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Yeah, they're squishier and can't put down precise shots, and can't also take multimeltas, lascannons, AV14 bodyguards, and tank orders. Pask is much, MUCH better.

And that short range is rather mitigated by the tank order that lets them spend a turn moving like a normal tank.

 Blacksails wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Don't like the mustache twirling?

I decided change was good and with starting a Vostroyan army as my primary army it fits.

Are you just starting a Guard army? And a Vostroyan at that?

If so, carry on with my blessing. Go forth fellow commander!

Well, I'm going to attempt to start a Praetorian Guard army, which isn't even mentioned in the current codex :( Going to see how far eBay gets me before I have to do some serious converting/3rd party stuff. Not sure how to handle the vehicles.

Mavnas wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Don't like the mustache twirling?

I decided change was good and with starting a Vostroyan army as my primary army it fits.

Are you just starting a Guard army? And a Vostroyan at that?

If so, carry on with my blessing. Go forth fellow commander!

Well, I'm going to attempt to start a Praetorian Guard army, which isn't even mentioned in the current codex :( Going to see how far eBay gets me before I have to do some serious converting/3rd party stuff. Not sure how to handle the vehicles.

Vehicles for Guard are largely standardized so you shouldn't need to go too special with those. I read Victoria Lamb does some stuff that would fit rather nicely, but that was some posts from a few years ago so take that with salt just in case I'm wrong.

And it's actually because Praetorian Guard were phased out like they were that I'm looking at starting Vostroyans before it's too late. I've already noticed that there are models (Commander with Power Fist, Officer with Chainsword for instance) missing and if I wait too long they'll disappear completely before I can field them as an army, so I'm not stalling anymore.

 Ailaros wrote:
So, the pask punisher has a 50% chance to stick a lascannon or a multimelta shot on the model of his choice (which will probably wound, and ignores armor). Then, on top of that, he puts down slightly over 3 more precise shots with the gatling gun, which means another 50% chance for an Ap2 shot that this time DOES auto-wound.

That means, on average, you should expect to put one Ap2 wound on the model of your choice, with a roughly even chance of doing it twice as not at all. Plus, you also will usually get another two S5 Ap- hits on the model of your choice as well, including that huge pile of hits and wound which will allow you to pick out "hidden" stuff with just wound allocation.

On a tank that's already good against everything.

And the only cost is being forced to take another leman russ to put him with. Boo hoo.

You mean he has a 1 in 3 chance of making a guy fail a LoS! test, and if that guy is T5, you get to strip off a wound if you beat his 4++? Otherwise you do get to ID something, but anything worth a lot isn't going to die. Some special weapons, sure, but at the amount of points you'd spent, you're really needing to sweep squads off the table for it to be worthwhile. Not saying Pask can't make his points back, but I'm saying he's not over costed given the odds that a single penetrating hit will instantly cost you about 250 points. It's not like your enemy can't take Vendettas or Vanquishers and snipe at him as he's forced to come forward to make use of his 24" gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
And it's actually because Praetorian Guard were phased out like they were that I'm looking at starting Vostroyans before it's too late. I've already noticed that there are models (Commander with Power Fist, Officer with Chainsword for instance) missing and if I wait too long they'll disappear completely before I can field them as an army, so I'm not stalling anymore.

The good news about Praetorian guards is that I can get Zulu wars era British minis for about $1-2 per dude (which will be important when I start thinking about multiple blobs). The downside is that's a lot of dudes who will need a lasgun conversion of some sort.

Mavnas wrote:
You mean he has a 1 in 3 chance of making a guy fail a LoS! test, and if that guy is T5, you get to strip off a wound if you beat his 4++? Otherwise you do get to ID something, but anything worth a lot isn't going to die. Some special weapons, sure, but at the amount of points you'd spent, you're really needing to sweep squads off the table for it to be worthwhile. Not saying Pask can't make his points back, but I'm saying he's not over costed given the odds that a single penetrating hit will instantly cost you about 250 points. It's not like your enemy can't take Vendettas or Vanquishers and snipe at him as he's forced to come forward to make use of his 24" gun.

Put the wound on their Melta gunner instead of the character then.

And I've seen Pask butcher things back before he had Rending on that thing, so him re-rolling 1s to hit and to wound against the codex of your choice that game, AND having Rending AND getting to allocate wounds to things to pick off key support models in a squad (special/heavy weapons mostly) is pretty useful.

Mavnas wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
And it's actually because Praetorian Guard were phased out like they were that I'm looking at starting Vostroyans before it's too late. I've already noticed that there are models (Commander with Power Fist, Officer with Chainsword for instance) missing and if I wait too long they'll disappear completely before I can field them as an army, so I'm not stalling anymore.

The good news about Praetorian guards is that I can get Zulu wars era British minis for about $1-2 per dude (which will be important when I start thinking about multiple blobs). The downside is that's a lot of dudes who will need a lasgun conversion of some sort.

Lasguns come in many forms, and failing getting away with that, just say they're stubbers instead (which have the same profile but use regular ammo).

Mavnas wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
So, the pask punisher has a 50% chance to stick a lascannon or a multimelta shot on the model of his choice (which will probably wound, and ignores armor). Then, on top of that, he puts down slightly over 3 more precise shots with the gatling gun, which means another 50% chance for an Ap2 shot that this time DOES auto-wound.

That means, on average, you should expect to put one Ap2 wound on the model of your choice, with a roughly even chance of doing it twice as not at all. Plus, you also will usually get another two S5 Ap- hits on the model of your choice as well, including that huge pile of hits and wound which will allow you to pick out "hidden" stuff with just wound allocation.

On a tank that's already good against everything.

And the only cost is being forced to take another leman russ to put him with. Boo hoo.

You mean he has a 1 in 3 chance of making a guy fail a LoS! test, and if that guy is T5, you get to strip off a wound if you beat his 4++? Otherwise you do get to ID something, but anything worth a lot isn't going to die. Some special weapons, sure, but at the amount of points you'd spent, you're really needing to sweep squads off the table for it to be worthwhile. Not saying Pask can't make his points back, but I'm saying he's not over costed given the odds that a single penetrating hit will instantly cost you about 250 points. It's not like your enemy can't take Vendettas or Vanquishers and snipe at him as he's forced to come forward to make use of his 24" gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
And it's actually because Praetorian Guard were phased out like they were that I'm looking at starting Vostroyans before it's too late. I've already noticed that there are models (Commander with Power Fist, Officer with Chainsword for instance) missing and if I wait too long they'll disappear completely before I can field them as an army, so I'm not stalling anymore.

The good news about Praetorian guards is that I can get Zulu wars era British minis for about $1-2 per dude (which will be important when I start thinking about multiple blobs). The downside is that's a lot of dudes who will need a lasgun conversion of some sort.

Yes he is 250 points, but there are some key things to remember -the squadron buddy will absorb hits first, we're talking about AV14 so the odds are absurdly low to begin with, and even with a penetrating hit your average AT weapon will at best have a 1/3 chance to destroy the squadron buddy from there. If you let melta get near it you've made a strategic error.

Plus, Strike and Shroud now means that you get a 5+ cover in the most dangerous turn of shootinf,.

How does split fire work in regards to shooting the contents of a transport? It allows you to shoot a different unit, but is it still simultaneous?

 RaptorsTallon wrote:
How does split fire work in regards to shooting the contents of a transport? It allows you to shoot a different unit, but is it still simultaneous?

Yes, it is, so no transport-popping with Commander and content-mulching with his mates.

Hmm... Perhaps then it is more sensible to pair the Pasknisher with another russ that would benefit more from shooting a different target all together then? Perhaps a Vanquisher or an Exterminator?

When shooting at light vehicles, the pasknisher will easily kill it meaning the other tank has to split fire to be useful anyway.

Then, if there is another target as well as light armour, such as infantry, the escort tank can pop the transport and the pasknisher can kill infantry instead, again with split fire, whereas with the Eradicator, the tank is useless unless there is an infantry target, which it may be more likely to find from it's own squadron.

The only point when this setup is worse is when there is either only infantry or when the split fire order is failed, meaning either you overkill a vehicle or some poor infantryman takes a vanquisher round to the face.

Is there any merit to this idea?

Yes he is 250 points, but there are some key things to remember -the squadron buddy will absorb hits first, we're talking about AV14 so the odds are absurdly low to begin with, and even with a penetrating hit your average AT weapon will at best have a 1/3 chance to destroy the squadron buddy from there. If you let melta get near it you've made a strategic error.

Plus, Strike and Shroud now means that you get a 5+ cover in the most dangerous turn of shootinf,.

He's likely got shorter range than his squad mates. Making sure that they eat incoming fire means the second tank is giving up its normal range to cover for Pask. AV14 is nice, but a melta hit still has about a 25% chance to wipe it out in one hit. Tank hunting lascannons have a 1 in 9 or there abouts to explode it. Now that's not too bad unless your opponent could put 5 in a blob, prescience that blob and the order them to kill tanks an MCs. Look at the bright side, if he only took one ML2 Psyker, there's only a 1 in 3 chance he can ignore your cover too. Most 5 LC blobs will have to choose, but if he gets both, he's stripping away slightly more than 2 HP from 48" away. Depending how close that blob started, Pask may never get to do more than strip away the first rank. I'm not saying he can't murder them, I'm saying he actually requires decent tactics to murder things to his full potential.

Also, the second tank makes the unit's footprint bigger so more difficult to protect from melee assault.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RaptorsTallon wrote:
Hmm... Perhaps then it is more sensible to pair the Pasknisher with another russ that would benefit more from shooting a different target all together then? Perhaps a Vanquisher or an Exterminator?

When shooting at light vehicles, the pasknisher will easily kill it meaning the other tank has to split fire to be useful anyway.

Then, if there is another target as well as light armour, such as infantry, the escort tank can pop the transport and the pasknisher can kill infantry instead, again with split fire, whereas with the Eradicator, the tank is useless unless there is an infantry target, which it may be more likely to find from it's own squadron.

The only point when this setup is worse is when there is either only infantry or when the split fire order is failed, meaning either you overkill a vehicle or some poor infantryman takes a vanquisher round to the face.

Is there any merit to this idea?

Pask's biggest strength IMO is that his ideal target is anything. He murders infantry of all types and even has a decent shot at vehicles at AV14. The only bad target for him is a 35 point rhino or something similarly cheap. His partner can specialize in shooting anything, but ideally has better range and targets whatever your enemy brought most of. The only other thing Pask can't really hurt is T9 or 10 with a lot of W or good cover/invuln, but that's OK, no one is particularly good at hitting transcendent c'tans except maybe grav centurions.

Mavnas wrote:You mean he has a 1 in 3 chance of making a guy fail a LoS! test, and if that guy is T5, you get to strip off a wound if you beat his 4++?

I said the most likely result is that he puts an Ap2 wound on the model of his choice, with 3 more regular ones on the model of his choice.

I didn't say he was going to snipe tigurius or abbadon to death at a blow. If you don't apply the wounds to things with a 2+ LoS! then you've got a half chance, and if you don't apply it to a character at all (like a special wargear model, or the model closest to an objective, or whatever), then he doesn't get a LoS! roll at all. Plus, only a tiny number of models get a 4++ anyways.

If you don't assign those 4 picked wounds to the worst possible targets, that ability gets a whole lot better.

If your opponent leaves that many non-characters with cool special weapons out in the open within 24" inches of Pask, then he deserves to be Punished for it. I think his precision shots are a highly situational side benefit. What you paid your points was a guy who is truly versatile in his ideal targets.

Within 30" or within up to 48" over two turns.

And the lascannon on the tank lets him throw wounds further.

And not every unit in the game exists to do damage from further than 30".

More silliness, just because.

Scion Command Squad
Plasma pistol
Plasma gun x4
Priest with plasma gun
Primaris Psyker optional
Transport of choice

"...but this one goes to eleven (plasma shots)"

Biophysical wrote:
More silliness, just because.

Scion Command Squad
Plasma pistol
Plasma gun x4
Priest with plasma gun
Primaris Psyker optional
Transport of choice

"...but this one goes to eleven (plasma shots)"

That's... erm... possibly the most awesome thing ever. Although you could add 2 more Priests...

Biophysical wrote:
More silliness, just because.

Scion Command Squad
Plasma pistol
Plasma gun x4
Priest with plasma gun
Primaris Psyker optional
Transport of choice

"...but this one goes to eleven (plasma shots)"

I tried something like that with dominions with melta, 4 melta shots 3 plasma shots that outflank and ignore cover for one turn. It just wasn't that effective. The unit is too much of a glass cannon. Units that fragile only survive if the don't shoot up to the top of your opponent's target priority.

 Paradigm wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
More silliness, just because.

Scion Command Squad
Plasma pistol
Plasma gun x4
Priest with plasma gun
Primaris Psyker optional
Transport of choice

"...but this one goes to eleven (plasma shots)"

That's... erm... possibly the most awesome thing ever. Although you could add 2 more Priests...

If you did it with a ccs, you could also toss in an astropath with psychic shriek for more ignores armor fun..

 Paradigm wrote:
Although you could add 2 more Priests...

But then it wouldn't be 11, and that is half of why this is cool.

If you take the primaris psyker and make him biomancy/div you can get 4 more shots at S4AP2 from him.

So I guess taking Creed and Pask would be a bit ridiculous, but I want both for the potential 4 orders and Pask's Punisher Circus with Prescience.

I think the best compliment to a Pask Punisher Regiment is an Imperial Knight.

You suddenly shift weight away from the Av14 squad due to the Av13 Super Heavy Walker/Mini-Titan that's advancing with Pask that wants so bad to give you the D.

Arm it with a melta cannon to crack the sweet goods of even the toughtest transports and then let pask and pals vaporize the sweet, sweet goodies on the inside.

If you're paying almost 400 points to have a less than 50% chance to pop open a Rhino each turn...

I'm less and less sold on knights. Has anyone done the math for how many guardsmen they kill per turn if your blob of 50 engages a knight? I've never played the pile in rules too well, but never had units that big. I'm wondering how much they force you to bunch up under the stomp templates, because that epic chainsword is only going to cut down 2 guardsmen a turn.

You can't charge a unit you can't hurt, and you can't stay in close combat against one you can't hurt either.

And you can't just keep that one meltagun guy at the very back of the squad either. Not without tripping the above rule.

 Ailaros wrote:
You can't charge a unit you can't hurt, and you can't stay in close combat against one you can't hurt either.

And you can't just keep that one meltagun guy at the very back of the squad either. Not without tripping the above rule.

This does not apply to walkers anymore. Also a single melta bomb or any S bump to a priest would have gotten around this.

 Ailaros wrote:
So, the pask punisher has a 50% chance to stick a lascannon or a multimelta shot on the model of his choice (which will probably wound, and ignores armor). Then, on top of that, he puts down slightly over 3 more precise shots with the gatling gun, which means another 50% chance for an Ap2 shot that this time DOES auto-wound.

That means, on average, you should expect to put one Ap2 wound on the model of your choice, with a roughly even chance of doing it twice as not at all. Plus, you also will usually get another two S5 Ap- hits on the model of your choice as well, including that huge pile of hits and wound which will allow you to pick out "hidden" stuff with just wound allocation.

On a tank that's already good against everything.

And the only cost is being forced to take another leman russ to put him with. Boo hoo.

Big whoop. You spent 400+ points and you seriously are nit picking over precision shots? When I buy a dedicated shooter for over 400 points, it had better wipe its target out, if its not then its a failure from the word go. If it's last turn and you can't wipe scoring bodies off that objective you have done something horribly wrong.

I honestly think your way better off just taking a bog standard squadron and giving it prescience and orders to suit. A loaded vanquisher is 165, with TL and orders for tank hunting or cover striping or heck why not both, you can easily cripple if not destroy that paskisher turn 1. If he has a blocker then he is that much further back and you'll get another go at him anyway since he is further back and his range isn't awesome.

Hes cool, but he is not broken at his cost. In fact the only tank he really buffs is the punisher, because your going to want to prescience your russes either way, ie. his squadron mates which makes his tank buff for all the others redundant. Since you want to run him in a punisher 99% of the time, he needs to constantly use his fire+flat out order which means they aren't splitting fire without help, yet more investment. This also means he won't have bubble wrap that can keep up with him, meaning DS melta will chew through him, or you stay somewhere safe and don't earn your keep.

I am not saying he is bad, but he is situational, and very expensive, to the point where you will need to model a list around him. Because of these reasons he is in no way close to broken.

You can't order tanks to ignore cover, you can only give them the tank specific orders.

A pask punisher is only 240 points. If you're going to talk about all those extra points, you have to also talk about all the extra stuff you get for them.

What we're talking about is taking pask for a tank. We're only talking about what pask does, which means we should be talking about 70 points here.

70 points to take a punisher and make it rending and give it precise shot along with BS4 and preferred enemy. That's a hell of an upgrade.

Also it's not fire and flat out. It's just a better flat out.

If you are going to run forward blobbs and have a lot of knights to contend with you should think about melta bombs on the sarges. They will also help against walkers and MCs.

The Knight will deal out an average of ~14 guardsmen per stomp assuming you have enough models to place the blast marker over (so ~28 models an assault phase). Knights are brutal against hordes, MCs, and Vehicles. Now the funny thing is if you take a unit of ten and get them all in b2b then the max casualties per stomp is 3 models...

I think pask as warlord then you are gonna want to go vanquisher. Just for that extra protection. Even looking at the cheapest russ as his sidekick(the 120 pts one). However when not a warlord I would say punisher all day.

I think it also has to do with your flier defense. If I am low on flier defense I am going to want pask in a punisher all day long.