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A friend and I are discussing the new guard orders, mainly Take Aim as we have a disagreement in it's function.
My friend thinks that the Precision Shot special rule means they still only get to choose their target on a 6, but I disagree because the Precision Shot ability doesn't say that.
In the BRB Precision Shot is listed as:
(please note that since I cannot make text bold the bold text in the BRB will be caps....this is from page 63)
If any of your character's shots roll 6 To Hit, the are Precision Shots. WOUNDS FROM PRECISION SHOTS ARE ALLOCATED AGAINST A MODEL (OR MODELS) OF YOUR CHOICE IN THE TARGET UNIT, as long as it is in range, RATHER THAN FOLLOWING THE NORMAL RULES FOR WOUND ALLOCATION.
As a sort of precedence for the precision shot special rule being independent from the 6 to hit, the guard relic bolt pistol has the Precision Shot rule and if only characters can take it that'd be fairly redundant.
Thoughts? Also when looking at the codex rules summary at the back of the epub, it is conspicuously missing the underlined line shown above...

And, to be fair, simply saying that "if it was always a precision shot that'd be OP" isn't an argument considering that one of the orders went from forced cover rerolls to ignoring it.

Please help me with this. Thanks in adavance...

Per the e codex you do not need a 6. Precision shot is a auto allocate with no six needed. (Characters rolling to hit 6 are granted this rule.)

The ipad ebook has hyperlinked rules summaries. When you click on precision shot the rule reads that if a character rolls a six you can allocate the hit. This is clearly going to be part of an FAQ or updated Rulebook at some point because right now rules as written this rule does nothing as all characters have this rule anyway and guardsmen are not characters.

Rules as intended if you roll a six then you allocate the hit.

So no take aim doesn't turn a blob of guardsmen into vindicare assassins.

I don't know man.



I mean, there's this.

Not to mention, there's that bolt pistol that causes precision shots. The one that can only be given to characters who already have precision shots.

Smitty, if that is the summary from the digital version, it seem to conclusively define that a single order can turn a blob of Guardsmen into Vindicare Assassins. I am excited

It is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My take on this is, that special pistol makes the Lord Commissar pick who he chooses without rolling. "Take Aim!" is the officer telling all of those fresh faced conscripts "shoot the big scary guy!"

Or there is this which is what comes up when you click on Take Aim specifically on the iBook.

Yeah, I definitely smell FAQ for this one.

That is, when GW gets around to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For now, I'm going to do what my codex tells me. It'll only be 10 veterans doing it as opposed to 50 conscripts...how bad could it hurt?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm just wondering though, if that's how Precision Shot works, then what is the point of giving that one Bolt Pistol precision shot if the Lord Commissar can do it anyways?

Rob451 wrote:
Or there is this which is what comes up when you click on Take Aim specifically on the iBook.

This seems to be a badly made tooltip. It is just copied straight from the main rulebook, and does not take the context of the order in to account at all. It mentions characters when that is not the point of the order. I don't know if it can be considered definitive.

As for myself, the "roll 6s" ruling seems the most balanced. Even with that it is a reasonably powerful order. If it is ruled as "all hits" then it is too powerful in my eyes. I do know that everyone who plays as or against AM should discuss this order before the game, so you are at least on the same page as your opponent. Trying to argue this point during a game is a recipe for a bad time.

 Trickstick wrote:
I do know that everyone who plays as or against AM should discuss this order before the game, so you are at least on the same page as your opponent. Trying to argue this point during a game is a recipe for a bad time.

This is the truth.

 Trickstick wrote:

Rob451 wrote:
Or there is this which is what comes up when you click on Take Aim specifically on the iBook.

This seems to be a badly made tooltip. It is just copied straight from the main rulebook, and does not take the context of the order in to account at all. It mentions characters when that is not the point of the order. I don't know if it can be considered definitive.

As for myself, the "roll 6s" ruling seems the most balanced. Even with that it is a reasonably powerful order. If it is ruled as "all hits" then it is too powerful in my eyes. I do know that everyone who plays as or against AM should discuss this order before the game, so you are at least on the same page as your opponent. Trying to argue this point during a game is a recipe for a bad time.

Especially when you considering the amount of access to Divination in the book, you'd have to be high to think they intended a blob squad picking out every one of its wounds.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

Rob451 wrote:
Or there is this which is what comes up when you click on Take Aim specifically on the iBook.

This seems to be a badly made tooltip. It is just copied straight from the main rulebook, and does not take the context of the order in to account at all. It mentions characters when that is not the point of the order. I don't know if it can be considered definitive.

As for myself, the "roll 6s" ruling seems the most balanced. Even with that it is a reasonably powerful order. If it is ruled as "all hits" then it is too powerful in my eyes. I do know that everyone who plays as or against AM should discuss this order before the game, so you are at least on the same page as your opponent. Trying to argue this point during a game is a recipe for a bad time.

Especially when you considering the amount of access to Divination in the book, you'd have to be high to think they intended a blob squad picking out every one of its wounds.

RAW I must be smoking something because that's exactly what it says...

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
RAW I must be smoking something because that's exactly what it says...

Well if you read it exactly, "all models in the ordered unit have the Precision Shot special rule". Precision shot isn't a special rule, so it breaks. The closest thing is the "precision shots" heading on page 63. Now, if the order stated that "all models shots are precision shots" then they would not need to roll 6s, as precision shots are defined. They are not a "special rule" though, any more than a hit or wound is.

RAI it is easiest to conclude that by "precision shot special rule" they mean the mechanic that applies to characters. I will freely admit it is an ambiguous order though, and could do with an FAQ. I do think it would come down on the roll 6s side though.

Precision shot is a special rule that is given to characters, that rule states that rolls of 6 are allocated by the characters controller(a "Precision Shot" effect).

when the rule is given to non-characters it either does nothing, or more likely makes rolls of 6 to hit get allocated by the bearer of the rule's controller.

Take Aim very specifically give the models in the unit the special rule. Thus the models still need to roll a 6 to hit in order for them to cause "Precision Shot" effects.

The glossary is not the source of the special rule and is wrong, the special rule is found in the BRB on page 63

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Precision shot is a special rule that is given to characters, that rule states that rolls of 6 are allocated by the characters controller(a "Precision Shot" effect).

when the rule is given to non-characters it either does nothing, or more likely makes rolls of 6 to hit get allocated by the bearer of the rule's controller.

Take Aim very specifically give the models in the unit the special rule. Thus the models still need to roll a 6 to hit in order for them to cause "Precision Shot" effects.

The glossary is not the source of the special rule and is wrong, the special rule is found in the BRB on page 63

HIWPI, Rolls of 6 are precision shots. That's how it is for a BS5 captain, that's how it is for a BS2 conscript who's aiming for once.

I don't know the exact wording on the Take Aim order, but it sounds a lot like the sharpshot rule for Illic and his pathfinders.

Sharpshot: Shots fired by models with this special rule (excluding snap shots) are always percision shots.

By a lot of peoples opinions, he would still need 6's to allocated the wound meaning that he has the ability from 3 different sources, being a character, having a sniper rifle, and the sharpshot rule which none of would stack and all require 6's. I think not, but like I said I don't know the wording on Take Aim and could be completly off base, just thought I'd put in my 2 cents

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Precision shot is a special rule that is given to characters, that rule states that rolls of 6 are allocated by the characters controller(a "Precision Shot" effect).

when the rule is given to non-characters it either does nothing, or more likely makes rolls of 6 to hit get allocated by the bearer of the rule's controller.

Take Aim very specifically give the models in the unit the special rule. Thus the models still need to roll a 6 to hit in order for them to cause "Precision Shot" effects.

The glossary is not the source of the special rule and is wrong, the special rule is found in the BRB on page 63

I would add precedence of Codex Glossaries being wrong as I play Adepta Sororitas, and the Glossary gives Penitent engines T11, 11 Wounds and i10. I would not think anyone would actually let me play them that way, as they usually have Armour being vehicles, 11 11 10

I think the bolt pistol is the most important factor here.

well, 6's sounds more reasonable.... But I can see where the power-gamer type would see it as UBER SHOOTA DEATH AWSOME GUYS!

Bye bye enemy HQs. So are we all supposed to play Knights now or something? I blame you bastards and your screamerstars.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
I don't know the exact wording on the Take Aim order, but it sounds a lot like the sharpshot rule for Illic and his pathfinders.

Sharpshot: Shots fired by models with this special rule (excluding snap shots) are always percision shots.

By a lot of peoples opinions, he would still need 6's to allocated the wound meaning that he has the ability from 3 different sources, being a character, having a sniper rifle, and the sharpshot rule which none of would stack and all require 6's. I think not, but like I said I don't know the wording on Take Aim and could be completly off base, just thought I'd put in my 2 cents

This is the wording in the epub version:



The glossary wording does not replace the Precision Shot wording in the BRB

That wording is completely different than Illic's. That wording simply means you gets precision shots on 6's

order grants the unit precision shots. If they score a 6 to hit they can allocate the shot as per the rule for precision shots.

the section from the back that says "wounds from precision shots" if you note it says wounds from. Precision shots trigger off to hit rolls, if you roll a 6 you have made a precision shot, if you did not you have not made one. Therefore there is no issue with the first as you can only cause wounds from precision shots by first rolling a 6 to have a precision shot, then rolling a successful to wound roll.

I think its wish listing for those who think that every wound is automatically allocated to any model of their choosing.

Time will tell, but I'll bet that the digital copies will be updated to clarify that just like every other instance of precision shots, these apply to rolling a 6 for a hit roll. Nothing else.

Kel broke it down exactly as it is.

If you have the special rule precision shot, then on sixes you gain the precision shot effect.

The precision shot effect, not the rule, allows you to choose your target.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say the bolter mentioned makes "all shots precision shots."

That would mean all the shots from that bolter gain the precision shot effect, without the need for the precision shot special rule.

This rule is already as it is going to pick out practically every special weapon in a group they target. I can't believe some people seriously think they can do it with every single shot.

The RAW is clear. Characters and sniper rifles only get precision shots on a 6, Sergeant Telion always has precision shots. The order as written states all models make precision shots.

How would I play it? Only works on 6s

Yeah I'm looking at sergeant telion, and the otherwise-useless bolt pistol, both of which point towards all shots being allocated.

I feel this is a result of there being two things called Precision Shot.

a) The Special Rule "Precision Shot"
b) The Weapon Rule "Precision Shots"

In the same way that Strikedown reads as if it's only ever going to be applied to weapons we now have units that have it (Imperial Knight) and no clarification on exactly how that works (Does it make the Heavy Stubbers Strikedown or just the melee attacks?).

Anyway I think what has happened with these rules is that Precision Shot the Special Rule grants Precision Shots the Weapon Rule on a to hit of a 6. Precision Shots the weapon rule then lets you allocate the hit how you want.

I say this because of the subtle difference in language between:

(From Ilic Nightspears entry where there is no ambiguity)
"Sharpshot: Shots fired by models with this rule (excluding snapshots) are always Precision Shots"

and

"...all models in the ordered unit have the Precision Shot Special Rule."

I believe the Bolt Pistol is supposed to have the Weapon Rule of Precision Shots thus making every shot it fires allocated by the wielder while the Take Aim order grants the unit Precision Shots the special rule which grants them Precision Shots on a 6.

I suspect this ambiguity is a result of the people writing/laying out the codex not actually being game designers and thus not knowing the difference.

However in an argument of Rules as Written it depends on which type of Codex and rulebook you have. If you have the eBook then the only definition for Precision Shot in there is one that lets you allocate all of the hits. If you have the iBook then the only definition in there is one that grants Characters the ability to allocate hits on a to hit of a 6. If you have a paper Codex then you have to abide by the rule on page 63 of the BRB which is the same as the iBook and thus RAW doesn't grant the ability to anybody other than characters.

So right now those with the eBook codex can claim codex trumps BRB and have an overpowered ability while everybody else has an order that doesn't do anything at all. Clearly not RAI but it's RAW.

Rob451 wrote:
I feel this is a result of there being two things called Precision Shot.

a) The Special Rule "Precision Shot"
b) The Weapon Rule "Precision Shots"

In the same way that Strikedown reads as if it's only ever going to be applied to weapons we now have units that have it (Imperial Knight) and no clarification on exactly how that works (Does it make the Heavy Stubbers Strikedown or just the melee attacks?).

Anyway I think what has happened with these rules is that Precision Shot the Special Rule grants Precision Shots the Weapon Rule on a to hit of a 6. Precision Shots the weapon rule then lets you allocate the hit how you want.

I say this because of the subtle difference in language between:

(From Ilic Nightspears entry where there is no ambiguity)
"Sharpshot: Shots fired by models with this rule (excluding snapshots) are always Precision Shots"

and

"...all models in the ordered unit have the Precision Shot Special Rule."

I believe the Bolt Pistol is supposed to have the Weapon Rule of Precision Shots thus making every shot it fires allocated by the wielder while the Take Aim order grants the unit Precision Shots the special rule which grants them Precision Shots on a 6.

I suspect this ambiguity is a result of the people writing/laying out the codex not actually being game designers and thus not knowing the difference.

However in an argument of Rules as Written it depends on which type of Codex and rulebook you have. If you have the eBook then the only definition for Precision Shot in there is one that lets you allocate all of the hits. If you have the iBook then the only definition in there is one that grants Characters the ability to allocate hits on a to hit of a 6. If you have a paper Codex then you have to abide by the rule on page 63 of the BRB which is the same as the iBook and thus RAW doesn't grant the ability to anybody other than characters.

So right now those with the eBook codex can claim codex trumps BRB and have an overpowered ability while everybody else has an order that doesn't do anything at all. Clearly not RAI but it's RAW.

The sniper special rule grants non-character models precision shots on a 6. You're argument that you need to be a character to get precision shots is therefore invalid. The precision shot rule allows to to allocate wounds to specific models, characters and snipers get precision shots on a 6, as per the paper codex in front of me, guardsmen get it by passing an order. There is no conflict.

Even Telion's rule makes it clear. "All shooting HITS made by Telion are Precision shots." Note, that it says HITS not SHOTS. That is completely different than Take Aim, that says that all models have the Precision Shot rule, which only allows Precision shots on 6's

ItsPug wrote:

Rob451 wrote:
I feel this is a result of there being two things called Precision Shot.

a) The Special Rule "Precision Shot"
b) The Weapon Rule "Precision Shots"

In the same way that Strikedown reads as if it's only ever going to be applied to weapons we now have units that have it (Imperial Knight) and no clarification on exactly how that works (Does it make the Heavy Stubbers Strikedown or just the melee attacks?).

Anyway I think what has happened with these rules is that Precision Shot the Special Rule grants Precision Shots the Weapon Rule on a to hit of a 6. Precision Shots the weapon rule then lets you allocate the hit how you want.

I say this because of the subtle difference in language between:

(From Ilic Nightspears entry where there is no ambiguity)
"Sharpshot: Shots fired by models with this rule (excluding snapshots) are always Precision Shots"

and

"...all models in the ordered unit have the Precision Shot Special Rule."

I believe the Bolt Pistol is supposed to have the Weapon Rule of Precision Shots thus making every shot it fires allocated by the wielder while the Take Aim order grants the unit Precision Shots the special rule which grants them Precision Shots on a 6.

I suspect this ambiguity is a result of the people writing/laying out the codex not actually being game designers and thus not knowing the difference.

However in an argument of Rules as Written it depends on which type of Codex and rulebook you have. If you have the eBook then the only definition for Precision Shot in there is one that lets you allocate all of the hits. If you have the iBook then the only definition in there is one that grants Characters the ability to allocate hits on a to hit of a 6. If you have a paper Codex then you have to abide by the rule on page 63 of the BRB which is the same as the iBook and thus RAW doesn't grant the ability to anybody other than characters.

So right now those with the eBook codex can claim codex trumps BRB and have an overpowered ability while everybody else has an order that doesn't do anything at all. Clearly not RAI but it's RAW.

The sniper special rule grants non-character models precision shots on a 6. You're argument that you need to be a character to get precision shots is therefore invalid. The precision shot rule allows to to allocate wounds to specific models, characters and snipers get precision shots on a 6, as per the paper codex in front of me, guardsmen get it by passing an order. There is no conflict.

Again the distinction between a special Rule called Precision Shot and a Weapon Effect called Precision Shots. Sniper grants the rule on page 63 on a to-hit of a 6 which RAW then would only work for Characters because the rule on that page states that Characters can use it and nobody else.

I'm not saying it makes sense and it's not how I play it but it's RAW.

Were I at a tournament and somebody tried to use your interpretation of the rule I would be calling over a TO straight away because there is no RAW answer that actually allows the rule to work at all.

RAW I would argue that Pathfinders also cannot allocate their shots because they are not characters but again I do not play it that way as there is a semantic difference between saying all shots are Precision Shots (The concept of allocating wounds by the firing model) and that models have the Precision Shot Special Rule (A rule that Characters have on Page 63 of the rule book that grants them a Precision Shot on a to hit of a 6).

Precision Shot: A shot that is allocated by the firing model.
Precision Shot Special Rule: Gain Precision Shots on a roll of a 6.

It's an issue where the effect that results from a rule is named the same as the rule that grants it.