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In terms of tactics, from what I have fought I know that bringing Inquisition into play with AM is very powerful, just add Prescience to everything from inquisitors and psykers and cast onto barrage weapons and tanks as well as big blobs of infantry, this combined with orders is very powerful

Well that may change in a couple of weeks. I don't think Prescience is going to survive 7th edition so , yeah its gonna suck.

 Leth wrote:
Both negates the point of the commissar. If you are really worried about precision shots I would just hide him outside of LOS so they cant be allocated to him anyway.

Comissar is an easy challenge caddy because he's only one wound to throw away, and you're still fearless because priest.

Unit sergent is a better challenge caddy since when he dies nothing really happens.

I am not saying the priest is bad. I just feel that most of the time it is beneficial to be able to go to ground.

 Leth wrote:
Unit sergent is a better challenge caddy since when he dies nothing really happens.

I am not saying the priest is bad. I just feel that most of the time it is beneficial to be able to go to ground.

Because not everyone and their mum is packing ignores cover?

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Unit sergent is a better challenge caddy since when he dies nothing really happens.

I am not saying the priest is bad. I just feel that most of the time it is beneficial to be able to go to ground.

Because not everyone and their mum is packing ignores cover?

Not really its just 1-2 riptides or one of a wave serpents guns.

Most armies dont have that much.

I just played a game. PASK IS A MURDERER.

He wiped out a 7 man plague marine squad in one volley with a punisher cannon! Coupled with an executioner as a back up tank, thats a really powerful and tough warlord. Ignores cover on a vet squad with plasma and lascannon is really nice. Took out a squad of 3 nurgle flies in one volley. One vendetta drew just enough fire to be worth its points, but I think to be most competitive you have to be running at least ! vendetta and 1 barebones valk with a vet squad w/ 3 meltas inside.

Yeah I had a Pask Punisher take out an Exorcist tank (AV13) and that is with me forgetting I can re-roll armor pen. Putting my executioner in with pask saved 5 get's hots over the course of the game as well. Big investment for a chance of a big payoff.

I've had great luck with blobs and conscripts my last two games. I'm quite happy I tried it out as I hated having to use vets in chimeras. I don't think I'll go back to straken assaulty blobs but more defensive protecting my tanks.

Have we figured out how we're going to deal with Eldar yet?

Played last night. Dealing with as many wave serpents as I have chimeras is... unfun.

How many wave serpents is that?

In that case, it was 5.

Wave serpents can and should beat chimeras for the same number. They are at least twice as expensive. However IG have the Bane of Wave Serpents which is a Crap ton of autocannons that we can then give tank hunter.

Also things like the Leman Russ varients will destroy a Wave Serpent army. Remember when they fire their shields they can be penned reliably. If they are not firing their shields their offensive power is cut in more than half. Use that to your advantage. Even if you dont kill them you are forcing them to do nothing(since they cant hurt the russes.)

Pask in a vanquisher with a lascannon and a sidekick Vanqusher with a lascannon will mess up a wave serpent every turn and if their shield is down its probably gonna blow.

 Leth wrote:
Wave serpents can and should beat chimeras for the same number. They are at least twice as expensive. However IG have the Bane of Wave Serpents which is a Crap ton of autocannons that we can then give tank hunter.

That works in a vacuum. What you forget is that you're (in theory) buying them as an accessory to what is inside them, not the other way around. The chimera with meltavets and carapace armor costs almost as much as the wave serpent with 5 dire avengers. Unless you're going deliberately cheap with the contents of your Chimera, an Eldar player can spam almost as many Serpents as you have Chimeras, at least, as far as points is concerned.

Also, where are you getting these autocannons from? Not Hydras or foot guard I hope.

Also things like the Leman Russ varients will destroy a Wave Serpent army. Remember when they fire their shields they can be penned reliably. If they are not firing their shields their offensive power is cut in more than half. Use that to your advantage. Even if you dont kill them you are forcing them to do nothing(since they cant hurt the russes.)

Pask in a vanquisher with a lascannon and a sidekick Vanqusher with a lascannon will mess up a wave serpent every turn and if their shield is down its probably gonna blow.

This i can agree with. I brought a regular punisher and a eradicator last game and it wasn't enough, but there wasn't much they could do to them. I think i need a vanquisher too. Pask may join along as well.

Yes if you include the contents then they will be the same price, but a striaght wave serpent to Chimera fight a wave serpent is nearly twice the points, so should be much more effective.
However an infantry squad inside a chimera with autocannon and grenade launcher is about the same points as a wave serpent.

Also yes I was talking about heavy weapons in blob guard units behind an aegis. Backed up with things like vanquishers and other leman russ variants if he fires his shield o no 20 or so guardsman died. Now everything gets to fire and will get a significant number of hull points off even through cover saves. Most likely he will not risk firing is shields meaning you have won half the battle.

Add in a unit or two of scions with meltas to make sure he keeps those shields up and you will wipe him off the table while still having a decent all comers force.

Here is a quick 1850 I threw together as an example

Pask in Vanquisher Camo Netting with lascannon - Warlord
Vanquisher with Lascannon

Priest
3x Primaris, two level 2, one level 1

Tempestus Platoon
Cmd Squad with 4 melta
5 man squad with 2 melta

Infantry platoon 1
3x infantry squad Autocannon Grenade
cmd squad - Nothing

Infantry Platoon two
3x infantry squad Autocannon
cmd squad - Nothing

Twox executioner with plasma sponsons

2x wyvern

Aegis with quadgun.

Good anti elite/anti infantry coverage. Lots of divination and prescience coverage as well.

Edit: If you want to be SUPER dickish, take a skyshield instead of a aegis and throw the Leman Russes and wyverns up there. 4+ saves for EVERYONE

That's actually kind of interesting.

I assume you would deep strike the temptestus?

Yep, tempestus are there to be deep struck in and threaten whatever.

The cmd squad can throw an order on themselves such as monster/tank hunter or ignore cover if they are close enough. Thats a solid dead wave serpent right there even with shields up.

Naturally that is not the best list, I could probably finagle and move some points around to make it better but just an example that I think would do well against the current meta right now.

If you want to run INQ allies then drop two primaris psykers and the priest and bring in coteaz and a level one xenos with book, grenade and servo skull.

So you have two level twos and a level 1 and now both of your blobs are stubborn leadership 10.

This is what I came up with.


Mostly wanted an excuse to try out Straken. I don't think I like it though. Straken's squad might turn into a big plasma squad, the two hellhounds might turn into another tank, and then the Vanquisher gets bumped up to having Pask on board.

Another unit that is good against eldar tanks is the pask plasmacutioner due to it's reroll failed armour pen and the small blasts it will almost always strip ~2 HP and explodes the serpent almost 50% the time (that figure includes the 5+ jink).

I actually much prefer the lascannons in a blob with ignore cover and prescience to take down a serpent. They deal out (LC vs AC) 2.5 vs 2.7 HP but if the serpent shield is fired the lascannons also have a ~50% chance to explode the serpent. This gives my opponent the justification to not fire the shield...which is a mistake as he will reduce his offense output by 2/3 in most cases. If the opponent does fire the shield I have a better chance of taking out the tank in a single turn this way. Additionally if the opponent takes holo fields or has night fighting, ruins, etc. then I have a much better chance to kill it with ignore cover and lascannons than I would with the autocannons.

DS melta units are great for limiting serpents so they cannot shoot their shield for a turn and will regret moving forward. They are not an answer in themselves but they are a great piece in the puzzle. Another unit which can be brutal is a CCS suicide plasma squad dropping from a vendetta. Within 12" one of these is murder to AV12 and AV10 is a sure fire kill.

Finally if you planned to move forward anyways and you don't mind the limited range the pask punisher is of course excellent at killing anything. You can actually abuse the squadron rules by pointing a tank to front and the two sides each and using spacing so only AV14 can be hit.

Lascannons are better when their shield is down and with ignore cover. Autocannons are better when its up IMO and with tank hunter.

But we have a lot of tactical options right? That is one of the things I love about the guard book right now is that turn to turn you have a mix of options that changes up effectiveness

Yeah, so many options. I think we will see guard win a big name tournement soon enough. Any guesses on the list? I think big blobs and cheap Valkyries.

 Leth wrote:
Lascannons are better when their shield is down and with ignore cover. Autocannons are better when its up IMO and with tank hunter.

But we have a lot of tactical options right? That is one of the things I love about the guard book right now is that turn to turn you have a mix of options that changes up effectiveness

Definitely there are a wide variety of options in the new dex. I have been pretty happy with it because of this.

The thing about LC vs AC is that the only time that the AC is better is when the serpents have their shields up and a 5+ or worse cover save (AC 2.8 HP vs LC 2.5 HP) whereas when the shield is lowered and/or the cover is 4+ or better the LC is better (AC+tank hunter 2.1 HP, AC+ignore cover 2.5 HP vs LC 2.5 HP). There are of course other considerations so either option could be better depending on the list but against waveserpents, wraithknights, and even warp spiders (lol) which are the units to be feared in a serpent spam type list. (btw I would recommend a 5 IS w/ lascannons, inquisitor or primaris, and yarrick for this all behind an ADL w/ quadd gun or icarus, depending on the HWTs you chose)

A wave serpent is only a 25 points cheaper than a lascannon vanquisher.

I know which of the two will win that fight.

I also like autocannons because they double as decent anti flier in my list which is really helpful. Another reason is those lascannons add up pretty quick

Autocannons are no better than any other weapon against fliers. The reduction to snap shot sinks all boats equally. A lascannon is exactly the same amount better than the autocannon at BS 1 as it is at BS3.

One quad gun = 9 autocannons and even it is merely ok. I don't see the point of autocannons except maybe when you can guarantee tank hunter.

I like autocannons because A. they are significantly cheaper and B. They have more shots and a higher max threshold than lascannons as well as more shots will smooth out the probability curve.

Its sort of like the two-shot versus twin-linked arguement as it were.

A smoother curve? The transition from 1 to 2 doesn't bring you from the world of small numbers to the world of large numbers. They are cheaper? Sure, but it's scarcely noticeable once you include carrier costs. Higher max threshold? Sure, but why not ally marines to shoot bolters, then? After all, they could cause TWENTY vehicle explosion results on a single target in a single volley if the dice roll right.

And it's not like the difference between two shots and twin-linked. That's a completely different statistics problem. It would be like saying autocannons are better than lascannons because AV14 is much more reliable than AV12.

In any case, the arguments you just made should be proof in your eyes that the heavy bolter is superior to the autocannon.

 Leth wrote:
Yes if you include the contents then they will be the same price, but a striaght wave serpent to Chimera fight a wave serpent is nearly twice the points, so should be much more effective.
However an infantry squad inside a chimera with autocannon and grenade launcher is about the same points as a wave serpent.

Also yes I was talking about heavy weapons in blob guard units behind an aegis. Backed up with things like vanquishers and other leman russ variants if he fires his shield o no 20 or so guardsman died. Now everything gets to fire and will get a significant number of hull points off even through cover saves. Most likely he will not risk firing is shields meaning you have won half the battle.

Add in a unit or two of scions with meltas to make sure he keeps those shields up and you will wipe him off the table while still having a decent all comers force.

Here is a quick 1850 I threw together as an example

Pask in Vanquisher Camo Netting with lascannon - Warlord
Vanquisher with Lascannon

Priest
3x Primaris, two level 2, one level 1

Tempestus Platoon
Cmd Squad with 4 melta
5 man squad with 2 melta

Infantry platoon 1
3x infantry squad Autocannon Grenade
cmd squad - Nothing

Infantry Platoon two
3x infantry squad Autocannon
cmd squad - Nothing

Twox executioner with plasma sponsons

2x wyvern

Aegis with quadgun.

Good anti elite/anti infantry coverage. Lots of divination and prescience coverage as well.

Edit: If you want to be SUPER dickish, take a skyshield instead of a aegis and throw the Leman Russes and wyverns up there. 4+ saves for EVERYONE

I like this list, but I would change one thing in particular - you have no offensive scoring to take midfield/their backfield. Cypher, a 3 IS Platoon (+ PCS) and 3 meltaguns (one per IS) runs you 400 points, which I'd get by scrapping the Wyverns, the Scions and the level 2 upgrades on the Primaris Psykers.

Wyverns aren't that important honestly and having a 30 man super-blob running around in your enemy's lines is good anti-infantry, you've got still got melta and the only reason you take PP's is for prescience, the full BS overwatch power isn't always that useful, you already have ignores cover with orders and they should be in cover - if he's dumb enough to lower shields to kill Guardsmen meatshields, I'm happy.

Over 6-8 squads it adds up pretty quick. thats 12 shots instead of 6. over the course of the game and many others it should provide more reliable results. It also can hit twice compared to a lascannon only ever hitting once. My point with the twinlinking thing was saying that two shots is always better than one twin-linked shots, but I didnt elaborate because I was on my phone.

As to your point about heavy bolters in certain situations it is better, however the number of situations where it isnt outweighs it. Lascannon is better in certain situations, autocannons are better in others. Lascannons are good at going for explosions, Autocannons are good at getting those hullpoints.

With tank hunter

Autocannon gets .56 hullpoints against armor 12 and 5% chance of destroyed
Lascannon gets .44 hull points and 6.25% chance of destroyed

Unbuffed
Autocannon .33 2.8% destroyed
LAscannon .33 4.2%

Against armor 11 autocannon gets better, against armor 13+ lascannon is better.

We've been over the math on autocannons vs. lascannons a million times over the years. The lascannons always win.

Against AV11, 3 lascannons deal 1.26 HP with a 1 in 3 chance of wrecking the vehicle outright, compared to 3 autocannon's 1.5 HP with a 1 in 6 chance to wreck the vehicle outright. A tiny loss of average hull points for twice as likely to explode the vehicle (and bringing it to good enough odds you'll actually have it happen). The lascannon is better here.

Which leaves the autocannon better against AV10, and against a bunch of stuff that neither weapon is good against (like GEq, for example), while the lascannon is better against AV12, AV13, AV14, TEq, MEq, and all MCs.

Which means, now as always, the autocannon is a niche weapon designed only to hunt down light vehicles, while the lascannon kills whatever it points at.