ. Bunching up behind certain pieces of terrain can deny the russ the ability to shoot (thus 100% saves to the unit hiding). They could also bunch up behind an Aegis, then go to ground for a 2+ save that the russ cannot remove.

By having a barrage weapon you can force the enemy to displace, leaving less units out of LoS for the rest of your army, or denying the all important cover-saves they may gain (such as going to ground inside ruins).

I also believe that the argument "They compete for the all important Heavy Slot" is a non-issue. If someone is interested in completely filling their heavy slots with tanks, they will in fact run out of points before they run out of slots. Running an HQ squadron is between 300-550 points alone, let alone the cost of your tanks in the first two heavy slots. Then throw in mandatory Troops choices, and what you could conceivable use in that last Heavy slot becomes far more limited.

That said, I still feel the wyvern fills a very specific role, which is to dig light-medium infantry out of gone-to-ground, and force displacement. The Manticore in comparison can force displacement, force enemies into cover, threaten all vehicles, and be a general nuisance as well. It just can't deal with light-medium infantry that have dug themselves into a 2+ cover-save.

If i were to use a Wyvern, it would be when my list had 65-130 points I had not yet allocated, and needed something to force my enemy to displace even when out of LoS. I have seen games lost by one player completely hiding out of LoS, bunched up like mad, becuase the opposing player had nothing mobile enough to threaten the unit on the rear objective. And since the wyvern can do it on the cheap, I would consider it to be not such a garbage purchase. And thats ignoring its S4 Ap6 statline. Killing power is not the end-all-be-all when you can play psychological warfare and get your opponent to play the way you want them to play.

Actually, though I doubted it initially, I can definitely see the wyvern murdering guys post-Deep Strike if they choose to not run. I can also understand that clearing an objective may be worth it even if the squad of three don't strictly make back their points, particularly in a game where the enemy has some LoW or *star and very few actual scoring units that are hard to get to because of his big bad thing in the middle of the table.

Think the Wyvern has its uses, especially against xenos factions. Even then put enough hits and wounds on a MEQ squad they are bound to fail some saves. Sorry this game is random enough that I don't completely by into or listen to mathhammer, its something to keep in mind but not bank on.

Mathhammer means a lot more when you have lots of shots.

When you have a single shot that has a 20% chance to murder something, you either murder it or you don't. When you have a blob firing 100 shots that you expect to kill 20% of an enemy unit, chances are good you're murdering 15-25%.

The trouble is unless you use a calculator you're missing the variance in the probabilities, which is pretty important. I mean averages are nice and all, but it would be nicer to know exactly what the odds of doing X wounds more or less in a given situation. At some point I saw such a calculator, but I can't find it now :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'm convinced my seraphim are better at making rerollable 6++ saves than 3+. (I've had them shrug off the special weapons fired at them only to fall to the bolter fire from the rest of the unit, way too often.)

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:


>The year of our lord 2014
>Greentexting outside of 4chan

I have a hard time taking the Wyrven seriously when IG now has PLENTY of options for removing cover (including an order).

I cringe when people do this. I think I pulled a neck muscle.

I don't doubt the Wyvern isn't awful, but its using up precious heavy slots that can be filled with well-rounded units like Russes of most flavours and Manticores.

Don't forget the Manticore is still D3 large blast, netting you an average of 2 Large Blasts per turn, at S10 and AP4.

I don't think its a matter of the Wyvern being bad, but more of it being worth it in contention for proven, take all comer options that can handle everything thrown at them.

Indirectly insulting me and turning your nose up at me because of internet etiquette. I'd say I cringed, or more likely, laughed, but I didn't, mostly because in my experience the internet doesn't cause that sort of physical reaction.

Some people need to descend from their correctional high horses.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Russes can be taken as HQ choices, most often you'll be taking max 2 Manticores, and a single Manticore costs almost as much as 3 Wyverns, has a chance to flop and give you one pie plate, or miss the single ranging pie plate, and even with 2 S10 AP4 pie plates are you really getting better than 12 TL S4 Shred small blasts? I'd say almost certainly not.

Relax my friend, I was just having a but of fun. Not often do I get to make stupid comments (Intentionally you gits!), I was hoping the Costanza style intro would lead you on to the sarcasm.

The thing is that HQ russes SOUND good, but they have to be in a squadron and you will only ever be taking one of them as your other slot will be some order wielding character.

Manticores have the advantage, at least in my case, because I can tank hunt with them if I need to. Wyrvens can't.

Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if HQ Russes aren't a trap in an allied detatchment. With the forced squadron and a psyker to twin link them they easily get close 500 points, and a min size platoon and some sniper squads and suddenly my 1 HQ 1 Troop allied detachment is over half my 1500 point army.

No fun allowed here Happygrunt, plastic men that do the shootbangs across the table is serious business.

So we've seen the statistics on the wyvern, and we've also seen the luck that some folks have with them. Some folks will take three some will take none but I for one hold my judgement for after a few batreps have been churned out. I think atleast the wyvern might serve as a mini deathstrike and make opponents think twice about castling up. Me? I'm going to build mine, paint it and probably set it on a shelf until a fancy strikes me, I have a apoc game, or I move to a horde heavy meta.

Also I hope that it turns out that a scion platoons count as one unit for deep striking. For me that was part of the allure with the auger arrays, that ability to suddenly have 35 guy drop out of the sky and open up with plas, melta and shot hot las caused me to be all smiles when the idea hit me.

Wyvern math made easy, same works for a thudd with prescience.

Round the lead shot down to a single hit. Assume the opponent is spread out.

Follow up shots

A hit can flip in between 3 models so hit=3

A scatter=1 sometimes more sometimes less average it to 1.

Out of 9 follow up shots 5 hits=15 and 9 scatters=4 total is 19/9 or an average of 2.1111 hits per follow up shot.

12 shots=1 hit on lead and 23.2222 hits on follow up shots for a total of 24.222 round down to 24

Against T4 that's 16 wounds/dead orks or 5.3333 dead meq

Against T3 that's 21.3 dead gaunts, 10.6 dead fire warriors, or 14 dead GEQ


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*** Note I have played dozens of games with tl thudd guns any my subjective experience matches math hammer. About 75% of the time the lead shot is good and the average is about 24 hits for 12 blasts against a spread out opponent. Max 2" coherency means models form a triangle when they are not in a line and the center of the triangle can catch 3 models.***

On the Wyvern:

It's damage output may not be the best, and certainly doesn't compete with the likes of the Manticore or Leman Russ, but it doesn't really have to. It's only 60 points, making it the cheapest AV12 Chimera hull in the codex (handy for armour saturation in a Mech list).

It is similar in role to a mortar HWT, but gets more shots, more durability, is not bothered by leadership and has a slightly smaller footprint for the same price. Even 2 is only setting you back 120 points.

In terms of spacing, yes they're terrible when everything is at 2" separation, but the chances of every potential target remaining at that spacing throughout the game is about nil. Units will manoeuvre and bunch up to pass around terrain or other units, and then you'll be hitting them hard. Either that, or it will deter them from doing this, in which case they'll be slower at moving around obstacles and present larger target footprints, meaning there's more chance of your other units drawing LOS.

They are admittedly useless against vehicles, but between cheaper Vanquishers and melta-stormtroopers/vets, I think we have that covered elsewhere.

Do they come close to replacing the effectiveness and versatility of the removed artillery units? No. Are they decent units that can be useful to an army? Yes.

To introduce a new subject, I keep coming back to the Bullgryn. I'm not quite sure what to make of them. I've played Ogryn a bit, and I felt like all they really needed to make them playable was a 4+ armor save. Their lousy leadership could be overcome with attached characters. Well, now they've got the 4+ armor save, but they got it for a 5 point increase and swapped out a decent gun for a crummy one. The slabshields do have some value in their own right, though, both for the Ogryn and for any units cowering behind them. A possible 3+ save for T5, 3 wound models is distinctly tough.

Does a 3+ armor save make them tough enough to do something useful? I think it might. They're 15 points per toughness 5, 3+ save wound. That's better than a tac marine who is pretty durable for his points. They can take orders now, so you can make them run better, but without another leadership upgrade they're only going faster about half the time.

With their stats, they basically need to be hit by heavy weapons to really make much headway. Consequently, I thing they actually be good on foot in AV12 lists. They can provide a cover-save wall for Chimera-vets moving forward toward an objective. Anything that's hitting the Bullgryn is probably also a threat to Chimeras, artillery, or Sentinels. They also would provide a solid counter-attack to any units assaulting a mechanized formation. In a foot-platoon list, I think they can provide some useful cover, but I think most platoons are too big to benefit. In a foot list, I think they'd be more useful leading the charge, as a way to have some concentrated power in a list with a lot of bodies to move. They're a natural target for antitank weapons in a pure foot list, so you probably don't want them in one of those.

I see two real ways to use these guys.

1.) 4-6 with a Priest for giving cover and cc protection to advancing vehicles. ~200-300 points.

2.) 10 with Priest and Inquisitor. The Inquisitor has the Liber Heresius to scout, and probably takes rad grenades and Hammerhand. You also upgrade a few in the second rank to the Power Maul/Brute Shield. This is about 700 points, and actually does hit like a ton of bricks. You've got a few guys swinging at S8 at I2, IDing T5 or less. Everybody else can ID T4 or less, with lots of attacks and lots of hits, and lot's of T5 3+ saves to eat through. It's probably to many points for what it offers.

 Happygrunt wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:


>The year of our lord 2014
>Greentexting outside of 4chan

I have a hard time taking the Wyrven seriously when IG now has PLENTY of options for removing cover (including an order).

I cringe when people do this. I think I pulled a neck muscle.

I don't doubt the Wyvern isn't awful, but its using up precious heavy slots that can be filled with well-rounded units like Russes of most flavours and Manticores.

Don't forget the Manticore is still D3 large blast, netting you an average of 2 Large Blasts per turn, at S10 and AP4.

I don't think its a matter of the Wyvern being bad, but more of it being worth it in contention for proven, take all comer options that can handle everything thrown at them.

Indirectly insulting me and turning your nose up at me because of internet etiquette. I'd say I cringed, or more likely, laughed, but I didn't, mostly because in my experience the internet doesn't cause that sort of physical reaction.

Some people need to descend from their correctional high horses.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Russes can be taken as HQ choices, most often you'll be taking max 2 Manticores, and a single Manticore costs almost as much as 3 Wyverns, has a chance to flop and give you one pie plate, or miss the single ranging pie plate, and even with 2 S10 AP4 pie plates are you really getting better than 12 TL S4 Shred small blasts? I'd say almost certainly not.

Relax my friend, I was just having a but of fun. Not often do I get to make stupid comments (Intentionally you gits!), I was hoping the Costanza style intro would lead you on to the sarcasm.

The thing is that HQ russes SOUND good, but they have to be in a squadron and you will only ever be taking one of them as your other slot will be some order wielding character.

Manticores have the advantage, at least in my case, because I can tank hunt with them if I need to. Wyrvens can't.

Except, the majority of time your Russes can split fire, and the squadron mates are keeping your mandatory Pasknisher nice and alive.

Biophysical wrote:
To introduce a new subject, I keep coming back to the Bullgryn. I'm not quite sure what to make of them. I've played Ogryn a bit, and I felt like all they really needed to make them playable was a 4+ armor save. Their lousy leadership could be overcome with attached characters. Well, now they've got the 4+ armor save, but they got it for a 5 point increase and swapped out a decent gun for a crummy one. The slabshields do have some value in their own right, though, both for the Ogryn and for any units cowering behind them. A possible 3+ save for T5, 3 wound models is distinctly tough.

Does a 3+ armor save make them tough enough to do something useful?

Honestly, I don't think the Sv4+ is going to be doing much. Ogryn are so expensive that you're not that likely to have much else by means of vehicles in your list, which means they get a nasty tendency to get anti-tank weapons shot at them. They also fall into that annoying little niche of where you actually want heavy bolters and autocannons and the like, which have an unfortunate tendency to be Ap4 as well.

Now, talking about 3+ save makes it a different story. The problem, though, is that the hardest counters to ogryn are those S10 wepaons which are getting rarer, but still exist, especially in the form of smash attacks. In this case, the big shields help them against one set of things that hurts them, but not the other, and to do this, the ogryn need to be more expensive and have pretty crappy killing power, which is bad for a unit that's so expensive. At that price too it's hard to justify just as mobile cover, since the other ogryn do nearly as good of a job for either cheaper, and with better weapons.

The mace bullgryn are the interesting ones, though, as that 5++ helps against both Ap4 and against S10. And they're S8 on the charge, which is nice. The only problem, of course, is that you're not doing anything until you're in close combat, which is a small drawback given that this is where ogryn are usually best, but there ARE times when, even with an invul save, it's going to be a bit dicey being in close combat. And the versatility of ripper guns is nice. Prescience with 30 S5 shots picks an AV10 flier out of the sky with a single volley, and can take down raiders, rather than futilely chasing after them as they poison you to death.

6th ed is such a shooty edition that something that is both shooty and cheaper is going to get a big leg-up. Bullgryn may be better in close combat by a lot... but I think I might honestly stick with just regular ogryn here. Especially since the difference between 10 ogryn and 10 mace bullgryn is a whopping THREE HUNDRED POINTS. That's 17 regular ogryn against 10 mace bullgryn, or said bullgryn against 10 regular ogryn and two punishers. I think I know which wins that contest.

Actually, Ogryn lost furious charge when they got hammer of wrath. So mace Bullgryn are S7 unless buffed by something else. I do love me my ripper guns, I'm just tired of 5+ saves.

I have been thing of going with a 1 for every 3 Bullgryn armed with the Grenade Launcher to act as mobile ADL for a unit.
That could make a real good cover for a couple of Russ's with Smoke and Camo Nets.

Biophysical wrote:
Actually, Ogryn lost furious charge when they got hammer of wrath.

Derp.

Anpu42 wrote:I have been thing of going with a 1 for every 3 Bullgryn armed with the Grenade Launcher to act as mobile ADL for a unit.

I've been thinking about it, but there's an annoying problem. The maces get a ++, but the GLs don't. That means that the GLs keep the maces safe from exactly Ap4, but nothing else, while you'd actually want them in the REAR of the squad when AP1-3 weapons come by, because you'd want the invul save to take the hits. If the big shield gave both a +1 to Sv and also conferred a ++, well that would be a different matter, but as it is, it's not obvious that the maces are what need protection from the big shields, and not the other way around.

The one way to fix this, of course, is to go fishing for forewarning, but that makes the squad even more expensive, and you're not guaranteed to get it, or have the power go off when it needs to. When we're talking about a unit that now costs over 500 points, the idea of having it be a maybe you get a 4++, maybe you're just screwed is a little dicey, especially on a model that can get sniped.

 Ailaros wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
Actually, Ogryn lost furious charge when they got hammer of wrath.

Derp.

Anpu42 wrote:I have been thing of going with a 1 for every 3 Bullgryn armed with the Grenade Launcher to act as mobile ADL for a unit.

I've been thinking about it, but there's an annoying problem. The maces get a ++, but the GLs don't. That means that the GLs keep the maces safe from exactly Ap4, but nothing else, while you'd actually want them in the REAR of the squad when AP1-3 weapons come by, because you'd want the invul save to take the hits. If the big shield gave both a +1 to Sv and also conferred a ++, well that would be a different matter, but as it is, it's not obvious that the maces are what need protection from the big shields, and not the other way around.

The one way to fix this, of course, is to go fishing for forewarning, but that makes the squad even more expensive, and you're not guaranteed to get it, or have the power go off when it needs to. When we're talking about a unit that now costs over 500 points, the idea of having it be a maybe you get a 4++, maybe you're just screwed is a little dicey, especially on a model that can get sniped.

I had though about fishing [Three times] for Fire Shield, at the least I add a Flamer Template, and then fishing for Forboding if that fails. Though we do not play in a real "Competative Group".

I think bullgrys with shield mace would be pretty good in the right list.

Having directional mobile cover is no joke. If you have enough hulls then they are not going to be the priority target if they are sitting in your table side. I think they would be great for protecting artillery since they are a pretty significant close combat threat(especially with a priest) so any fast units that deep strike, outflank etc are going to get mulched before they can get a charge off. Throw camo on the vehicles. Put em behind an Aegis and now they are getting 2+ cover from the front.

I can see a basilisk, manticore groups being protected well by bullgryns.

Vegans of warhammer. Lol.

Anyways, the problem I have with mobile cover is that they're super expensive. Other, cheaper units can also give out cover saves, and camo netting is super cheap in this rules edition. Plus, if it's artillery, you won't need mobile cover anyways, so just buy an aegis.

Last time around, I noted that ogryn could be used as cover, which they can do better this time around, but giving cover saves was only ONE of the things that ogryn did. It's kind of hard to avoid thinking about the large shield ogryn as that's all they do.

Plus, taking mace bullgryn to pass out a cover save, is just as strange of an idea as buying a squad of THSS terminators just to provide bubble wrap for some razorbacks.

 Ailaros wrote:
Vegans of warhammer. Lol.

Anyways, the problem I have with mobile cover is that they're super expensive. Other, cheaper units can also give out cover saves, and camo netting is super cheap in this rules edition. Plus, if it's artillery, you won't need mobile cover anyways, so just buy an aegis.

Last time around, I noted that ogryn could be used as cover, which they can do better this time around, but giving cover saves was only ONE of the things that ogryn did. It's kind of hard to avoid thinking about the large shield ogryn as that's all they do.

Plus, taking mace bullgryn to pass out a cover save, is just as strange of an idea as buying a squad of THSS terminators just to provide bubble wrap for some razorbacks.

I think people would want to take the bullgryn for the cover if they were already planning to use an aegis and camo netting. They all stack, thus conferring a 2+ cover save. Since most anti-cover weapons are relatively low strength, vehicles gain more from the ability to stack cover bonuses.

The primary exception that comes to mind is IG, with HWS getting issued the no cover save order. As always, IG seems to primarily excel at murdering other IG.