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This may be an insane thought but could 40k have almost reached its zenith?

Besides poorly worded rules and imbalances what can GW really add to the game?

We all know that a Battle Barge (or an escort ship) would be larger then Warhammer World so I cannot dream of Spaceships in 40k scale getting implemented.

40k now has Titans, Super Heavies, Flyers, Skirmish mode and Massive Apocalypse games.
We have games that can be run as Campaigns, Base defense (Stronghold Assault), Planetstrikes and semi competitive Tournaments.

The new format for Games-workshop.com is like a catalogue now and maybe that is what is intended.

I actually want to applaud GW for making a wargame and not just a skirmish game for myself, and I am sure some others, for over 25 years.
Not many companies have achieved that in the same amount of time.


I also want to address a lot of the complaints I have been reading lately..


-Dert

5th edition was the zenith really for 40k IMO. It had the most balance and a release schedule that you could actually be excited for your new dex as it was probably pretty good.

Now we have half baked dexes that suck ass and are only fixed by dataslates. Titan rules have no place in 40k.



If you want to talk about the zenith of the 40k gaming universe in general, that happened around 3rd edition. 3rd, unlike 2nd, was actually playable, and you had great support for specialist games like Space Marine (epic), Necromunda, Mordheim, Space Hulk, BFG, etc.



GW should be able to generate revenue through codex creep alone. I don't know about you, but I've built new armies in recent years despite having played Space Marines for 10+ years. I was actually planning a Necron army until the new codex completely changed the playstyle, and I've been toying with doing a Nids army for a while. In that case, they got hosed pretty badly in the new dex so...yeah. They shouldn't have to invalidate and restrict peoples' play styles (i.e., the new IG book) in order to sell gak models like the Taurox, and gak units like the Hydra and Wyvern.

 DerT84 wrote:

Besides poorly worded rules and imbalances what can GW really add to the game?

Those are the things that they can do to add to the game. I mean, those aren't insignificant issues.

It'd also help to have the game be geared towards the size its moving towards; currently its a skirmish based ruleset but the FoC and other supplements keep pushing it to a company level game, where the rules become tedious and burdensome.

Also, GW can still make money as a company by producing other games. A crazy thought, but there it is.

I would say the addition of super heavies and flyers have taken the game further from the zenith. More does not equal better. I would prefer a tighter rule set for smaller games, with more options for the basic troops ( You know, so tactical squads were actually relevant)

Peaked? Let me tell you something. 40k hasn't even begun to peak. And when it does peak, you'll know. Because it's going to peak so hard, that everybody in Philadelphia will feel it.

I love these topics (not). Been doing 40k since it started, and year after year after year, "is gw dead" ... "is 40k over" ....

hey thread, see you again in 2015, 2016, 2017, ...........

 krazynadechukr wrote:
I love these topics (not). Been doing 40k since it started, and year after year after year, "is gw dead" ... "is 40k over" ....

hey thread, see you again in 2015, 2016, 2017, ...........

Complaining about complaining. Seen this all before.

Yup, we're doomed. And if we're not doomed now, then just keep moving the prediction forward in time, and you'll seem just as smart after a dozen failed predictions as after you made this first one.

Also, I don't think GW needs to keep coming out with bigger and bigger miniatures to be able to grow. That's much more of a recent thing they've been doing now that technology has unlocked the ability than something that they've been relying on for the past 25 years.

GW can always get better. Now, if they actually manage to do so is a different story, but I think it's far too soon to start claiming that it's all basically downhill from here.

Unless your Kroothawk. He gets a free pass because Germans are basically a nation of nihilists.

You can find the answer here.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/589218.page

And here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/588732.page

And here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/589074.page

"To those complaining about price hikes, here is something to consider..
If GW had to spend $5 to make a $10 miniature and another company sold a similar miniature (not necessary better) to use in GW games for $7, GW will most likely lose $5.
To make up that lost they have to increase the price to make for every unsold miniature. There are a lot of other expenses so dropping the price is not an option especially for a global company."

The solution to competition is to compete, not raise prices and hope people don't buy from your competitors whose prices you just made look a lot better thanks to your price hike. That's basic economics. Games Workshop is so huge that it has the resources and low overhead to out-compete anyone in the business if they actually tried.

While it's nice to say the solution is to compete, actually being able to make the right decisions and handle loss of market share without raising prices seems to beyond the current board of directors.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:
I love these topics (not). Been doing 40k since it started, and year after year after year, "is gw dead" ... "is 40k over" ....

hey thread, see you again in 2015, 2016, 2017, ...........

Complaining about complaining. Seen this all before.

If there's one thing I have to complain about, it's people complaining about people complaining about people complaining about GW.


Back on topic, why don't we discuss this rationally and get some use out of the forum?

For example, someone said they couldn't see spaceships being implemented in 40K because they are too large. (Even a Manta would cover half the table.)

I think that is correct, though I also think flyers are too fast, artillery is too long ranged, and super weapons are too powerful, to be implemented and all of that has been.

Thus I could certainly see river and sea ships being implemented. I have often thought of getting a suitable scale tuna boat or a Pibber to convert for 40K. After all, it's just a very large vehicle, with a slow movement rate, and could easily use the same rules.

http://www.revell.com/germany/ships/80-5122.html#.U0gK_eZdWII

Revell Swift Boat Kit in 1/48 scale.

Would that be a good addition to the game?

I agree with Gorilla - i'd like a skirmish set of rules for regular armies. A better one than kill team.

Necromunda for real warbands or something. I loved the warband rules from the old slaves to darkness and the lost and the damned.

Oh, and GW's overhead is low but most of their profits go to operating expenses, which I'm willing to bet I includes brick and mortar stores, something their main competition does not have.

IMO, Games Workshop reached its peak in the 90's during 2nd edition. But this is because I am unusual, and my style as a wargamer is not common.

I like smaller battles, with only one or two vehicles tops. I liked their old models that had a lot of weird character, and I appreciate armies that were very customizable. I liked being able to tool my general up with a bunch of weird wargear, and destroy pieces of scenery with vortex grenades.

Based on what I liked, second edition was the best.

There is still space to expand.

For example Tempestus Scions is good example. Despite rant from people who didnt saw the book itself and probably would not, its really good expansion. From one, mediocre, at best, unit they made solid concept with a lot of potential. Also, and please, dont forget it, many players are in WH40K for fluff and Tempestus codex is from the fluff perspective great. Really great, full of good really short stories, they painted WH40K universe in grimdark I havent seen a long time.

From clearly hobbyist POV, Scions are (for me) beutiful models, but more important are Knights. Like really, this is wonderful stuff just to build, paint, make diorama, or kitbash.

Crimson Slaughter? Didnt read it yet, but my mate really likes it. From rules and fluff reasons.

This is just three IMO big, effective adds in three months and gives the game so much flavour. Its not always hit from GW (LotD was disappointment), but for me it is great attitude and perspective for the future.

Of course, I wouldnt be angry if GW moved with the fluff forward...just few years, but not gonna happen

Peak? I dont think so, IMO we have seen beginning of the new era (OK, this word sucks in the context...lets say "phase"), with more content produced and inclination to full plastic, more detailed models. Just look at Scions and Taurox. You dont have to like the aestethics, but the detail is insane in comparison to my older IG models. So, there is still plenty of space to grow and transform.

As already said, I also think that 3rd edition was the best one. It was really fun to play. After this, things got more and more involved.

Now we have reached another peak, the rule set combined with the new (sub-)codices, supplements, and dataslates make the game rather complicated.

Reached its peak in 2004 we've been on a downward slide since then, editions get worse, there is no balance and price gouging goes on with each new release.

£21 for five guardsmen is a joke.

hobojebus wrote:
Reached its peak in 2004 we've been on a downward slide since then, editions get worse, there is no balance and price gouging goes on with each new release.

£21 for five guardsmen is a joke.

Now you need to plan your army carefully.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
. 3rd, unlike 2nd, was actually playable, and you had great support for specialist games like Space Marine (epic), Necromunda, Mordheim, Space Hulk, BFG, etc.

really? i actually loved 2nd edition and 3rd edition was a huge letdown for me(especially with the half assed space wolves white dwarf codex, followed by the half assed space wolves codex.

The specialist games on the other hand really had awesome support, unlike the boxed versions of specialist games( im looking at the wannabe man o war game) we get today.

 wuestenfux wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Reached its peak in 2004 we've been on a downward slide since then, editions get worse, there is no balance and price gouging goes on with each new release.

£21 for five guardsmen is a joke.

Now you need to plan your army carefully.

THIS!!!

Armies need planning waaaaaay in advance to purchasing these days.

Try playing on Vassal to playtest your armies before buying. Worked for me in the past.

I think the zenith for GW was with the Lord of the Rings hype. They probably made a mountain of cash that would make Smaug jealous.

Puscifer wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Reached its peak in 2004 we've been on a downward slide since then, editions get worse, there is no balance and price gouging goes on with each new release.

£21 for five guardsmen is a joke.

Now you need to plan your army carefully.

THIS!!!

Armies need planning waaaaaay in advance to purchasing these days.

Try playing on Vassal to playtest your armies before buying. Worked for me in the past.

"Planning" your army is essentially a short term solution for saving money, because the codices are written in a way to MAKE you buy more models. Just ask the Trygon I bought over a couple of Carnifexes when the last 'nid codex came out.

GW will do everything they can to make you not be able to avoid the price hikes.

slowthar wrote:GW will do everything they can to make you not be able to avoid the price hikes.

Silence, brother! It is not for you to give away secrets to the mundane and unlearned!

The only reason why GW ever makes changes in a codex is to make the good bad, and the bad good to force people to buy new minis. That's why a unit that's good in one version of a codex has never, ever been good in another version of the codex, and it's why units that are bad in one codex are never, ever bad in any other version of the codex.

I know I'm looking forward to playing my all-ratling-and-rough-rider guard army soon!

Another great thread about how GW is doing, said no one ever.

GW reached its peak in the 2004ish period. Been a very bad decline since then. Since 2009ish, the state of GW has become intolerable to the point of being a miserable experience to deal with and the games themselves being virtually unplayable.

 Seb wrote:
I agree with Gorilla - i'd like a skirmish set of rules for regular armies. A better one than kill team.

Necromunda for real warbands or something. I loved the warband rules from the old slaves to darkness and the lost and the damned.

I could get behind a planet isolated from all others due to a cosmic event as the stage for a new 40k skirmish game.

This is really two questions:

40k reached its peak during 3rd edition, personally i prefer 2nd, but there is no arguing that 3rd had greater army and model choice, and a streamlined ruleset saw a net increase in player base.

As for GW it reached its peak in the mid 90s during 40k 2nd, fantasy 4/5th, epic 2nd/3rd, necromunda, WHQ, gorkamorka, Man'o'War, Mordheim, BFG, Blood bowl, and thats just the games. Add in a content rich WD with free games, minis, card bits and alike. Mail Order (get any random bit you want in any quantity), DEALS! 3 for 2 at store openings/reopenings. Mail order army deals, deals that helped you build an army bit by bit (does anyone remember the little collecting cards? buy 5 specific mins/units and then get one free!).

All these things spoke of a company that knew why it was there, to make good games and to encourage people into the hobby and then to explore the hobby to find the right area for you.
There are lots of people who started with GW by playing WHQ, Blood bowl and necromunda, all games with a comparatively low buy in price. How much does it cost to get into the hobby now? Far too much. Where is the easy route in, which then draws you in further? 40k in particular has one of the most unique and evocative settings of any miniature wargame (Battletech universe would be up there too), a low cost entry point would get newcomers involved, and then the setting a veteran gamers could encourage them further.

Really difficult not to rant in threads like this isnt it ?!

I'm not sure if I could possibly agree with the above post any more than I do right now.

I have been with GW since the mid-to-late 90's, and it's like I am looking at something I wrote!

Back in the days around 2000, GW wanted us to buy their stuff and marketed appropriately. Now, they seem to think that they deserve for us to buy their stuff, and that we should bow down and thank them for the priveledge.