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Pretty much that. I mean I think it's a possible worthwhile investment if you have the points.

The thing is, as Camo+Carapace is cheaper now than just one or the other was before, those of us running Grenadiers before and not wanting to change the list too much can basically add Camo Cloaks 'for free' and still save a few points.

I might try an all-camo+carapace list at some point and see how it works out.

What does having both do for us that having just one doesn't? Are we assuming that our vets are in cover and being shot at with a combination of regular and ignores cover weapons?

With the amount of Ap5 ignore cover that tau can put out. Having that 4+ is crucial. Same with eldar having Ap-ignore cover. and IG having AP-ignore cover. Or if your vehicle explodes

It gives you a really good save most of the time and a better save the rest of the time.

Would I do it for 6 squads? Nope, at that point you should just be buying more cheap troopers.

It means that you can play defensive, but aren't hopelessly slaughtered as soon as you break cover, which you will have to do.

It also gives you a better save at going to ground against those nasty AP4s. I mean a vet squad behind a Aegis and going to ground is a 2+ I think.

That's pretty good.

It also has the get back in there or whatever the order is that rallies you and sort of negates going to ground I think.

Hollismason wrote:
It also gives you a better save at going to ground against those nasty AP4s. I mean a vet squad behind a Aegis and going to ground is a 2+ I think.

That's pretty good.

It also has the get back in there or whatever the order is that rallies you and sort of negates going to ground I think.

Going to ground behind the ADL already gets you to 2+.

Carapace is amazing right now, my vets are doing stunning facing the 'nids. I've played 2 games, one i was 850 and my opponent 1500, the second game i had today was both roughly 1000 and i beat him twice. Both times the Vets performed well in close combat when Gaunts attacked positions while in cover. The Scions (who gaunts ghosts have made a brilliant command squad for) did well deepstriking behind enemy lines with. Even the mortar team wiped about a unit in the first game.

The real star are the SWT of snipers which although may not kill the warlord every time do inflict hard wounds and force the hand of my player to reconsider priming it for close combat.

On the other hand my center piece Valkyrie's have not been so useful, usually missing large blat shots or having trouble steering onto the board strangely. Although this i'm more putting down to bad rolling rather than a nerf.

Finally i see no reason to get a leman russ or Hydra, my ADL and Basilisk are pounding the enemy into the floor before they arrive at my board edge anyway.

My wish list is now;

Regimental advisers (to help my scions/planes to get on, along with a free pie plate.),

Another Chimera (these have been really nasty suppressing the enemy.),

Vendetta(just for lascannons)

Maybe another basilisk,

Creed.

tau tse tung wrote:Finally i see no reason to get a leman russ or Hydra, my ADL and Basilisk are pounding the enemy into the floor before they arrive at my board edge anyway.

Just wait until you come across some fliers, monstrous creatures, terminators, or heavy vehicles, or your opponents learn how to use ruins cover or displace.

Best 500 point ally for Imperial guard??

Space Marine Commander w/ Bike

Bike Squad w/ Grav Guns

Yes or no?

Hollismason wrote:
Best 500 point ally for Imperial guard??

Space Marine Commander w/ Bike

Bike Squad w/ Grav Guns

Yes or no?

I've been thinking of doing this

Captain w/ Bike, Power Axe, Shield Eternal
x5 Bikes w/ x2 Grav Gun, Multi-Melta
x4 Bikes w/ x2 Grav Gun

It comes out to 500 points exactly, and I think it would go well with my mech Guard

I got a 378 pts ally force consisting of;

Captain with AA, Storm botler, Relic Blade
5 scouts with bolters, heavy bolter+ hellfire shells, melta bomb
5 scouts with sniper rifles, camo-cloaks, Tellion.
LSS for the botler scouts

Outflank the bolter scouts on the LSS with the sniper starting on the board. As I also use scout sentinels, it can hold up a little more a flank and provide a more lasting diversion, not to mention hold onto an objective.

I also got a Sgt and an officer with bolt pistols for fill in those 2 loose points to round up the points.

I like

Beatstick Chapter Master
5 man bike squad
5 man bike squad

I'm going to figure out how to include a Hellhound, Manticore, my Griffins and mortar teams in a list.

I can't wait until I can afford the codex.

So many toys, so much fun.

Twin linking a Basilisk. 4++ to a 3pt/model blob squad.. & re-roll said save in Close Combat! Give BS4 overwatch to some cultists. The Wyvern. The Hydra (because its still worth it). Hellhounds, Chimeras, orders.

AM is the new black.

Razerous wrote:
So many toys, so much fun.

Twin linking a Basilisk. 4++ to a 3pt/model blob squad.. & re-roll said save in Close Combat! Give BS4 overwatch to some cultists. The Wyvern. The Hydra (because its still worth it). Hellhounds, Chimeras, orders.

AM is the new black.

So we can put you on the undecided/on the fence category? !

If only that rerollable 4++ had a better than half chance of working on any given turn, I might almost get excited about it.

What kind of leadership 9 or 10 tests are you rolling?

I'm rather conflicted about the lowered cost on 4+ armor.

I'm not sold on using it as a solution for ignore cover weapons because of who the top 3 threats are.

Tau with tons of Ap4 MP
Eldar with ap- serp shields
IG with ap-flashlights and ap2 plasma

None of those threats crank out lots of ignore cover ap5 dakka. Tau and Eldar can crank out a lot of ap5, but their ap5 isn't their ignore cover shots.

I am sold on 4+ saves helping with squads in the open since there are a lot of ap5 small arms in the game, but not every squad needs it. Not every squad can stay in cover so it's really for the squads that are going to have a high likelyhood of having to brave open ground.

Leth wrote:What kind of leadership 9 or 10 tests are you rolling?

The psyker needs to roll forewarning in the first place

Then the psyker needs to pass a leadership test to pass out the 4++.

Then the priest needs to pass out a leadership test to make it rerollable.

That's pretty crappy odds of working correctly in any given phase, and even then, it only works in close combat.

schadenfreude wrote:Tau with tons of Ap4 MP
Eldar with ap- serp shields
IG with ap-flashlights and ap2 plasma

Tau also have a lot of Ap5 pulse weapons as well.

And for SM, DA, BA, GK, SW, CSM, Eldar, DE, SoB, and Tau all have basic troops choices with Ap5 weapons, and odds are you'll see at least one of those armies occasionally. And that's to say nothing for the grab bag of non-small-arms that are also Ap5 like flamers, big shootas, etc.

And last I checked, Sv4+ made you less likely to be killed by Ap- weapons as well.

Yeah, carapace won't make you better against meltaguns, but then congratulations, your opponent is shooting slightly expensive guardsmen with meltaguns. The only time when carapace is seriously unuseful is against those weapons which are both Ap4 (or better) and ignores cover. They're out there, of course, but having a hard counter doesn't make it useless in every other case that isn't the hard counter.

 Ailaros wrote:

Leth wrote:What kind of leadership 9 or 10 tests are you rolling?

The psyker needs to roll forewarning in the first place

Then the psyker needs to pass a leadership test to pass out the 4++.

Then the priest needs to pass out a leadership test to make it rerollable.

That's pretty crappy odds of working correctly in any given phase, and even then, it only works in close combat.

schadenfreude wrote:Tau with tons of Ap4 MP
Eldar with ap- serp shields
IG with ap-flashlights and ap2 plasma

Tau also have a lot of Ap5 pulse weapons as well.

And for SM, DA, BA, GK, SW, CSM, Eldar, DE, SoB, and Tau all have basic troops choices with Ap5 weapons, and odds are you'll see at least one of those armies occasionally. And that's to say nothing for the grab bag of non-small-arms that are also Ap5 like flamers, big shootas, etc.

And last I checked, Sv4+ made you less likely to be killed by Ap- weapons as well.

Yeah, carapace won't make you better against meltaguns, but then congratulations, your opponent is shooting slightly expensive guardsmen with meltaguns. The only time when carapace is seriously unuseful is against those weapons which are both Ap4 (or better) and ignores cover. They're out there, of course, but having a hard counter doesn't make it useless in every other case that isn't the hard counter.

Necrons and Tyranids also mostly use AP5 or Worse on their most commonly seen models.

Orks do get quite a bit of Ap4 from Lootas, but they have practically no ignores cover at all, so feel free to bunker down with camocloaks.

Going from 5+ to 4+ means 33% more survivability. Now obviously if your squad is taking more than enough firepower to kill it, that won't matter.

Oh, also, to reiterate, the #1 killer of my veterans has always been caused by the explosion of their transport. When my vets bail out of the wreckage of their chimera with half their number, and no abblative wounds, that really stinks.

 Kain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Leth wrote:What kind of leadership 9 or 10 tests are you rolling?

The psyker needs to roll forewarning in the first place

Then the psyker needs to pass a leadership test to pass out the 4++.

Then the priest needs to pass out a leadership test to make it rerollable.

That's pretty crappy odds of working correctly in any given phase, and even then, it only works in close combat.

schadenfreude wrote:Tau with tons of Ap4 MP
Eldar with ap- serp shields
IG with ap-flashlights and ap2 plasma

Tau also have a lot of Ap5 pulse weapons as well.

And for SM, DA, BA, GK, SW, CSM, Eldar, DE, SoB, and Tau all have basic troops choices with Ap5 weapons, and odds are you'll see at least one of those armies occasionally. And that's to say nothing for the grab bag of non-small-arms that are also Ap5 like flamers, big shootas, etc.

And last I checked, Sv4+ made you less likely to be killed by Ap- weapons as well.

Yeah, carapace won't make you better against meltaguns, but then congratulations, your opponent is shooting slightly expensive guardsmen with meltaguns. The only time when carapace is seriously unuseful is against those weapons which are both Ap4 (or better) and ignores cover. They're out there, of course, but having a hard counter doesn't make it useless in every other case that isn't the hard counter.

Necrons and Tyranids also mostly use AP5 or Worse on their most commonly seen models.

Orks do get quite a bit of Ap4 from Lootas, but they have practically no ignores cover at all, so feel free to bunker down with camocloaks.

The huge # of ap5 shots are not ignore cover.

My point is the meta will usually throw

ap5 firepower that can be saved with cover (the huge list)

Tau ap4 ignore cover (4+ moot)

wave serp ap- ignore cover (5+ still works)

IG ignore cover (ap- flashlights, heavy/special weps)

Final verdict was 4+ armor is only really good for having a 4+ armor ie upgrading a 5+ cover/armor to a 4+ and will rarely be used to upgrade a completely negated save to a 4+. The decision to buy it should be based on if you feel that's worth 1.5 points. IMO that's a big maybe depends on what you're planing to do with the squad, but not needed on 100% of your troops.

Just to add to your list:

-Tau SMS are AP5, ignore cover, ignore LoS weapons that can be spread throughout the army. The mainline S7 AP4 cover ignoring weapons are usually clumped up in 1 or 2 groups, and they're going after tanks.

This doesn't really negate your point (which I think is sound), but it's something to think about with Tau. Additionally, though, I'd say you take carapace armor to get a save vs AP5 small arms when you're not in cover. That can be pretty huge on a unit moving for an objective. Carapace gives you a chance to spend a turn in the open to make an objective grab.

schadenfreude wrote:ap5 firepower that can be saved with cover (the huge list)

But Sv4+ isn't beholden to cover. They get a save without being forced to cower somewhere, or worse, being in 5+ cover and being forced to go to ground to get a 4+.

One might as well ask what's the point of Sv2+ when you can always get a 2+ cover save by going to ground behind an aegis? But we know that terminators are still useful for lots of reasons, regardless.

Sometimes better is just better.

schadenfreude wrote:wave serp ap- ignore cover (5+ still works)

Final verdict was 4+ armor is only really good for having a 4+ armor ie upgrading a 5+ cover/armor to a 4+ and will rarely be used to upgrade a completely negated save to a 4+.

Yes, a Sv5+ works on Ap-, but what also works against Ap-? Sv4+, and Sv4+ works even better than Sv5+.

And there's a pretty big pile of things that both get to make saves against where Sv4+ gets to make a better save. Everything from being caught in vehicle explosions, to being in close combat, to dangerous terrain checks, to going up against Ap6 or worse weapons.

And sometimes things do ignore cover, whether Ap5 barrage, or things like flamers. And sometimes you won't always get cover saves even when you would otherwise get cover, like drop pod showing up behind your aegis, or your opponent using the focus fire rule.

The conclusion you've come to is only a not non-sequitur in that tiny band of cases where you're just playing against missileside tau or always get to take cover saves against every attack that is made against you. If you can always engineer these circumstances, then yeah, carapace is going to be less useful. Once again, though, just because there are hard counters to something doesn't make that something worthless, as everything has hard counters to it.

More broadly, carapace can be useful, which means you're much more likely to get use out of it than to happen to be up against one of those hard counters.

Mechanized units usually suffer 1 of 3 fates when the transport goes.

#1 It assplodes which kills about half the squad and leaves the rest in a 5+ cover area terrain. Small arms can then tear the unit up and they will be forced to g2g. The unit would still suffer badlosses with a 4+, but would have a reasonable chance of keeping special weapons alive 1 more turn to get a shot off.

#2 It wrecks and the squad gets caught out in the open by small arms before they can get into cover. This is where caraprice will really shine.

#3 It wrecks but the wreck blocks los and the squad gets into cover. Camo cloaks is probably better in this situation, but this situation can never be counted on to happen.

Overall caraprice seems like a good idea for mech vets.

Backfield objective holders are another story. They don't have to leave cover, are a safer range for enemy flamers, and need to worry more about long range dakka. In this case 5 point models with a 5+ are going to be more durable than 7.5 point models with a 4+ making platoons or camo vets a better option.

I'm not dismissing a 4+, I am saying some IG players are going overboard with it.

@Ailaros- Terminators are useless. They are the worst example you could use IMO. Terminators get better the MORE expensive their opponent gets generally. They are also grossly over priced in this edition.

I think you make good points that a 4+ can be a huge boon though. The problem I have is foot vets aren't going to seize ground well anyway. Their just are not enough of them in a squad is the issue. Then you can only get so many squads (6 max) If you could field platoons of vets that would be one thing, you can't though. So a couple 4+ stealth units aren't going to do much except add up in points. Buy them a transport and now your wasting the cloaks for the most part. I think if you want to go for linebreaker and backfield disruption you had better take Scions, they are fairly priced and come in platoons this edition.

For SM allies I think you should take as much advantage of their CT as possible. Take a CM or captain and then a techmarine and forget the priests in your blobs. Now pick WS to hit and run with your blobs or RG to scout or outflank blobs.

 Red Corsair wrote:
@Ailaros- Terminators are useless. They are the worst example you could use IMO. Terminators get better the MORE expensive their opponent gets generally. They are also grossly over priced in this edition.

 daedalus wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
@Ailaros- Terminators are useless. They are the worst example you could use IMO. Terminators get better the MORE expensive their opponent gets generally. They are also grossly over priced in this edition.

Whats the confusion?