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If you need a 200pt unit to give your artillery cover, I might suggest playing with some terrain.

But come on, are you going to spend 400 points just to improve the cover save of a couple of vehicles by 1?

 Ailaros wrote:
But come on, are you going to spend 400 points just to improve the cover save of a couple of vehicles by 1?

Nope.

I played the following list at 600 today:

CCS, 3 Meltas, Chimera, Astropath

Barebones Priest

Scion Squad of 5, 2 Plasma Guns

Veterans, 3 Meltas, Chimera

Barebones Infantry Platoon

On the second turn of the game, after my opponent jumped his Wraithknight into the midfield and shaved some hull points off my vehicles, I rushed the Chimera squads forwards, the Astropath casted Psychic Shriek and I rolled 17 on the 3D6 after he failed his DTW.

Of those 7 wounds, he passed two with the 5+ invuln, and a meltagun from the CCS finished it off. Bearing in mind that was half my opponent's points, and the fact that the Astropath made his points back literally 10 times over, I think he's quite the reasonable choice in a Mech list.

The Scions deepstruck turn 2, the PCS walked on from reserves (trying to stop my opponent from grabbing first blood) and the former got a hit, landing dead on as the latter issued FFTE!, letting the Scions gun down some Wraithguard before retreating into a forest. Later, some Wraithguard and a Spiritseer charged my platoon blob with the Priest in, and the Priest used the hymn that let me re-roll failed to wounds. The Sergeants alone killed two Wraithguard, the rest of the Guardsmen bayoneted the Seer to death.

Perfect luck this game, undeniably, but I am incredibly impressed with the potential of the Astropath.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
I played the following list at 600 today:

CCS, 3 Meltas, Chimera, Astropath

Barebones Priest

Scion Squad of 5, 2 Plasma Guns

Veterans, 3 Meltas, Chimera

Barebones Infantry Platoon

On the second turn of the game, after my opponent jumped his Wraithknight into the midfield and shaved some hull points off my vehicles, I rushed the Chimera squads forwards, the Astropath casted Psychic Shriek and I rolled 17 on the 3D6 after he failed his DTW.

Of those 7 wounds, he passed two with the 5+ invuln, and a meltagun from the CCS finished it off. Bearing in mind that was half my opponent's points, and the fact that the Astropath made his points back literally 10 times over, I think he's quite the reasonable choice in a Mech list.

The Scions deepstruck turn 2, the PCS walked on from reserves (trying to stop my opponent from grabbing first blood) and the former got a hit, landing dead on as the latter issued FFTE!, letting the Scions gun down some Wraithguard before retreating into a forest. Later, some Wraithguard and a Spiritseer charged my platoon blob with the Priest in, and the Priest used the hymn that let me re-roll failed to wounds. The Sergeants alone killed two Wraithguard, the rest of the Guardsmen bayoneted the Seer to death.

Perfect luck this game, undeniably, but I am incredibly impressed with the potential of the Astropath.

Psychic shriek is a pretty awesome power as someone who was quite fond of it back when Tyranids could actually have it rather than need to roll for a downgraded version. It's easily one of the most potentially devastating offensive psychic abilities around and having cheap access to it is a gift.

 Ailaros wrote:
But come on, are you going to spend 400 points just to improve the cover save of a couple of vehicles by 1?

Well, 400 no. But The rules for the ogryn state that that it just has to be partially obscured to recieve the bonus. In which case a squad of 3 or 4 (at 145 or 190 respecivily) can do it and be a reasonable buffer for anything that reaches the rear lines. I don't presently have any room for Bullgryn in my present lists, but I could look at using them in the future. Tau and Eldar are under-represented where I am, mostly play against SM, Nids and Orks. And against 2 of those opponents, Ogryn or Bullgryn of either variety aren't a terrible purchase. But time will tell.

I'm currently liking heavy mech lists using vanquisher squadrons for Anti-vehicle, plasma vets for anti-MEQ/TEQ,manticores/deathstrike for in general barrage schenanigans, and fortifications for anti-air.

 Crablezworth wrote:
If you need a 200pt unit to give your artillery cover, I might suggest playing with some terrain.

Well played

Seriously, bullgryns suck, even with the invuln for one reason. With the extra points you sunk into bullgryn you could put a pair of primaris psychers in that unit and just fish for powers. I mean come on, prescienced ripper guns and a forewarning, way better in and out of hth then the bullgryns.

If I need an aegis I'll by the cheaper ADL get a better hydra (quadgn) and my wall doesn't even shrink when dealt wounds

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
If you need a 200pt unit to give your artillery cover, I might suggest playing with some terrain.

Well played

Seriously, bullgryns suck, even with the invuln for one reason. With the extra points you sunk into bullgryn you could put a pair of primaris psychers in that unit and just fish for powers. I mean come on, prescienced ripper guns and a forewarning, way better in and out of hth then the bullgryns.

If I need an aegis I'll by the cheaper ADL get a better hydra (quadgn) and my wall doesn't even shrink when dealt wounds

Ogryns serve one purpose, and that is to charge into a combat they can hopefully win or tarpit in and dish out a small bucket of AP - wounds, that won't break an elite CC unit anyway.

Bullgryns can do exactly that too, only really losing out on mediocre guns, but gaining the ability to synergize with your infantry blobs, tanks and important stuff by giving them a constant 4+ or better cover. They can absorb quite a fair amount of fire so long as they're not being smashed with S10 blasts, which are exceedingly rare, and rarer still worthwhile.

Yes you can buy an ADL, but that ADL can't move, meaning your scoring units evaporate as fast usual if they need to move, and your offensive blobs can't use it for more than a turn. If you need to buy a Quad Gun, you're probably doing something wrong. The wall will take losses, but not quickly, and with every shot thrown at the Bullgryns instead, more of your infantry are going to meet the enemy.

Yes, they're more expensive, but with the supplemental benefits of their inclusion that will always be useful, instead of an unimpressive melee ability that is only sometimes useful, even with a PP or two in there, when you need a Priest too, and you want your PP's elsewhere, the choice is clear for me.

 Red Corsair wrote:


Seriously, bullgryns suck, even with the invuln for one reason. With the extra points you sunk into bullgryn you could put a pair of primaris psychers in that unit and just fish for powers. I mean come on, prescienced ripper guns and a forewarning, way better in and out of hth then the bullgryns.

If I need an aegis I'll by the cheaper ADL get a better hydra (quadgn) and my wall doesn't even shrink when dealt wounds

This really hit a the nail on the head. Psykers fishing for defensive powers are bringing a lot more for the cost to upgrade Ogs to Bulls.

Well, there are two things to credit to bullgryns in general. The first is that they don't need those psychic abilities as much, which means they don't have to rely on you getting certain powers and getting them off at the right time, but they also free up your psykers to do something else. The second is that they're still S+2 Ap4. No psychic power replicates that.

Agreed, but that's more of just a nice bonus. Overall killing power per point still favors regular Ogryn.

I'd stick with regular Ogryn. I don't like the idea of bringing units just for cover saves (There are better and cheaper options), and I'd rather have something that works in CC and at range (albeit short) that just in CC.

Prescience on Ripper Guns is nice, and the 5+ save isn't that much of an issue, as T5 mitigates a lot of the weakness to small arms. Really, I think Ogryns gained from this codex, as they can now take priests and better/cheaper psykers. The loss of Furious Charge hurt, but I think the other buffing options make up for it.

 Paradigm wrote:
(There are better and cheaper options),

[Citation needed]

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
(There are better and cheaper options),

[Citation needed]

ADL, conscripts, infantry, any vehicle? Something we are not lacking is the ability to shield units.

Plus, why bother shielding things when you can just buy more things to kill other things with?

 Blacksails wrote:
Plus, why bother shielding things when you can just buy more things to kill other things with?

Give him a cookie. The best defense is a good offense. Turtling hind 400 points of ogryn with absolutely no offense per point is a horrible idea.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, there are two things to credit to bullgryns in general. The first is that they don't need those psychic abilities as much, which means they don't have to rely on you getting certain powers and getting them off at the right time, but they also free up your psykers to do something else. The second is that they're still S+2 Ap4. No psychic power replicates that.

Your already spending ludicrous amounts of points on bullgryns, more with the stick and shield variety, all that and they still need to be baby sat by a character. Yea sorry that unit is a fail IMO. It's not like regular ogryn with a priest will need the maul to be affective in CC. If I were to field ogryn this edition, its the vanilla variety all the way with a PP.

Played my first few games today against Eldar and then Dark Eldar w/Eldar allies.

The first list I played had Pask in a Punisher, a couple of Plasma vet squads, a Vendetta, and a 40 man blob with lascannons/plasma guns/Primaris (prescience and 4++)/Priest. The game was against a TAC Eldar list (which means only 2 serpents lol), and despite getting tabled on Turn 7 the Guard put up a solid fight. Pask put a serious hurtin' on some War Walkers and part of a Jetseer squadron and the blob was very resilient.

Second game was against Deldar/Eldar with a couple Venoms, Ravagers, and Raiders along with a small Jetseer council/Crimson Hunter. I had Pask in a Vanquisher with another Vanq. buddy this time and between him and two 30 man blobs with lascannons they made quick work of the Deldar skimmers, and had it not been for the Jetbikes with the Farseer and the Crimson Hunter the game would have been very one sided.

These were the first games I've played with the new Codex, and I was pretty impressed. I was never a foot guard player but the heavy weapons and durability when paired with a primaris and priest was awesome. Pask will be an auto-include for me, as the Punisher with MM and LC was absolutely deadly. I'll probably get another game in on Tuesday to try out some new things...

In terms of the discussions earlier in the thread about blobs vs. MSU, I liked the split approach of having a few medium sized blobs supported by tanks and vets/scions. It makes the opponent prioritize and allows you to split up your firepower to where you need it, the split fire order isn't going to do this for you - trust me.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
(There are better and cheaper options),

[Citation needed]

ADL, conscripts, infantry, any vehicle? Something we are not lacking is the ability to shield units.

ADL can't move, Conscripts suck if not in obscene numbers and with a character attached, and if that character isn't a good challenger say goodbye to the entire unit after your opponent issues one challenge. Plus, you only get at best a 5+ cover. With vehicles either you're affecting their firepower potential adversely, or putting them in peril, or both.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
(There are better and cheaper options),

[Citation needed]

ADL, conscripts, infantry, any vehicle? Something we are not lacking is the ability to shield units.

ADL can't move, Conscripts suck if not in obscene numbers and with a character attached, and if that character isn't a good challenger say goodbye to the entire unit after your opponent issues one challenge. Plus, you only get at best a 5+ cover. With vehicles either you're affecting their firepower potential adversely, or putting them in peril, or both.

And your priest that is making this blob fearless accepts that challenge, because?

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Plus, why bother shielding things when you can just buy more things to kill other things with?

Give him a cookie. The best defense is a good offense. Turtling hind 400 points of ogryn with absolutely no offense per point is a horrible idea.

No offense per point? That's a complete load of toss. A squad of Bullgryns can still do a fair amount of damage to any non-dedicated CC units it charges, and won't go down easily regardless, even without Mauls.

5 Bullgryns and a Priest is 260 points, and can give a squadron of tanks a consistent 4+ cover (that's basically the real winner here) where potentially saving multiple tanks and opening up the opportunities you can exploit (without that 4+ cover, you'd be far less likely to put yourself in the line of fire to get a better shot) is a considerably better investment than 1.5 more,

Yes you could buy more infantry, but that infantry takes up a massive area and by having excessive amounts of them you're forced to cram them together more, just to give one reason not to.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, there are two things to credit to bullgryns in general. The first is that they don't need those psychic abilities as much, which means they don't have to rely on you getting certain powers and getting them off at the right time, but they also free up your psykers to do something else. The second is that they're still S+2 Ap4. No psychic power replicates that.

Your already spending ludicrous amounts of points on bullgryns, more with the stick and shield variety, all that and they still need to be baby sat by a character.

Yes they're expensive, but a reasonable CC unit, tarpit and wound absorber that lets your vital units, foremost tanks, ignore half of all incoming firepower is invaluable.

Yea sorry that unit is a fail IMO. It's not like regular ogryn with a priest will need the maul to be affective in CC.

I wouldn't take them myself, but I do so some potential with Maulgryns as if you're fighting something like an MC or high initiative unit, if you hit it once after being hit back, you're guaranteed to get a second round of attacks in without any further damage reducing it before it starts because of concussive. Plus, the higher strength is considerably useful against the former. You don't even need your Bullgryns to wind the MC down from full wounds- the rest of your army can weaken it in shooting.

If I were to field ogryn this edition, its the vanilla variety all the way with a PP.

Ogryns are just meh. They give mediocre CC ability that might bully a light/medium infantry unit into submission, and they'll fold easier than Bullgryns under stress without carapace (if you have to face down AP5 from say, Firewarriors or Shuriken weapons, wave goodbye to your unit)

Well, I know that for 260pts, I'd just rather have two extra russes, like a pair of Exterminators.

Bringing Bullgryn for the cover save isn't necessarily a bad idea, I'd just much prefer the AV saturation.

Also, I prefer tank hulls over the Ogryn models, but that's just my personal preference.

*Edit* And I know this isn't the first time someone has said this, your method of quoting could at least be improved by a different colour. Would make it pop and stand out a little more.

Like maybe some crimson...or chartreuse...or yellow...no, not yellow.

Mavnas wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
(There are better and cheaper options),

[Citation needed]

ADL, conscripts, infantry, any vehicle? Something we are not lacking is the ability to shield units.

ADL can't move, Conscripts suck if not in obscene numbers and with a character attached, and if that character isn't a good challenger say goodbye to the entire unit after your opponent issues one challenge. Plus, you only get at best a 5+ cover. With vehicles either you're affecting their firepower potential adversely, or putting them in peril, or both.

And your priest that is making this blob fearless accepts that challenge, because?

My bad, I needed to check up on the rules on refusing a challenge. I remembered it as losing conferred special rules and LD, turns out its just the latter.

Well, how about this. Bullgryn are S7 Ap4, right? So are autocannons, right? Some people like those.

In this case, you spend 1 or 2 turns (depending on if they accept run orders, etc.) where you're not shooting, but then you arrive with 41 S7 Ap4 attacks.

If it gets set up right, a squad of bullgryns can wipe out an entire parking lot in a single charge. Especially since all those attacks hit on "BS4" and all hit rear armor.

 Blacksails wrote:
Well, I know that for 260pts, I'd just rather have two extra russes, like a pair of Exterminators.

Bringing Bullgryn for the cover save isn't necessarily a bad idea, I'd just much prefer the AV saturation.

Also, I prefer tank hulls over the Ogryn models, but that's just my personal preference.

*Edit* And I know this isn't the first time someone has said this, your method of quoting could at least be improved by a different colour. Would make it pop and stand out a little more.

Like maybe some crimson...or chartreuse...or yellow...no, not yellow.

Exterminators are pretty terrible. Autocannons have never impressed me and I see no reason to ever bother with a light anti-tank weapon that is barely decent at its primary role, is useless for the most part against MC's, and extremely poor in comparison to other Russes in anti-infantry. Chant "all round, flexible, yaddi-daddi-da" all you want, that mantra is laughable.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Well, I know that for 260pts, I'd just rather have two extra russes, like a pair of Exterminators.

Bringing Bullgryn for the cover save isn't necessarily a bad idea, I'd just much prefer the AV saturation.

Also, I prefer tank hulls over the Ogryn models, but that's just my personal preference.

*Edit* And I know this isn't the first time someone has said this, your method of quoting could at least be improved by a different colour. Would make it pop and stand out a little more.

Like maybe some crimson...or chartreuse...or yellow...no, not yellow.

Exterminators are pretty terrible. Autocannons have never impressed me and I see no reason to ever bother with a light anti-tank weapon that is barely decent at its primary role, is useless for the most part against MC's, and extremely poor in comparison to other Russes in anti-infantry. Chant "all round, flexible, yaddi-daddi-da" all you want, that mantra is laughable.

It was an example to illustrate I'd take Russ hulls over Bullgryns that happened to match the exact cost of your example.

I'd probably run some Vanquishers, or Eradicators, or Punishers, or Executioners if I had some divination slaves to go around.

So, I just realized that with a senior officer to give the Bring it Down order, the quad gun isn't quite terrible against a Helldrake, if you're willing to forego the Interceptor so that it may be fired on your turn.

Mavnas wrote:
So, I just realized that with a senior officer to give the Bring it Down order, the quad gun isn't quite terrible against a Helldrake, if you're willing to forego the Interceptor so that it may be fired on your turn.

If you don't use interceptor, how long are the guys manning that gun or giving the orders going to last haha?

You can move up a new squad to it and fire it.

Edit: When faced with a problem, throw more men at it! (Oppan guardsman style!)

In theory that sounds great, in practice you won't always have that second unit and there's always the chance it torches the CCS you were going to use to give those orders. I'd rather try to intercept it and stop it from killing anyone than hope that it doesn't torch my guys just for the chance that a unit that likely has crap LD will pass a test so it can re-roll armor pen on 4 shots that are AP4...

Well, you can always decide when it's done moving based on what's in range to get BBQd.